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1.) I once prayed to god as a child that when I throw a nail it will point to my house, as a test of faith as my house was 30 meters away and in plain sight (rural area)... it worked it pointed at my house 5 out of the seven times.
2.) As another test I made a prayer to satan, for my father to get a promotion... it worked. He got promoted to supervisor of the metro police, sweet deal.
3.) Another test of faith was another prayer to satan, for my father to find happiness in finding a new girlfriend... he met a gal named Stacy whom he is still with.
So in conclusion I thought BS was going on if Satan did better things than 'god': so it is either the same being, Religion has things backwards, or it was all coincidence. I soon became a rationalist. I once received an offer to go under one of 2 street lights from 2:50Am to 3:10Am, for 'payment' I think it was all in my head... however a dream recently told me that the offer still stands. I think I have been slightly crazy throughout the whole thing...
so it is either the same being, Religion has things backwards, or it was all coincidence.
I can think of many other possibilities.
I once received an offer to go under one of 2 street lights from 2:50Am to 3:10Am, for 'payment' I think it was all in my head... however a dream recently told me that the offer still stands. I think I have been slightly crazy throughout the whole thing...
Precisely the danger found in meddling with the occult.
...and what would entertain or validate such distortions. An opinion does not always equate to an argument. This goes true for my own statement (to which yours is a response). Perhaps we should focus on the matter at hand, as opposed to attacking one another.
Well, prayer is not simply the act of asking God to do something for you or another. Praying literally means conversation with God. You can ask for anything and everything and conceivably never receive any of that which you asked for. Prayer brings you closer to God, just like speaking to a friend or stranger makes you closer to that person. When one prays, it pleases God. There is a very common misconception about prayer, and I hope I have made this easier to understand.
Well, prayer is not simply the act of asking God to do something for you or another. Praying literally means conversation with God. You can ask for anything and everything and conceivably never receive any of that which you asked for.
So in other words, Jesus lied.
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Prayer brings you closer to God, just like speaking to a friend or stranger makes you closer to that person.
Actually, it's nothing at all like speaking to a friend. A friend doesn't ignore you when you need help. If you really need a friend to do something, he or she will do it. An imaginary friend however, is much less reliable, as you've come to accept.
There is a very common misconception about prayer, and I hope I have made this easier to understand.
I suppose the common misconception is that the Bible is the authoritative word on prayer, when all this time, it's actually been you. Thank you for clearing this up for everybody.
Pray about getting to know him first. ANYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN ME. Faith is the key. YOu may say you had faith when you asked him, but it is not true. YOur heart is not in the right place. FAITH.
Pray about getting to know him first. ANYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN ME. Faith is the key. YOu may say you had faith when you asked him, but it is not true. YOur heart is not in the right place. FAITH.
Pray to get to know him first, is what im saying. If you dont beleive in him and asking him to do something for you dont go together. How can you pray to someone you dont beleive in. If you dont beleive in him, I beleive your focus first needs to be asking for forgiveness of your sins or please help me to get to know you. Please lead me to you. You have to take that step of faith. Invite him into you first in prayer. Walk with him. Talk to him, spend some time to get to know him.
yes. I have walked with him. He lives in me. I am apart of the body.
Excellent. So you've met all the conditions to having God actually do something when you pray to him as you've laid them out.
So in that case, why haven't you asked him to rid the world of cancer, hunger and child abuse? Either you're a selfish piece of garbage, or a liar. Which is it?
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus did not lie. Read this:
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless - Psalms 84: 11
Basically, God will grant you what ever you desire, when you become so close to God, through prayer, reading His Holy Word, and walking with Him. Your desires must be His desires.
Actually, it's nothing at all like speaking to a friend. A friend doesn't ignore you when you need help. If you really need a friend to do something, he or she will do it. An imaginary friend however, is much less reliable, as you've come to accept.
God does not ignore you if there are no walls between the both of you. God has three basic answers to every prayer. Yes, No, Wait. He will rather grant you what you pray for, say no, or have you wait.
No, the Bible is a really big book created by a bunch of MEN who decided it would be cool to write about a prophet named Jesus, who really inspired them, and because he was so great, they decided to exaggerate his abilities. Dude, the Bible is not the authority of anything with the exception of Christianity.
"Actually, it's nothing at all like speaking to a friend."
When did you last try talking to God, and actually tried? I can tell you that millions around the globe can tell you He has never let them down.
A friend doesn't ignore you when you need help.
He does not ignore us at all. When we are angry, we get angry at God and our sin makes us far from him. We don't even try to comunicate, but blame him for ignoring us when he ISN'T!
