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It went world wide today. With in a month it went nationwide. There are thousands of protestors and 10 to hundreds of people occupying though out weekdays in every city. For every protestor there is at least one other that won't or can't protest for some reason and the size of meetings are growing.
People have been disenfranchised for too long, their taking back their government.
If this stops, it means problems went away. Till then, it will continue to grow.
you make a great argument about how awfull people are. we have thousands of communistic leiberals sending death threaths to anyone they disagree with. but will the meidia tell you any of this? nooo they would rather tall you about how racist a black man is because he voted against a bill.
The Tea Party may have a "good cause" - personally, I don't think they do, but hey - but their supporters are violent, mean-spirited people, and their means of getting what they want are outdated and barbaric.
how can you say that about the tea party when its the lieberals who send death threats to any polotition who decides not to tax the rich and hand out free money to all the lazy dumbasses
The major revolutions in the past started the same way Occupy Wall Street did. The only difference, is that today, we have technology, and communication. More people are informed. My teacher tells me, "The government's greatest weakness is an informed public." The government's corruption is being exposed. You can't necessarily say that you enjoy this economic struggle we're going through right now. This uneven distribution of wealth is very ridiculous, and people are out there because they want to make change. It's better than doing nothing and sitting at home criticizing at people who are trying. We are the people. The government's duty is to make sure our rights are being protected, according to John Locke's Social Contract Theory. If there's something we don't like that the government's doing that's threatening those rights of ours, then we, the people, have the absolute power to throw out this corrupted government and issue one that actually does make us all happy. Therefore, Occupy Wall street is not only the start of another major revolution in America- the revolution's already begun. And also, the real idiots are the ones who sit and do NOTHING.
Thats a deeply admirable post, keep um coming, like the vid also, have you have ckecked out Immortal Technique he's very much in the smae vein of Lupe Fiasco.
Thanks Gary, I've participated in a bunch of workshops pertaining to this whole conflict. Especially from a high schooler pov, this stuff gets my attention! Yes, I'll check him out, glad you liked the vid too!
Definetely. The protesting idea is spreading through out many cities. It looks like they are winning. Everyone is supporting them in one way or another
Well actually, they are NOT winning. Its going to be winter soon, by then they will have to take crap from the government because the government wants to keep us united. I know that in some cases, that it's the governments fault in the first place, but most of these people don't even know about what they are protesting against! I am sick of having to hear all this stupid propaganda about these OW people who came out of no where. Well just as they came out of no where, they will disappear, as if none of this ever occured.
Their mere presence is achieving more than you know
"by then they will have to take crap from the government because the government wants to keep us united."
Yes the government are the good guys, we should all just be obedient and let them sort it out;-)
"I know that in some cases, that it's the governments fault in the first place, but most of these people don't even know about what they are protesting against! "
Nope, they have no idea what they're doing, you however have all the answers.
"Well just as they came out of no where, they will disappear, as if none of this ever occured."
And you seriosuly think your media is covering this thigns fairly?
Their like you there going out searching for idiots, of loafers, or people looking for hand outs so that they can shove a microphone into his face and use him to characterise the movement, you really think your corporate controlled media is presenting you with an accurate depiction of the unfolding events cause if you do your even more guillibe than i thought.
Unlike the Tea Party revolution most of these people don't know what the hell they are protesting for. The protesters are socialists who would rather protest then get a life and a job. This country is turning into a battleground between socialists and the tea party.
I wouldn't be so quick to make such sweeping generalizations.
We have a lot of pragmatic and intelligent people here than know exactley whats going on, and what they want to fix.
I encourage you to be perceptive of what the media is doing here. There is no political dichotomy to it's bias. It reveals only the information a crooked government wants us to see. Otherwise intelligent people like you or myself form reasonable assumptions based on the information that is available to us.
Right now, that information is about OWS being a purely leftist movement. As it only shows lefties from new York.This marginalizes the movement and to weakens our support from the peripheral right. It shows the few that don't know whats going on. Or the radical hippies. Rather than the full body/ average protestor.
Would you have been given more information, you would of presented an equally as reasonable argument in favor of the movement.
the problem with your suggestion is that there is nothing positive to say in favor of the movement, all they can think to do is avoid the topic, discredit people that dont agree with them, (ex: their a racist, they raped someone, they hate america etc) and they never try to actually solve the problem by working together
I occupy Grand Rapids on Saturdays. Perhaps because Grand Rapids is much smaller in scale compared to New York but 90% of the occupiers are employed and/or in College. The 10% without a job are either parents or looking for a job. I think its unfair for you to make such claims.
I just don't see how occupying anything will get anyone a job. What we need to do is vote every incumbent out of office and take our government and our country back.
No... they're nothing more than a bunch of wannabe hippies... they're not organized, they have no leaders, they don't even know what they're message is. They just want government to take care of them so they don't have to work. This is little more than an excuse to hang out in the park, play their drums and smoke pot... as soon as the weather turns they'll be gone and forgotten.
If i was him i would have said any government that can afford to pay for wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, can afford to run over 1,000 military bases around the world, and overall invest $663.8 billion into the military every year can afford to pay my tuition fees.
You know i had my undergraduate tuition fees paid by the government, and its a very good thing, im not saying it doesn't have flaws but it definitely gives lots of people who are intelligent enough to succeed in academia but would otherwise end up in a much worse position not beffitting of their ability.
Free education is one of our most prized assessents and played a massive part in our boom as we had a well educated workforce and very low wages, and thus attracted massive FDI.
Personally i think free healthcare and education should be a staple part of any developed secular soceity, and the money you spend killing poor people every year could pay for it tens times over, and then some.
If i was him i would have said any government that can afford to pay for wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, can afford to run over 1,000 military bases around the world, and overall invest $663.8 billion into the military every year can afford to pay my tuition fees.
You know i had my undergraduate tuition fees paid by the government, and its a very good thing, im not saying it doesn't have flaws but it definitely gives lots of people who are intelligent enough to succeed in academia but would otherwise end up in a much worse position not beffitting of their ability.
Free education is one of our most prized assessents and played a massive part in our boom as we had a well educated workforce and very low wages, and thus attracted massive FDI.
Personally i think free healthcare and education should be a staple part of any developed secular soceity, and the money you spend killing poor people every year could pay for it tens times over, and then some.
Ya these upstarts protesting for more rights, who do they think they are, i mean an ordinary amercan can have his house snatched off him but the bankers just get balied out, wait is that capitalism? I thought in capitalism if you fail, you fail, could that be one of the things these people are annoyed about?
But ya we should beat these idiot to a pulp for excercising their democratic right like many of the police have been doing, the cheek of them protesting. I mean what in the hell was ever achieved by protesting, and asking question of corrupt power structures, these fools, when will they learn, the best course of action is always keeping your mouth shout and being an obedient little drone.
You're right! Bailing out the banks isn't capitalism and shouldn't have happened. They should have been allowed to fail! As for people loosing their homes... that shouldn't have happened either because they shouldn't have had those homes in the first place. The government shouldn't have forced the banks to make the risky loans to people who couldn't afford them. (of course I'm still wondering where all these foreclosed homes are? I live in Ohio, one of the states harder hit, but I haven't seen any.)
Why are you so concerned about America anyway? Europe is way worse off... if you feel so strongly about it why don't you head on down to Rome and smash some windows?
No i didn't bother taking one, even though ive spent so much time on this site over the few months since i joined that i probably should have cause it could in all seriousness be considered a part of my life at this stage.
Really, so you've based your opinion on an interview with some uneducated kid who was made to look stupid in order to denigrate and defame the entire movement. Please man, can you not recognise the level of inequality and injustice inside your own country, these movements don't coem out of nothing, they come from justifiable grievances.
Here please wathc the following video, its an interview with one your best writers and journalists Chris Hedges:
I didn't base my opinion on that one video. Your debate is Occupy Wallstreet, could this be the start of a major revolution in america? Not about the level of inequality and injustice inside America... I gave you my opinion based on the question... no, these idiots will not start a major revolution in American. The protester in the video is representative of the majority of these clowns.
"Your debate is Occupy Wallstreet, could this be the start of a major revolution in america?"
Really because its already starting to spread around to the rest of the country.
"Not about the level of inequality and injustice inside America"
Im letting you know the reasons why these people are proesting, there not all freash faced kids looking for college tuition, in fact i can gaurantee you that guy is in the minority.
"... I gave you my opinion based on the question"
Fair enough you don't think it'll spread i hear, but you're clearly not interested in the underlying reasons behind how it got started, or the root causes.
"these idiots will not start a major revolution in American"
Never say never.
"The protester in the video is representative of the majority of these clowns"
No i can assure you he isn't and fact that you think that says a lot about you me friend.
Your attemtps to discredit this based on a fw interviews really suugests to me that you not willing to even consider why people are currently protesing peacefully in ever greater numbers in the US.
There are other videos you know, you seem to be very selective in the videos you present:
Look at the crowd Garry, it's not difficult. Are you blind? I can post just as many YouTubes as you. Are you suggesting that you aren't selective when you post videos or articles? Bwhaha!
These idiots will be gone as soon as it gets cold.
" Are you suggesting that you aren't selective when you post videos or articles? Bwhaha!"
Well you're the one who psted them first to support your view that all these people are just crazed hippies looking for free hand outs. I admit its very early days but the fact that it started in wall street with a few hundred and has increased to a few thousand and now has spread to other cities is surely a sign that is could become bigger.
"These idiots will be gone as soon as it gets cold."
I wouldn't label someone an idito for excercising their democratic right to protest what they feel is grave injustive being prepetrated by their country, you know theres nothing wrong with quesiton the rains of power every now and then, maybe you think that makes someone an idiot but i personally don't. I think if there were more quesitons being asked of the US government a lot of lives around the world would have been saved but then again im just an extremists who hates the US, and loves terrorism.
Again i struggle to understand how you've come to the conclusion that the majority of these people are idiots, it seems to me they have very real problems caused by a system that has completed failed them, a system that favours elite power, and the wealthy. As Ron Paul says current policy measures, and planned by most of the presidential candidates will obliterate the middle class.
To quote the late great George Carlin:
"That's the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other so that they, the rich, can run off with all the fucking money! Fairly simple thing! Happens to work! You know? Anything different! That's what they're gonna talk about race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status, sexuality, anything can do, keep us fighting with each other, so that they can keep going to the bank! "
"You know how I define the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there... just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep 'em showing up at those jobs."
What you fail to realize is that many of these people don't have real problems at all. This isn't a third world nation. No one has to be homeless or go hungry (excluding those with mental illness). They want freebies! They're lazy! I guarantee you most of them have cell-phones and laptops and plenty of marijuana to go round. They don't even know what they're pissed off about...
I'm not saying there aren't problems and reforms aren't needed... I'm just saying that this bunch isn't going to be the ones to do it.
"I'm not saying there aren't problems and reforms aren't needed... I'm just saying that this bunch isn't going to be the ones to do it."
I don't agree with your characterisation of the protsetors to be honest, and i doubt you are right, but ill get back to you once ive learnt more about the nature of them, you may be correct i am not as informed on this as i would like to be.
