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Debate Info

127
52
Bullshit! It's true! You can change!
Debate Score:179
Arguments:91
Total Votes:206
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 Bullshit! (56)
 
 It's true! You can change! (35)

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Pray the gay away!

Do you believe these camps have ever truly converted someone from gay to straight?

Do you think it's possible to convert?

Most "ex-gays" admit to the fact that they never really stopped having the gay urges, but that they've learned to "suppress" them (just like you suppress an urge to sin) and lead a straight life. Is that "conversion"?

Bullshit!

Side Score: 127
VS.

It's true! You can change!

Side Score: 52
5 points

You can surpress your emotions, but you'll never really be happy. And potentially, one day, you'll figure out it's not worth it and leave your wife and kids for another man.

So you have to ask yourself, would you like to live that lie to the world and yourself?

If someone is religious, I can understand that wanting to be straight to satisfy your parents expectations. However, as a woman, I don't want to wake up one morning and have my husband of ten years tell me he is gay and is leaving me for another man. I'd rather have married someone sexually attracted to me.

Side: Bullshit!
4 points

You are who you are. My philosophy is that being gay is not a sin and that it is completely normal, just like being straight. I am a practicing Catholic, so I should follow everything the Pope says, right? Wrong. I think it is impossible to "convert" to a different orientation and I think it is perfectly acceptable to be gay because why would God put some people on this Earth, make them gay, and then feel it was a sin and deem it immoral. Being gay is a "sin" by some because man deemed it that way.

Being converted is impossible, but suppressing these gay urges is possible. Changing your sexual orientation is more impossible than changing your gender, skin color (not including getting tan/pale), and height (after puberty). :)

Side: Bullshit!
4 points

This is what Freud had to say to a mother that asked him to treat her son:

"I gather from your letter that your son is a homosexual. I am most impressed by the fact that you do not mention this term yourself in your information about him. May I question you why you avoid it? Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation; it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function, produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them. (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime –and a cruelty, too. If you do not believe me, read the books of Havelock Ellis. By asking me if I can help [your son], you mean, I suppose, if I can abolish homosexuality and make normal heterosexuality take its place. The answer is, in a general way we cannot promise to achieve it. In a certain number of cases we succeed in developing the blighted germs of heterosexual tendencies, which are present in every homosexual; in the majority of cases it is no more possible. It is a question of the quality and the age of the individual. The result of treatment cannot be predicted.

What analysis can do for your son runs in a different line. If he is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency, whether he remains homosexual or gets changed."

The only "proof" these camps have on the success of "conversion" is the Masters and Johnson book called "Homosexuality in Perspective" in which they claimed to have converted 70% of the participants. That evidence has now come out to be fake. Read:

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/faked-evidence-of-gay-conversion/?hp

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=homosexuality-cure-masters-johnson

I still don't think that these camps are really operating in good faith. They may use people's Christan beliefs to sell their services, but they do so by twisting and manipulating those beliefs. So ultimately it's all about the money.

Those who really did it in good faith, soon realized what they were doing and are now spending their lives trying to stop it. Some of them have even issued apologies. Read:

http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/apology

The fact that some parents are forcing their teenage children to these places is tragic and verges on child abuse. Mainstream Christians and Churches should come forward and condemn these camps and their practices. This is religious oppression to say the least.

Imagine what the reaction would be if a clinic claimed that they can make all black people white. That black people are not in God's plan and that all black people should do all they can to rid themselves of this sin/curse. Imagine if people took themselves and their children to have their blackness bleached out so they can be white. Would we allow it? Hell no! But yet again, because these groups operate under the religious cloak, they manage to escape. We are now used to ignoring them because we kind of "expect" such lunacy to come from extremely religious people. These are not Christian groups though. These are bigoted groups that have found refuge under the Christian cloak. A bit like every other extreme religious organization really...

Finally, to end with humor, I couldn't put it better than Butters in South Park, so here it is:

"All right. All right that does it! [turns around and faces the crowd] I am sick and tired of everyone telling me I'm confused! I wasn't confused until other people started tellin' me I was! You know what I think? I think maybe you are the ones who are confused! I'm not gonna be confused anymore just because you say I should be! My name is Butters, I'm eight years old, I'm blood type O, and I'm bicurious! And even that's okay! Because if I'm bicurious, and I'm somehow made from God, then I think your GOD must be a little bicurious himself!

Side: Bullshit!

