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Listen to the excuses from the Left. They talk about the mother being able to exercise her authority over the child, or not being forced to keep her child.
CAN YOU IMAGINE THESE TOTALLY SELFISH EXCUSES FOR HUMAN BEINGS?
Using that twisted logic, a mother shoud be able to kill her new born baby if she deos not want it, or she thinks she would be a bad parent, etc. etc.
WHAT ABSOLUTE DRIVEL!
This is why we have mothers throwing their babies unto dumpsters after they are born!
There is no difference between that late term viable baby before or after birth!
An innocent human life is the most precious thing in this world, and you don't make excuses for taking that life.
People distmiss the specifics of this. There is always different circumstances of whether this could be morally correct or not just like in other situations like euthanasia. Examples of obscure circumstances are happenings of rape, should the mother have to birth the child she did not want? what if the pregnancy was an ectopic pregnancy where the mother's life really is at risk. It is also impossible to counter act this. I believe the woman should have the right to do what she pleases with her body as she is in a current living state and my personal belief would say that she is not more important than the foetus in question but she takes priority in the sense that she is present in life and is living so should have the right to carry on doing so the way they want. In many countries woman can't just have them for the sake of it and have them at a constant rate which cuts down the number of abortions. It is legal in most western countries anyway.
As always, bring up life of mother, or rape excuses to condone the vast vast vast vast vast majority of abortions done purely for birth control.
I'm so sick of deceptive people like yourself.
NEWSFLASH, a woman has a couple days to go to the doctors to get pills to prevent conception after a rape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the very rare occurences of those types of pregnancies. The GOP has already compromised on rape abortions, life of mother abortions, and other extreme case abortions, but FOOLS WILL KEEP USING THOSE PATHETIC EXCUSES!
2. This debate is asking about abortion in general, not late term. It is possible to legalise abortion without having it legal during the third trimester.
3. Up until 25 weeks the fetus has no regular EEG (brain activity) and therefore has no mind, is not truly alive. But I guess anything scientific means nothing to a religitard young earth creationist like you.
To the idiot that pretends to not know what he supports when voting for Democrats.
THE GOP HAS A NUMBER OF TIMES TRIED TO COMPROMISE AND ALLOW ABORTIONS UP TO 20 WEEKS(WITH EXTREME CASE EXCEPTIONS UP TO BIRTH) AND THE DEMOCRAT PARTY ALWAYS STOPS THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You just said it would be possible to not have third trimester abortions legal. THE DEMOCRT PARTY WILL NOT ALLOW IT.
WHEN YOU VOTE FOR THEM, YOU ARE SUPPORTING KILLING ANY BABY UP TO BIRTH FOR ANY REASON!
Abortion should not be made legal. If scientist found a single cell organism on mars they would classify it as life on mars, but people won't call a human fetus life. Abortion is murder. Abortion is either poisoning the child with a pill or the doctor will go into the womb and crush the human fetus's head. In addition, some of the previous debaters have mentioned that the mother may not have wanted to have the baby or won't be able to afford the baby. You decide if you want to have the baby where ever you have sex, not in the hospital or birth clinic. Also, putting your own comfort above a baby's life is selfish, and you are putting money and materials over a living baby. If the baby came into an impoverished family then that family can put the baby in an orphanage, into the foster care system, and family members.
You are attempting to arrive at an ascription of "human life" from an ascription merely of "life". One might well regard the fetus as life just as one regards the single cell organism on Mars as life, but one cannot get from there to a conclusion that the fetus is human life because one would not say the single cell organism on Mars is human life.
If the fetus is not regarded as a human life, which you have not established it to be, then it does not really matter what reason a woman has for wanting an abortion. With respect to the issue of resources, I think you are not considering that matter in its entirety; it is not a question of the mother's comfort but of the quality of life of the prospective child. It takes money and materials to give a child a quality upbringing that respects their human value, and if those resources are not available (and especially if one does not regard a fetus as being a human life yet) then there is a defensible ethical ground for not bringing that child into a life of suffering. Suggesting that the child would have a quality life in an orphanage or foster care demonstrates a rather woeful ignorance of the quality of life these options actually afford, nor is it reasonable to suppose that family would be in any greater position to care for the child.
Also, not sure why you're apologizing. Nothing you said was particularly offensive, and even if it was so what?
I agree that we ascribe life to things regularly, but I don't see that as inconsistent with my point. My argument isn't that we don't or shouldn't do this, but that the act of ascription is fairly arbitrary and not logically defensible (particular from the limited grounds given by the person I was responding to).
You can call the fetus whatever one likes as far as I'm concerned, since there's no objective manner by which to define it. I'd personally described it as simply fetal life, or perhaps proto-human life (if I ascribed it autonomous life at all).
"Fetal life" certainly doesn't work as a sufficient description since different fetal types have predictably different developmental paths. Proto human life is as fitting a description as child human life, teenage human life, or adult human life.
As for ascription itself being arbitrary, I'm not sure it's being used correctly here. I can't really think of a general context in which ascription is indefensible.
Claiming that any given argument is baseless or subjective (a matter of opinion) is a favorite stance of yours. It works well for forcing others to thoroughly explain their position ad nauseam, but it never provides a foundation for a substantial assertive position.
The gist of my suggestion was merely to use scientific terminology; I thought "fetus" would suffice to highlight the basic differentiation I was after, but if you wanted to be more particular I wouldn't object. "Proto-" is a prefix which functions differently from the other modifiers (i.e. child, teenage, adult); it indicates something prior to human, whereas the others qualify a type of human. These were soft suggestions anyways, and I don't feel particularly driven to defend them since my position on legalized abortion isn't contingent upon the language we use.
