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It would make things interesting. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to only vote based on what the ballot says, but it would be better just to have names and ignore the fact that parties exist.
Political parties are cool. they expose collectivism in all types. the very fact that people need to make political parties shows just how stupid most human beings are. It's so easy to avoid true political discussion when all you need to do is see who's the Democrat and who's the Republican. Most Democrats probably ignore the fact that Obama gave himself the ability to kill Americans without due process or started two new wars bombing more innocent people because that isn't what Democrats view themselves as. And I bet most Republicans ignore that Romney pretty much created Obamacare because he's a Republican, and Republicans are for small government.
Words like "anti-war" and "free markets" get thrown around by these two parties and people actually believe that these candidates support it. They don't even research what it means to be against the War on Terror or market regulation or the Drug War. I bet there are still some idiots out there who believe that Obama wants to legalize marijuana, despite the fact that he has shut down more legal dispensaries in one term than Bush did in two.
And then these fuckin' conspiracy dipshits who think that Obama is from Kenya and worship Allah. Any dumb excuse to hate someone just because they're a Democrat.
But this is collectivism. It turns so many complex ideals of thought and discussion into easy to read retard symbols. Human beings, in general, are too stupid to think too hard about the economy and the effects of drugs and war. They'd rather hide behind their political parties' beliefs because it makes them feel like they know something.
So fuck it. remove the shit from the ballot. It won't make a difference, but at least we could have some dignity during our elections.
In the city I live, over the last two elections, I show up at the polling place and there are anywhere from 30 to 50 people standing in line. I am the only caucasion. Maybe a coincidence, but based on demographic changes over the last ten years for my southern California area, I argue not. What surprised me in both elections was watching and observing the voters that were coming in as a family group. The older generations typically did not speak English. However, I speak enough Spanish to understand "Vote for the people with D behind their names". Where are we as a nation heading over the next 20-years, when the only reason a leader is elected is because the larger share of non-informed voters elected him or her, simply because of party affiliation designation behind their name? It is time to elect a true LEADER, not a political party. Let's elect someone that knows how to move this country forward by creating the opportunities for us typical people that at least offer us the opportunity to create our own wealth. Let's stop with the nonsense of redistribution of wealth from those that succeeded to the back-end of the financial food chain. We are feeding the wrong end. Our current political climate is in control simply because they have the D behind their names and the letter D equates to some type of free governmental handout. Their motto should be, "Vote for D, Get something for free! Will it keep them in power? Absolutely. The question remains though, how long can this country support this type of leadership and "legal vote buying" before this country is totally bankrupt? My guess Obama's 2nd term will answer this question. Because keep in mind, his socialist agenda has been kept in check over the last four years so as not to upset his chances for reelection. Now the gloves are coming off. Now he has nothing to loose. Now we are all about to pay a price none of us could have ever imagined. Thanks to all the voters that simply marked "D" on their ballot instead of studying the contenders for the most powerful position in the world. I think we would have been better served to spend a few hours studying and acting as if we were an employer interviewing a potential applicant for a job. Because in simple terms, that's exactly what we are doing with our election process. We are failing as an employer because we are picking an employee (the President) because they have a great smile, a good personality, his wife looks good and his children appear to be behaved. If you were in business and were making these type of employment reviews and decisions, you would all have to admit you probably not be in business very long. Good looks and a great personality doesn't make you money unless your in the entertainment business. Sorry to say, our US Government should not be in place based upon the employment criteria of the movie business. They should be in place based upon their business sense. After all, isn't running the organization that controls the largest economy in the world actually a business? Of course it is. But that doesn't seem to matter to anyone anymore. Let's just pick a letter to vote for. Instead of removing the affiliation after the name, let's make it simple. Let's just remove the name. What's the difference!!!! Good luck to us all. We are going to need it.
I must respond to those that think removing the party affiliation might lower voter turnout.