Theres a natural rate of unemployment, more money than debt built into the system, the fed can crash the economy whenever they want to, etc. Did you just put all the blame on the victim?
There is a natural rate of unemployment, full employment is impossible in this country look it up.
Various social nets are currently under attack, and when banks and the government collectively screwed over a large part of the population and caused the recession; the people who had their homes foreclosed, got laid off, ran out of unemployment due to extreme competitiveness in adequate labor markets, etc they get blamed for it all and not the banks and government...nice.
I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not? It showed up in my in box???
full employment is impossible in this country look it up.
I never said full employment was possible.
the people who had their homes foreclosed, got laid off, ran out of unemployment due to extreme competitiveness in adequate labor markets, etc they get blamed for it all and not the banks and government...nice.
I did blame the banks and the government for the foreclosures.
Not sure why you disputed me when I agree with what you said but anyway... Garry lives across the pond, he thinks there's millions of these marching in the streets coast to coast. LOL
I didn't realize you ever agreed with anyone? I thought you always disputed for some twisted reason... remember the animal rights issue? When I agreed with you but you kept insanely disputing me anyway? lol
If i was him i would have said any government that can afford to pay for wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, can afford to run over 1,000 military bases around the world, and overall invest $663.8 billion into the military every year can afford to pay my tuition fees.
You know i had my undergraduate tuition fees paid by the government, and it’s a very good thing, I’m not saying it doesn't have flaws but it definitely gives lots of people who are intelligent enough to succeed in academia but would otherwise end up in a much worse position not befitting of their ability.
Free education is one of our most prized assets and played a massive part in our boom as we had a well-educated workforce and very low wages, and thus attracted massive FDI.
Personally i think free healthcare and education should be a staple part of any developed secular society, and the money you spend killing poor people every year could pay for it tens times over, and then some.
If i was him i would have said any government that can afford to pay for wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, can afford to run over 1,000 military bases around the world, and overall invest $663.8 billion into the military every year can afford to pay my tuition fees.
You know i had my undergraduate tuition fees paid by the government, and it’s a very good thing, I’m not saying it doesn't have flaws but it definitely gives lots of people who are intelligent enough to succeed in academia but would otherwise end up in a much worse position not befitting of their ability.
Free education is one of our most prized assets and played a massive part in our boom as we had a well-educated workforce and very low wages, and thus attracted massive FDI.
Personally i think free healthcare and education should be a staple part of any developed secular society, and the money you spend killing poor people every year could pay for it tens times over, and then some.
Apparently, the communist and socialists idiots have come out of the woodwork.
Just to prove how much of idiots are they, the guy in the video is self-evident. The guy probably doesn't even know why he is there except he wants his tuition paid by someone else. WHAT A FUCKING TOOL?
Most of these useless idiots know absolutely nothing about how the global financial system works and know less than nothing about the central banks.
"Just to prove how much of idiots are they, the guy in the video is self-evident"
Ya totally cause he represents all of them right?
" Most of these useless idiots know absolutely nothing about how the global financial system works and know less than nothing about the central banks."
"Who does? Is there any leadership in this protest?"
They have figureheads but i don't think they have an overarching leader, most of them have anarchist roots so i don't think they'd like a leader anyway. The piont is when you make a blanket statement like; "Just to prove how much of idiots are they" you blacken a movement fighting for democracy and social reform, that kid was clueless, but hes just a kid most of the people down there know why they are there because they know they have been treated unfairly.
"I know good amount, and I didn't claim to know all about it."
You claim to have superior knowlegde to all of these protestors (i.e."Most of these useless idiots know absolutely nothing about how the global financial system works and know less than nothing about the central banks.") because you think the entire movement is a farce, and borne out of desire to turn the US into a socialist state. What exactly qualifies you to make such an assertion, have you personally quizzed all these people on there knowledge of economics and the global financial system?
He's a kid cut him some fucking slack, he might not have a suitably refined message, and he may able to correctly articulate his position but im sure he knows why he's there.
".I would suspect if most were interviews they would say the same thing."
Why i am not surprised, you obviously wouldn't think for second that maybe the tv went around interviewing lots of people in order to find a flaky guy they could single and use to defame the movement, that thought could never enter your mind? What you think thats not how tv stations work?
"They want people to work for them....support them. They are moochers"
The majority of them have jobs, what the fuck are you talking about, your small minded bigoted position is as clear as ever, you would have been a fine Nazi.
The majority of them have jobs, what the fuck are you talking about, your small minded bigoted position is as clear as ever, you would have been a fine Nazi.
Wow Gary! That's harsh, even for you.... wild night at the pub last night?
He is an idot. No message.....gary, none. I bet he looks at himself online in this interview and wants to die from humiliation. His face is the face of this protest. People with nothing better to do.
So now the media is after the liberals? LMAO
The media is liberal Gary.....they probably couldnt find anyone with the brains to make sense.
There were people pissing and crapping on the streets. There were people screwing in public. And you say they are well adjusted, normal hard working Americans? They WERE BREAKING THE LAW A LOT OF THEM.
When I protest at PParenthood clinics I don't crap in front of the buiding or piss all over the parking lot. I dont have sex either....I DO NOT BREAK THE LAW AND ACT LIKE A LUNATIC LIKE MOST THESE PROTESTERS ARE ACTING.
I have a message and am able to articulate this message when I am interviewed.
For you to call me a Nazi shows your lack of intelligence which we all know because we read your crap everyday. If anyone is a hater its you......guess the Jews are not the only people you hate. You are the socialist, communist, humanist.....not me.
It really is funny to listen to you, you have no idea what your taking but still so steadfast in your convictions, thats what i call unbeleivable ignorance.
"There were people pissing and crapping on the streets. "
Yes the street are a wash with faeces lets go swimming.
"And you say they are well adjusted, normal hard working Americans? They WERE BREAKING THE LAW A LOT OF THEM."
Its called civil disobedience, Gandhi was breaking British laws enforced upon his people when he liberated his country from age old imperialist rule.
The government don't make the laws they enforce them, the people make the laws, go hug your bible, that will protect you, you fundamentalist wackjob.
"When I protest at PParenthood clinics I don't crap in front of the buiding or piss all over the parking lot."
Why not you might enjoy it, hey don't knock it till you've tried it ;-)
"I dont have sex either"
Well im hardly surprised you don't ever have sex, you've simply built up all this sexual tension that needs to be released like a head of steam in a kettle, you're ready to blow, maybe once you have you can start to think rationally, and perhaps some of the bigoted hatred you have towards your fellow man will dissipate.
"I have a message and am able to articulate this message when I am interviewed."
Good for you.
"When I protest at PParenthood clinics I don't crap in fro"
Oh my God are you actually telling me your one of those pro-life wackjobs, oh this is too perfect, so if your so pro-life how come you don't adopt one of those milllions of orphaned kids destained to grow up in institutional care?
How come you beleive an amorphous blob of cells that hasn't even developed any discernible nervous system or brain activity qualifies as a human being?
"For you to call me a Nazi shows your lack of intelligence "
No, it shows that ive read down through most of your arguments and have observed your many hatefilled rants against muslims, and how you'd like them all to be killed in some great holy war, that in my opinion is the talk of a facist, but ill leave other people decide, most people here have a reasonably good idea of how crazy you are.
"which we all know because we read your crap everyday."
Whose we? What you think anyone on this site shares your twisted opinion, jesus if thats the case ill stop posting here right now.
"If anyone is a hater its you"
As i said before, i love and respect all human beings, even you (to an extent), maybe im not Mr. Courteous when im stressed out in college posting on a debate site for light entertainment but i always treat people well regardless of who they are, where they come from, what religion they are if any, what class level they are from, what cultural background they have.
You cannot say the same, you are clearly racist towards the Islamic faith, and judging from other suspicious comments you've made id say you probably view homosexuality as being wrong, and against nature, don't try to pretend otherwise would you've written the reams and reams of hatred here, i think a quote from Bob Dylan is farily apt here:
"And some say don't hate nothing at all except hatred"
I don't hate you but i hate your opinions, i wish you could be the true Christian you claim to be and see all men as equal but you don't, because faith alone doesn't bestow those things, faith can only indoctrinate and polarise the mind, and im sure some twisted fundamentalist sect has done a number on you, and i think your far too far down the rabbit hole to ever come out.
"guess the Jews are not the only people you hate"
Can you provide a single shred of evidence that shows i have any hatred towards the Jewish faith, seriously show me, you think when i criticise the government of Isreal for massacring 1400 civilians in Gaza that must mean i hate all Jews and that im a complete anti-semite, cause i know thats how your small mind works.
"ou are the socialist, communist, humanist.....not me."
Actually i don't mind being called any of those things , unlike you i don't equate those words with the devil, its the devil, the devil.
No doubt... I don't think all of them are but obviously many, probably a majority, are just a bunch of losers that don't have anything better to do. Check out this one.... talk about idiot!
Ya that guy is vile, so what, i mean he doesn't represent them, you really don't get it do you?
You posted a video some the same guy as last time could i please have the source i am more certain now that the wank stain whose creating these videos is purposely searching the streets for people lihe the guy in the video so really who is more vile?
Its ok i found the source from the video you supplied, and surprise surprise is from the "National Review Online (NRO). A conservative right leaning paper like Fox News light"
Wow what a shocker, the neo-cons (thats right neo-cons, i never said anything else, you can't prove anything, good-bye, my nose isn't growing) want to make these look like a clueless bunch of hippies and anti-semites, relevelation. Your problem is you actually beleive their bullshit propaganda, that speaks volumes of you Hellno.
No, it's you that doesn't get it and is failing to see my point as usual.
You posted a video some the same guy as last time
I can't even make sense of that. I really wish you would proof read what you post.
wank stain
LOL
purposely searching the streets for people lihe the guy in the video
Well duh! My point is that they don't have to do a lot of searching.
Its ok i found the source from the video you supplied, and surprise surprise is from the "National Reconnaissance Office (NRO). The NRO is the U.S. Government agency in charge of designing, building, launching, and maintaining America’s intelligence satellites"
Hahaha! No Garry... it's not the evil government... NRO "National Review Online" and yes, it's a right leaning site... I say so what? The guy in the video was a real protester and NRO didn't put a gun to his head and tell him to say that stuff.
Wow what a shocker, the US governement want to make these look like a clueless bunch of hippies and anti-semites, relevelation
Again, it wasn't the government.
Your problem is you actually beleive their bullshit propaganda
Not true... but I'm not a nutty as hell conspiracy theory person either.
"No, it's you that doesn't get it and is failing to see my point as usual."
I see your point, and its a perfectly valid one, i admit you may well be right in mnay of the things you have said, you have presented your position clearly i can accept it but i just don't think thats all this movement amoutns to, this wouldn't have happened in the frist place if it was just a bunch of lazy hippies.
"I can't even make sense of that. I really wish you would proof read what you post."
Sorry about that i just read thorugh myself there and realsied how awful it was, ive cleaned it up a little so its actually decipherable now.
"Well duh! My point is that they don't have to do a lot of searching."
How did you come to that conclusion?