"If you really need a friend to do something, he or she will do it. An imaginary friend however, is much less reliable, as you've come to accept."
Millions have needed God to heal them, their Earthly friends haven't had the power to, but God has, even if they are athiests.
When did you last try talking to God, and actually tried? I can tell you that millions around the globe can tell you He has never let them down.
Really? Never let them down? Give me an example of something you asked God for and then tell me how he didn't let you down.
Millions have needed God to heal them, their Earthly friends haven't had the power to, but God has, even if they are athiests
He doesn't seem to have the power to heal more than 10000 children a year in the United States alone who are diagnosed with cancer. In fact, nearly 2000 of them die every single year. Could you imagine having the power to take cancer away from a 2 year old and not doing it? I suppose he would, but nobody asked him to right? Is that what you believe? And why does anybody need to ask him to in the first place? If you had the power to save a child's life, would you just let him or her die because nobody asked you not to?
And another thing. Isn't it funny how God only "cures" things science already has an answer for? What the fuck does God have against amputees? Tell me that spadedouche, when was the last time God healed an amputated limb?
Dude dont dis my frend u no He doesn't seem to have the power to heal more than 10000 children well maybe dats becasue people like u dis him all the time sayin hes not real maybe thats what they do too
Dude dont dis my frend u no He doesn't seem to have the power to heal more than 10000 children well maybe dats becasue people like u dis him all the time sayin hes not real maybe thats what they do
So you're saying God wants toddlers to die from cancer because they don't have sufficient evidence to conclude he exists?
I think that's what you're saying, but as I'm sure you can appreciate, it's hard to tell with you being functionally illiterate and all.
Teaching us medicine! Programs and fundraisers' success, etc.
Now I get it; Jesus died for our sins and toddlers with cancer died for our fundraisers...it all makes sense now.
You don't even know anything about a God you reject.
Like I said before, I know he's pretty inconsistent in the prayer department when it comes to things we can fix without him, and worse, he doesn't seem to have the foggiest idea how to help amputees.
Now I get it; Jesus died for our sins and toddlers with cancer died for our fundraisers...it all makes sense now.
What are you even talking about? Do you even know what relief groups are for?
Like I said before, I know he's pretty inconsistent in the prayer department when it comes to things we can fix without him, and worse, he doesn't seem to have the foggiest idea how to help amputees.
So you'd say that us knowing how to help an amputee or any sick person through the knowledge we've learned was devoid of God's help?
So you'd say that us knowing how to help an amputee or any sick person through the knowledge we've learned was devoid of God's help?
God's help? Either he can't regenerate an amputated limb, or he he won't. In either case, he's worthless. And if advances in medical science are the result of God's so-called help, why has it taken him 2000 years to provide enough "help" for the far from perfect solutions available today? Why is he helping with this at all? Shouldn't he be focusing his "help" in areas where children starve to death before the age of five? Why did he even create the need for people to eat in the first place let alone fail to provide the means to feed them?
Oh the mental gymnastics your tiny brain must be doing on a regular basis to apologize for your worthless deity. At some point you've got to ask yourself why you do it.
God's help? Either he can't regenerate an amputated limb, or he he won't. In either case, he's worthless.
I believe you're confusing Earth and Heaven. Heaven is where God actually is, so yes, he does heal/regenerate limbs, cure ailments, etc.
And if advances in medical science are the result of God's so-called help, why has it taken him 2000 years to provide enough "help" for the far from perfect solutions available today?
Now you're just being silly. If it took us 100 years you'd be arguing "Why has it taken him 100 years..."
Why is he helping with this at all? Shouldn't he be focusing his "help" in areas where children starve to death before the age of five?
I notice you forgot about relief organisations' success.
Why did he even create the need for people to eat in the first place let alone fail to provide the means to feed them?
You should read the Bible. There you would actually understand the God you're rejecting, and it will answer your queries.
Oh the mental gymnastics your tiny brain must be doing on a regular basis to apologize for your worthless deity.
"Worthless deity" funny, seeing as how you've never even read a Bible or Prayed to God.
At some point you've got to ask yourself why you do it.
So that I don't lose my dignity and end up like you.
God's help? Either he can't regenerate an amputated limb, or he he won't. In either case, he's worthless.
I believe you're confusing Earth and Heaven. Heaven is where God actually is, so yes, he does heal/regenerate limbs, cure ailments, etc.
So you're saying God doesn't answer prayers for earthly intervention, thereby admitting prayer has no effect.
Now you're just being silly. If it took us 100 years you'd be arguing "Why has it taken him 100 years..."
