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15
10
YES NO
Debate Score:25
Arguments:23
Total Votes:26
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 YES (14)
 
 NO (9)

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Should any government intervention be tolerated in the marketplace?

Man Economy State

YES

Side Score: 15
VS.

NO

Side Score: 10
1 point

Well, I suppose that I support aspects of intervention, but I hardly call it intervention in the marketplace (only because I went to your link and the broad definitions make me feel this way).

First, police and military. Now, I know, PF is an anarcho-capitalist and has his answers for why government isn't needed at all, but I don't trust that the market can effectively protect the citizens when needed. As nice as the Anarcho-capitalist solution sounds, we'd have to FIRST privatize absolutely everything and then hope to God that contracts would hold without government to enforce them. Property rights do not exist if no one is enforcing those rights.

So government needs to tax us to establish a simple security force. One that protects us from each other and from foreign invaders. The constitutionality of it would prevent government from being able to expand the powers of these forces, and while, clearly, it hasn't been perfect, I hardly see Anarcho-Capitalism being the answer. Limited power is what we want, not elimination of power.

Second service I believe the government should provide is a voucher program for basic needs such as food, water, and healthcare. Friedman also supported education, and I guess it would be good to get the liberals off of our backs for a while, but truly I don't even support education vouchers. To think that poor people would be safer under AC is ridiculous. Poor people would still be poor, but this time they will have no food or healthcare in anyway. With a government system, as flawed as they may be, who's few functions is to protect the people (be it from criminals or hunger), it would be efficient enough to keep a steady flow of protection for the weak and poor. AC implies social Darwinism, because without any enforcement, that is the only path it can really lead towards. Either that or Puritania, but the Socialists kind of make the same mistake. Too much assumption that people would be able to do all these things.

And third would be a standard currency. One that is used to pay the vouchers, collect the taxes, and pay the military. It wouldn't hold as much strength as the current currency, it would just be used to make taxation easier. A Federal bank using sound currency such as Gold or something.

Maybe the future holds something better, because one of the worst things to come from government is our need for a standard currency. It's what allows government to believe that it can intervene in the market more than it should. But so far, this is all I got, and I hate all the Anarchist solutions that keep coming up, be it AC, AS, or plain old Anarchy.

Side: YES
1 point

First, police and military.

Police security forces are really counter-intervention to mostly autistic intervention such as drugs, prostitution and now soda and junk food and in some cases binary and triangular.

Military forces would be minimal because they would be non preemptive wars and subject to market demands come if need be. Government military is constantly curtailed by the military industrial complex. Private military companies wouldn't be paid unless absolutely necessary.

God that contracts would hold without government to enforce them. Property rights do not exist if no one is enforcing those rights.

Murray Rothbard notes, "police service is not 'free'; it is paid for by the taxpayer, and the taxpayer is very often the poor person himself. He may very well be paying more in taxes for police now than he would in fees to private, and far more efficient, police companies. Furthermore, the police companies would be tapping a mass market; with the economies of such a larger-scale market, police protection would undoubtedly be much cheaper."

Second service I believe the government should provide is a voucher program for basic needs such as food, water, and healthcare.

Again, in order for government to provide these services, binary intervention is a must, so some people see this as a form of stealing. People, who are simply indigent, are taken care of by private charities because of the voluntary exchange and compassion.

And third would be a standard currency.

True, there is a standard currency, and free people and markets decide this, for thousands of years, it was gold as the standard and silver as the parallel currency.

Side: NO
ThePyg(6738) Disputed
1 point

Police security forces are really counter-intervention to mostly autistic intervention such as drugs, prostitution and now soda and junk food and in some cases binary and triangular.

And murder, thievery, and rape.

Private military companies wouldn't be paid unless absolutely necessary.

If militaries would rarely be used, what company would invest greatly in maintaining a private military that hardly makes it property?

He may very well be paying more in taxes for police now than he would in fees to private, and far more efficient, police companies.

Poor people are taxed at a very low level. Sure, the taxing system, as it currently is, could be fixed, but to have lower class Americans rely on their own money to protect themselves is cold. And middle class would then have to allocate so many of their resources to make sure they're protected. And then whoever can buy the most guns would probably be the guy who shakes people down. Too much tribalism involved with this.

in order for government to provide these services, binary intervention is a must, so some people see this as a form of stealing.

A form of stealing, sure. But it's to keep people from starving or dying of disease. It's a sense of humanism. Against Social Darwinism. We can not rely on charities unless they ALREADY have been successful in providing food stamps and healthcare vouchers.

Maybe we can ween ourselves off of vouchers, but until then, they are what I see as necessary.

Side: YES
1 point

Government intervention is required in marketplaces where a product can be harmful.