"Hahaha! No Garry... it's not the evil government... NRO "National Review Online""
Shit i should have realised that, i just ran with the NRO thing, fucking hell that was bad, im supposed to be a successfuly researcher, that was the ultimate fail, im glad nobody in my college saw that, ill just go back and edit the original.
"Again, it wasn't the government."
I acknowlege that my mistake i carried away with myself, but still there like fox news light.
"Not true... but I'm not a nutty as hell conspiracy theory person either"
I don't beleive in many conspiracy theories but i also don't beleive everything i hear coming from my goevrnmentespecially considering how many times they've been caught blatantly lying. Theres nothing conspiratorial about 1% of the population controlling 40% of the wealth, and 10% controlling 90%, there called facts, and fact that the people with that wealth will try to hang onto it at all costs should be another obvious fact.
"Judging me are you?"
Im saying from the get go you've been judging this crowd calling them all idiots, and loafers despite the fatc that you probably know very little about them, and given the harsh economic situation, and the grave injustices that have befallen many americans you can't seem to sympathise with any of these people.
How can you come to the opposite conclusion? Are you there?
Look at pictures of the crowd... a large percentage of them look nutty as hell. That's just my opinion. I have said that not all of them are but if you don't think that a huge percentage of them are protesting simply for the sake of protesting then I think you are naive. They have no clear message and no solutions. What do they want? You probably couldn't find two of them to agree on that.
Look, I seriously doubt I'd agree with their grip (if I actually knew precisely what it was) but if they don't weed out the riffraff and get organized they're going to fail.
Theres nothing conspiratorial about 1% of the population controlling 40% of the wealth, and 10% controlling 90%
Did I ever say there was? No, I was referring to your suggestion that a government agency was responsible for posting those videos. (And remember that the top 1% also pays 30-40% of the federal taxes and those making less than $35k pay almost nothing.)
Im saying from the get go you've been judging this crowd calling them all idiots, and loafers
Not true, I changed my wording from "all" to "most" or "many" after you bitched about it.
given the harsh economic situation, and the grave injustices that have befallen many americans you can't seem to sympathise with any of these people.
Why do you continue to only blame America? Europe's economy is worse than ours right now and Ireland's was really in the toilet a couple years ago, I assume it still is but that is just an assumption on my part. You think wealth is distributed evenly across Europe? The violent protesters in Rome and Greece don't seem to think so. At least our protesters haven't been violent, yet.
"How can you come to the opposite conclusion? Are you there?"
No, but given the level of social injustice that is virtually indemic in your soceity it makes sense that good honest decent people woudl finally say enough is eough and take to the streets, add to to that the videos i have seen and the people i deeply respect openly coming out in favour the protests and i suppose i have swayed towards thinking this movement probably has a lot going for it, don't get me wrong, maybe your right, and maybe this is just going to amount to nothing but im hopeful.
I admit you have just as much insight as i do, maybe even more, it is your country but im not going to make any final judgement until see this movement for myself, its spreading acorss the globe, its goin to be in my home town soon (uits already in Dublin) and then ill be one of those smelly lazy hippies you hate so much.
"Look at pictures of the crowd... a large percentage of them look nutty as hell. That's just my opinion."
There a diverse crowd, i would view that as a good thing.
"opinion. I have said that not all of them are but if you don't think that a huge percentage of them are protesting simply for the sake of protesting then I think you are naive."
I dunno maybe your right, i suppose i amm being a little naive.
2 They have no clear message and no solutions. What do they want?" they have ltos of demands actuially"
They have a message and im sure they fathom a few solutions if anyone took them seriously:
"And remember that the top 1% also pays 30-40% of the federal taxes "
Come fucking off it.
"Not true, I changed my wording from "all" to "most" or "many" after you bitched about it"
Ok fair enough.
"Europe's economy is worse than ours right now and Ireland's was really in the toilet a couple years ago, I assume it still is but that is just an assumption on my part"
Ya were still reptty bad, but i think the worst is over, luckily i weather the storm in college, nice and comfy.
"You think wealth is distributed evenly across Europe?"
NO thats why nearly every city in europe is protesting, you name the city theres some sort of prtest going on, in Rome it turned violent cause about 1000 anarchist came with no intention to protest peacefull, they had ptrol bombs.
" The violent protesters in Rome and Greece don't seem to think so. At least our protesters haven't been violent, yet."
Your portestors haven't your police force certainly have, and many think the polcie are going to turn this thigns very violent very soon, and then your media will be saying look at these protestors hurting cops and attack good decent average guys, and vandalising, and im sure you'll lap that up as well. In far the police didn't start it in Rome, and bunch of crazed anarchists did but if it happen in NY its goin be the police at from what ive seen.
There is little dispute that the top 1% pays 30-40% of the total as far as I know. That's the conclusion that the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office came to... but of course you will never believe that and that's cool.
"There is little dispute that the top 1% pays 30-40% of the total as far as I know"
I don't want to insult you but you seem to be grossly misinformed, and because of that you have come to conclusions that are grossly misinformed, but i don't blame you, you are subject to themost sophisticated propaganda machine ever conceived, add nationalismm into the mix and you have a potent combination. Please take this seriously, this is why you are wrong:
"2. The wealthiest Americans don’t carry the burden.
This is one of those oft-used canards. Sen. Rand Paul, the tea party favorite from Kentucky, told David Letterman recently that “the wealthy do pay most of the taxes in this country.”
The Internet is awash with statements that the top 1 percent pays, depending on the year, 38 percent or more than 40 percent of taxes.
It’s true that the top 1 percent of wage earners paid 38 percent of the federal income taxes in 2008 (the most recent year for which data is available). But people forget that the income tax is less than half of federal taxes and only one-fifth of taxes at all levels of government.
Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes (known as payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage earners. That’s because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800."
Please read thorugh the article, its quite informative and gives you a good idea why there are people current occupying times square.
Also, this recent Chomsky interview gives a good accunt of the current situation, i don't really have time to interpret it and put it into my own words sorry :-(
Well I did say "federal" income tax but you make a valid point about the other taxes. I was merely stating the CBO's findings on federal taxes. Our tax system is so complicated and such a freaking mess I don't really trust anyone's numbers to be honest and the numbers can easily be manipulated to favor anyone's point of view.
Our entire tax system needs to be tossed out and started over... I will concede that.
And just to be clear... I have never said that the system was fair.
"Well I did say "federal" income tax but you make a valid point about the other taxes. I was merely stating the CBO's findings on federal taxes. Our tax system is so complicated and such a freaking mess I don't really trust anyone's numbers to be honest and the numbers can easily be manipulated to favor anyone's point of view."
I don't beleive so, i think the rich are taxed substantially less than the poor, but i will conceed i don't have an in-depth knowledge of the system but im willing to trust Noam Chomsky.
Occupy is world-wide but there has been nationwide arrests in the U.S. Although no Syrian-like brutal crackdown of the Arab Spring protests - denying political public assembly may finally pry open the eyes of Amercians that freedom is only an illusion unless prepared to sacrifice for it.
What is disturbing is the 'kidnapping' of legit customers at a bank - If the bank wanted them to leave - why didn't they let them?
23 customers of Citibank allegedly found themselves under arrest after being locked in the bank at 555 La Guardia Place, New York by security guards who even forced legitimate Citibank customers going about their daily business back into the bank.
If Gov't takes the gloves off - will America react with increased violence - hardly - with the attention span of 8 seconds I doubt that this will sustain for the presidential election.... because there is no politcal leader out there for the 99%
A revolution of spoiled, dumb brats who want the government to do all the work for them? I sure hope not! But with the idiots in America today, anything is possible....ugh...
Ya maybe you'll get your home foreclosed in the coming weeks and months and maybe then you'll understand, until til then your just going to have to remain small minded.
I would guess most those people do not own homes but rent. I would bet a great portion of them are Democrats....who believe in a nanny state. Most the people at these protests WANT TO GET ARRESTED JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT. Most the protesters are there because they think if they are in a group they can break the law and get away with it. They obstruct the traffic...they overturn trash cans.....have sex and eliminate in public. They are hoodlums. They are not following the law...they are breaking it. They are not peaceful...because in most places of protest police are there in riot gear. They have no respect for the shop owners or the people who live in the neigborhood...they are lewd, many are using this as a place to deal drugs.
Its a cess pool of people who don't have a message other than gee....we aren't rich...and the government owes us. This is more than just people who are frustrated with the economy. This is just the type of activity that Obama would love and embrace. They are lazy, left wing radical...thugs.
"I would guess most those people do not own homes but rent."
Guess is the key word there.
"I would bet a great portion of them are Democrats....who believe in a nanny state"
Bet is the key word here, you have no basis to make any such assertion.
"Most the people at these protests WANT TO GET ARRESTED JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT."
Now your baseless assumptions are becoming wackier and wackier.
"Most the protesters are there because they think if they are in a group they can break the law and get away with it."
You started by qualifying your ridiculous speculations with "i guess", and "i bet", now your stating it as if it is widely accepted fact.
"They obstruct the traffic...they overturn trash cans.....have sex and eliminate in public. They are hoodlums. They are not following the law...they are breaking it. They are not peaceful...because in most places of protest police are there in riot gear. They have no respect for the shop owners or the people who live in the neigborhood...they are lewd, many are using this as a place to deal drugs.Its a cess pool of people who don't have a message other than gee....we aren't rich...and the government owes us. This is more than just people who are frustrated with the economy"
Your crazy speculation reaches its epak somehwere in near the end here, i could plot it on a grpah.
"This is just the type of activity that Obama would love and embrace."
Wow you've even managed to take a swipe at Obama, i have to admit your not bad at spouting crazy speculative right wing bullshit.
Well I'm only 14 and I don't see my parent's house getting foreclosed anytime soon because they have something called a JOB and pay their bills,but these idiots graduate out of college, see that the real world requires WORK, then instead of dealing with it and becoming successful, they go out and protest because the government isn't babying them. This is what happens when Liberals have a get-together and put their heads together....sad...just...sad.
Do you have any idea how much debt is being passed onto the middle class, really you should go and do some research before you characterise a movement in the way that you did.
You my friend assume that all people against this movement are somehow well to do when in fact, that is not the case. In fact many people including myself are below slightly above or on the poverty line. We however have enough sense to realize that rich people are not some sort of evil 1% who take hoard all the wealth and put those who wish to rise in stature down. It is simply not the case I and I am growing really tired of your ridiculous anti-western (particularly towards the US) sentiment and your constant whining about our society when this entire conversation would not be possible without the US.
"You my friend assume that all people against this movement are somehow well to do when in fact, that is not the case."
I don't beleive i ever said that.
"We however have enough sense to realize that rich people are not some sort of evil 1% who take hoard all the wealth and put those who wish to rise in stature down."
No that pretty much exactly what they do, i mean you can still rise in stature, you can really get rich, but it is a imposibility for the overwhelming majority of soceity(~99%).
The top 1% now control 40% of the countries wealth, i remember saying the same thing on this site nearly two years ago, and since then a revolution has occured.
The top 10% control 90% of the wealth, this was not the case just 30yrs ago, the fact fact that the system quite openly favours the rich (leaving aside the facism of bailing out too big to fails). If you're not annoyed about that then you must think it's all just some big accident, and coincidence, and the rich never had any intention of foing what they did, if that's what you think then im sorry my friend but you're an idiot. If you are too blind to see you are being screwed out of your brith right then there's no point in us continuing this conversation.