My original objection was merely to the logical invalidity of concluding that because we might call A life then B must be human life. Beyond that, though, I do have a general argument which you have begun to identify. This objection is not, as you suggest, against arbitrary ascription; I think all ascription is arbitrary insofar as it merely reflects the conceptual understandings our preferences cause us to associate with things, but I have no objection to this (that would be futile). Rather, my objection (and frustration) is with people treating ascription as non-arbitrary and thereby as a sound component in an argument on the legalization of abortion.
I regard the semantic dispute about what constitutes (human) life as a distraction which takes its relevance only from the belief that if we should call something by a particular name that this should somehow alter how we treat it. This is grounded in further arbitrary association of the terms in question with ideas about what it means to be "human" or "life"; these, too, cannot advance on objective merit over any competing conception. The real issue at hand is how we treat that which is inside a biological female relative to how we treat something outside the same; I do not think that the language we use is material to answering that question.
Pointing out the subjectivity of others' positions is a particularly effective approach when people operate as if they are expressing objective truths, which is fairly often here. I also do not understand why you seem to find this questionable behavior on my part. I use this approach frequently because it is consistent with my philosophy as an epistemological and value nihilist. I have no issue with people arguing from subjective premises, and where someone identifies that they are doing so in order to advance another argument I can treat the premise as accepted in order to analyze that argument (or ask them to entertain if they think it still holds under my premises). However, most people do not treat their subjective premises as subjective and I find it acceptable to press them on that (as well as generally impractical to try having the aforementioned form of engagement).
I do not hold any proscriptive positions, which is why I do not tend to advance affirmative positions of that nature since many topics here are propscriptive. I am not afraid to express my own preferences and opinions. However, I do not treat them as grounded by objective premises because I do not think we can know of any objective premises with certainty (excepting that something exists, or possibly some other similar tautology). When I advance a position it is out of my preferences, and these I will argue for. I do this either from mutual premises (which are rare), or by adopting the opposing premises and arguing from them as possible.
"Proto-" is a prefix which functions differently from the other modifiers (i.e. child, teenage, adult); it indicates something prior to human
Or it indicates something primitive or original, but not other than human. There’s room in the definition for either. You may need a more precise word
think all ascription is arbitrary
There is no reason to think this is a valid position.
The real issue at hand is how we treat that which is inside a biological female relative to how we treat something outside the same
I agree, that is the issue. What you call the semantic dispute is the identification of what that “something” actually is. Rather than an argument about the magic of labels, the identification of what a thing is cannot be disregarded as irrelevant to the issue at hand. How we treat a thing hinges on what it is.
I also do not understand why you seem to find this questionable behavior on my part. I use this approach frequently because it is consistent with my philosophy as an epistemological and value nihilist
I find your philosophy questionable, therefore I find the expression thereof questionable as well. As a value nihilist I find it somewhat hypocritical that you continue to breath. But I know this doesn’t matter to you either.
I do not think we can know of any objective premises with certainty (excepting that something exists, or possibly some other similar tautology)
The kind of certainty you demand is unreasonable to expect. I can’t truly say with certainty that my water will work when I turn on the faucet, that doesn’t mean I should forego a shower. Even though I can’t predict the working of the faucet with certainty, I know it will work. I would argue that it will work for all kinds of reasons. Pointing out that I can’t know for certain would be almost irrelevant.
Or it indicates something primitive or original, but not other than human. There’s room in the definition for either. You may need a more precise word
Your argument taken to its natural conclusion would mean that we should never use any word which has multiple meanings, which is plainly contrary to how we actually use language. Having multiple meanings does not make a word meaningless. We regularly infer intended meaning from context in our everyday interactions, and there's no self-evident reason this basic cognitive reasoning can't be used in this instance too. As stated, though, I don't particularly care if you find any of the terms I suggested to be suitable; it's immaterial.
There is no reason to think this is a valid position.
Are you really so disingenuous as to suppose I hold this view without any rationale? The evident variability of language in its use and interpretation between persons, over time, and across space suggests to me that ascription cannot possibly be an objective process. If it were then we should suspect universality, consistency, and a relative absence of semantic confusion. Moreover, the very meaning of the word "ascription" is the assigning of a quality or characteristic to some thing which means that the quality in question is not innate to what it is being attached to (otherwise we would not attach it, we would observe it). There is no externalist account, to my knowledge, which explains how something which is a human construction (language) can possibly be wholly non-subjective. Regardless, this is (again) immaterial to my original objection or my position on the immediate issue of legalized abortion.
I agree, that is the issue. What you call the semantic dispute is the identification of what that “something” actually is. Rather than an argument about the magic of labels, the identification of what a thing is cannot be disregarded as irrelevant to the issue at hand. How we treat a thing hinges on what it is.
How we treat a thing does depend upon what that thing is, but what we call that thing does not change what it is. If I think apples are good and veal is bad, it is not sensible that I would change how I treat what I formerly called an apple differently just because we start calling it veal instead. It hasn't changed and taken on the qualities of veal. What originally caused me to view it as good - nice taste - stays the same about it. An apple by any other name is still an apple. This is an argument I have already made at greater length, and I don't see that you've actually addressed that rationale except to assert an opposite conclusion.
I find your philosophy questionable, therefore I find the expression thereof questionable as well. As a value nihilist I find it somewhat hypocritical that you continue to breath. But I know this doesn’t matter to you either.