I know this is broad, let me offer some examples. The FDA is government control on the marketplace. Prior to any regulations the food we were eating was not safe. (not sure it is now,, but that is another argument) A factory that has no emission control pollutes our environment. Cigeraettses are harmfula nd the public should know and the people can choice.

Side: YES

We have business A, B and C. They all sell the same product. The products are of the same quality. A found a trick. That trick allowed him to sell his product cheaper. The mass will buy the product of business A. It will grow and destroy the other businesses. Normal. It is fair that one with the better idea wins. Survival of the fittest.

Government includes legislative, executive and judiciary. So, none of those branches are involved in the marketplace. So, no regulation at all. Right? Nothing will stop business A from growing. Nothing will save the other businesses from perishing. Nothing will also stop other businesses from taking business A’s spot or tie. This system allows an evolution of the market.

Whatever trick is allowed and encouraged. Ruse will survive. Not force. Business A sells shoes. Let us say that the reason his shoes are cheaper is that he makes them in China. He also hires a few desperate Americans. The Chinese and few Americans are happy because they have a job. The buyers are happy because they get what they want while saving money.

Business D figured out business A’s trick and starts doing the same thing. So, no regulation allows competition and therefore the development of more efficient ways. Eventually it will reach the point where production cannot be more efficient ( or it just did not find it yet).

With no regulations, businesses can scam the mass. A few commercials there, a couple smiles here, business E won because he found a way to lure the mass toward him. Meaning, it was able to direct the buyer’s desires with arguments. There still is no problem because the mass ishappy.

However, there still is this one guy in the mass who sees though the scam and buys from another business. SO, The mass has to be blind enough to be scammed. It must also remain blind. BUT MOST OF ALL THE MASS MUST STAY HAPPY… and kept in perpetual childhood.

Happiness is achieved when our desires are satisfied meaning when our pains of life are taken away from us.

What keeps the mass happy? Those pleasures and superficial necessities they sell us to spare us the pains of living but most all the troubles of thinking. BUT the mass is happy. So, there still is no problem. Who wants to do all the thinking when someone can do it for them? The businesses can’t hurt the mass because the mass is protected by the government. The businesses are not forcing anyone. You are safe. You get what you think you want.

The mass is not free.

The businesses confine our free will in a smaller space. They do not break our freedom of choice but softens it, in order to bend and direct it. They do not tyrannize. They hinder, compress, extinguish and finally reduce each and one of us to nothing more than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which they are the shepherd.

No government in the marketplace will put the mass under a “soft dictatorship”.

Side: YES
1 point

yes infact they should comp;etely control the market so noone gets too rich

Side: YES

There is some areas of appropriate government intervention, what? Police, Military, and courts.

Side: YES

I would have said "no" a few days ago. Now, I'm not so sure. If there were no restrictions, what would stop an oil tycoon from the Middle East from purchasing every single aspect of that market? The shops, the food, the materials, the area that it rests on, and eventually, the people.

The government is the only force large enough to say, "Fuck no, our entire country will turn to shit if you buy us."

The market owners will simply see dollar signs when the oil tycoon wants to purchase them.

Side: YES

When certain businesses are treating the consumer unfairly, then the Government should step in.

Side: YES

Three types of intervention: Autistic, Binary and Triangular

Government will always force a separation between ownership and control, and it creates a moral hazard for both the citizens and the government. Intervention is basically the desire to expropriate resources through interventionism at the expense of other parties.

Interventionism involves coercive co-ownership, so citizens haven an incentive to evade it. For example, whether it is evade taxes, emigrate to different regions, choose a different profession, evade regulations or prohibitions, human action tells us that coercive means in the marketplace is unproductive. Therefore, when there is interventionism, there is an greater incentive to use the personal property for consumption rather than investment. The general tendency of interventions is towards excessive consumption and more expensive production because of the necessity to evade the intervention.

Government relies on the resources from taxes and regulations. Government has the propensity to growth with more taxes and regulations to neutralize the ways that citizens evade its previous intervention. In other words, it is to "close the loopholes."

Interventionist government has an great incentive to extend taxation to all parts of the economy; it wants to regulate industries that have so far escaped regulation and beat those countries that serve as tax havens.

The ultimate goal is to reinforce the excessive and coercive power of the state. It is for excessive consumption and insufficient production, basically, government wants to impoverish society because government only makes us poorer.

Government interventionism is not neutralized by contractual devices, it is just imposed. The very meaning of interventionism is to overrule the choices of property owners.

So, when citizens see how high the next tax will be, the next step is how to evade it.

Supporting Evidence: Intervention (wiki.mises.org)
Side: NO