Of course I would, and you still wouldn't have an answer. Before antibiotics were invented (something I'm sure you fully believe was a result of invisible sky daddy "helping" again), a simple infection was often fatal. So if antibiotics came from God's help, why did he wait for countless people to die needlessly before helping?
I notice you forgot about relief organisations' success.
I notice you forgot about millions of children starving to death every year. Thanks for the help God.
You should read the Bible. There you would actually understand the God you're rejecting, and it will answer your queries.
Oh I've read the Bible, better than you have apparently. I've read the part where God murders babies, God murders the entire population of the earth with the exception of a no good drunk who goes on to curse his own grandson after his son caught him lying around naked while drunk, I've read the part where God separates day from night without the existence of the sun (LOL), I've read the parts where God's law says it's OK for a father to sell his daughter as a sex slave, it's OK to beat a slave to death so long as he or she doesn't die right away, I've read the part where God's law says a woman must marry a man who rapes her and the rapist has to pay her father fifty pieces of silver, I've read the part where God's law says that a woman is to be brought to town by her parents to be stoned to death if she's not a virgin on her wedding night, the part where God's law says a woman is to be stoned to death if she doesn't yell loud enough while being raped or if she touches an attacker's junk while defending her husband, I've read the part where God demands that babies be bashed to death against rocks and pregnant women be ripped open, I've read the part where Jesus attacks the pharisees for not murdering disobedient children. I've read all that filth...what's your point?
"Worthless deity" funny, seeing as how you've never even read a Bible
I've obviously read the Bible or I wouldn't know what a pathetic bloodthirsty, misogynistic baby killing douche your God is.
or Prayed to God.
Why would I pray to a pathetic bloodthirsty, misogynistic baby killing douche?
So that I don't lose my dignity and end up like you.
Dignity? You don't have any dignity. You're a fucking muppet who takes his marching orders from a book written thousands of years ago by primitive Palestinian desert men.
So you're saying God doesn't answer prayers for earthly intervention, thereby admitting prayer has no effect.
Not at all! If we were in Heaven God would heal people directly.
Of course I would, and you still wouldn't have an answer. Before antibiotics were invented (something I'm sure you fully believe was a result of invisible sky daddy "helping" again), a simple infection was often fatal. So if antibiotics came from God's help, why did he wait for countless people to die needlessly before helping?
What do you mean 'Wait'? It seems you're unsatisfied by any time period.
I notice you forgot about millions of children starving to death every year. Thanks for the help God.
You keep confusing Earth with Heaven.
Oh I've read the Bible
No, you haven't.
better than you have apparently.
HA!
I've read the part where God murders babies, God murders the entire population of the earth with the exception of a no good drunk who goes on to curse his own grandson after his son caught him lying around naked while drunk, I've read the part where God separates day from night without the existence of the sun (LOL), I've read the parts where God's law says it's OK for a father to sell his daughter as a sex slave, it's OK to beat a slave to death so long as he or she doesn't die right away, I've read the part where God's law says a woman must marry a man who rapes her and the rapist has to pay her father fifty pieces of silver, I've read the part where God's law says that a woman is to be brought to town by her parents to be stoned to death if she's not a virgin on her wedding night, the part where God's law says a woman is to be stoned to death if she doesn't yell loud enough while being raped or if she touches an attacker's junk while defending her husband, I've read the part where God demands that babies be bashed to death against rocks and pregnant women be ripped open, I've read the part where Jesus attacks the pharisees for not murdering disobedient children. I've read all that filth...what's your point?
Read the Bible, not out of context points.
I've obviously read the Bible or I wouldn't know what a pathetic bloodthirsty, misogynistic baby killing douche your God is.
Well there you just contradicted yourself! No WAY have you read the Bible!
Why would I pray to a pathetic bloodthirsty, misogynistic baby killing douche?
Because you know nothing about Him.
Dignity? You don't have any dignity.
Compared to you, I'm a king.
You're a fucking muppet
Speak for yourself!
who takes his marching orders from a book written thousands of years ago by primitive Palestinian desert men.
Not at all! If we were in Heaven God would heal people directly.
So God only answers prayers in heaven. Isn't it kind of too late at that point?
Read the Bible, not out of context points.
This again? Please explain the context in which killing babies is acceptable. Please explain the context in which keeping and killing slaves is acceptable. Please explain the context in which murdering women for the "crime" of being raped is acceptable. Please explain the context in which punishing ten generations of children for something their father did is acceptable. You can't, because these things are never acceptable in any context you try to justify them with. You're an idiot with no morals - and you speak of dignity?
