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62
56
Yes No
Debate Score:118
Arguments:106
Total Votes:128
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 Yes (45)
 
 No (36)

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JustIgnoreMe(4290) pic



Should most abortions be considered self defense?

Rather than defending abortion on the grounds of privacy/liberty, etc., I think people should discuss it in terms of self-defense.


Notes:

I said "most" rather than "all" because there are cases of severe abnormality the might better be considered mercy killing and cases like selective reductions, etc.

I've discussed this in a couple different debates, but wanted to give it a debate of its own - to make it easier for people to find and for me to link people to.

Yes

Side Score: 62
VS.

No

Side Score: 56

Bringing a pregnancy to term poses imminent harm to the pregnant woman - (hormonal/mental/emotional, social, financial, physical, etc., etc.)

A woman has a self-defense right to protect herself from those harms.

Side: Yes
FromWithin(8241) Disputed
2 points

Imagine if we used your same inhuman excuses for killing innocent life after they travel down the birth canal.

Children can cause women many mental/emotional/social/financial harm no matter the age of the child. SO LETS KILL THEM!!!!!! That's your answer! LOL, what a selfish inhuman amoral fool!

You are laughable, your pathetic excuses to kill even innocent viable babies for any reason up to birth when you vote for this extremist Democrat party.

We already have life of mother exceptions for abortions! The GOP want a simple compromise of 20 weeks (with extreme case exceptions) but this extremist pro aborton Democrat party refuse to compromise even though over 80% of Americans do want restrictions on abortions. The Democrat party is tied to pro abortion lobby groups. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND VOTES FOR THESE INHUMAN POLITICIANS.

If you vote for these extremists (and hllary is one who supports no restriction abortions for any reason), you might as well use the forcepts yourself because you will be culpable for the inhumanity.

Side: No
2 points

We already have life of mother exceptions for abortions

Do you have the right to self-defense ONLY if your life is in danger?

Side: Yes
1 point

after they travel down the birth canal

Self-defense rules consider alternatives - if the child is already born, there is a better alternative - give the baby to someone else. An alternative not available in the womb.

Side: Yes
1 point

The GOP want a simple compromise of 20 weeks*

A) Some do, some don't - the official platform makes no exception whatsoever.

B) Age is irrelevant to the self-defense argument. You can kill a 30 year-old in self-defense.

Side: Yes
calvi(10) Disputed
1 point

wow!!! cant belive you said that its not your problem bitch

Side: Yes
KNHav(1957) Disputed
2 points

I have a friend, he is about 55 years old. He is a twin.

Raised in Philly by his mom and grandmom.

Great guy, super nice. He is half black and half Italian. He never knew his dad, because his dad was a rapist, who was never caught. His mom recently died at age of late 90s.

His grandmother was killed sometime in his 20s. Again another tragedy for his mom and his family. Both were black on white crimes. Which are neither here nor there regarding race, other than facts. And that my friend is mixed from a rape, and the inconvenience of this woman's decision to raise them herself despite the thug that raped her.

So this little Italian lady, who I had the pleasure of knowing, had her two black babies, not one but twins from a violent rape.

She never married after that. She also never had men to the house, She wasnt of that influence or generayion.

Raising twin mixed black children 55 years ago probably wasn't easy for her and her little old mother from Italy, especially for this woman who lived with her Italian mother in a liw class Italian and mixed area of Philly, who like many Italians of that time, grandmom's was from off the boat.

My friend adored his mom and grandmom. Very strong family ties. He is 5' 6" his twin is 6' 3. My friend looks like a black Italian guy. And funny as can be. Pleasant well adjusted. He and his wife just adopted three children over the last 5 years, from an Asian country. Lots of goodness and love in this man, who was birthed out of a tragedy.

So, I don't think he or his mom, or his grandmom's would have changed anything. Because out of tragedy God gave something greater than the that which was meant for evil.

.

Side: No
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

Do you think it should be illegal to shoot someone attempting rape?

Side: Yes
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

She has a right to use her brain ahead of time and buy a condom!

Side: No
1 point

As we've already discussed, about half of women seeking abortion reported using some form of birth control that month.

ref

How does this apply to whether abortion is self-defense?

Let's try to make an applicable analogy - if you leave the door to your house unlocked and an intruder enters, do you still have the right to self-defense?

Side: Yes

For self defense purposes, no.

There are, in my opinion a number of acceptable reasons why a pregnancy should/could be terminated but self defence isn't one of them.

Such an argument in support of an abortion is self defeating as, in almost all cases the termination procedure presents at least as big a danger as having the baby.

In the event of a ''back street'' abortion, the risk is significantly greater than giving birth.

Side: No
1 point

For self defense purposes, no.

Based on?

in almost all cases the termination procedure presents at least as big a danger as having the baby.

Completely not true

for both legal abortion - ref

and illegal abortion - ref

Side: Yes
3 points

As a consequence of your juvenile like ignorance your bullshit is almost forgivable.