To this, I say we can only hope so. Think about this logically. The leader with the most votes will likely be elected (excluding the electoral college for a moment). But, if you owned your own business, would you rather have a few knowledgeable and informed people running your business, let's say 6, or would you rather have 1,000 uninformed non-knowledgeable people making decisions for you that will impact your livelihood and that of your families? I personally will take the 6 over the 1,000 anytime. Nothing substitutes for taking the time to make well informed decisions. And I think we can all agree a well informed and studied decision offers a better chance of success than a wild guess. Our current election system has given too much power and credence to the "wild guessers" of our society.
I have a suggestion. Each state randomly selects 1,000 people. It becomes a mandatory civic duty, much like jury duty. And these people must attend classes over the next two weeks for 8-hrs per day doing nothing but learning about the candidates being considered for President. On the last two days, each candidate spend the entire day with nothing but 8-hours of open questions and answers. The candidates don't get to rehearse. They don't get teleprompters. They don't get assistants. It's just them and the 50,000. Then on the Monday after the 2nd week, they all vote. Whoever wins the popular vote out of the 50,000 voters at the end of that day becomes our next leader.
Some of you will think this concept insanity. But you will have to at least admit, if our election process were conducted this way, those 50,000 people would pick the best leader each and every time. Again, we need the best leader. We don't need 6-months of advertising spinning stories of why they are what they really aren't.
Two weeks + 50,000 people + 1-day = A Well Studied and "QUALIFIED" Leader.
Yes. I do not believe in political parties. They are a way for the government to track people. People should be judged on their position, not some retarded political party.
Political parties rally around their candidates and will defend them even when they act stupidly. Lessening political party influence may help reduce the insane incumbency rate.
Parties have platforms that people tend to either most agree with, or mostly disagree with. Including the party they are from makes it easier for those who don't have the time to research each individual candidate the opportunity to vote in the direction they prefer.
I think parties can exist and endorse candidates etc, but almost every candidate disagrees with their party platform in some regard. Let's say that one of the most important issues for you is abortion; there are many pro-choice Republicans and many pro-life Democrats - how do you know that the candidate on the ballot actually agrees with you and not the other candidate?
makes it easier for those who don't have the time to research each individual candidate
Exactly, it enables, if not encourages, low-information (and no-information) voters.
A party doesn't get elected - only and individual and people should know who they are voting for. It may sound harsh, but I think if people do not have the time to understand who they are voting for, they should not vote.
It helps lessen the power of the two main political parties if we vote based on something more than just their endorsement.
I'd argue if someone votes on a single issue, their very understanding of democracy and the United States as a whole isn't deep enough to merit extra attention as far as how ballots are laid out.
As for enabling low-information voting, okay, that makes sense. Saying it encourages it is not accurate I don't think. People don't make their way to the booth and vote because they think it's super easy. They're not like "I wasn't going to vote, but now that I know how easy it is I'm going to!"
I also think it is inaccurate to call voters low or no information just because they do not recognize a candidate's name. A person can be very knowledgeable about the issues, about where they stand on the issues, and not know what the name of the person who is running in district such and such.
Now, let's look at the other side of the issue. What if you were to discontinue having the party next to the candidate?
What's to stop someone with a ton of campaign financing to blanket certain areas with ads that say they are from the other party in order to get people to vote against their own self-interest?
Say a Romney has a billion + dollars in the bank and really wants to cut back unions. Why not advertise in pro-union areas "I Mitt Romney Love Unions and am a Democrat and if You Vote for Me You Can Keep Your Unions!"
The answer is absolutely nothing. In fact he could run that same ad now (actually surprised he hasn't done something like that) but at least with the party next to his name, those people would know the difference once they're in the booth.
It seems to me not having some party affiliation, whatever that may be, leaves far more room for dishonesty, and I'm not sure I see the payoff in return.
Say a candidate disagreed with the platform on multiple issues....
People don't make their way to the booth and vote because they think it's super easy.
However - say a voter says "I definitely want to vote John Doe for President" - having party affiliation on the ballot facilitates that voter to cast several votes for down-ballot races that they may know little or nothing about. Do they know the most pressing issues for corporation commissioners and how the listed candidates would vote?