You've got about as much dignity as a child molester.
So God only answers prayers in heaven. Isn't it kind of too late at that point?
I believe you should re-read what I said, and look up the definition of 'directly' and 'indirectly.'
This again? Please explain the context in which killing babies is acceptable. Please explain the context in which keeping and killing slaves is acceptable. Please explain the context in which murdering women for the "crime" of being raped is acceptable. Please explain the context in which punishing ten generations of children for something their father did is acceptable. You can't, because these things are never acceptable in any context you try to justify them with.
Ah, how typical. Who exactly is the passage talking about? Where? What's the surrounding information?
You're an idiot with no morals
I laughed when I read that mainly because it was coming from you.
You've got about as much dignity as a child molester.
If that's so, then you're dignity (or lack of) is incomparable.
PS - I don't know if you got my message(s) but you haven't replied to my argument on "Does God deserve praise?"
I believe you should re-read what I said, and look up the definition of 'directly' and 'indirectly.'
What you said was some mealy mouthed bullshit about God being in heaven because you had no answer for the fact that no amount of praying will ever result in a regenerated limb.
Ah, how typical. Who exactly is the passage talking about? Where? What's the surrounding information?
You said you've read the Bible, why do I have to tell you what's in it and where?
What you said was some mealy mouthed bullshit about God being in heaven because you had no answer for the fact that no amount of praying will ever result in a regenerated limb.
So basically, any answer I give is bullshit simply because you don't know the difference between God's works in Heaven and God's works on Earth.
You said you've read the Bible, why do I have to tell you what's in it and where?
Quote exactly when I said that I've read the Bible.
So basically, any answer I give is bullshit simply because you don't know the difference between God's works in Heaven and God's works on Earth.
No, the reason you give bullshit answers when questioned about God's inability to regenerate a lost limb, is that you're terrified of the correct answer.
Quote exactly when I said that I've read the Bible.
Instead of doing that, I think I'll suggest that you do. It's a real eye opener, and knowing what's in it might improve your ability to form an argument.
No, the reason you give bullshit answers when questioned about God's inability to regenerate a lost limb, is that you're terrified of the correct answer.
So you don't question why people don't lose limbs in Heaven? You don't think there is a different in what God does in Heaven and on Earth?
Instead of doing that, I think I'll suggest that you do
So you don't question why people don't lose limbs in Heaven? You don't think there is a different in what God does in Heaven and on Earth?
LOL...because it's happy paradise fun land...where nothing ever goes wrong isn't it? Might I remind you also that the debate is supposed to be about prayer success stories and "God fixes limbs that might go missing in heaven" doesn't really cut it.
So basically you can't.
If you didn't say you've read it, then no I can't. I guess I just wasn't expecting somebody stupid enough to defend something they know nothing about. You really showed me.
No, I thought you would have picked up on it by now.
Might I remind you also that the debate is supposed to be about prayer success stories and "God fixes limbs that might go missing in heaven" doesn't really cut it.
I was remarking on how you are so unable to realise the difference between God healing someone directly and indirectly.
If you didn't say you've read it, then no I can't.
But you just said I did!
I guess I just wasn't expecting somebody stupid enough to defend something they know nothing about.
LOL!!! You just made a whole lot of assumptions about me and what I believe, you think that Heaven and Earth are the same, you lose an argument so you decide not to reply, if you don't get an answer you like because conflicts with your athiest ideology you call it "Bullshit", and you're calling ME stupid? That just made my day.
If you pray to god, and that prayer is not discernibly answered, then it cannot be said that god answers prayers.
If millions of people die from smallpox, starvation, cancer, and accidents yet there are religious people praying for these people every day, then prayer doesn't work.
If your argument is that charities and doctors act on behalf of god, then prayer doesn't work; human intervention does.
Don't make excuses for a supposedly omnipotent being.
I have read the Bible so tell me the exact context of where you are talking about so i can actually tell you what it means. And remember according to us those babies went to heaven instead of learn the Pharaohs ways which where morally and physically wrong.(assuming that you where talking about the Pharaohs first born child.)
At least when these kids go to heaven they will be in a much better place instead of being stuck on the earth here with you. Also there have been countless cases where kids have had cancer and have gotten through with it because of God then they have spread the news and also helped fellow Christan's or non fellow Christan's to Christ. God works in mysterious ways. The world is full of sin and it is mans fault that things like this happen to children. It is not Gods fault. God will Work out every problem in a different way. If the child dies, hes in a better place. If the child lives he has a reason to spread Gods names.