Suppressing the 'urge' to be gay is pretty much like suppressing the urge to be straight. It cannot be done unless you're a priest who cannot be either!!! If one speaks of homosexuality as a sin then I would guess they're not gay at all. Of course I'd have a hard time believing that they were anything else. If one goes to these 'camps' to rid themselves of the 'demons' which possess them I'd still have a difficult time believing they were anything else...but they think they're a vile sinner!

A person is what they are, nothing more and nothing less. If your desire is to be a priest then I can see that celibacy would come into play but that would interfere no matter what. So what's the big deal about praying gay away? You can pray all you wish to but that doesn't mean you can pray away the essence of your being. Yes, I think it's bullshit, clear and simple.

Side: Bullshit!
3 points

aaaah! hahahahahahahaha! AAAAAAAH! HAHAHAHAHA!

Holy shit,

I'm sorry, but I find nothing on earth funnier than a bunch of Christians trying to convert gay people from... gayness I guess. I know it's serious, but it's just so goddamn funny.

Like, how many gay porn movies could that be the plot for?

I just love it.

Really, there's only one kind of Christian who really cares that much about "saving" a gay person, and that's a gay Christian, who incedently hates themselves for it... I mean, who wouldn't want to be a self-hating lunatic who worships invisible beings and injures his own cock nightly as he furiously masterbates to the latest jockey underwear ad then immediately feels guilty for it? Sounds like FUN! Where do I sign up?

I'm considering finding one of these gay conversion places here in LV, there has to be one, and finding a pretty little Christian chick to "cure" my gayness in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus H. Christ. I mean you can't reason with these people, might as well have fun with it.

Hey Alterion, that should be the next movie you make, I'll write the script if you're down.

Side: Bullshit!

This is one of the worst things about religion. People trying to force you to act against your very nature for no other reason then some obscure passage in a fucking book.

It has been undeniably proven that sexual preference is something that we are born with. It is not a choice.

I have no doubt that people can convince gullible homosexuals that what they are feeling is wrong...make them feel guilty for feelings that are completely natural. They may even be able to make them act straight. I can't imagine that this is good for someones mental health, however, and I am sure that these feelings that are being repressed will manifest themselves in a negative way later in life.

If you are straight, imagine being forced to have sex with someone of the same gender. Does that sound repulsive to you? Well now you might understand how homosexuals who are forced to go to these kind of camps feel.

There is nothing wrong with being gay, just like there is nothing wrong with being black, blue eyed, or female. It's not a choice, and the sooner people learn to accept those who are different, the sooner we can end nonsense like this.

Side: Bullshit!
yesiam(28) Disputed
1 point

"It has been undeniably proven that sexual preference is something that we are born with. It is not a choice."

WHAT? LOL, you just come up with your own "facts"? It has never been "undeniably proven". It's a theory; no more, no less. I personally believe most gay men are that way because daddy touched their naughty places when they were a kid.

Side: It's true! You can change!
1 point

Well perhaps you are unfamiliar with the biological evidence, of which there is ample. I will just concentrate here on the observed homosexuality in nature.

African Buffalo

African Elephant

Agile Wallaby

Amazon River Dolphin(Boto)

American Bison

Antelope

Asian Elephant

Asiatic Lion

Asiatic Mouflon

Atlantic Spotted Dolphin

Australian Sea Lion

Barasingha

Barbary Sheep

Beluga

Bharal

Bighorn Sheep

Black Bear

Blackbuck

Black-footed Rock Wallaby

Black-tailed Deer

Bonnet Macaque

Bonobo

Bottlenose Dolphin

Bowhead Whale

Brazilian Guinea Pig

Bridled Dolphin

Brown Bear

Brown Capuchin

Brown Long-eared Bat

Brown Rat

Buffalo

Caribou

Cat (domestic)

Cattle (domestic)

Cheetah

Collared Peccary

Commerson's Dolphin

Common Brushtail Possum

Common Chimpanzee

Common Dolphin

Common Marmoset

Common Pipistrelle

Common Raccoon

Common Tree Shrew

Cotton-top Tamarin

Crab-eating Macaque

Crested Black Macaque

Cui

Dall's Sheep

Daubenton's Bat

Dog (domestic)

Doria's Tree Kangaroo

Dugong

Dwarf Cavy

Dwarf Mongoose

Eastern Cottontail Rabbit

Eastern Grey Kangaroo

Elk

Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)