It does not seem to necessarily follow that viewing something as questionable merits treating its expression as questionable too. Nevertheless, if you are consistent in this view then you should find the expression of any view that differs from yours questionable. That makes your participation on a debate forum at least as confusing as my continuing to breath. Also, your belief that my continued existence is inconsistent with my philosophy is based on the premise that value is necessary to life. But this a premise from your philosophy, not mine, so my continued existence is only inconsistent with your beliefs and poses no contradiction to my own.
The kind of certainty you demand is unreasonable to expect. I can’t truly say with certainty that my water will work when I turn on the faucet, that doesn’t mean I should forego a shower. Even though I can’t predict the working of the faucet with certainty, I know it will work. I would argue that it will work for all kinds of reasons. Pointing out that I can’t know for certain would be almost irrelevant.
You have misconstrued me. Not only did I never say it was reasonable to expect certainty, I think the opposite is likely given my belief that certainty is almost always impossible. The implications I drew from this, and which you completely neglected to address, pertained directly to how I engage others in discussion of our respective ideas. I do not feel compelled to repeat myself as you may simply read what I have already written.
You said I think all ascription is arbitrary which is an invalid position.
Ascription (the action of regarding a quality as belonging to someone or something) may be lacking in some degree of objectivity, but it does not follow that all ascription is thus arbitrary. One cannot in truth ascribe the qualities of a tree to a cat. If ascription was arbitrary, one could. You are pretending that ascription is merely label making and that the labels we use are a matter of individual whim. Your assertion that all ascription is arbitrary seems to be based on a conflation between the concept of language and examples of languages. The utterances we use to identify a thing may be arbitrary, but the use of those utterances is not.
This aspect of the disagreement is relevant to abortion because you don’t want to ascribe the qualities of a human to a fetus. Though no other organisms qualities will fit. You final effort to avoid this fact rested on calling a fetus an early human, a pre-human, or proto-human. Thus, you cannot escape the human element in a human fetus.
You pretend as though the distinction doesn't matter. As though ignoring the human element illuminates the human element. Or rather that there actually isn't a human element despite the language we use. The debate hinges not on the language we use, but rather the human element is actually there. The distinction does matter. There are important psychological and social repercussions connected how we treat humans and what we believe qualifies. This is why soldiers dehumanize the enemy. This is why slavery persisted.
Concerning the semantic aspect you replied How we treat a thing does depend upon what that thing is, but what we call that thing does not change what it is. You then went on to pretend that I had claimed the latter rather than the former and explained that the words we choose do not magically change a things identity. It’s nice that you agree with me. It’s not nice that you pretend I said the opposite of what I said, and then tackled that straw man.
if you are consistent in this view then you should find the expression of any view that differs from yours questionable. I don't, but you then go on to tackle this straw man as well. I find nihilism questionable for a specific reason, which does not necessarily apply to all other philosophies. The nihilistic approach is a useful tool. When it is used only as a tool it is something akin to skepticism. When it is adopted as an philosophy it becomes something else. You are adept at showing holes in the arguments of opponents. But you use Nihilism to claim the correct position not by actually having one, but by virtue of your opponents failure to counter your attacks. Nihilism can’t actually hold a position, but pretends to hold a winning position. I find it intellectually dishonest. So I find it questionable.
What do you mean by the word “value”? I would like to see if your philosophy is inconsistent with your continued existance.
Please disabuse yourself of the notion that I object to calling the fetus human. I have no such objection, and accordingly have never raised it. My objection has been against treating any such ascription as a rationally defensible argument unto itself. I only ever presented alternative terminology because you asked that I do so, and I stated even then that I was indifferent to the language used. We may use whatever term you prefer henceforth, if you like.
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Regarding is a psychological process of association, in this case between a concept of a quality and an object. That it involves sensory perception and cognitive processing makes it fundamentally subjective. An utterance is literally defined as an act of uttering, so the distinction you wish to draw between them is tautologically precluded. Either way, (the use of) utterance (i.e. ascription) by a person is a consequence of their individual judgement or preference by simple virtue of originating in the psychological process of regarding. This satisfies the definition of arbitrariness, and is sufficient warrant for my claim.
I take your conflation allegation as a response to my point about the variability of language in its use and interpretation. Until such time as you warrant this with an argument which identifies the purported point of conflation, I can only guess at your meaning. For my part, I will clarify that in the single instance where I used the word "language" I was not discussing its concept at all but its actual use. This seems evident to me, from the context, but briefly my point was that ascription involves words which are themselves non-objective as evidenced by the variability of their use and the regularity confusion regarding their interpretation.
You argue that: One cannot in truth ascribe the qualities of a tree to a cat. If ascription was arbitrary, one could. Yet if I were to say that what you call a cat has the qualities of a tree, how could you possibly argue otherwise except through appeal to your own regard for that object in question? I do no think you can, precisely on account of this regard being seated in your own individual psychological processes which you cannot share directly to me.
Similarly, you claim that: Thus, you cannot escape the human element in a human fetus. But from what basis do you warrant your position that there is a "human element" in a human fetus, except but through your regarding the fetus as human in the first place? This begs the question, and again necessarily relies upon your subjective regard towards the fetus. When confronted with someone who does not regard the fetus as having a human element you can, again, appeal only to your own regard for the fetus as having such an element. I am persuaded that you see the fetus as having some identifiable element which you ascribe humanness to, because your testimony tells me this much. But I do not have any reason to trust your subjective regard over and against my own (nor do you mine).
Naturally, ascription has repercussions which we might be concerned about; I've never denied this, and it isn't inconsistent with my position. The reason these consequences exist is because people persist in the idea that our subjective regard for something somehow alters it's objective existence. We both agree that this is invalid, and I never actually claimed you disagreed with me on this point; I advanced it as a component of my own argument. Given that invalidity, it is not rational to alter or defend to others our attitudes towards a situation solely on the basis of what we ascribe to the relevant objects. This is because the objective circumstances remain wholly unaltered; we would be changing our attitude or expecting others to do so purely on the basis of a subjective regard for those objects. That people are prone to doing so anyways demonstrates nothing beyond their proclivity for doing so.