What's to stop someone with a ton of campaign financing to blanket certain areas with ads that say they are from the other party in order to get people to vote against their own self-interest?
An informed electorate. And, if someone lies to get elected - they should be recalled.
he could run that same ad now
exactly
Also, if a person knows going into the booth "I want to vote for X", will party designation make them change their mind at the last second?
I'm not sure I see the payoff in return
-As for enabling low-information voting, okay, that makes sense
Say a candidate disagreed with the platform on multiple issues....
There are a limited number of issues one can disagree with and still remain on a particular party's ballot.
However - say a voter says "I definitely want to vote John Doe for President" - having party affiliation on the ballot facilitates that voter to cast several votes for down-ballot races that they may know little or nothing about. Do they know the most pressing issues for corporation commissioners and how the listed candidates would vote?
They do know though. Most candidates pretty much agree with all of the major issues that a party agrees with if they are on that party's ticket. If they have vague issues that may or may not fall under one platform or the other it is their responsibility to find out where that candidate stands.
An informed electorate. And, if someone lies to get elected - they should be recalled.
There's no guarantee it would be an "informed electorate." It would be less informed I think, since then the only way to know where a candidate stands is through ads, and ads can be misleading. Party affiliation lets people know where most of the candidates stand most of the time.
As for recall, that's a rare and difficult thing to do by design, and takes years. Damage could be done far before a recall is even possible.
exactly
Also, if a person knows going into the booth "I want to vote for X", will party designation make them change their mind at the last second?
Huh? No of course not. They would in finding out where they stand on a specific issue, have also found their party. The only danger I would see is without having a the party affiliation listed, it would be far too easy to trick a voter into thinking a candidate has a view or is going to pursue some legislation they have no plan of pursuing.
I'm not sure I see the payoff in return
-As for enabling low-information voting, okay, that makes sense
Low information voting is still far more helpful to the country and to individuals than not voting, or voting for the wrong guy.
This would trade the low percent of low information votes for a high percent of votes for the wrong guy and less voting overall.
It just sounds like a scheme to either get less people to vote or more people to vote for things they don't want.
If a candidate doesn't want their political affiliation listed I'm pretty sure every state allows for that. This "solution" isn't solving any existing problems, just creating them.
There are a limited number of issues one can disagree with
Yes, but that limit is more than one - which I believe is all that was sufficient to address your if someone votes on a single issue line of argument.
Mostcandidatespretty muchagree with all of themajorissues
That's a lot of qualifiers
If they have vague issues that may or may not fall under one platform or the other it is their responsibility to find out where that candidate stands
I like the shorter version of that sentence - it is their responsibility to find out where that candidate stands.
It would be less informed
The only added information would be their party being printed on the ballot - if they don't have even this cursory information by the time they go to vote - is it ok to base their vote solely on the party that is printed? If all people do is watch some ads then look at the party affiliation on the ballot, I would not consider them to be an informed voter. I think having additional demand for that knowledge before we go to the polls instead of just relying on the letter after their name will push candidates into fulfilling that demand.
Also, if one side has ads - generally so does someone else who can call BS.
As for recall, that's a rare and difficult thing to do by design
If someone lies about their position - it is not stopped by the party designation on the ballot. (or as you put it re: will party designation make them change their mind - "No of course not")
and takes years (wasn't going to address since it is not really relevant to the main topic, but most states actually have time limits of 30 to 180 days to get all of the required signatures depending on the state and the office)
in finding out where they stand on a specific issue, have also found their party
then why would it be advantageous to have it also on the ballot?
it would be far too easy to trick a voter
actually the opposite is true, especially for small elections or third parties.
Say you're a candidate in a medium suburb and you are (Republican/Democrat) and you think you will not win the election, but if there were a (Libertarian/Green) party person running, you would have a pretty good chance. You might try to talk someone into running as the (Libertarian/Green) in order to garner the votes of people who vote the (Libertarian/Green) party line (and crossover vote where allowed).