European Bison

Fallow Deer

False Killer Whale

Fat-tailed Dunnart

Fin Whale

Fox

Gazelle

Gelada Baboon

Giraffe

Goat (Domestic)

Golden Monkey

Gorilla

Grant's Gazelle

Grey-headed Flying Fox

Grey Seal

Grey squirrel

Grey Whale

Grey Wolf

Grizzly Bear

Guinea Pig (Domestic)

Hamadryas Baboon

Hamster (Domestic)

Hanuman Langur

Harbor Porpoise

Harbor Seal

Himalayan Tahr

Hoary Marmot

Horse (domestic)

Human

Indian Fruit Bat

Indian Muntjac

Indian Rhinoceros

Japanese Macaque

Javelina

Kangaroo Rat

Killer Whale

Koala

Kob

Larga Seal

Least Chipmunk

Lechwe

Lesser Bushbaby

Lion

Lion-tailed Macaque

Lion Tamarin

Little Brown Bat

Livingstone's Fruit Bat

Long-eared Hedgehog

Long-footed Tree Shrew

Macaque

Markhor

Marten

Matschie's Tree Kangaroo

Moco

Mohol Galago

Moor Macaque

Moose

Mountain Goat

Mountain Tree Shrew

Mountain Zebra

Mouse (domestic)

Moustached Tamarin

Mule Deer

Musk-ox

Natterer's Bat

New Zealand Sea Lion

Nilgiri Langur

Noctule

North American Porcupine

Northern Elephant Seal

Northern Fur Seal

Northern Quoll

Olympic Marmot

Orangutan

Orca

Pacific Striped Dolphin

Patas Monkey

Pere David's Deer

Pig (Domestic)

Pig-tailed Macaque

Plains Zebra

Polar Bear

Pretty-faced Wallaby

Proboscis Monkey

Pronghorn

Przewalski's Horse

Puku

Quokka

Rabbit

Raccoon Dog

Red Deer

Red Fox

Red Kangaroo

Red-necked Wallaby

Red Squirrel

Reeves's Muntjac

Reindeer

Rhesus Macaque

Right Whale

Rock Cavy

Rodrigues Fruit Bat

Roe Deer

Rufous Bettong

Rufous-naped Tamarin

Rufous Rat Kangaroo

Saddle-back Tamarin

Savanna Baboon

Sea Otter

Serotine Bat

Sheep (Domestic)

Siamang

Sika Deer

Slender Tree Shrew

Sooty Mangabey

Sperm Whale

Spinifex Hopping Mouse

Spinner Dolphin

Spotted Hyena

Spotted Seal

Squirrel Monkey

Striped Dolphin

Stuart's Marsupial Mouse

Stumptail Macaque

Swamp Deer

Swamp Wallaby

Takhi

Talapoin

Tammar Wallaby

Tasmanian Devil

Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo

Thinhorn Sheep

Thomson's Gazelle

Tiger

Tonkean Macaque

Tucuxi

Urial

Vampire Bat

Verreaux's Sifaka

Vervet

Vicuna

Walrus

Wapiti

Warthog

Waterbuck

Water Buffalo

Weeper Capuchin

Western Grey Kangaroo

West Indian Manatee

Whiptail Wallaby

White-faced Capuchin

White-fronted Capuchin

White-handed Gibbon

White-lipped Peccary

White-tailed Deer

Wild Cavy

Wild Goat

Wisent

Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby

Yellow-toothed Cavy

That is a list of mammals in which homosexuality has been observed. In order for your theory to hold true, there must be a lot of animal child molestation going on. If you want further evidence I would be happy to provide. I would merely suggest that in the future you know something about the topic of which you are speaking before spewing the verbal diarrhea you called an argument.

Side: Bullshit!
2 points

Why change from who you are! God is all forgiving so would forgive you for being gay anyway and hes all powerfull so he must have made gay people in the first place.

Side: Bullshit!
yesiam(28) Disputed
1 point

Forgiveness is a gift from God,; a gift is not a gift unless you receive it. So for God to forgive you for being Gay, "you" as a gay person would have to receive the gift, which would require you to realize you need forgiveness. And logic follows that if you need forgiveness, then you were doing something wrong.

Side: It's true! You can change!
2 points

I think Jesus was gay. Praying the gay way.

Anyway, the whole thing is sort of dark age. Get over it.

Side: Bullshit!
2 points

If your just suppressing your gay urges, then your gay. There is nothing wrong with being gay. If God doesn't like gay people, then why'd he make people gay?