When people argue from ascription on any issue from any position, they are attempting to shift how others subjectively regard the relevant objects by asserting their premises as truths inherent to the relevant objects. They are making an argument from a conceptual framework expressly developed to support the conclusion they already hold. To an extent, I think this is unavoidable since all positions are ultimately rooted in non-rational premises. What I find indefensible (from a rational perspective) in the ascriptive approach to arguing issues is that it is often ignorant of its own assumptions, or at least treats them as so given as to be untouchable by discourse. This creates a lot of talking across one another which neither alters anyone's position, nor advances anyone's understanding of those they disagree with. I think that defensible arguments require explicit premises, which must either be debated in their own right or else accepted for the sake of argument. It is not likely to persuade someone to one's own premises, but if the other can accept them for the sake of argument then they can better understand the disagreement in a way that is less divisive. Or, if one can argue from another's premises their odds of causing that person to reconsider their position are significantly greater than if they argue in spite of them.
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You stated: I find your philosophy questionable, therefore I find the expression thereof questionable as well. The logic beneath this argument is that if a philosophy is questionable then its expression is also questionable. I observed that were you consistent in applying that logic, then the expression of all other philosophies you also find questionable should be questionable too. At no point did I speculate as to whether you did apply that logic consistently. Nor was I aware of the rationale you have subsequently provided at the time, so my observation was sound upon the premises I had to work with. It was not a strawman, but a conclusion drawn reasonably from what argument you had provided me at the time. Nor did I at any point attempt to avoid addressing your argument by making this observation, so it is again not a strawman.
You argue that I use Nihilism to claim the correct position not by actually having one, but by virtue of your opponents failures to counter your attacks. Nihilism can't actually hold a position, but pretends to hold a winning position. I find it intellectually dishonest. So I find it questionable.
I do not actually disagree with your reasoning here, except that you presume that Nihilism necessarily claims a correct or winning position. Though it would be inconsistent with nihilism to claim an objectively correct position, it is not inconsistent for a nihilist to express positions of preference (including towards nihilism). I do not maintain that nihilism is the correct philosophy and I do not think it follows from the philosophy that it must, so there is no inherent contradiction to it (although there are many professed nihilists who contradict themselves here). That I am a nihilist is a matter of preference only, as are all my other views.
What do you mean by the word “value”? I would like to see if your philosophy is inconsistent with your continued existance.
That would depend on context, but generally I differentiate between objective value and subjective value. I do not believe the former exists, and so I do not think anything has intrinsic value. But I recognize in myself and others a preference for certain things which I find appropriate to refer to as subjective values.
I think perhaps my earlier point on this concern of inconsistency was misunderstood. I would say that I think my existence has no objective value, but that I generally find some subjective value in it. More to the point though, I do not accept that valuing existence is necessary to existing. I think that comes from non-nihilistic philosophies, rather than from within it. Existence does not need any value - objective or subjective - to be, because it merely is.
My objection has been against treating any such ascription (human) as a rationally defensible argument unto itself
Wouldn’t your position also be applicable to actual murder? As a nihilist, you see no special status or value in that which is human, therefore your argument for abortion applies equally to actual murder, no?
An utterance is literally defined as an act of uttering, so the distinction you wish to draw between them is tautologically precluded
An utterance is literally defined as “a spoken word, statement, or vocal sound”, but don’t let facts get in the way of your position.
The process of regarding or ascribing is subjective, true. But the stimuli that triggers a given sense is not subjective, which is why our “regarding” is not arbitrary.
Non-objective is not the same as arbitrary.
if I were to say that what you call a cat has the qualities of a tree, how could you possibly argue otherwise except through appeal to your own regard for that object in question?
I can argue otherwise by appealing to your regard of the object in question. If the qualities you describe are those of a cat, but you insist on calling it a tree, you have taken the non-objective and pretended it is arbitrary. If your mind is truly as arbitrary as that, then I need not worry, there would be no conversation on the matter as you would be too insane to converse.
Our experience is subjective, but the world that creates our experience is not. It is the objective world that has formed you and your ability to experience it. Therefore, I need not appeal to my own experience alone, but our shared experience of that which is objective.
from what basis do you warrant your position that there is a "human element" in a human fetus
From the basis that a human fetus can be distinguished from other types of fetus. I am not begging the question. If someone identifies a fetus, and I ask them what kind, when they respond that it is a dog fetus, I will understand the dog element in the dog fetus. It’s tautological. A thing is what it is.
But I do not have any reason to trust your subjective regard over and against my own (nor do you mine)
That’s true enough. If two people are alone in the wilderness, one identifies a tree (with the qualities thereof) and the other identifies the same as a cat (with the qualities thereof), then they are experiencing the same objective reality in such vastly different ways that one must be insane. The insane person will never believe this fact, nor, in reason, should they. But most people are not insane. Most people experience objective reality in similar enough ways that communication and agreement is possible. Thus when I am confronted with someone who does not regard a fetus as having a human element, all I need to do is ask what kind of fetus. If they say a human fetus, then I can ask what makes them say so. If they say that it’s no kind of fetus, then we should all be concerned with how it got inside that lady.
it is not rational to alter or defend to others our attitudes towards a situation solely on the basis of what we ascribe to the relevant objects. This is because the objective circumstances remain wholly unaltered
It is the subjectivity of regard that makes argumentation concerning ascription so important. If I tell you not to cut down the tree because it is actually your horse, neither I nor you have altered the reality of the horse. Nonetheless, your inaccurate regard makes all the difference in how you conduct yourself. Thus, it is rational to defend our attitudes toward things based solely on what we ascribe to them. The accuracy of a given ascription matters.