So does a bucket of shit. Try it and you'll see what I mean. Pray to a bucket of shit the next time someone you care about is critically ill. If they die, they'll be in a better place with the great shit bucket in the sky. If they live, they can hang around for a few more years and tell other people about the magical shit bucket...it's all so mysterious!
The world is full of sin and it is mans fault that things like this happen to children.
So you're convinced God wasn't smart enough to create a world where children wouldn't suffer? I thought he was all-powerful and all-knowing. I guess not when it comes to protecting the most precious, fragile and innocent of us. What good is a god like that? I thought we were all God's children. This is the way he looks after children?
I hope someday when you're an adult, if you have children you won't stand by idly and watch them suffer at the hands of those would do them harm and just shrug saying it's not your fault that some people are sinners the way your pathetic god does.
No its just a bucket of crap, and well all know in the world that it doesn't have special powers or can answer prayers. lets stay on topic about God here.
"So you're convinced God wasn't smart enough to create a world where children wouldn't suffer? "
No he is alot smarter than you and I, and as I said before it is mans fault for the sins he has put on the children to starve. Its just like if i had a kid that kept being bad and refused to be good, I would kick him out( ofcorse if he is the appropriate age) and as i said before these kids are going to a better place.
"I hope someday when you're an adult, if you have children you won't stand by idly and watch them suffer at the hands of those would do them harm and just shrug saying it's not your fault that some people are sinners the way your pathetic god does."
I hope someday that you are an adult and can actually fully understand things instead of throwing around accusations. Just to let you know I take care of kids all the time. I love them alot more then you do thats pretty obvious. So I know what kids go through everyday, every kids with cancer because I have been there myself.Also you haven't given me those verses. Can you give me those exact verses? I am starting to guess not. Which means you just want to whine about this instead of giving proof. Please stop acting like a child. I am pretty sure this website is for debating not whining.
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
Consider that Jesus had a different sense of glory and honor than you or I. Humiliation was his greatest honor. A criminal's death was his reward for his faith. Jesus also made it clear that the rewards God gives for faith in Him are not of this world.
One King spends his day ensuring all the peasants have enough grain, he builds walls for fortification, hears complaints, and does all the things a King does, and he is involved to the best of his ability in the well-being of his people.
The other however decides that, in order for him to do all of this, he first must be sure that the peasants like him. So he lines them up and allows them to - morning, noon, night, and 1 hour sunday - first tell him, the King, how wonderful he is, then they may ask a favor.
Ignore that the second King may or may not grant these favors, and ignore even that much praise is first required before the King will hear the request.
Which is the better King? And which are the happier peasants.
One in a position of leadership should not require praise, nor personal requests to act in the best interest of the people that leader is in charge of.
If there is a god, you are the peasant of a tyrant.
I've made the same argument for years, only with a pet rock rather than a milk jug and I never turned it into a video. Delusion is a powerful thing though, and rather than admit to a mistaken foolish belief in nonsense for their entire lives, believers will concoct all sorts of marvelous excuses for the ineptitude of their deity.
Just because someone say "no" doesn't mean you didn't get an answer. Selfish prayer isn't prayer at all. To measure the "success" of prayer by the positive responses and expectations that MORTALS have for IMMORTAL and omniscient God who understand the consequences of every change in the universe is just silly.
Why, if so many innocent children, true Christians and good spirited men and women have all prayed for world peace and the end of poverty, has it not happened? Why have so many deserving people, inches from death, of nations ruined not received what they need to survive?
Because other people screw that up. God saw fit to give us free will. Believe in him or not, it's evident that at any moment I could punch you in the face or you to me. Prayer for world peace is a wasted prayer. Peace will never come of this world because of the inadequacies of man. You have a choice, and because you have a choice, we are capable of having this conflict and so this conflict could turn to war. It's not that God isn't listening, it's that we are not listening. Believe in God or not, one knows war comes from man and so peace is up to the choices of man as well. At the very least, what can be done is to teach us a way to avoid conflict, and it was given:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -Matthew 5:38-39
Bear in mind, this comes from a culture where "Eye for an eye" was law of mercy, not revenge. In ancient times, one would kill an entire family for an eye. It was later culturally established that a law of reciprocity take over (The Code of Hammurabi). Jesus, an extremist of his day, argued that when struck, one should refuse to strike back. This effective stance was borrowed by both Gandhi and MLK Jr. Need I say more about the results?
Poverty is man made thing. God gave us the Earth to look after and we've done the worst job possible. There is so much poverty because countries like the uk insist debt being paid off completely! If we weren't so greedy these needy countries would have more money to save their own people.