"It is simply not the case I and I am growing really tired of your ridiculous anti-western (particularly towards the US) sentiment"
First of all there's nothing ridiculous about anything i say, if you think it's false tell me why, ive never fabricated anything ive posted on this site so to call opinions based on factual evidence ridiculous only demonstrates the strength of your own confirmational bias.
Secondly, i actually haven't been slandering america lately, if you doubt it go check my recent posts. Keep in mind that when i do slander the US, im not attacking its citizens, the US is not some abstract entitty in which an opinion about it's brutal terroristic foriegn policy represetns a personal attack on all it's inhabitants, but all too often that is how it has been perceived on this site. It seems that very few of you are willing to listen to criticism about your government, you simply don't want to know, you're happy living the dream that you're the real good good guys in the world, you know they call it the american dream cause you have to be asleep to beleive it;-)
Also, how could you be growing tired of it, i don't think you've been on this site recently, have you?
"your constant whining about our society when this entire conversation would not be possible without the US."
Sorry Garry... I know we've pretty much exhausted this debate between us but I thought you might find this helpful... maybe if you learn to speak OWS you can get it going in Ireland.
The whole point is to make every decision democratic, and everyone repeating everything is to ensure everyone hears, and that they all speak with one voice.
You may think this will come to nothing, and you might well be right, but i can tell you that this small protest that slowly gathering momentum is scaring a lot of people in poistion of power and authority in the US, they know that these could easily be the embers from which a blazing fire is ignited because they just how much the average guy in the US has been fucked, because they were the ones doing hte fucking. Now maybe you don't agree with that, and thats fair enough maybe it'll take you or someone close to you being on the end of it before you will change your tune, but i can assure you for every person protesting on the streets there are thousands behind him to want to protest, and if they surface then a real revolution will be underway.
Haha! This won't last because these kooks don't even know what they want... they don't have a message. But it is fun to watch. They interview a protester on the news last night and he said he quit his job to go protest! Bwhahaha!
Fair enough keep laughing something very historic could be happening right before your eyes but you've clearly aready made up your mind on what you think its all about.
Well, like I said... Europe is in worse shape... if you think this hippie movement is so damn important then get out in the streets and start smashing in windows.
The point is..... that this group of people is not making any statement...but to show the ugly side, the filthy side of America. They have no message. They are people who are unmotivated who quit their jobs to go protest...who shit in the streets, have open sex on the benches...of a public park. They are trying to relive the 60's ...thats all they are trying to do.
There are a lot of people getting screwed in America. To blame Wall Street totally is wrong. It starts at the TOP...........so who is in charge you tell me?
There are thousands alright...who are embarrassed that these people call themselves Americans. You can protest.....you can be heard.......but to do it this way.....Democracy, does it also include actions that are degrading that are actually illegal?
We need a revolution alright. We need to round up EVERY illegal in this country and send them home. We need to take care of our own not reward lawbreakers by giving them free housing, medical and college grants and scholarships. We need to start drilling for oil.........
"They are people who are unmotivated who quit their jobs to go protest"
Yes thats it tar them all with your bigoted brush.
"who shit in the streets"
Yep they're animals, i saw two males throwing faeces at each other on the news there yesterday, then one of them pinned the other down and smeared his racid feaces onto his face and into his mouth, i was weirdly turned on by the whole escapade:O
"have open sex on the benches"
Yep massive orgies going on all over New York, the stink of semen is putrid.
"They are trying to relive the 60's "
Yep thats whats on their placards alright, nothing to with the current economic situation and how their capitalist masters have fuckined them up the ass with a 20 inch dick, oh wait you agree with me i.e. "There are a lot of people getting screwed in America"
" To blame Wall Street totally is wrong"
Really? How so?
"There are thousands alright...who are embarrassed that these people call themselves Americans"
Id be proud of them if i was american.
" does it also include actions that are degrading that are actually illegal"
I don't what they are doing thats so illegal, i heard they wre brutalised by the police alright but they've been completely peaceful and haven't broken any laws, expcet maybe your laws on what you beleive people should and shouldn't be allowed do.
"We need to round up EVERY illegal in this country and send them home."
I didn't know you were a native american, finally trying to rid yourself of those fucking imperialist europeans that invaded your land nearly three hundred years ago.
"We need to take care of our own not reward lawbreakers by giving them free housing, medical and college grants and scholarships. We need to start drilling for oil........."
I don't why i even respond to people like you, actually i do, im stuck in college and its easy to procrastinate this way.
No theres no hypocrsy there actually despite what you're trying to insinuate, i look at the american mainstream all the time it doesn't mean i trust them but fair enough thats a reasonably valid criticism, heres a muich more realiable source, i stand by this source its not perfect but it makes american mainstream media look cartoonish as it actually tells the truth.
Studying what? Gosh I can only imagine........Probably majoring in How to Hate and Bring down America. You are nothing but a hater.
Heck you're to young to know what is going on. You tell someone on here that they are too young to know God.....and yet you at college age have the world figured out.
No wonder your on this site 24-7....nothing better to do with your time.
Yes i am, and its "you're" (even though i never spell check either so its fairly hypocritical of me to be pionting out errors to you).
"Studying what?"
Masters degree in sustainable energy engineering. I finished my undergrad just a year ago, i majored in chemical and biopharmaceutical engineering, the degree was the best engineering degree the college offered, so much so that it is recognised as masters, so this will be my second masters degree.
"Gosh I can only imagine"
No need to imagine i just told you.
"Probably majoring in How to Hate and Bring down America."
No you're doing a fine job of that all on your own.
". You are nothing but a hater"
Its funny how you can only consider your own failure to keep the hatred out of your heart a failure of the world. You are projecting your hate onto me, while i admit i a bitterly cynical person with little respect for the human race as a whole, i am not a hatefilled person, and i wuld never let the feelings i have about my species affect how i treat an individual of my species. You are externalising your own hate, and consequently, not realising how hate filled you really are.
"You tell someone on here that they are too young to know God"
I never said that, please if you are going to quote me do me the courtesy of quoting me directly, then you can give your interpretation of it if you like but what you have done there is simply put words in my mouth, i never said such a thing, and whats more i don't actually beleive you can be too young to experience God(or the Universe as i like to call it).
"and yet you at college age have the world figured out."
No actually i really don't, i don't anything, im sorry if i give the impression that i think i know everything.
"No wonder your on this site 24-7....nothing better to do with your time"
Actually you got it all wrong, and if you just keep posting on this site you'll notive me not posting anymore after December once i have finished college.
Rock, paper, scissors..........is all that video was. People who simply don't have anything better to do.
Many of these people are breaking the law. People have taken notice of them Gary because they have acted like pigs. They have ruined a downtown park. You think this group is threatening? LOL Yea right. They can't even express themselves on camera while being interviewed let alone formulate a message.
They are a bunch of losers who want to relive the 60's and want any excuse to lay around and do nothing. Any people who would crap, have sex, liter in a public place are pigs....and nothing else. Any constuctive message they possibly could give really means nothing...not the way they are conducting themselves. I don't think even the 60's love crowd were this filthy.
"They are a bunch of losers who want to relive the 60's and want any excuse to lay around and do nothing"
Actually i think its the opposite, there a bunch of people (i don't how you determine how some is lower, you probably do by looking at his bank balance im not that small minded) who want social reform, and most of whom want to work but have lost their jobs based on a system that ahs failed them (the ordinary man) but has made the rich super-rich.
"Any people who would crap, have sex, liter in a public place are pigs....and nothing else."
What???? You serious consider yourself superior to these people, jesus your a real model Christian aren't you.
" Any constuctive message they possibly could give really means nothing"
What kind of people would liter, crap in the streets on benches, have open sex in a downtown park in view of the whole world? And what do you mean by superior? If you mean do I think I have more class? Then yes I am superior in that way. I believe in free speech and that we as American citizens have the right to protest peacefully. But they are a disruption, eye sore and are breaking the law. It is against the law to go to the bathroom, whether it be going #1 or #2......and that is happening. It is against the law to have sex in a public place and that is happening. I would suppose it is also against the law to liter and that is happening. Do they care about the law? No. So they are not peacefully protesting.
And what is their message? That human beings when they get pissed off enough and conduct themselves like pigs? They have no message.
Would Jesus condone what they are doing. ABsolutely no, not the way they are doing it.
They should clean up and protest with a message. They should respect those who might not be protesting but living in the area. There are hard working people all around them and they are disrupting their lives. They can protest peacefully with signs and they should respect the law of the land...while doing it.
For you again Gary to use the race card shows just how wacked your viewpoint is on this. This has nothing to do with color or race. But then you have nothing else to add constuctively so that is all you have as a defense.
"If you mean do I think I have more class? Then yes"
You speak of individual instances that could have very little connection to the actual movement, i very much doubt what your saying is 100% accurate and if it is im a confident it is not being protrayed correctly, you see there is enormous pressure on these to move, the police have already stated to the some of the figureheads that if they don't leave soon there going to hurt somebody.
"Then yes I am superior in that way"
Give it a rest will you, thinking your superior to anyone is what actually makes you inferior.
"I believe in free speech and that we as American citizens have the right to protest peacefully."
The police in Times square don't seem to agree with you.
" But they are a disruption, eye sore and are breaking the law."
How exactly do you know that? Have you been down there yourself to physically inspect these things for yourself or are you simply relying on your exceptional mainstream journalism to deliever the unadulterated truth, give me break, you people.
" It is against the law to go to the bathroom, whether it be going #1 or #2......and that is happening"
Really, well i guess i break the law about 10-15 times a day :-)
"It is against the law to have sex in a public place and that is happening"
How do you know? Wheres the evidence, and if there is evidence how can that be used as an excuse to tell thousands of people sorry one of you guyd trid to have sex in the park now you've all got to clear out, if someone is caught having sex in the park that person will be arrested, something tells me that not every person in the movement is regularly having sex in the park, that just doen't seem logistically possible to me, so therefore pelase stop trying to cling to your pathetic excuses fior wanting this compeltely democratic (and compeltely correct movement) to disprese, cause i got knews for ya there here to stay, its only gobnna get worsem, people are finally saying no more, its spreading all over the world, and if you don't want to be part of it then get the fuck out of the way.
" I would suppose it is also against the law to liter and that is happening."
Are you serious, give a rest, go in ashout at the tv for while.
"Do they care about the law? No."
ya i think they do, i think they beleive it was unlawful for their homes to get repossessed while multi-millionaires and billionaires were being bailed out, i think thats a little more unlawful that littering, call me crazy.
"And what is their message? That human beings when they get pissed off enough and conduct themselves like pigs? They have no message."
You've conducted yourself like a pig plenty of times on this website but you still seem to have a message.
"Would Jesus condone what they are doing."
Would Jesus condone your Racism and Bigotry against your fellow man?
"There are hard working people all around them and they are disrupting their lives"
Many of them are hard working people themselves whose lives have been compeltely unfarily destroyed.