All positions are ultimately rooted in non-rational premises
That position certainly is.
I observed that were you consistent in applying that logic, then the expression of all other philosophies you also find questionable should be questionable too. At no point did I speculate as to whether you did apply that logic consistently
Actually, you stated that if you are consistent in this view then you should find the expression of any view that differs from yours questionable.
I do not actually disagree with your reasoning here, except that you presume that Nihilism necessarily claims a correct or winning position
For reasons already stated, I find Nihilism problematic as it concerns intellectual interactions. For the reasons you just stated, I find Nihilism problematic for one’s personal intellectual well-being. Saying “there is no truth” or “truth cannot be known” has the same internal contradiction as “there are no absolutes”.
I do not accept that valuing existence is necessary to existing. I think that comes from non-nihilistic philosophies, rather than from within it. Existence does not need any value - objective or subjective - to be, because it merely is
First, you never said what you mean by the word value, which was actually the question.
Second, existence on your part requires certain things for its continuation. That being the case, it is not simply a matter of automation. Knowing what you mean by the word “value” is necessary to determine if your continued existence is in contradiction with your philosophy.
Wouldn't your position also be applicable to actual murder? As a nihilist, you see no special status or value in that which is human, therefore your argument for abortion applies equally to actual murder, no?
Your conclusion would follow if that were my argument, but it isn't. Although the absence of objective value does affect my position on the legality of abortion, its function is permissive rather than explanatory. Absent objective value, my own subjective preferences determine my positions. Those preferences revolve around preserving and advancing the well-being of myself and those who matter to me. Legalized abortion poses no threat on that account, whereas legalized murder would. Consequently, though my value nihilism means I regard neither as wrong my position towards their respective legality does differ.
An utterance is literally defined as "a spoken word, statement, or vocal sound", but don't let facts get in the way of my position.The process of regarding or ascribing is subjective, true. But the stimuli that triggers a given sense is not subjective which is why our "regarding" is not arbitrary. Non-objective is not the same as arbitrary.
Different dictionaries, but no matter. Action is implicit in your definition; one cannot have a spoken word without an act of speech. Similarly, "regarding" is not a coherent concept unless construed as a process or action, and in those respects even you have ceded that it is subjective. Your trigger argument demonstrates why ascription does not occur arbitrarily, but this does not contradict my point which is that where ascription occurs it is an arbitrary process. Whether the process and action are initiated by something objective is irrelevant to the substance of ascription because a causal relationship does not transfer objectivity from the trigger onto its consequence. If that were the case, then nothing would be subjective which your concession alone precludes. Your argument makes as much sense as supposing that because a hot stove causes me to move my hand that I am therefore a stove; it's objective properties don't transfer to me just because I was in relation to it. So long as the process is subjective it is arbitrary, even if it was initiated by something that wasn't. I am arguing from subjectivity to arbitrariness, not from non-objectivity to arbitrariness (though I disagree with your conclusion there as well: if something lacks objective existence but nevertheless exists, then its existence is necessarily a subjective existence).
I can argue otherwise by appealing to your regard of the object in question. [...] If your mind is truly as arbitrary as that, then I need not worry, there would be no conversation on the matter as you would be too insane to converse.
The purpose of supposing myself to regard trees and cats differently from you was not to seriously suggest we differed here. Rather, it was to pose the hypothetical scenario in which you are faced with another person who sincerely regards the same object differently than yourself. The question, then, is how you would demonstrate to such a person that your regard of the object is correct as you cannot rely on their divergent regard. This was intended to demonstrate the subjectivity of regarding (i.e. ascription) as a process, which you have already conceded at this point.
Denouncing them as "insane" when you cannot actually prove your regard correct not only avoids answering the epistemic problem, but is predicated upon an unreliable assumption that a single case of divergent regard can only occur as part of a consistent pattern of divergence that precludes conversation. This is obviously not the case, as demonstrated by the very issue at hand: people vary in their regard of the same object (i.e. the unborn human, shall we call it?), although they are regarding the same object and are still perfectly capable of conversing.
Our experience is subjective, but the world that creates our experience is not. It is the objective world that has formed you and your ability to experience it. Therefore, I need not appeal to my own experience alone, but our shared experience of that which is objective.
You cannot appeal to shared experience where it does not exist, and the subjective sensory processing through which each of us experiences the objective world precludes us from having identical experiences of it. Even were we acted upon identically, this does not mean we experience being acted upon identically because sensory processing and subsequent cognition are purely subjective and unique to each individual. The objective world may inform our subjective processes, but it does not wholly determine them which is why we have divergent regard for evidently identical objects (again, as pertaining to the issue of abortion).
From the basis that a human fetus can be distinguished from other types of fetus. I am not begging the question. If someone identifies a fetus, and I ask them what kind, when they respond that it is a dog fetus, I will understand the dog element in the dog fetus. It’s tautological. A thing is what it is. [...] Thus when I am confronted with someone who does not regard a fetus as having a human element...
Your contextual use of "human element" seemed to suggest more than mere biological relation, but I may have misunderstood. At any rate, it is not at all evident that merely because someone refers to the object in question as a human fetus that they necessarily do so because there is a human element to it. "Human fetus" may equally signify that the fetus belongs to or originates from a human, much as "human house" or "human culture" would do (i.e. we don't mean that the culture is actually a human, or the house).