Therefore poverty is a result of our own greed! Not of God neglecting His children whom he loves dearly!
Therefore poverty is a result of our own greed! Not of God neglecting His children whom he loves dearly!
God is powerless to help children? I think you need a new god. The reason they need help is not the issue. The fact that your pathetic deity can't (or worse, won't) help them is.
Besides, this debate is supposed to be about prayer success stories, not further examples of your god's malice. ineptitude or nonexistence.
God isn't powerless to help children,, unless you've witnessed people being helped by God you can't deny it hasn't happened.
As you pointed out this debate is about prayer SUCCESS stories not sadistic, pessimistic people like yourself trying to disprove God. That's not a prayer success story.
Saying you prayed for Healing and were Healed that would be a success story,, so maybe taking your FALSE claims esewhee would leave others space to feel they can share their success stories without you criticising what they share!!!!!!!!!!
unless you've witnessed people being helped by God you can't deny it hasn't happened.
I don't deny it hasn't happened, I assert that it hasn't.
your FALSE claims
Countless children have starved to death since you showed up apologizing for the ineptitude of your god. That's not a false claim. Not a single amputee has had his or her prayers for a regenerated limb answered. That's not a false claim. What false claims are you talking about?
leave others space to feel they can share their success stories
There's lots of space. So far we haven't needed any though have we?
There is one thing left out of all these arguments. It is undeniable that "faith" causes feelings and experiences in ones current reality. No one has seemed to figure out how or why. The only explanation so far is that there is a "higher" power or some unknown manifestations that take place inside of what we call self and inside of what we call reality. Until someone can prove a scientific explanation for experiences that take place when one actually "believes" in something I am going to accept a higher power as an explanation.
It is undeniable that "faith" causes feelings and experiences in ones current reality. No one has seemed to figure out how or why.
Wrong. Numerous studies have been done on the placebo effect.
Until someone can prove a scientific explanation for experiences that take place when one actually "believes" in something...
already been done
I am going to accept a higher power as an explanation.
Not surprising. This is the default position of the ignorant in an attempt to explain what they don't understand and it's this same ignorance that gave rise to theism in the first place.
Even though I am atheist I see tremendous value in prayer.
I have practiced internal self dialog for as long as I can remember. It is a method of self criticism.
I also think of prayer in terms of speaking up (not remaining silent) about what matters. It takes bravery
Often I have some specific achievement and I strongly suspect others are willing and able to help me accomplish it. So what do I do? I openly and with humility admit that I could use some help.
It doesn't require superstition or anything like that.
I hope we grow out of this stage where we so pridefully label things as absolutely good or absolutely bad. Wisdom comes when you can admire without worshiping and criticize without condemning.
I have practiced internal self dialog for as long as I can remember. It is a method of self criticism.
If you feel good about talking to yourself, hey great, whatever works right? This debate isn't about that though. It's about people who believe in a deity who hears and answers prayer.
Often I have some specific achievement and I strongly suspect others are willing and able to help me accomplish it. So what do I do? I openly and with humility admit that I could use some help.
I don't see the connection between asking people for help and praying to a deity.
It doesn't require superstition or anything like that.
What doesn't?
I hope we grow out of this stage where we so pridefully label things as absolutely good or absolutely bad. Wisdom comes when you can admire without worshiping and criticize without condemning.
The truth of something is not dependent on whether it's perceived to be good or bad.
If you feel good about talking to yourself, hey great, whatever works right?
I don't feel offended in the slightest, though I strongly suspect your intent was to be insulting.
This debate isn't about that though. It's about people who believe in a deity who hears and answers prayer.
Funny that you, (being a professed atheist) regard prayer as anything but what I described. I'd rather talk about what prayer really is. Not what people like you (and theists) mistakenly IMO think it is.
I don't see the connection between asking people for help and praying to a deity.
People exist. People pray. As an atheist I don't think people pray to dieties (as you understand them), Dieties IMO are imaginative constructs.. Unless you believe differently, it should be easy for you to understand that prayer can refer to either internal self dialog or dialog with another individual.
You would have to have a poorly developed idea of what a deity is to think differently.
What doesn't?
Prayer
The truth of something is not dependent on whether it's perceived to be good or bad.
I agree. But your statement doesn't make sense as a response to the point I brought up about how people tend to be overly absolutist (Go ahead and relate the word absolutist with theist in your mind) and unable to recognize both the beneficial and the detrimental aspects of things. This applies to you in that you don't seem to understand how prayer can be beneficial. You will not let YOUR idea of it evolve.
Your idea of what prayer is as silly as those you criticize.
