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Debate Info

30
19
Yes, I'm American. No, I'm a liberal.
Debate Score:49
Arguments:45
Total Votes:50
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Argument Ratio

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 Yes, I'm American. (25)
 
 No, I'm a liberal. (15)

Debate Creator

NKJV(511) pic



Should military/paramedics/fire fighters ectetera be allow to pray in uniform?

Yes, I'm American.

Side Score: 30
VS.

No, I'm a liberal.

Side Score: 19

Who cares how they pray? The First Amendment gives you the right to practice your religious beliefs in public, and the Armed Forces/public services shouldn't be barred from this in any case.

Side: Yes, I'm American.

Pray however the hell they want for Christ’s sake. Can’t we all just wear what we want? (Pardon my expressions)

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

Well considering they do why do you ask should they be allowed ?

Incidentally if they’re a member of the church of Satan should they be allowed pray also ?

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

Yes, members of the Church of Satan should be and are allowed to pray in the military. I don't see why you'd want to be a firefighter or paramedic if you were a satanist, though.

Side: No, I'm a liberal.
Dermot(5738) Disputed
1 point

. I don't see why you'd want to be a firefighter or paramedic if you were a satanist, though.

Why do you say that ?

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

Why wouldn't they be allowed? What they do for a living is to help people and if they need assistance from whatever deity they believe in to do so, go for it.

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

Yes, I'm an American LIBERAL. If they feel the "need" I have absolutely no objection .... as long as it doesn't interfere with their(s) or others duties. I believe in freedom of (or from) religion, I agree with the separation of church and state, I believe people have rights ... as long as they don't step on the rights of others. Yes, I'm an American. I wouldn't consider myself one unless I DID believe in these things!

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

They do everything else in their uniforms so why not pray?

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

As long as there are tests, the will be prayer in schools ;)

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

I'm confused, could you please clarify what you mean by this?

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

Student's pray before a test ;)

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

Per the 1st Amendment in the Bill of Rights: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"... For the government to prevent them from praying they would be guilty of prohibiting the free exercise of their religious faith,

Side: Yes, I'm American.
3 points

6 year Navy veteran, Atheist, and liberal here. And yes! Let them pray in uniform. Nobody is challenging freedom of religion in the military, other than not allowing Atheist chaplains. If anyone is challenging them being able to pray then no one's listening to that person. Everywhere the Navy's sent me, participation in religious practices has been respected- in fact, supervisors are not allowed to keep you at your workcenter during time of your worship service, if you choose to go. Every night one of the Chaplains prays on the PA system (we call it the 1MC). Believe it or not, I don't care whether you want to pray in uniform, or in public, or under any other circumstances you want as long as you keep it your own business. I hold very few caveats to this, one being: If you are in uniform and you put yourself in the public eye expressing opinions or supporting an organization outside of your branch of service or praying, it is important to establish that your opinion is your own and does not represent any official stance of the department of defense. Second: Don't expect me or anyone else to participate. Ordering someone to participate is unlawful, as is mandatory command participation of religious practice of any kind, as is basing evaluation of command participation on religious practices or lack thereof, or any other form of religion based discrimination. Third: it can't interfere with everyone else's day-to-day work. We had a guy who wanted to get on his desk and yell at folks that they were going to hell, and he tried to argue religious freedom. Doesn't work that way; religious freedom grants you religious freedom, and everyone else religious freedom, not the freedom for you to walk all over someone else's beliefs, especially if you're interfere with the day-to-day mission.

Basically: If you do your job, I don't care what your religious practice is, and in fact I'm legally barred from telling you not to practice it. Just don't expect me to be ok with it directly interfering with my life.

Side: No, I'm a liberal.
pinnacle19(36) Disputed
1 point

6 year Navy veteran, Atheist, and liberal here. And yes! Let them pray in uniform. Nobody is challenging freedom of religion in the military, other than not allowing Atheist chaplains. If anyone is challenging them being able to pray then no one's listening to that person. Everywhere the Navy's sent me, participation in religious practices has been respected

Devout Christian priest here. Served as a minister for the last fifteen years. And no!! The military should not be paying soldiers to do what they should be doing in their free time. How would you feel if a Muslim soldier stopped an important march because he had to pray to Allah?

Nobody has a problem with your freedom to worship God. But I find it incredible that you would pretend to be an atheist and military veteran just so you can argue that your private beliefs should be paid for by your employer.

Side: Yes, I'm American.
excon(15689) Disputed
3 points

And no!! The military should not be paying soldiers to do what they should be doing in their free time.

Hello p:

Nahh... There IS no free time for soldiers.. They're paid 24 hours a day. Yes, EVEN while they're sleeping, and sipping a beer at the local bar..

excon

Side: No, I'm a liberal.
AlofRI(3276) Clarified
1 point

As I said in the other column, "....as long as it doesn't interfere with their duties."