It is the subjectivity of regard that makes argumentation concerning ascription so important. If I tell you not to cut down the tree because it is actually your horse, neither I nor you have altered the reality of the horse. Nonetheless, your inaccurate regard makes all the difference in how you conduct yourself. Thus, it is rational to defend our attitudes toward things based solely on what we ascribe to them. The accuracy of a given ascription matters.
My imprecision has created ambiguity here, and you've predictably given it the least generous reading you possibly could. I did not mean to suggest that acting upon our respective perceptions was rationally indefensible, but that presenting subjective perception is not a form of rational argumentation (consistent with my previous statements). It was also not my intention to suggest that our actions as determined by our regard of things do not have material implications, but that our regard in and of itself does not alter the object it is directed towards (again, consistent with my previous statements). To the latter point, your remark that neither of our regards has altered the reality of the horse seems concurrent with the point I have been advancing: the differentiability between object and ascription.
That position certainly is.
I don't make exceptions for it, but nor is this an argument against it.
Actually, you stated that "if you are consistent in this view then you should find the expression of any view that differs from yours questionable."
The only evident difference between the two statements is that in the first I used "differs" instead of "is questionable". It is not unreasonable to treat the two as interchangeable, since a view that differs from you is necessarily one you find questionable otherwise you'd hold it yourself. At any rate, my intent should be abundantly clear so at this point you're just being disingenuous to no particular end.
For reasons already stated, I find Nihilism problematic as it concerns intellectual interactions. For the reasons you just stated, I find Nihilism problematic for one’s personal intellectual well-being. Saying “there is no truth” or “truth cannot be known” has the same internal contradiction as “there are no absolutes”.
As I already explained, it is not a contradiction if the statements themselves are not taken as absolute truth statements themselves. Which I do not take them to be, and which nihilism as a school need not do either. Reasserting your previous counter is non-responsive.
First, you never said what you mean by the word value, which was actually the question.
Actually, I did so explicitly. I defined subjective value as personal preference towards things. Beyond that, I indicated that my definition is context dependent; because I do not believe in objective value the concept is incoherent to me and I utilize whatever conception seems relevant based on how others understand it in context.
Second, existence on your part requires certain things for its continuation. That being the case, it is not simply a matter of automation. Knowing what you mean by the word “value” is necessary to determine if your continued existence is in contradiction with your philosophy.
You presume my existence, its form, and its conditions without proving them. Even given these three unwarranted premises, you present no explanation as to why it then follows that my existence is not simply a matter of automation. I am also unclear as to what you mean by "automation". Nor do I see what connection value has to automation.
Well you wouldn't kill your next door neighbor (Unless you're a psycho) so why would you kill an innocent human? Now if the mother's life is in danger or if you got raped then go ahead and rip it out. Simple...
NO! Abortion is only another excuse for young non married couples to go and have sex without using protection methods. ABORTION IS AN EXCUSE NOT A RIGHT!
Abortion is already a right under a different name confession. We already have a legal right to confess. Confessions never directly insures and addresses punishment for the crime that is being admitted too, by the person admitting or those it is incriminating with the person confessing.
At some point a proper Medical term should be developed that is not directly describing a confession, as Abortion does. Offering a somewhat less self-incriminating request for medical treatment. A term that might match the many witness descriptions or Medical reasons behind their use publicly.
The suggestion from reading the Hippocratic Oath is to generalize the Medical procedure to offer a Doctor patient privacy. Abortion has a specialized set of conditions which label it as illegal. Those limited conditions do not apply to all (Basic Name) Gender Specific Amputations that are performed by the Medical community.
The term Abortion has a specialized limit already in place as a confession, a position between sexual misconduct and rape. With protections and opportunity for many reasons to extend the legal reach of sexual offences beyond Statutes of limitation. The extension comes with a direct cost not just in dollars and cents but in criminal investigation time as a common defense to the general welfare of all people.
That this topic, abortion has not been addressed fully by the Civil, Medical, Criminal, and Judicial governing bodies is questionable.
Abortion is either legal or it is illegal by the fact it is nothing more than a confession made when spoken or written down. It is describing an action a woman is taking, it describes evidence that can be collected.
To fully understand the issue at hand, a non-biased description taken from both men and woman as a witness, Gender Specific Amputation. Which is clearly not a confession in any way.
The agreement is the mother should choose, which means she will have to make a choice. Confessing to a crime or give birth to a child does not describe all legal choices, and to have only this choice to receive medical treatment and care.
Abortion can always be proven as legal or illegal with no exception. It is a confession and that is the way all confessions work. They are not deemed by a court to all be justified and instantaneously declared legal as a group. (That’s religion not law) Gender Specific Amputation is a term that is always legal, it doesn’t contain a confession and falls within the Medical Hippocratic Oath. This term and terms described like it, at some point when abused may be proven to be illegal. But, do not imply in advance of medical treatment that they are.
Abortion will always have the troubling convenience of having a confession being made in writing for any woman to receive Emergency medical care. Meaning, No Woman! Facing medical dangers should be forced under United States Constitution to bear witness against herself to receive licensed medical treatment.
How is making the confession to any crime legal, changing the circumstance and outcome behind why a possible crime takes place, it doesn’t.
Abortion is saying something is officially being stopped. What is being stop? Human life. If any person officially stopes human life, how else can that be described by some-one who witnesses it? Murder? Can evidence be collected in a possible murder? Should evidence be collected in a possible murder?
Gender Specific Amputation describes an Emergency or Accidental removal. It has no confession tide to it. As a person defending the “United States Constitution” form incrimination here is a question. Why is a woman being ask to confess to a crime by other woman before receiving Medical treatment?