"For you again Gary to use the race card shows just how wacked your viewpoint is on this. This has nothing to do with color or race. But then you have nothing else to add constuctively so that is all you have as a defense"
No no no, you're not going to get way with that my friend, ive debated you enough to know how racist you are, nearly everytime i debate you you clearly demonstrate your bigotry, i don't even need to go too far into the historical debate record to find comething to characterise you, i debated you yesterday here ill refresh your memory:
"Israel is Gods country. Anyone who has read the bible or done any sort of studying knows that. Jews were called to be a light to the nations and to spread Gods love around the world....they are a divinely chosen people."
-making Jews superior to eveyoine else using your ideology, that reminds of something what was it agin, a movement in Germany that took power in 1936
If a country is not Christian its because of humanists like yourself who just live according to your own moral code...which amounts to..."do whatever you want, everything is moral".
-Insinuating only people with good Christian values can be Moral.
So for those that hate Jews today, who want Israel banished from the earth like the Muslims pray will happen
-Racism against Muslims, i can find much more digustingly extreme examples in you vehemently described your hatred of all things muslim in those debates we had a few months back but im lazy and this will suffice, i think it drives the piotn home sufficiently, anyone who has debated you knows what your about
I would never think of crapping and urinating in a public park. I follow the law. When I picket PP offices.......I FOLLOW THE LAW. Many of these people are not doing that and that is the problem. They say Wall Street has no respect for people...but they have no respect for people either...or laws in place to protect society.
The police have to do what they have to in order to keep order.
How do I know what is going on down there? I see videos and watch the news on television and internet. You obviously are naive about the different things going on down there.
Wall Street is not entirely to blame for everything.
You are calling me a racist.......simply because I believe the WAY in which these protests are going down is wrong. Wow. Are you always so judgemental? I am not racist in any way shape or form. God sees no color and neither do I, except the gloriousness of different cultures. The unique shape of the Asian eye, the beautiful texture of a black womans hair...etc.
You have nothing.....so you are now using the race card. I happen to think Obama is an idiot not because he is half black but because he shows his lack of intelligence in his work. I happen to love and support Herman Cain and am active in his bid for the White House.
So you now call me a pig. How old are you? You say you are getting a degree....LOL....which I highly doubt as you sit here day and night and don't seem to really have a life. A degree in what? Do you always call people pigs who disagree with you......? How juvenile.
I don't hate Muslims either. I go to not one but two Muslim doctors today. LOL And the third was my kids pediatrician a man who lived next door to me with his wonderful wife. So again.....think what you want, you have no clue.
"Many of these people are not doing that and that is the problem."
Again i have to ask where you acquired that information, i have heard otherwise.
"They say Wall Street has no respect for people...but they have no respect for people either"
What re you basing that on, you do realsie when you say they you immedaitely categorise the entire movemtn which is no protesting in every major city in the world, i mean im sorry if you high standard journalism told you to think that these people have no respect for people.
"The police have to do what they have to in order to keep order."
Yes thats it, you see one or two reports of people who couldn't find a bathroom and had to use the street, and that in your eyes gives the police carte blanche to beat these people over the skulls. I man was shot in the fact with a rubber bullet in California, and a tear gas was thrown onto a man in a wheelchair, but hey someone pissed in the street so its fine.
"How do I know what is going on down there? I see videos and watch the news on television and internet."
You watch hogwash that reinforces your incredibly small minded beliefs, just like you post creationist websites as scientific fact, do you not realise i can see right through you, and even if i coudln't, your still not convincing in the least.
"You obviously are naive about the different things going on down there"
Yes thats got to be it.
"Wall Street is not entirely to blame for everything."
How would you know whose to blame for anything.
"You are calling me a racist.......simply because I believe the WAY in which these protests are going down is wrong"
No im calling you a racist cause you frequently referred to muslim people as terrorists, and claimed all 1.6 billion of them are striving towards some holy war, your hatred for muslims is clear.Calling you a racist has nothing to do with the protests, when you turn against the protestors your simply demonstrating what a well trained lap dog you are, your owners would be proud.
"Are you always so judgemental?"
Only when i debate you, if you look back into our historical debates you'll see i was initially well mannered, then i realised who i was dealing with so i knew i had to adopt a different approach i.e. fight fire with fire
"You say you are getting a degree....LOL....which I highly doubt as you sit here day and night and don't seem to really have a life"
Good one;-)
"A degree in what?"
I told you, i have a masters degree, and this is my second, or will be.
"Do you always call people pigs who disagree with you"
No just the ones that act like pigs;-)
"he shows his lack of intelligence in his work."
So you think Sarah Palin would have been far more intelligent?
"How juvenile."
Yes, its not juvenile for you to call all the protestors currently protesting pigs i.e. "People have taken notice of them Gary because they have acted like pigs."
but as soon as i throw your own insult at you it immediately becomes juvenile, thats a nice way to never see yourself as being in the wrong;-)
"I don't hate Muslims either."
You could have fooled me.
"I go to not one but two Muslim doctors today."
Im actually genuinely happy for you, i hope you get to see them as your equals instead of crazed terrorsits who desire to see all Chrisitians die unless they praise Allah.
"So again.....think what you want, you have no clue."
Thats all well and good but have you forgotten what you posted on this site, cause i haven't, i didn't simply concoct this hatred of muslims, you demonstrated it unequivocally in your posts, but if theres a chance that your opinion is starting to change i don't want to do anything that might change that so we'll both agree your not being a hypocrite;-)
So there has not been one incident where the law has been broken? Yea what world are you living in?
The police do not just sit there and shoot....or arrest for no reason. From what I read last night many of the protesters were throwing rocks at the police.
I could post many more on the illegal activity going on.
You said, "No im calling you a racist cause you frequently referred to muslim people as terrorists, and claimed all 1.6 billion of them are striving towards some holy war, your hatred for muslims is clear.Calling you a racist has nothing to do with the protests, when you turn against the protestors your simply demonstrating what a well trained lap dog you are, your owners would be proud."
Many of them are that is fact. I never said that all of them were terrorists. You are a liar.
How old are you? Because I tell ya what.... you are very immature. You are probably a smart ass punk liberal college student who thinks the world owes them everything. As I said.....any college student who had a life....would not be on here day and night. I feel sorry for ya.
You don't fight fire with fire...you are to ignorant of the world to do that? You haven't got a clue. To even bring Palin into this.....I mean what does she have to do with this? Did I say I like Palin?
Anyone who would piss or crap in a public park...would liter and leave waste all over the place....is a pig. Not all of them did this but many of them did. And this did not just happen in New York but LA and SanFransico.
You do not understand Islam.......and the difference between Muslims practicing their faith in the West vs East.
"So there has not been one incident where the law has been broken?"
I am sure some minor laws are being broken (e.g. littering and loitering) but i don't pay much heed to those when there are grave social injustices being fought. Do you think if someone said we should cancel the million man march cause people are going to have to piss in the bushes hw would have been taken seriously?
"Yea what world are you living in?"
I love the way you put in words in my mouth first, then you use those words to defame me, thats a very sneeking argument tactic you know. I never said there has been no crimes committed, im saying from what im hearing that the protestors are overwhelmingly peacful, and not committing crime.
"The police do not just sit there and shoot....or arrest for no reason. "
I beg to differ, the police force are an extension of rapacious power, that power is becoming uneasy at the prospect of a full revolution taking place in the US, and thus the police are being told to disperse these crowds.
"From what I read last night many of the protesters were throwing rocks at the police. "
Lets get one very simple fucking thing straight here ok, there is video evidence of police brutality, so much so that google is being asked to take down those videos, i have heard this allegation of stone throwing but have yet to see anything except some corporate sponsored source claim it, there is cetainly no video evidence of anyone throwing a stone and if you can show me some i will be very impressed, however there is no shortage of examples of police brutality i.e.
"I could post many more on the illegal activity going on."
I am sure you could, your corporate controlled media has been busy denigrating this movement since it realised it couldn't ignore it so im sure there have been plenty of smear campaigns launched since, ill trust my sources you trust yours if you wish.
"Many of them are that is fact. I never said that all of them were terrorists. You are a liar. "
You said that the Koran calls for the death of infidels did you not? You clamied that they all want to see non muslims dead, did you not? Do i need to find the actual quotes, or are you going to own up to your bigotry? Calling me a liar is a sign of desparation and you know it, im going to find those quotes as soon as i get some free time.
"How old are you? Because I tell ya what.... you are very immature. "
That really means a lot coming from you.
"You are probably a smart ass punk liberal college student who thinks the world owes them everything"
Please stop trying to categorise me, your failure to do so speaks volumes of your own inherent social bias.
"As I said.....any college student who had a life....would not be on here day and night.I feel sorry for ya. "
I doing a masters thesis is requires a lot of work, not that you'd know but thanks for your pity, really shows just how mature you are, i am in awe of you.
"You don't fight fire with fire...you are to ignorant of the world to do that?"
Thats it now were getting somewhere, so you think im ignorant of the world, have you ever even been outsdide the US.
"You haven't got a clue."
This coming from the person claiming all muslims want to kill the infidels, and regularlr protests against abortion, and tries to pass creationist propaganda off as as scientific fact, your words are meaningless.
"To even bring Palin into this.....I mean what does she have to do with this? Did I say I like Palin"
I thought you had maybe i was wrong, i apologise.
"Anyone who would piss or crap in a public park...would liter and leave waste all over the place....is a pig"
Again your superior maturity is on display for everyone to see.
"Not all of them did this but many of them did"
ya and that gives the police carte blanche right?, like you said in the previous post,or is your selective memory acting up again. I mean its ok that they shot a man in the face with a rubber bullet, he might have taken a piss down some alley. Seriously yopu should listen to yourself sometime, do you even realise how little sense you make, and then you try to sue seniority on me, if theres one thing ive realised on my time on this planet is that age really is just a number, the older generation are just a fucked up adn stupid as the younger one.
"And this did not just happen in New York but LA and SanFransico."
Of course ya, and the police shoudl be allowed use whatever means are deemed necessary right? i.e.
"The police have to do what they have to in order to keep order."
They should even be using rubber bullets, they shoudl using live rounds right? And they should be firing tear gas, and flash grenades., they should be firing real grenades right? Do you have any idea how much of a crpyto-facist you really are?
"You do not understand Islam.......and the difference between Muslims practicing their faith in the West vs East."
I mean do you want a headcount? All I know is what I see on televisions on news shows and what I read online. Are you denying what I am stating is false? No litering, no waste left all over.......no one eliminated on anything?
I am sure you think its ok to break the law thats a no brainer. So those they showed on television throwing rocks at the police....were justified. This is not about pissing in the bushes. But hey if the person who does this....gets caught they should pay the price.
You know your generation .......kills me. Revolution...revolution LOL You hate authority you hate anyone....especially the police who try to keep us safe.
And cut it out right now skippy or I will report you. You are getting out of control....by using profane language towards me. We are simply debating...but for you obviously this could get violent. It starts with words then a push, shove then more. So if your going to use your juvenile potty mouth with me...I am not going to put up with it. Grow up.
You think you are the only one with a Masters......LMAO. LOL
I have a masters....but I don't showboat it around and brag. As I said grow up skippy.