I don't feel offended in the slightest, though I strongly suspect your intent was to be insulting.
I don't know that I could have avoided the tone of sarcasm. You talk to yourself and call it prayer. That's not what prayer is. It may constitute prayer in your opinion, but you can't expect others to discard the traditional meaning of a word and replace it with your own. When you do, you only serve to bog down any debate you engage in with meaningless clutter. I find you do this constantly and it's not a good thing.
This debate isn't about that though. It's about people who believe in a deity who hears and answers prayer.
Funny that you, (being a professed atheist) regard prayer as anything but what I described. I'd rather talk about what prayer really is. Not what people like you (and theists) mistakenly IMO think it is.
Odd...why do you find it strange that knowingly talking to one's self is not my understanding of prayer? Outside of your own circle of friends or your flock at the church of atheism or whatever it is, I'm quite sure you'd have a hard time finding another person who has a similar understanding.
People exist. People pray.
Right, right, with you so far...
As an atheist I don't think people pray to dieties (as you understand them)
I assure you they do. Your obscure thoughts about the meaning of the word deity or any word for that matter, are your own. The rest of us, for the most part, accept the definitions of words as they appear in the dictionary (communication is just so much easier when we all agree what words mean before we use them). You seem to have a habit of forgetting that.
it should be easy for you to understand that prayer can refer to either internal self dialog
That's not prayer, it's a monologue without an audience.
or dialog with another individual.
That's a conversation. Why would you call it prayer?
The truth of something is not dependent on whether it's perceived to be good or bad.
I agree. But your statement doesn't make sense as a response to the point I brought up about how people tend to be overly absolutist (Go ahead and relate the word absolutist with theist in your mind) and unable to recognize both the beneficial and the detrimental aspects of things. This applies to you in that you don't seem to understand how prayer can be beneficial. You will not let YOUR idea of it evolve.
Your idea of what prayer is as silly as those you criticize.
When I created this debate, I asked "What prayers of yours has God answered?"
I did not ask, "Do you talk to yourself or others and call it prayer, and if so, do you find there are benefits in doing so?"
You talk to yourself and call it prayer. That's not what prayer is.
Oh yes it is. unless you and theists are right about what prayer is.
you can't expect others to discard the traditional meaning of a word and replace it with your own. When you do, you only serve to bog down any debate you engage in with meaningless clutter. I find you do this constantly and it's not a good thing.
I reject your authority on the matter.
Your mind is made up like a theist's. You balk at challenges to predominate ways of thinking. You don't think ordinary people should challenge certain language traditions, that's your opinion and I disagree with it.
Odd...why do you find it strange that knowingly talking to one's self is not my understanding of prayer?
You believe that people don't know that prayer is really self talk? I think the vast majority of people know it. What evidence convinces you that they aren't just comfortable (and for some pretty compelling reasons) with using a popular metaphor.
Outside of your own circle of friends or your flock at the church of atheism or whatever it is, I'm quite sure you'd have a hard time finding another person who has a similar understanding.
I take that as a compliment. I am not spouting the same thing as those you might be inclined to lump me in with. Opinions similar to yours are easy to come by. It's easy to find people who articulate their understanding almost exactly like you do. In what ways do your opinions differ from those in your social fish bowl. I think you would struggle to make a list.
As an atheist I don't think people pray to dieties (as you understand them)
I assure you they do.
Why do you have confidence that they aren't simply pretending, or that they don't like confrontation, or that there are other benefits that cause them to profess as they do?
Your obscure thoughts about the meaning of the word deity or any word for that matter, are your own. The rest of us, for the most part, accept the definitions of words as they appear in the dictionary (communication is just so much easier when we all agree what words mean before we use them). You seem to have a habit of forgetting that.
We agree on the meanings of enough words to communicate on a shallow level. I can't agree to an illogical definition of a word. You don't want to dig into the root meanings of words...I can respect that...it's pretty common.
it should be easy for you to understand that prayer can refer to either internal self dialog
That's not prayer, it's a monologue without an audience.
A monologue is like what a preacher or comedian does, internal self dialog is nothing like that. You obviously think it's silly to ask yourself questions and pay close attention to the answers, theism arises from that same misjudgment.
or dialog with another individual.
That's a conversation. Why would you call it prayer?
Prayer is reserved for matters of great importance. Things that trouble you the most are things you pray about. All prayers are conversations, but not all conversations are prayers.
When I created this debate, I asked "What prayers of yours has God answered?"
I did not ask, "Do you talk to yourself or others and call it prayer, and if so, do you find there are benefits in doing so?"