Side: Bullshit!
2 points

Is this even a legitament argument? I'm only asking this because if I was lesbian, I wouldn't like having a load of religionist propaganda shoved down my throat. Bein gay/lesbian/bisexual isn't a choice, it's how you were born, it's like trying to change your gender by thought alone, it can't be done! Come on, you said yourself in the description that 'ex-gays' have just learned to supress their urges and try to be straight. It's like if being gay was normal, you would have to kiss, etc, etc with the same gender as you, which wouldn't be very nice, would it?

Side: Bullshit!
2 points

Fuck this. You like the same sex, get over it. You can't freaking pray how you feel about someone away. I support love no matter what the gender.

Side: Bullshit!
2 points

It is impossible to change your sexuality..point blank, I don't believe sexuality can be changed. If it were that simple then many many people would do it. In the early stages of awakening, before they accept themselves, young homosexuals often wish to change and try very hard to. They don't succeed. If it were possible to change your sexuality there would be very few homosexuals in the world because it takes most of us a long time to fully come to terms with who we are and accept ourselves.

Side: Bullshit!
2 points

No you can not change who you are no matter how much "therapy" you go to.

As recently as the last century, teachers would tie a child’s left hand in a vain attempt to make them right-handed. While a left-handed person can force himself to write right-handed, just as a gay person can force himself to live a heterosexual lifestyle, that doesn’t make the leftie a rightie or the gay man straight. Some people (the ambidextrous or the bisexual) would find it relatively easy to move from one behavior to the other, but for most of us, changing our sexuality would be as impossible as learning to write as precisely or throw a ball as accurately with our non-dominant hand as with our dominant hand.

Side: Bullshit!
TriPodMonkey(39) Disputed
1 point

That's true noone can change who you love.

But that doesn't mean that you won't change.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mostly because I am a lesbian, but lately I have been having different sexual needs. I'm not saying that I will change but I am saying that sometimes we have no controll over what/who we love. Even if I LOVE the same sex (which I do) I still may find myself wanting a man.

Side: It's true! You can change!

"Pray the Gay away" is just a way of saying " I have hate towards people who aren't like me". In my opinion that quote along with anyone who uses it is nothing. That's like a man saying "Pray the females away" vise versa.

If my child was born gay I wouldn't hate, I wouldn't send him off because even if he completely commits to being gay who says that he won't change? He may end up marrying a woman. Just because someone says they are gay does not mean that he/she will be gay forever. People change along with emotions, intellectuall thoughts, sexual attractions, and sexual orientation. A lot of people say " being gay is a choice" sometimes it is and sometimes it not. If you say that you are gay or lesbian at a young age, who knows for sure that you will be gay/lesbian forever?

NO ONE can determine who other people will end up loving.

Side: Bullshit!
1 point

This is crap. You cant change a person if he or she was born that way. How rude can you be on this. You have no heart.

Side: Bullshit!
JakeJ(3254) Banned
-2 points
Pineapple(1448) Disputed
2 points

It's not, jake. This is a sound and realevent debate.

Grab your accountabilibuddy and get on the ride. This is gonna be good.

Side: Bullshit!

Great south park reference.

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.

Side: Bullshit!
2 points

Somehow I am not surprised that you would go for the "hate mongering" argument. Does this debate look like an attack to your religion to you? Because I can tell you that it's not. Those camps have NOTHING to do with Christianity and debating their practices is neither hate mongering nor is it an attack towards the religion those camps have attached themselves to. I put the Straight to Jesus picture on there to expose this manipulative attachment, not to criticize Christianity.

Side: Bullshit!
ledhead818(637) Disputed
1 point

Because you posted on this side of the debate and said the debate was hate mongering for a second I was like "Wow JakeJ realizes that trying to cure homosexuals is a fake and horrible practice." I was really proud that you were starting to learn to be tolerant of other people. I didn't understand though why Pineapple was disagreeing with you. Then I realized that you were saying this debate is hateful toward Christianity, and I facepalmed.

Many Christians do think they need to save gays by converting them to heterosexuality. This is a real and common practice. I don't see how making a debate about the efficacy of trying to change someone's sexual preference is hate mongering. It's funny how you are actually pretty bigoted toward other people, but whenever anyone mentions Christianity you freak out and say they are hateful.

Side: It's true! You can change!
2 points

He's actually being pretty douchey here, I think. He deemed this debate spam so he won't have defend his underendable point of view, and look like an idiot again. He's burnt out on it.