My corporate controlled............what?
Just who do you think you are? I am a hard working, productive member of society. I went to college got a job and have worked hard my entire life for what I have. My husband did the same. We have a business that is struggling like everyone else..........BUT WE DO NOT WHINE AND BLAME.
You better learn one thing real fast. Life is not easy or fair. What my husband and I make should be ours not yours. If you want money then make it yourself. The government owes you nothing. It is the struggle of the fittest...isn't that what evolutionists believe. You get what you work for.
Yes find my quotes about Islam and I will address each one happily. But include everything even when I talk about my doctors being Muslim...and the fact that I respected them. I will talk about that subject honey as long as you want...bring it on. That is unless you have some papers to write....for your masters.
Some specifics would be nice ya because from my side it just sounds like you're re-iterating the brainwashing propaganda being pouted by your corporate controlled media.
" All I know is what I see on televisions on news shows and what I read online."
You have presented nthing that can callled proof of any of the claims that you have made, if you wanted to see police brutality go onto youtube, you can watch a former marine get a flash grenade thrown onto his head while he lay bleeding on the fround from being geaten by police batons.
"No litering, no waste left all over.......no one eliminated on anything? "
I never said that, you're are far too easy to predict, you try to smear your opponent in such a simplistic manner. I beleive in our previous conversation i said i don't doubt that some minor public order offences have been committed, thats kind oif inevitable when large crowds inhabit a public area for a sustained duration, my point is that the gravity of the offences they are committing pale in comparison to the social injustices they are trying to fight, not that you could understand something like that.
"I am sure you think its ok to break the law thats a no brainer."
Yes of course complete no brainer.
"So those they showed on television throwing rocks at the police....were justified."
I don't condone the throwing of stones if that is what occured, i beleive peaceful protest should be maintained but i also recognise in the fact of police officer with a baton telling you that you have no right to protest peacfully and must move on now or be arrested and beaten, maintaining peacful protest can be difficult.
Now you can keep thrwoing this allegation out as if all the protestors were throwing stones but i cannot find any real substantive evidence corroborating this accusation which leads me to belive it is either a fabrication on the part of the police and coporate media which you are re-iteratin like the well trained parrot you are, i don't deny that there may be truth to the allegation but i think if i did occur (if) it was probably only a handful of the portestors otherwise it would have been caught on video like all the police brutality thats has been committed.
"But hey if the person who does this....gets caught they should pay the price."
You are unbeleivable you know that, i dare say you would have risen high inthe ranks of the Nazi party, thank God you people are not the majority in the US. You think its justify that a man had his skull fractured for wanting to peacefully portest, you think its justofy for the police to crack down on people who are protesting peacefully and tell them they have no right, cause thats more or less what you are saying, you can dress it up all you like but i see right thorugh you.
This isn't about generations, this is a mult-generational phenomenon, just cause you are an uptight neo-con cryto-facist doesn't allow you to label this as a few kids getting angry or a bunch of hippies and loafers.
"especially the police who try to keep us safe"
Whatever.
"And cut it out right now skippy or I will report you. You are getting out of control....by using profane language towards me"
Come off it now, we both know that classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.
"We are simply debating...but for you obviously this could get violent. "
I don't use violence, in all my life the only time i have used was to defend myself, i have never, nor will never iniitiate violence with my fellow man, i would only resort to violence in efnece of my own life and body, and to suggest that i could somehow use violence against a women is deeply insulting to me, i consider myself quite chivalrous, maybe thats just my ego talking, to be honest i don't think i could use violence against a woman even in defense of myself the very thought of it sends a shiver down my spine, and for you to suggest that based on a simple exchange of views that i could commit acts of violence against you is as i said deeply insulting. i don't know exactly what kind of impression i give, i admit my passion can sometimes be confused for anger but im fucking irish, sue for christ sake, the whole reason i bitch and moan is because i see suffering all around me and i empathise on a deep level.
"It starts with words then a push, shove then more."
I clearly don't take words as seriously as you do.
"So if your going to use your juvenile potty mouth with me...I am not going to put up with it. Grow up"
You really omse piece of work you know that.
"I have a masters....but I don't showboat it around and brag."
Are you actually serious? You asked me what level of education i was at in multiple posts, and you asked me what course i was doing, and now you are trying to denigrate me for answering you, this is unbeleivable, i never told anyone my level of education on this site before, and you wanna know why, cause i was never asked before!!!!!!!!!!!
"My corporate controlled............what? "
Your media, or the media in the US, it is largely controlled by big business and corporate interests.
"Just who do you think you are?"
WTF?
"I am a hard working, productive member of society"
I don't remember claiming you weren't.
"I went to college got a job and have worked hard my entire life for what I have"
Again what does this have to do with anything?
"We have a business that is struggling like everyone else..........BUT WE DO NOT WHINE AND BLAME"
Maybe you would if you had all the facts.
"You better learn one thing real fast. Life is not easy or fair."
If i have learned one thing in my life i have learned that, and i have learned it the hard way.
"What my husband and I make should be ours not yours."
Again WTF?
". If you want money then make it yourself."
I beleive you have a gross misunderstanding of me, i don't want hands outs, and i wouldn't take them even if offered to me, i pay my own way in this life, i don't concern myself with money, only when i have to, i concern myself with suffering which is rife even the richest country in the world.
"The government owes you nothing"
Im well aware that i am owed nothing, i am not demanding any form of remuneration where is this even coming from?
" It is the struggle of the fittest...isn't that what evolutionists believe"
You don't even wan't to go there with me Miss.
"Yes find my quotes about Islam and I will address each one happily"
I didn't go too far back as i don't have a lot of time but i feel these quotes are sufficient:
"Israel is Gods country. Anyone who has read the bible or done any sort of studying knows that. Jews were called to be a light to the nations and to spread Gods love around the world....they are a divinely chosen people. "
-elevating Jews (and ill bet jsut isreali Jews) up to a higher status than other human beings
"So for those that hate Jews today, who want Israel banished from the earth like the Muslims pray will happen who are working tirelessly for that to happen...the idea that God has a special relationship with the nation of Israel does not appeal to them. Anti semitism is alive and well. "
-saying all muslims are anti-semites and are trying with all their effort to eradicate the state of Isreal
" No Gary you hate Jews"
- i can't remember how many time you called me a anti-smite and jew hater, this was he first one i found.
"You say very few people hate Jews? The entire Middle East hates Jews"
-Again branding the entire middle east as anti-semitic
" do not know about the Koran either as it states that the infidel should be killed"
- trying agin to defame an entire religion
"the Middle East loves and respects the Jews and wants to share the land is absolutely idiotic"
- Claiming that no people from the middle east will ever live peacefully with Jews, and has not interest in peace, the things that flow nfrom this are truly horrifying i think we can both agree.
"Arabs hate Jews, it would not matter where Jews live, Islam wants them DEAD, GONE."
-This needs no description
"You mention Jimmy Carter...who without a doubt is one of the biggest traitors in American Presidential history"
-Ya he is an anti-semite as well isn't he?
"We are now half a century into the Jewish state…and the same anti Semitism…(like the Nazi Holocaust) is alive today…we see it here on this site…with comments such as yours"
"The Palestianians origins are controversial."
- i don't thinks its controversial to say they lived on th eland for centuries before european settlers came and said that because our anscestors lived hee thousands of years ago you need to get of the land now cause it says in our book its ours. Let me ask you a quesiton if you traced your anscestry back a few thousand years found out where they lived then went there and told the person loving there to get off the land, would you be justified?
"Hopefully they will use the resources to protect themselves."
-what like the 300 nuclear warheads the US sold them that they have refused to sign any kind of non-use agreement with.
"It is only terrorists that Israel targets, and since terrorists love using human shields, civilians often get hit inadvertantly"
-fuck me you're a twisted individual
"Israelis specifically target terrorists and its infrastructure, the Palestinian terrorists specifically target civilians."
I think the Goldstone report would have athing or two to say about that.
"Islam a religion of peace? so much so that they use the Palestinian people are pawns...this is true. Why? The goal? WORLDWIDE DOMINATION For whom? THE ONE AND ONLY ALLAH. This view is not shared by radicals but moderates alike. WHY? It says so in their holy book."
" That is unless you have some papers to write....for your masters."
Don't worry i have submitted a lot of my thesis already, i use this site as stress relief, and to be honest its actually works quite well, but i can type reams and reams of this bullshit in very short spaces of time so you don't need to worry about me and my thesis.
Those are not quotes where I said I hated Muslims. LOL
I gave a position on the land occupied by Isaelites. How is that hating Muslims?
I gave however several instances where I said I thought the world of my Muslims friends...mainly doctors. Come on....
I do not believe based on the scriptures that the land should belong to anyone other than the Jews...the scriptures call them Gods chose. As a Christian believer I believe the scriptures that tell me so. I am not a Jew and I believe that land is Holy, it is where my Savior walked. We might all have the chance at salvation....but God has his reasons and the Jews are elevated and always will be. That does not mean they will make it after death to be with Christ...they won't unless they confess like anyother person. But that land belongs to God and He selected the Jews...its as simple as that.
What I said does not say anything about hating anyone.
I have read the Koran, Hadith.....I know what the book says. That is for another debate......I am not going to list all the scriptures where Allah says to hate the unbeliever.....would take up to much room.
"Those are not quotes where I said I hated Muslims. LOL"
Really why not show those quotes to your muslim doctor and see if he shares the view that they are not hateful in their content.
"I gave a position on the land occupied by Isaelites. How is that hating Muslims?"
Seriously?
"I do not believe based on the scriptures that the land should belong to anyone other than the Jews."
I wasn't aware that God was a real estate agent.
"the scriptures call them Gods chose."
Ya the scriptures say a lot of things.
"As a Christian believer I believe the scriptures that tell me so"
So you beleive based on your ideology thats ok to evict people from their homes, and brutalise them if they resist because you beleive God said its ok.
"but God has his reasons and the Jews are elevated and always will be."
Ya just like a Nazi sympathiser beleives that the Ayran race are Gods chosen people, and are elevated, and always will be.
"But that land belongs to God and He selected the Jews...its as simple as that"
In your mind its as simple as that, im just Glad you people are in the extreme minority because people who think like you are a danger to the survival of the human species.
"What I said does not say anything about hating anyone."
So when you say all muslim are dedicated to the destruction of another race of people thats not hateful?
"I have read the Koran, Hadith.....I know what the book says."
So you beleive based on your ideology thats ok to evict people from their homes, and brutalise them if they resist because you beleive God said its ok.
Well...., isn't that what the Palestinians believe? I mean...., how else are they going to get the Jews to leave? Just asking ;)
Oh..., ok...., so...., they are OK with leaving the Israeli settlements exactly where they are in order to avoid evicting them and having to brutalize them when they refuse to move. Riiiiiggggghhhhhhtttttt!!!! ;)
"Oh..., ok...., so...., they are OK with leaving the Israeli settlements exactly where they are in order to avoid evicting them and having to brutalize them when they refuse to move. Riiiiiggggghhhhhhtttttt!!!! "
As usual your logic is impeccable Joe. The fact is the majority of thsoe settlers haven't been there all that long (of the order of years), and they moved there in full knowledge of that the fact that it was illegal to do so.