At what point does it convert from abortion to murder? When the baby comes out of the womb? I don't think passing through a small hole changes your status as a human being unless I am mistaken. The only logical argument to make for abortion being legal is a case in which the mother's life (not health but life) is in danger. If the mother is in fact going to die from childbirth, then abortion is appropriate. If a woman is raped that does not justify her to murder a child. There is no reason to murder a child in that situation. There has been no evidence to suggest that bad behavior or immorality is genetic. The baby won't be a rapist just because its father was. If the mother can't support the baby she can always put it up for adoption. Any argument for abortion can be countered by adoption except the case in which the mother's life is at stake. If the mother deserves rights to her body where are the rights of the child? Why just because the baby can't open its eyes yet it suddenly doesn't have the right to a free life? The Declaration of Independence specifically states that each man is born equal with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Just because a fully developed baby hasn't been born yet it suddenly loses those rights? Not to mention the process by which they perform an abortion is just vile. One method of an abortion is the crack the baby's skull open and suck the brains out so the skull collapses and they can pull the body out. Does that sound humane? Doesn't that sound like a sick way to go? Having your skull crushed before you even have a chance to open your eyes and see the world?
According to the judiciary, whose prerogative it is to interpret and apply the Constitution, the interest of the government is limited according to how the term "life" has been construed by that adjudicating body. Not that I am clear in the first as to why we should restrict this discussion to a strictly US jurisprudence. Nor is it given beyond such a context that anything unborn at any stage is defensibly construed of as constituting "life", though you assert it as if it were.
Only the confessing part is legal in abortion as it is only an admittance, confession too. The law broken will still need to be justified or dismissed to be legally cleared? A basic separation to the insured would requires a Grand Jury evaluation by case, not consensus.
Roe vs. Wade is based on restriction placed on, and based on a right to privacy. The Supreme Court overturned a Texas interpretation of “abortion law”, not Federal or State law regarding a person’s Confessions.
In addition to the reasons that abortion itself can be justified:
Self-defense - All pregnancies pose a risk to the mother.
Mercy - a fetus that is in pain and will not live.
Selective reductions - from triplets to twins, or twins to a single, etc. - to improve the overall chances for those remaining.
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There are additional arguments against making abortion illegal:
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Ineffectiveness:
"Highly restrictive abortion laws are not associated with lower abortion rates." (ref)
Laws making it harder to get abortions are making them happen later in the gestation, and are more dangerous/costly, etc.
Complexity:
The actual complexity of writing a law that applies for the range of possible circumstances:
Should selective reductions to improve the health of multiples be legal?
Should it be legal to protect the life of the mother? (how certain does the doctor have to be that death is likely?)
Should it be legal to protect the health of the mother? (how do you define "health" - severe organ damage? mental health?)
If a 10 year old is raped by an uncle and becomes pregnant - which is better: having the child or an abortion? Who gets to make the decision?
Should embryonic stem-cells be used for research or in curing diseases?
What about extra fertilized eggs created for in-vitro fertilization?
Would several forms of birth control pills, IUDs, etc. become illegal?
What penalties should be imposed on the woman, the doctor, other people who knew?
Enforcement:
Is it reckless endangerment for child-capable women to consume coffee/soda/tea, sushi/oysters/clams/mussels/crab, several types of fish, homemade ice cream, mayonnaise, lox, steak tartar, pâté, unpasteurized milk, soft cheese, deli meat, etc. etc.? If she has consumed any of these and has a miscarriage, is she guilty of negligent homicide?
Should all miscarriages be investigated as potential abortions/murders?
The cost of investigating all the new potential crimes and jailing of all the new criminals, etc.
Scarcity:
Are there lots of 9 month pregnant women getting abortions to fit into a dress for a party?
Alternatives:
Focusing on education about the responsibilities of sex, using protection, etc. reduces abortions.
An IUD program in Colorado was very successful at reducing both teen pregnancy and abortion rates (ref)
Minority women constitute only about 13% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion
On average, 1,876 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.
You going to mention the black genocide that is taking place ? Or did you skip that fact
Black women collectively killing their offspring can constitute genocide.
The definition of genocide does not specify the manner in which the killing is done; the deliberate killing of a particular ethnic group (in massive numbers) is the only condition that need be present. Therefore, if his (massive) numbers are accurate, he can euphemistically term the label of their aggregate actions, though non-conspiratorial, as genocide.
By your definition, every deliberate killing would be genocide (even mercy killings, etc.) - it isn't.
"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"
A) You have separated deliberate from its use - it is not that the killing is deliberate, it is that the systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group is deliberate.
B) one killing is not a systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
"By your definition, every deliberate killing would be genocide (even mercy killings, etc.) - it isn't."
By my definition, every collectively deliberate killing of a specific racial group may be considered a non-standard form of genocide.
"A) You have separated deliberate from its use - it is not that the killing is deliberate, it is that the systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group is deliberate."
There are several differently phrased definitions of the word genocide.
"B) one killing is not a systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"
If 1,000 Nazis killed 1,000 Jews, obviously with each Nazi killing 1 Jew, would that be considered genocide? You see, it is not one lady killing one baby, it is hundreds of thousands of women killing hundreds of thousands of babies. The collective action done to a particular racial group, though done by the same racial group, is what I am suggesting may be considered a form of genocide.
This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 16 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated "Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 36 million, the missing 16 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America's Black community would now number 52 million persons. It would be 36 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member."
16 million aborted black babies posed a risk to the mother ?
How does abusing any woman’s confession in any way fix all pregnancy issues?
