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Debate Info

18
23
Liberals UNDERSTAND it Right wingers DON'T
Debate Score:41
Arguments:50
Total Votes:42
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Argument Ratio

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 Liberals UNDERSTAND it (19)
 
 Right wingers DON'T (21)

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excon(18261) pic



Right wingers TALK about the Constitution but they don't understand it..

Hello:

George W. Bush started the prison at Gitmo because he THOUGHT the Constitution didn't apply. But, he found out that it does. Here's the 5th Amendment...

"No PERSON shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

If you notice, the subject of this amendment is "persons". I suspect my opponents will say it MEANS citizens. I, however, don't think our founders made a mistake.  Do any of you paper conservatives wanna take me on???

excon

Liberals UNDERSTAND it

Side Score: 18
VS.

Right wingers DON'T

Side Score: 23
1 point

"except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger"

According to your interpretation soldiers cannot ever fire a shot on the enemy, but rather must use domestic police tactics in the hopes of apprehending enemy combatants for trial prior to depriving them of life, liberty, or property.

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
excon(18261) Disputed
1 point

Hello A:

Nahhh... My argument is SIMPLY that the 5th Amendment refers to PERSONS, which means trying to AVOID the Constitution by saying the 5th Amendment apples ONLY to CITIZENS, is clearly UNCONSTITUTIONAL.. It's no more difficult than that..

I have NO idea why you think that means America can't go to war..

excon

PS> By the way.. It's not MY interpretation.. It's the English language.. The word person simply does NOT mean citizen.

Side: Right wingers DON'T
Amarel(5669) Disputed
1 point

I am presenting the logical outcome of trying to hold the whole world subject to our constitution, as you are doing. If the 5th Amendment applies to any person, then how can we deprive an enemy combatant of life, liberty or property without due process?

Do you suppose that when the 4th Amendment refers to "The People" that they mean anything other than the American people?

You wan't to apply the Constitution to extend to protecting foreign enemy combatants. It does not. The outcome of that interpretation is absurd.

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

How are the terrorists in Guantanamo who are a public danger not covered under the exception?

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
1 point

I find it ironic that you, who appear to be on the extreme Left, commit the exact same fallacies as certain other members of this website who appear to be on the extreme Right: hasty generalization/composition/division and black-and-white being nicely exemplified in this particular debate.

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
excon(18261) Clarified
1 point

Hello L:

You can make it about me.. That way you can SOUND smart, and you don't even have to actually DEBATE..

excon

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
LichPotato(362) Clarified
1 point

The problem with debating here, as you propose I could have done, is that, first of all, the dichotomy you've presented is false (hence my pointing out your "black-and-white" fallacy in my previous post), and second, even if it weren't, the entire premise of your argument is based on the fallacy of hasty generalization (again, as previously pointed out). What, exactly, is there to debate? The only purpose of my previous post was to express the irony I felt in your having done exactly what those you seem to despise (the so-called "right-wingers", particularly those erring on the extreme end of the spectrum) have done.

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it

It means neither everyone nor just citizens, but those who are covered under the US law. That includes - citizens, visitors and immigrants who don't yet have a citizenship.

Now, are those you are talking about under the US law?

Side: Right wingers DON'T
excon(18261) Clarified
1 point

Hello J:

The Bill of Rights TELLS the government what it CAN'T do to "persons".. If the government TRIES, then those are the people I'm talking about..

excon

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
JatinNagpal(2678) Clarified
1 point

US constitution doesn't apply to those who are not under their law, though. That's already implied.

In other words, those who are covered by the contract.

If they aren't, then you're looking at a wrong piece of legislation for the purpose.

Sure, it might not be ethical to do, but this does not prevent them from doing anything with others.

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
1 point

The most clear headed response you've ever posted. The most reasonable interpretation.

Side: Right wingers DON'T
1 point

My responses are always clear headed.

If they don't seem like that, then it means that you didn't ask the question I was expecting you to, and what you asked wasn't worded much differently. In other words, vague.

Or, as was the case in our last correspondence, and rarely so, it might be something I didn't expect or wasn't thinking of. Add to it that I would have already expected you to be vague.

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it
1 point

When did you Progressives become so concerned with the Constitution ? Is that when Your Gal Hillary lost ?

Side: Right wingers DON'T
1 point

Do you understand the Bill of Rights ? Tell me all about the 2nd Amendment you Progressives oppose !

Side: Right wingers DON'T
excon(18261) Disputed
1 point

Hello again, outlaw:

I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution - not just the parts I like.

excon

Side: Liberals UNDERSTAND it

Well, ya see, there's a difference between George Bush and Conservativism. Bush was the pre-Obama. That's why he opposes Trump and kisses Obama's butt every chance he gets. The Bushes are liberal moles.

Side: Right wingers DON'T

Liberals don't seem to grasp that there were no "left wingers" when the Constitution was written. Our founding fathers were way further right than the Conservatives of today. If you had spouted gay rights, feminism, and tolerance for non-Christian religions, they would have burned you at the stake as a heretic.

Side: Right wingers DON'T