"Oh....., I see......, so it's OK to evict them and brutalize them when they refuse to be evicted. Got it "
What are you talking about, i know of no Jewish settlers that are being evicted or brutalised by anyone, they're the ones doing the brutalising, they go down to where Palestians haven't been evicted yet and and destroy their crops and property and if any Palestian resists the IDF come to the aid of the settlers, this is a well known fact, the settlers can even get away with killing Palestians, the IDF don't keep the peace they are worse than the RUC in the NOrht of the Ireland, and the RUC were pretty fucking bad i can tell you.
The settlers should not be brutalised their government should obey the law and tell them to leave, and compensate them for having to leave their homes, the Palestians are looking for 20% of their former homesland, is not much realy is it? I mean considering they once called the entire thing their own and it was only the force of zionism coupled with the sympathy the international community had for the jews psot WW2 that brought the state of Isreal into being.
Did you know that Germany massacred 6 million Jews in WW2, and Russia sacrificed more than 20 million of its young men, did you know that when the A-bomb was developed the rules of the game changed, everything changed, warfare changed, all the supposedly civilised countries came together and formed the UN, and set out how they could devise laws that would prevent such a war every taking place again because most of them despute their diffeences were pragmatic enough to realise if it did happen again it would very likely spell the end of civilisation as we know it.
After the 6 day war UN resolution 242 was enacted, and it has in it the following:
"inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security."
"It's because they lost the bloody war "
You can keep your medieval opinions if they provide some justification to your twisted views but even you must recognise that your own government (by supporting) is in violation of the law it helped create and sworn to uphold.
all the supposedly civilised countries came together and formed the UN, and set out how they could devise laws that would prevent such a war every taking place again because most of them despute their diffeences were pragmatic enough to realise if it did happen again it would very likely spell the end of civilisation as we know it.
What makes you (or anyone) think that civilization as we know it is worth saving? You have a very misguided view of the world ;)
"What makes you (or anyone) think that civilization as we know it is worth saving?"
In my more cynical moments i lament the birth rates of our populations, and consider us a viruse the needs to wiped off this earth but i like any other species am imbued in my genes with a natural tendency to ensure self preservation, and this has extended phenotypic effect's which cause me to desire that all memebers of my species survive and prosper, to be honest its an expecptionally stupid quetion, its like me asking are your family adn friends worth saving? or better yet yourself.
"You have a very misguided view of the world"
Like a water molecule in the river Nile i can only move and meander with the prevailing direction of the river.
I have been neighbors with my Muslim doctor for almost ten years. They know exactly how I feel. Why do you think they left Iran? LOL
Why do you think most Muslims want to move OUT?
It goes without saying....
As for the land conflict between Muslim and Jews and Christians it is all about religion. This conflict goes back to Hagar, Abraham and Sarah.
You miss the point of chosen. Chosen does not mean they as individuals they are better than anyone else. Chosen does not mean that they will get to heaven without Christ because they will not.
I did not say all Muslims are hateful and want to kill people. I believe that there are many people in the Middle East forced to submit who are not really believers. In any case the people have no choice. I believe like I said that Muslims practice their faith differently in the West than the East.
I did not say they were all hateful people. But on 9-11 we saw pictures in the streets all over the Islamic World of them cheering in the streets. So there is a good portion of them that hate our guts and want us dead.
I am not going to post them all here but I have links to Islamic leaders who admit they want all the Jews dead. This is not about land....this is about a side who wants the other eliminated. It is fact that Jews are the enemy of Islam. So for me to state this......is not hateful it is a fact.
"I have been neighbors with my Muslim doctor for almost ten years."
Wow.
"They know exactly how I feel"
They know that you think they, and anyone who holds the same faith as they do (i.s. islam) are dedicated to killing all Jews beacuse all Arabs despise Jews for simply being Jews, and are praying everyday for the death of all Jews, do they know that you think their religion is not a reigion of peace, and is hell bent on world domination, and that all muslim share this view as you said :"radicals and moderates alike", that they don't evenm care about the land in the middle east, it would matter is all the Jews elft they would still want to kill them because they are hell bent on eradicating all Jews.
you're trying to tell me they know all of this about you, that this is what you feel and beleive and they don't mind, wow thats the kind of tolerance that borders on the idiotic.BTW don't try to say i twisted your words cause remember i have the quotes proven the above;-)
"Why do you think they left Iran?"
If i had to hazard a guess id say they were either part of the Shah's bourgeois of which over 1 million immigrated when the Mul;lahs took power, and are currently peppered along the eastern coast of american, otherwise they are simply secular Iranians who were worried the direction the country was headed in and chose to leave, but there were far fewer of these people, it was mainly the top of Iranian soceity who ran cause they knew since they were within the Shah innner circle that they'd probably be executed when his tyrannical regime created and maintained by the US was finally toppled by popular revolution.
"Why do you think most Muslims want to move OUT?"
Move out from where, what are you even talking Iran?
"It goes without saying...."
It clearly doesn't cause i have no idea what you're talking about.
"As for the land conflict between Muslim and Jews and Christians it is all about religion"
To you it is, in reality religion is just an excuse to express the worst parts of our nature.
"This conflict goes back to Hagar, Abraham and Sarah. "
Really that far back, what about Adam and Eve does it go that far back?
"You miss the point of chosen."
I really doubt that.
"Chosen does not mean they as individuals they are better than anyone else."
"I did not say all Muslims are hateful and want to kill people."
You:
"Arabs hate Jews, it would not matter where Jews live, Islam wants them DEAD, GONE."
""Islam a religion of peace? so much so that they use the Palestinian people are pawns...this is true. Why? The goal? WORLDWIDE DOMINATION For whom? THE ONE AND ONLY ALLAH. This view is not shared by radicals but moderates alike. WHY? It says so in their holy book."
"I believe that there are many people in the Middle East forced to submit who are not really believers."
Evidence?
"In any case the people have no choice."
A person who protests at abortion clinics pontificating about choice, you're hilarious.
"I did not say they were all hateful people."
The quotes speak for themselves.
"But on 9-11 we saw pictures in the streets all over the Islamic World of them cheering in the streets. "
Thats becuse for once the people that routinely destroy their countries, kill their men, women, and children and subject them to tyrannical rule were fuinally getting a taste of their own medicine albeit a proportionally insignificant taste relative to what it inflicts upon them.
"So there is a good portion of them that hate our guts and want us dead."
the ones that hate you hate you not because of some religious difference but because you kill them, you kill their people, you destroy their countries, cities and towns, you prevent democracy for ever taking root by creating, funding and propping up dictators or anyone that will do US bidding which involves usurping a countries wealth at the cost of its majority inhabitants, the examples of this are endless but people like you woudl rather beleive its all religous than look at your acitons, and realise the kind of destruction you have wrought. This is not some extremist position as you would like to beleive, this is more or less the positino outlined by Ron Paul, and he was nearly booed off stage for suggesting it because the truth is always the bitterest pill to swallow, its a lot easier for some american like you to beleive that your country is the greatest in the world, and thus they hate us cause were free, that been a very comforting and popular myth but it is just that a myth.
"I am not going to post them all here but I have links to Islamic leaders who admit they want all the Jews dead."
I really don't see the value in posting hate and saying it represents large populations, i could psot plenty of hate as well, it doesn't prove anything except that there is alot of anger in the world. You seem to think it justify your position somehow, i really don't know how you can think this.
"this is about a side who wants the other eliminated."
Really, and even if you're right, which you're not, your simply indocrinated with hate, but even if you're right how exactly are they going to accomplish that when Isreal is a virtual military superpower that is backed by the world only hyperpower (the US).
"It is fact that Jews are the enemy of Islam"
Ya why don't you say that to your neighbours when you get up for work tommorrow, if they really are muslim i don't think they'll like all that much.
"So for me to state this......is not hateful it is a fact"
No its hateful because you have no real evidence to back it up, and its actually quite obviously a racist opinion, you think its fact because you beleive it, just like you think its a fact that Jesus had supernatural powers, but you see rationalism dictates that these so called facts of yours needs to have something more than your opinion before people that aren't as heavily indocrinated as you are start to beleive they may have some credibility.
You think the corporate controlled media is on the side of the protestors, my God, the stupidity of the human race never ceases to amaze me.
Umm, I never said the media was on the side of the protesters. Obviously you have some cognitive issues if you're calling the human race stupid based on some fictional comment that I didn't make. Wow, this is actually the reason I don't come here much anymore. Straw man arguments are used way too much.
You said: *"It's really not ( as in its not the start of a revolution in the US). The media justs plays it up even though the crowds there aren't nearly as large as most people think (this implies that you beleive the media are inflating the size of the protests in the way they are re[porting them, and thus excerbating the problem) .
Have i misinterpreted you here, if so please tell me exactly how.
"Umm, I never said the media was on the side of the protesters."
You didn't say it you implied it, same thing really.
" Obviously you have some cognitive issues if you're calling the human race stupid based on some fictional comment that I didn't make"
Obviously.
"ow, this is actually the reason I don't come here much anymore."
Really i thought it was because you don't like to be made a fool of.
"Straw man arguments are used way too much."
I see no streaw man argument here but if you can point one out ill conceed immediately.
Have i misinterpreted you here, if so please tell me exactly how.
Very much so. The media isn't necessarily corporate-controlled. I'm saying anything that seems like an exciting or groundbreaking story, they will naturally give it a lot of newstime and attention. That's why you need to take everythin you hear with a grain of salt.
You didn't say it you implied it, same thing really.
No, it's not. You're making assumptions. Trust me, if I was implying something like you say, there's no reason I wouldn't just say it. Hope I cleared that up.
Obviously.
Glad you see it this way.
Really i thought it was because you don't like to be made a fool of.
Nope, not sure why you would think that.
I see no streaw man argument here but if you can point one out ill conceed immediately.
The fact that you are adding to my argument, and then attempting to rebut it ("The media justs plays it up even though the crowds there aren't nearly as large as most people think" -> "this implies that you beleive the media are inflating the size of the protests in the way they are re[porting them, and thus excerbating the problem").
"The media isn't necessarily corporate-controlled"
Yes it is, i mean im not saying nothing on mainstream media is true but on all the fundamental issues the media falls into line with the positions of elite corporate power. The elites set the boundaries
"I'm saying anything that seems like an exciting or groundbreaking story, they will naturally give it a lot of newstime and attention"
Obviously the medai cannot ignore major events(although this was done with teh East Timor massacre by Indonesia which the US supported), especially when it is occuring within its own country but it can characterise these events in a certian way in roder to denigrate them. These protests were ignored for the first two weeks but when political comentators, and intellectuals started lending their supported to the protestors the media knew they had to start reporting, they were hoping it would simply blow over.
"That's why you need to take everythin you hear with a grain of salt."
I agree completely, never ful;ly beleive anything, especially if it comes from government, and only ever beleive something if it has been officially denied.
"The fact that you are adding to my argument, and then attempting to rebut it "
Fair enough if you didn't mean that but it seemed pretty clear that that was what you meant.