Enforcement:
There are legal responsibilities that are required when a confession is made, the rules are different for public confession, and private confessions. The United States Constitution describes law enforcement as only a part of the separation process. The United States Constitution does not enforce the law. It enforces the contesting of law, for the general welfare of the people.
Security:
How many woman understand that abortion is a confession to a crime?
Those who have the responsibility of the child (in this case, I assume the preconception is about mothers) ought to be allowed to exercise their authority on what they want to happen. Because responsibility and authority go hand-in-hand.
If a religion is to be given the authority to decide, then they must be willing to take the responsibility if no one else is. For starters, eliminate world poverty to show that they can be trusted with the responsibility.
A lot of mothers who have went through abortion say they regret doing that. It leaves a permanent scar and a long lasting guilt that you have killed an innocent fetus.
Of course, if they have taken the responsibility and authority, then they can't run from the psychological consequences.
That'd be a flaw in their individual judgement, an error for which they must suffer.
If, say, you are embarrassed for posting something online, then would your first reaction be that you should never have been allowed to use a device in the first place?
Yes abortion should be made legal because some of the reason why mothers get abortions are related to health and financial issues. Making abortions illegal will result in people being forced to keep the child/children. This can lead to bad parenting which can have serious consequences on both the parents and the child.
Making abortions illegal will result in people carrying out illegal and unsafe abortions. Which will than lead to the government spending more money behind these illegal actions.
Did you deliberately ignore the most important part of her argument?
Making abortions illegal will result in people carrying out illegal and unsafe abortions. Which will than lead to the government spending more money behind these illegal actions.
Since when did we start caring for the well being of the killer? If a killer goes down some back alley to end a life, she is choosing the ramifications of such an act.
When we care for a pregnant woman's well being, we should have more crisis pregnancy centers with volunteers helping these women who have no support.
Do you even care about the severe feelings of guilt and depression of women who have abortions? Nah, you just want to get rid of babies that might someday cost you money.
Our government has always spent money to protect innocent life. Do you think your life is worth Government spending money to protect it?
You don't have the right to murder your baby, you dumb fucking whore. Use contraception, or close your whore legs. Abortion outside of medical necessity of the mother, is alway murder, no exceptions., I hope you are unable to conceive children. You should be ashamed. I'm ignoring you, since there is no block button.
It shouldn't be the government's choice, nor should it be yours. The mother should choose whether or not to have an abortion. If abortion was illegal, some women may go through with it anyway. It would be unsafe, and would most likely lead to both the mother and baby passing away.
The planet is overpopulated, we cannot keep reproducing at this rate. You can say it is killing Innocent human beings, but every day 15,000 children die of hunger anyways. I dont see any of you "Pro-life" people doing much to stop that.
You are a liar. Christians are the biggest organizations feeding starving children around the world.
Christians and Conservatives care for all our innocent lives, before and after birth!
You sit there and talk about 15,000 children dieing of hunger, and rather than fighting for better ways to feed these children, your answer is KILLING THEM!
LOL, what pathetic garbage you spew. On one hand you worry about babies starving to death, and then your answer is to kill them! HELLO? Not only don't you care about these lives, you support killing them before you even know if they would starve.
You can't make this stuff up! How inhuman your thinking!
This is the absolute depravity of those on the Left. You can't even hear your own words when spewing your hatred towards our most innocent lives.
You just asked why it isn't good to kill the people who you think will have miserable lives.
CAN YOU EVEN GRASP HOW THAT MAKES YOU SOUND?
Lets go down to the foster homes and kill all those miserable kids ok?
This is what makes debate sites so unnerving, when we see the types of people walking our streets who lack the most basic humanity to protect our most vulnerable innocent lives.
Killing them isn't needed. Someone has accepted to take their responsibility, and would be rather capable of it. So, there is no reason for that.
I'm not a ruthless killer of children. But, would you still be drinking water, which you know is dangerous, by saying that refusing to drink water is a violation of life? Small sacrifices don't really matter compared to the result otherwise.
You should know, no religion can become popular enough without those small sacrifices (at least until 500 years ago) on human life.
This number is rising, we are heading towards 8 billion people very fast, and our earth cannot sustain with this many people. There is not food for all of us, and after sick people the first to die are usually children.
Abortion is great. I don't want the underclass of society who rely off taking government handouts who are too dumb to use birth control to continue reproducing uncontrollably.
Brain activity can't even be measured until 25 weeks, If something doesn't have regular brain activity, it's like killing pondweed.
If you had a daughter and she fell pregnant through the act of rape, would you make her keep it? Would you let her relive an experience as traumatic as that every time she looked at her baby? Could you do the same? No.
There are circumstances where abortion is magnificent act and a pregnancy resulting from rape is one of them.
Stopping safe abortion is still stopping part of the number of abortion cases. At least now when safe abortion is stopped, ladies now think twice before having sex without protection methods
Sadly it is legal and should be made illegal immediately. The fetuses have a right to life. They are living people too. And no, abortion should not be allowed in the case of rape or incest.
Making them illegal will just lead to problems such as people performing abortions incorrectly and illegally, people using unsafe equipment to carry out abortions, people asking for a lot of money for an illegal abortion, even law obeying citizens might be forced to get abortions illegally.
Abortion is not something that can be handled properly if it is made illegal. Yes make tighter laws but making it illegal is too much.
Well the baby is reliant on the mother so it's up to the mother.
Also the baby will never know what happened as it's brain haven't developed to comprehend it's own existence outside the womb. The baby loses out on the chance to live but it's dosent know that.
It was the mother who made the baby and it's like correcting a mistake where there are no negative effects