Side: It's true! You can change!
1 point

Well, human beings are complicated creatures and it is POSSIBLE that someone can be changed... it doesn't mean that shoving religion down someone's throat will actually do it.

Really, it would take extreme therapy to do so... possibly Aversion Therapy, but through this it will also result in many other bad things.

Becoming Gay is part of an Unstable Extrovert (usually, but not always). This doesn't mean that Unstable Extroverts are more likely to be gay, though, so don't bitch.

Unstable people (meant in a psychology way, not an insulting way so calm the fuck down) have a fluster of emotions that can alter their perspective on things and they are easily influential, especially at an early age. Note: if an unstable child grows up with a gay parent it won't rub off on them, so please don't get any ideas. It usually comes from a series of incidents or events that are very subtle.

So, if an Unstable Gay were to want to become straight for some reason, there is a slight possibility that it can be done. usually, the gay will easily relapse, but there can be a change in their sexuality through extensive and extreme therapy... but back to the relapse, it's pretty easy for them to go back to their old ways... it's what they grew up with and understand.

So... it's not exactly impossible to change someone's sexuality.

Side: It's true! You can change!
ledhead818(637) Disputed
5 points

"Since 2006, the use of aversion therapy to treat homosexuality has been in violation of the codes of conduct and professional guidelines of the American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association."

Aversion therapy is not a widely accepted practice. Additionally it only stops the behavior, not the desire. So homosexuals might not have sex, but they would still want to so they are still gay. You can't change someone's sexuality. You can force them from acting upon it, but you can't change it.

As a sidenote one of my favorite books/movies deals with aversion therapy: A Clockwork Orange

Side: Bullshit!
ThePyg(6737) Disputed
1 point

I mean Aversion Therapy as an example.

What it does is make the idea of having sex with a man or even the image of another man in a sexual way as grotesque to them.

but that as a side note, human sexuality itself is not IMPOSSIBLE to change.

Side: It's true! You can change!
2 points

So would it be possible to turn a straight person gay, using the same or similar methods?

Side: Bullshit!
1 point

Probably. I've never conducted an experiment myself (all types are considered unethical now). I think women are a great example on how sensitive the human sexuality can sometimes be. Mainly because women are extremely emotionally unstable, and their sexual attraction to someone is 80% emotional. With men it's harder, but the gay ones are usually much more emotionally unstable than the straights.

Side: It's true! You can change!
1 point

think of it as kicking a bad habit...ok...u know how the e harmony ads

make the people look like they were ment to be together...im not saying i believe in internet dating...but studies show that people with certain face structures are attracted to people with a certain other facial structure

how's that for a responce from a 14-year-old!

Side: It's true! You can change!
Rachelahtwin(6) Disputed
2 points

What does eHarmony and facial structures have to do with "kicking a bad habit?" Also, being gay isn't a habit. Its a part of who you are. Its not like biting nails where you can just get rid of it.

How's that for a response from a twelve year old!

Side: Bullshit!
-1 points

My cousin's brother-in-law changed so yes, you can change.

Side: It's true! You can change!
nigelc(49) Disputed
6 points

That's not from prayer, that's from the overwhelming social pressure to be just like everyone else. It's pretty sad.

Side: Bullshit!
Tugman(749) Disputed
2 points

It was his choice because he knew it was wrong.

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of

Side: It's true! You can change!
republican(69) Disputed
0 points

How is that "pretty sad?" Homosexuality is immoral and wrong!

Side: It's true! You can change!
MKIced(2510) Disputed
6 points

I love anecdotal evidence when supporting an argument. But are you 100% sure that he is "cured"? I am almost certain, even though I don't know him, that he is just suppressing his homosexual nature and acting straight....

Side: Bullshit!
1 point

He got married to a woman and has a son or a daughter. I have not talked to him but I assume he changed, because he goes to a Catholic church.

Side: It's true! You can change!
HGrey87(750) Disputed
3 points

And I'm sure it's going to work for Larry Craig, too. When will you Christians understand that you suck just as much cock as we do, but in a different way? :P

(Was that a great way to cultivate cooperation or what?)

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot to mention the almost utter inadmissability of anecdotal evidence in a debate. We're debating a system to effect change on many people, so unless you can find statistical trends that back it up, it's bunk.

Side: Bullshit!
-1 points

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Side: It's true! You can change!