It's going to amount to as much as the Tea Party, but that's about it. Most people (the 99%) don't care enough to actually change the status quo. I am just amused by how Tea Party supporters refuse to note the similarities between themselves and the OWS protesters (namely the unorganization, lack of a message, et. al)
The saddest thing that these people think that capitalism is causing their misery, so they cry for more government, yet when government is so big, it will transform itself into a tyrannical state.It was not capitalism that was the problem, but it was crony capitalism. Who is the root cause of crony capitalism, government?
I agree somewhat with your piont, i think the government power needs to be reduced because it was government power that put so much power in the hands of the banks. I think they know why they are there, they want democracy, the system in place now gives them the illusion of democracy, and the people protesting are the people who have recogised that fact.
"They call it the american dream acuse you have to be asleep to beleive it"
i think the government power needs to be reduced because it was government power that put so much power in the hands of the banks.
Wrong, government forced the power into the hands of the banks.
I think they know why they are there, they want democracy, the system in place now gives them the illusion of democracy, and the people protesting are the people who have recogised that fact.
I don't want democracy. Democracy has failed us. Today is self evident of that. Cry to government and he will give.
"Wrong, government forced the power into the hands of the banks."
The ponit is there is a dispicably harmonious relationship between government, corporations and financial insitutions, and their continued looking out for eonanother the cost of the common man needs to stop.
The ponit is there is a dispicably harmonious relationship between government, corporations and financial insitutions, and their continued looking out for eonanother the cost of the common man needs to stop.
Yes, but i don't beleive it's simply the product of concentrating power in the wrong hands, not that there are any right hands, i beleive it's a product of the system itself.
"Because any form of government is unneeded."
Are you suggesting you favour a soceity founded on anarchist principles?
Im actually really pleasantly surprised by that, and that book sounds like a very interesting read, ill have to read it once i finish the work im currently doing, and have some spare time.
Look what we've accomplished under democracy, this is the prosperous and peaceful era in human history, and we built it on the very principles of democracy. Sure the economy has run into a slight snag, but these things happen all the time, no matter your countries political or economic policy. You can't stay in a boom forever. An good man can do evil and an evil man can do good, just like a good system can fail occasionally, and a bad one can succeed. We'd get worse than nowhere if everyone just jumped of the boat as soon as we hit a tiny bit of turbulence, as the OWS is trying to do right now.
BRILLIANT, because everyone knows that all fiction is based entirely on fact, that all futuristic settings are inevitable, that all of fiction is dictated solely by reality and can never say anything, explicitly or otherwise, that is not true
"BRILLIANT, because everyone knows that all fiction is based entirely on fact, that all futuristic settings are inevitable, that all of fiction is dictated solely by reality and can never say anything, explicitly or otherwise, that is not true"
Yes thats exactly what i said, i didn't just ask a quesiton, nice interpretation, and response jackass ;-)
They can try, but let's not forget that they aren't producing anything, while mean while we outside the movement are. The logistics just aren't with them.
I suppose factory workers have the logistics of changing goverment policy on their side while they work most of their days and fail to have time for poltical action...
I wouldn't call it a revolution nor major , but it will have a marginalised influential role in the new political landscape that is forming here the U.S. . The violence and erratic behaviour displayed by some the protester have obviously damped their good-standing with many independents and centrist.
"The violence and erratic behaviour displayed by some the protester have obviously damped their good-standing with many independents and centrist."
I have seen no evidence of protestors being violent, i have however seen a treasure trove of evidence of police officers indiscriminately attacking peacful protestors.
there all complaining that they dont have enough money, but they have enough to have an ipod or smart phone ect... they just dont want to pay for anything that they want. and they think that they can get the rich to pay of all of their student loans and other micelanous things. WHATS GOING ON! if you dont want to pay for it then dont buy it. another problem is that the y say their just like the tea party, even though in 40 days of protest their have 2,500 arrests, 4 rapes, and $2,400,000 worth of expences...(most likely alll paid by the government.) the tea party has 989 days of protest under their belt and none of those negativities. im so sick of only paying attention to the good patrs of the lieberal party and discrediting anyone who speacks out against it. ex: (random polotician)"i oppose obama's bill" obama-"oh my gosh, your a racist, communism rules". stop pullig the same race card over and over again, if you want to debate something, try using actual facts instead of insults.
The tea party has their millionaire organizers, while occupy lacks the astroturf. That alone explains the differences you pointed out. Although interestingly enough, 1/3 of millionaires support OWS
Try taking your own advice, and stop pulling the communism card.
No because, these protesters are mostly teenagers who are too lazy too even TRY to get a job. Instead of protesting, they could actually FIND a job. also winter is acoming so when it gets really chilly, they'll all be gone. talk about a 1%.....OF PROTESTERS!!!
They're just reworked hippies. Infiltrated by sieu and ACORN (yes, they still exist) and approved by Brer Prez, The US Communist party, the US NAZI party, the insane prez of Iran, and every other dystopian socialist totalitarian fool.
Wrong OWS is not any of those things. Its more of a Libertarian movement. Not the sort of Libertarians who started the tea party. The more left wing type Libertarians. Socialists and Communists see OWS as a good way to get their view points out as well. Thats why you see both the Nazi party and Communist party supporting them.
I would disagree, and since you haven't provided a shred of evidence to the contrary i remain steadfast in my disagreement.
"Its more of a Libertarian movement."
I am prepared to admit that the people who call themselves conservatives in the US have stayed well clear of the movement, my point is that people protesting as the real conservatives as they are calling for the restoration of the rules of law.
"Socialists and Communists see OWS as a good way to get their view points out as well."
The evidence is all over youtube. Don't just get all your info from the TV. Watch what the protesters themselves have been posting or take a look from the other side of the looking glass by watching a left wing news station. There are a few out there if you search for them. I've seen videos with people from many factions speaking and not about anti-Capitalism. Most of them just don't like how the rich keep getting away with a bunch of bullshit that anyone else would be put in jail for. Many preach about as I said before Libertarian values. But their are also those that want Socialism, Communist, Fascism, and even Anarchism. But those are a select few next to the Libertarians. Also the movement has grown beyond just politics. There are a few Muslim groups out their that feel like they have been discriminated against and they want to be able to practice their religion without fear of persecution. Now as you may have guessed I'm a Communist. While a lot of my comrades back up OWS and think its going to change things I don't feel the same. When the very people you are protesting against can stand right in front of you and laugh at you without fear that just shows your protests as they are now aren't doing anything.
I have a few clips from OWS on my youtube page so I'll just link that here to give you a little head start.
"The evidence is all over youtube. Don't just get all your info from the TV. "
Thanks for the advice you're clearly a much more enlightened free thinking individual than myself;-)
"Watch what the protesters themselves have been posting or take a look from the other side of the looking glass by watching a left wing news station."
You simply haven't understood my point, i know what you said is correct but what i am saying is that the people protesting represent true conservative values, like most values systems in the US conservatism has been corrupted.
Another good example is the misuse of term libertarian, and its mistaken association of capitalism with libertarianism.
"I've seen videos with people from many factions speaking and not about anti-Capitalism."
You do realise who you disputed right?
I was arguing this exact same point with Troy8, he was trying to say the movement is anti-capitalist which it is clearly not.
"Now as you may have guessed I'm a Communist."
Zdrah-stvooy tovarisch.
"While a lot of my comrades back up OWS and think its going to change things I don't feel the same."
Why not? Surely you must optimistic that some change will occur, i mean don't think the movement will effect radical change, and it definitely won't occur instantaneously but given enough time i beleive the message's of OWS will find their way into mainstream american discourse, and will seep into the conciousness of the average man leading to incrimental change that may prove significant in the longterm.
"When the very people you are protesting against can stand right in front of you and laugh at you without fear that just shows your protests as they are now aren't doing anything."
So what would you suggest?
"I have a few clips from OWS on my youtube page so I'll just link that here to give you a little head start."
I find your continued insinuation that i don't have the capacity to objectively inform myself on contemporary social issues quite patronising.
I'm not going to comment on all that other stuff you said because I don't feel like it anymore. But I will answer this question. So what would you suggest?
I would suggest a violent revolution. Stop taking beating after beating by the cops, go home, get your guns, come back, and fucking kill them! Then find and kill the bankers while also demanding the removal of Capitalism and the installment of pure Communism. Then get rid of the government and any form of money. Then let the people govern their own states and make their own laws. But that's just the basics of what I want. As you can see true Communism isn't to far off from Anarchism. If you see a group of Anarchists you can be sure there will be a few Communists with them and vise versa.
"I'm not going to comment on all that other stuff you said because I don't feel like it anymore. "
Fair enough, im sure if you disagreed strong enough you would.
"I would suggest a violent revolution"
I was worried you were going to say that, thats exactly why i asked the question.
"Stop taking beating after beating by the cops, go home, get your guns, come back, and fucking kill them!"
They haven't killed anyone so firstly they don't deserve it, secondly do you really think that would be positive step in acheiving your aims?
"Then find and kill the bankers"
As much i find violence against my fellow man to be disgusting i can't really bring myself to disgree with this statement, especially knowing what i know.
"while also demanding the removal of Capitalism and the installment of pure Communism."
My views are exceptionally left wing not that i like to admit it cause i hate labels but i don't think pure communism would work, there is simply no historical example of it ever being sucessful.
Now i do beleive an alternative is necessary, and i haven't settled on any one particular, but i do beleive a system more akin to anarcho-syndicalism could take root, and be successful.
I have debated the feasibility of this many times, and i have come to recognise that the operational details of system such as this so radically different from the one currently being employed would for the msot part have to ironed our before the system could be implemented.
As for pure romantic communism (at the risk of greatly antagonising you) i do not think its could ever function as intended, at least i have never seen an argument that convinced me it could work as intended, and there are no historical examples of it ever being employed successfully.
I don't like admitting this cause i greatly respect and admire communist advocates such as yourself, and i was one for long time, but not anymore.
We simply can't ignore the historical performance the various systems tried in the forge of history.
"Then let the people govern their own states and make their own laws."
Yes but there are many alterations necessary to prevent tyrannies from being established, and dictators stepping into the power vacuum created.
"As you can see true Communism isn't to far off from Anarchism."
A system such as anarcho-syndicalism i think has the best chance of working.
"If you see a group of Anarchists you can be sure there will be a few Communists with them and vise versa."
Again, i am loathe to resort to placing labels on myself but if pressed i would have to admit the label 'anarchist' sufficiently describes my views.
I have never actually heard of anarcho-syndicalism. But I will look it up. For now I feel like there is nothing else to gain from continuing this discussion so I won't. But it has been interesting.
These people are jokers, their movement is pathetic, and their goal laughable, they claim to represent the 99% when far less people support their movement.
From what I've seen of the occupy people so far, they seem like they're all over the place.
They do not have one consistent, clear identifiable message that they can unify behind.
Besides, let's be real, no one gives a shit if you march and carry signs. They just laugh at you. We live in a capitalist society. Until people are able to impact a bottom line, no one cares. Lawsuits, boycotts, loss of brand royalty have had major impacts on corporate america. But not protests. It's sad, but we've come to the point where if you want something done, you almost have to sue someone.