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

The military should not be paying soldiers to do what they should be doing in their free time.

The military doesn't pay you to pray. I have no idea as to where you obtained this notion.

How would you feel if a Muslim soldier stopped an important march because he had to pray to Allah?

I've never heard of a single Muslim soldier stopping an entire march just because he had to pray. Soldiers know not to do this in the first place, especially when they understand the importance of the objective.

just so you can argue that your private beliefs should be paid for by your employer.

Again, no one is paying you to pray in the military.

Side: Yes, I'm American.
SexyJesus(228) Disputed
1 point

Well, lots to unravel here. First, I'll pretend it's not immensely disrespectful of you to accuse me of stolen valor as I float out here in the Atlantic on an aircraft carrier at this very moment, all because I don't fit the stereotype you've developed of either the veteran or the atheist or the liberal that you're clearly basing your accusations upon. I'll also assume that the Christian priest bit was sarcasm; that's the only way I can make sense of either your insistence that people shouldn't be able to practice their religion or that I'm 'arguing my private beliefs should be paid for by my employer', when I've made it clear I don't have religious beliefs and that would mark a clear bias against the employment of chaplains. I'll instead do my best to address the legitimate concerns you've brought up of balancing religious freedom versus mission capability.

Believe it or not, the US military does have a vested interest in maintaining people's ability to practice their religion and attend services, as a matter of command mental health and morale. The availability of chaplains for people to go and talk to about personal problems is also invaluable- this is one of the reasons that I am of the opinion that we need atheist chaplains, because for atheists there are no secular alternatives that carry the same legally binding nondisclosure agreements (that, however, is another debate)

At my last command in Florida, we had an Airman who was Muslim. One of the best sailors I ever worked with really, the kid was motivated as hell, did his job well, got his qualifications, was even talking about going to BUDS . Fridays at noon he would cut out and go to his worship service, and that was fine. As his supervisor, I let him, not that I really had a choice. I had no problem with that, because 1: he otherwise worked hard, and 2: it was an organized religious function, and the only one of its kind during the week. If he had screwed around all week, there would be counseling and other consequences for that kind of behavior. If there were alternatives, those alternatives would have to be considered. And if he didn't actually go to his services, there would be consequences for that too. The kid knew that well, because we had another guy get caught fishing when he said he would be at some official function- I think it was a medical appointment, I don't really remember- and he got in all kinds of trouble for that stunt.

As far as stopping in the middle of mission critical events, obviously if we're being actively attacked or performing some kind of mandatory all-hands evolution then that takes priority, but short of that then we're usually able to let folks go if their work is otherwise caught up. Not complete- rarely is there such a thing- but caught up. The same goes for plenty of other personal events when you're in the military, from medical appointments, to attending classes, even sometimes just getting your kids to school in the morning if for some reason the usual routine for that breaks down. Life happens.

This isn't to say there aren't limits. Standards have to be upheld. The work has to get done. But if someone wants some time here and there for personal things, including but not limited to religious practices, and they otherwise do their job, that's something we typically allow them.

Side: No, I'm a liberal.
1 point

You chose the other side of the debate, but gave the same answer I gave, basically. I don't know of any other answer an "American" liberal could give on EITHER side of this debate. To bad so many have such twisted views of "Americans"; "liberals"; and "atheists". The NON-American ones are those who think that they can only BE "American" if they pray to the Christian "God", and ONLY the Christian God. THAT is NOT American, THAT is authoritarian.

Side: No, I'm a liberal.
1 point

As a soldier your god should be your government and royal family depending if you have a president or a prime minister respectively.

No authority or teachings in scripture should matter to you. When your superior orders you to torture and kill, you should willingly go to hell as you torture Iraqis or Americans depending on your side and throw their body into a bag at the end of it.

If you had a remotely in tact moral compass, you'd end up with PTSD oh wait, they usually do. :) Most war as it is today and in the past is for corruption to maintain itself. Worldwide anarchy is the solution and then soldiers will be brain-having agnostics who act on a moral compass.

Side: No, I'm a liberal.
TheMask(127) Clarified
1 point

@Mingiwuwu

Have you ever heard of Jacque Fresco? If so what are your thoughts on his vision of the future?

Side: Yes, I'm American.
1 point

As a soldier your god should be your government

What if your god is against the war, for lack of a better phrase? Also, if not your country's government, who are you working for as a soldier? They're the ones paying you, not a god.

Side: Yes, I'm American.
Mingiwuwu(1446) Disputed
1 point

Actually this is precisely the issue with letting them have freedom of religion.

Side: No, I'm a liberal.
1 point

Well I'm both a liberal (socialist) and not an American, so I'm putting my argument here. Why does it matter if people pray in uniform? They can do it if they want to, preferably off-duty.

Side: No, I'm a liberal.