For instance, do you have any idea what is involved in a ''back street'' abortion?

That was a rhetorical question as you clearly don't and made your embarrassingly uninformed response in a glaringly obvious and desperate attempt to eliminate any reply which exposes your bullshit for what it is.

Let me enlighten you my little man.

A backstreet abortion usually involves the use of a rubber bulbous instrument with a delivery tube, similar to a battery acid filler.

This is filled with a witch's brew of water, antiseptic solution, carbolic soap, an effervescent laxative and god knows what else.

This highly toxic liquid is then injected into the female's womb.

Upon completion of the process she is given a towel or a rug and told to walk around, usually through deserted alleyways, or fields, until the foetus comes away.

Of course it's seldom, if ever as simple as this and many deaths have occurred as well as destroying the possibility of the victim being able to conceive again.

The psychological damage is incalculable.

Only a shithead like you could possibly try to argue that this filthy process is safer than giving birth.

In numerous studies including one by Doctor Priscilla Coleman and Doctor David Reardon whose study included a large number of women, almost half a million, experiencing first time pregnancies. The data is wholly reliable as it was compiled from Danish Government sources including the fertility records of births and stillbirths, the national abortion registry and cause of death registry.

This extensive study revealed that during the first six months after an early abortion ( 12 weeks or less) a woman has double the risk of death compared to giving birth.

During the first year following a late abortion ( after 12 weeks ) a woman has three times the the risk of death compared to giving birth.

Not only is your post a complete ''abortion'' but you're imbecilic assertions are downright dangerous.

You are a fool trying to present yourself as someone with knowledge in a medial subject when it is clear you are only a dirty little phony.

If you has any integrity you would bow your head in shame and retract your utter nonsense and move on to yodelling up the canyon or some other pursuit more commensurate with your arrested intellect.

Side: No
Gypsee(347) Clarified
1 point

There are, in my opinion a number of acceptable reasons why a pregnancy should/could be terminated but self defense isn't one of them.

When pregnancy directly threatens the life of the mother, abortion is self defense. However, those cases are rare and isn't most abortions.

Side: Yes
3 points

FYI These are murders, blood spilt calls from the ground just like Abel's, and the babies murdered in Egypt and Bethlehem, and just like the Saints martyred. Revelations takes note of them all. This is blood crying to God for vengeance. All who do not wash their garments in the Savior, will be judged from the murderer to those who give approval to them! Murder in your heart is the same as the one who murders.

Luke 1:15

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.

Luke 1:41

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.Luke 1:44

For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

Luke 2:21

[ Jesus Presented at the Temple ] And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

Hosea 12:3

In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God.

Jeremiah 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Isaiah 49:5

And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength),

Job 31:15

“Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb?

Judges 16:17

So he told her all that was in his heart and said to her, “A razor has never come on my head, for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother’s womb. If I am shaved, then my strength will leave me and I will become weak and be like any other man.”

Genesis 25:23

The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger.”

Side: No
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

Does your understanding of the Bible lead you to believe that self-defense should be illegal?

Side: Yes
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Self defense is toward an act of violence of a perpetrator.

Accidental death would possibly be an unintentional accident occuring during self preservation but, I think the host maternal body should bear responsibility, and be the bigger person, not the innocent helpless baby in the womb of depravity who seeks to murder her own child. And what are we teaching people anyway?

I only know of psychos that use self defense against the weak and defenseless.

And thats just sicko murderous bullies!

Side: Yes

You are correct! Isn't it funny that over 80% of Americans claim to be Christian while they support killing babies that God knows in the womb.

Who do you think they are kidding? Not God, that is for sure!

Side: No
3 points

On one hand you claim that because Christians are a majority, we have to give you guys preferential treatment.

On the other hand, you claim the overwhelming majority of Christians aren't actually Christian.

Your opinions are internally inconsistent.

Side: Yes
1 point

Do Christians believe self-defense should be illegal?

Side: Yes
1 point

how do verses about how god knows people "Before I formed you in the womb" apply here?

Side: Yes
2 points

Self defense is offensive to you Democrats. Man or woman who defends themselves against criminals with a weapon just puts you Democrats into tailspin !

Side: No
1 point

Self defense is offensive to you Democrats.

Is it supported by you?

defends themselves

Does that include getting an abortion?

Side: Yes
2 points

When it comes to physical threats, I can say that abortion is self defense. For cases where pregnancy is a non-physical threat (financial, mental, mother's life plans), I don't believe the self defense laws protect abortion.

On the other hand, all pregnancies extremely affect a woman's body and lead to discomfort and pain. So, on those bases, all pregnancies is a to some degree a physical threat.

Side: No

Imagine if we used your same inhuman excuses for killing innocent life after they travel down the birth canal.

Children can cause women many mental/emotional/social/financial harm no matter the age of the child. SO LETS KILL THEM!!!!!! That's your answer! LOL, what a selfish inhuman amoral fool!