It seems to me that you just want to belittle others for using metaphors that you don't.
When I was a kid I used to pray a lot more, especially for concrete things. I'd be forced to church (no kid wants to sit there for an hour) and pray for new games or money or for my team to win. After I grew up a little, I began realizing that God isn't some sort of fairy that grants wishes. Part of Him is there to vent a little and the other part is to ask for strength. Of course, afterward, it's not good enough, because I still need to vent more and the strength comes from within. But I'm not going to give up on prayer. Sometimes it just makes me feel better to think that my thoughts, while in prayer, are sent to God.
Prayer helps people see things in a different light. Sometimes it makes things seem clearer. This is because you end up arguing with yourself, except, unlike CD, you are more open to your own counter arguments. I mean, if you start calling yourself names, then that defeats the purpose of prayer and you can be classified as clinically unstable ;)
For those of you who honestly believe that the little voice in your head is G-d, this still applies. If He is insulting you, there is probably something wrong.
If praying worked like you want, you would be even more of a spoilt brat. Don't you think God created people because he DIDN'T want to fill the earth with idiots like yourself?
If praying worked like you want, you would be even more of a spoilt brat. Don't you think God created people because he DIDN'T want to fill the earth with idiots like yourself?
Prayer doesn't work, period. Besides the simple fact that if it did work it would be very evident from the billions of people praying all the time having wealth, health, food, etc. It doesn't work when tested scientifically.
But you have no evidence that prayer doesn't work. So I guess we will have to wait till we all get to heaven and you can tell God why You didn't think prayer worked. I am expecting your mere sense of just not believing in God because you want to ignore the evidence will be put into account when God is judging you.
"Besides the simple fact that if it did work it would be very evident from the billions of people praying all the time having wealth, health, food, etc."
The statment he made up above explains that answer.
There was a woman at my friends church that died. The whole church prayed and prayed that she need to be there and that it wasnt her time yet. Close to 24 hours later, she came alive again.
There was a woman at my friends church that died. The whole church prayed and prayed that she need to be there and that it wasnt her time yet. Close to 24 hours later, she came alive again.
When I was in 2nd grade I went to a Catholic school and a girl in the first grade died of cancer. True story, St Paul in Odel IL, around 1980's something. She didn't magically rise from the dead. There was a lot, lot, lot of prayers, and from kids. Those are supposed to be even more magical delicious to Jehova. Guess god liked your Lazarus better... heard that first grader was a bitch anyway >_< I didn't really know her.
It says clearly do not test God. Second if you dont beleive in God and ask him for selfish desires, then he will not answer you. If you beleive in God and ask him for selfish desires then he will not answer you. God reconizes the voice of his people. The question is what is your intent? What are you going to use it for?
So, how do you explain the Holocaust? I am pretty sure that out of 6 million Jews dying in concentration camps, many were praying for their hellish torture to come to an end.
Were they being selfish? To want to survive?
And what of the cancer patients. Did the 7.6 million people who died just not pray hard enough?
And lastly: juvenile diabetics. They do not die. But I am sure that people all over the world have prayed for a cure. Were these patients, the vast majority of which are little more than children, intending to misuse their ability to live healthy lives?
I agree I lost my Sunday School books and kept on praying-ifound them
I lost my phone i prayed- I found it
My friend was seriosly ill and i had no-one to talk about how i felt to i prayed for her- she got better
I was finding it hard to follow the path of righteousness i prayed for guidance- I found my way again.
TAMPA, Fla. — A 9-year-old girl was raped, bound and buried alive, kneeling and clutching a purple stuffed dolphin, state prosecutors said in documents released Wednesday.
Jessica Lunsford's (search) body was found March 19 buried about 150 yards from her house in Homosassa, about 60 miles north of Tampa.
According to the documents, Jessica was found wearing shorts and a shirt — different from the pink nightgown her family said she was wearing when they reported her missing Feb. 24, The Tampa Tribune said in its online edition late Wednesday.
The body was wrapped in two plastic trash bags knotted at her head and feet in a grave covered by a mound of leaves, the state attorney's office said in the documents.
Millions of people around the world prayed for that little girl to be found safe, yet she was raped repeatedly and died frightened and alone with nothing more than a stuffed toy to comfort her in her final moments.
I guess God was too busy with your fucking Sunday school books and your phone to help her.
Wow, your god's a jerk-off because there was this Christian tribe in Africa that happened to be at war with a tribe of some other religion, and one Sunday while all the children of the Christian village were in the church for Sunday school, the other tribe burned the church down.
Burning over a dozen children alive, all of whom were doubtless praying.