You are laughable, your pathetic excuses to kill even innocent viable babies for any reason up to birth when you vote for this extremist Democrat party.

We already have life of mother exceptions for abortions! The GOP want a simple compromise of 20 weeks (with extreme case exceptions) but this extremist pro aborton Democrat party refuse to compromise even though over 80% of Americans do want restrictions on abortions. The Democrat party is tied to pro abortion lobby groups. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND VOTES FOR THESE INHUMAN POLITICIANS.

If you vote for these extremists (and hllary is one who supports no restriction abortions for any reason), you might as well use the forcepts yourself because you will be culpable for the inhumanity.

Side: No
2 points

One would think that if your arguments were so strong, you'd actually be able to articulate them, particularly without insults and lies.

Funny how that doesn't pan out.

Side: Yes
Atrag(5666) Disputed
1 point

If a child reached into my body and grabbed an artery.. attaching it to its belly button and put me at risk of a number of life threatening conditions... I think self defense would be the appropriate defense to a murder charge if I killed it.

Side: Yes
FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

You read my post AND STILL YOU TALK ABOUT LIFE OF MOTHER ABORTIONS?

YOU TOTAL MORONIC FOOL!

Even when I explain what we are talking abut, YOU IGNORE IT and still spew your pathetic deception!

If it is a life threatening issue, the abortion would be allowed you mindless idiot!

Side: No
1 point

You're thinking outside of the box, but frankly that's an ugly argument which isn't going to persuade anyone.

I believe abortion is killing, and I believe our society (and most societies) consider it among the list of justifiable killings - comparable to self defense - but that doesn't make it the same thing as that.

Side: No
2 points

Didn't really expect someone like you to accept the truth and face up to the harshness of the indisputable facts.

Does the image of a female walking through the dog's shit of an alleyway in Belfast, or any other city for that matter, whilst discharging blood and the foetus is abortioning make you feel squeamish?

Oh you poor sensitive little boy, go to the bathroom and have a quick vomit and then pop off to bed and read Alice and wonderland.

That's a nice safe world up in cloud cuckoo land, right up your street.

I doubt very much that you read my post in it's entirety and know that you haven't researched the issue properly.

The facts of the ''backstreet abortions'' may be ugly but my post is nevertheless a true and accurate account of the procedure.

Are you such a mammy's boy wimp that you cannot face up to, or accept reality?

Your anti abortion argument is nothing more than naive, sanctimonious gobbledygook which is totally meaningless and has no place in the real world.

But then for that matter neither do you.

Side: Yes
1 point

You seem to be making a good argument that abortion should be legal, not that abortion is not self-defense.

Side: Yes
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

Actually, I think both sides just sticking to their talking points is less likely to be convincing to others.

Not only do most conservatives have a strong belief in self-defense, this also avoids some of the unwinnable arguments currently made - e.g. when does life begin, etc.

comparable to self defense - but that doesn't make it the same thing as that.

In what ways do you think there are important differences?

Side: Yes
Grenache(6053) Clarified
1 point

Self defense depends in part on the killer not really having an option other than succumbing and possibly dieing themselves. That's usually not true in pregnancy.

Side: Yes
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

outside of the box

kudos for the pun ;)

Side: Yes
1 point

Absolutely not, even the title of the thread is out of context as the accepted meaning of the term, self defense is normally associated with retaliatory physical force in protecting one's self or property.

Self preservation would have been a better choice of terminology.

However, abortion cannot be rationalized just by using either of these terms.

Side: No
2 points

Absolutely not, even the title of the thread is out of context as the accepted meaning of the term, self defense is normally associated with retaliatory physical force in protecting one's self or property.

Yes, the "Self" would be the woman's body, and the outside force would be the fetus.

Self preservation would have been a better choice of terminology.

Self preservation is the motivation behind self defense.

However, abortion cannot be rationalized just by using either of these terms.

It already has been within this debate many times.

Side: Yes
Cocopops(347) Disputed
1 point

No it hasn't, you're one of the site's bully boys I see. As far as I'm concerned abortion hasn't been justified even once, and certainly not by you. You are hallucinating, too much wanking in the toilets. Judging by your stance and your feeble attempt to defend the indefensible nonsense of a title you and your alter ego goat who created this argument are one of the same. Were you always a thick bastard?

Side: No
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

abortion cannot be rationalized just by using either of these terms

Why not?

Side: Yes
Cocopops(347) Disputed
1 point

Because I say so, and that's all that is required. You and your schizophrenic friend should go and screw each other. Send this to IamSpartacus on St, Valentine's day, Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic, and so am I. Your multi-personality disorder is really very obvious.

Side: Yes
Cocopops(347) Disputed
1 point

Because I say so, and that's all that is required. You and your schizophrenic friend should go and screw each other. Send this to IamSpartacus on St, Valentine's day, Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic, and so am I. Your multi-personality disorder is really very obvious.

Side: Yes