Low information voting is still far more helpful to the country and to individuals than not voting, or voting for the wrong guy.
I think I generally agree with you on most things on this site, so instead of blasting you I'll just give you a second chance to reevaluate that sentence.
It just sounds like a scheme
I am an election advocate and want lots more people voting (and to have every one of those votes counted as if democracy depends on it) - though I also think voters need to be informed.
I think that if Democrats or Republicans wanted such an idea, at least one of them would advocate for it (or at least mention it) - but all I can find are people like Jesse Ventura advocating for it.
With all due respect, if an individual doesn't have time to research the candidates and make an INFORMED vote, they have no business voting whatsoever.
I listed a couple of reasons over on the other side. I think you should already know by the time you go into the voting booth what that candidate is running for and an R or a D by their name is actually not a good way to know what they are running for.
If they want to have commercials and signs and pamphlets and their website say which party they are or who endorses them, that's cool.
Well, on the other side where you said something about people not knowing where the candidates stand. Although most people just either vote Republican or Democrat because its what they always do, most of the people voting probably know what candidate is for what party.
This is how it should be: last name - first name - party (if applicable)
That won't confuse or delude anyone... and if it does, well, that person really shouldn't be allowed to vote.
most people just either vote Republican or Democrat because its what they always do
do you think that's a good idea?
Don't try and twist what I say, I never said its a good thing, i said its what they usually do.
then how does putting the letter on the ballot help?
(PS - you can't have two opposing "most" people)
Am I missing something? Most people who are voting in this election are likely able to make this connection: Romney = Republican Obama = Democrat. People will always vote for parties just because they like the party, but taking the political party off the ballot won't do anything. People really aren't that informed, but they are informed enough to know who is who and which party is which.
I did not say you believe it is a good thing - I only asked.
If you think it is not a good thing, then wouldn't removing the party designation help alleviate that?
Please refer to this: Am I missing something? Most people who are voting in this election are likely able to make this connection: Romney = Republican Obama = Democrat. People will always vote for parties just because they like the party, but taking the political party off the ballot won't do anything. People really aren't that informed, but they are informed enough to know who is who and which party is which.
Can most people make the same connection for their local candidates?
No, because the average person doesn't even vote in local elections, they just pay attention to the primaries and presidential elections and sometimes pay attention to who is Governor of their state.
people who are voting in this election are likely able to make this connection: Romney = Republican Obama = Democrat
exactly - they have made that connection long before getting to the voting booth. If people know which candidate they want they either already know the party, or don't care - it serves no positive purpose to have it on the ballot.
taking the political party off the ballot won't do anything
exactly - they have made that connection long before getting to the voting booth. If people know which candidate they want they either already know the party, or don't care - it serves no positive purpose to have it on the ballot.
And what negative purpose does it serve? If you want to make the whole "what about people who don't know" argument, I can assure you people who are so out of touch with politics that they don't know who the republican or democrat candidate are will likely not be voting.
so you would at least be neutral then?
No, I'm for it. I don't see a reason to take it off... and saying "there's no reason to keep it on then" is not a valid argument.
I can assure you people who are so out of touch with politics that they don't know who the republican or democrat candidate are will likely not be voting
I'm afraid I might need a little more than your assurance on that one. I've met several people in my life who have admitted to voting a party line ticket - I would challenge you to support that or even just do your own research. If even a small number votes that way, and you have no countervailing reason that it is positive, then isn't that enough reason to remove it?
saying "there's no reason to keep it on then" is not a valid argument
it's actually a perfect argument for asking if you are neutral, and, as yet, you have given no reason why you support it.
I'm afraid I might need a little more than your assurance on that one. I've met several people in my life who have admitted to voting a party line ticket
a) I'll need a little more assurance on you meeting those people.
b) if you did meet those people, stop going near morons.
I would challenge you to support that or even just do your own research. If even a small number votes that way, and you have no countervailing reason that it is positive, then isn't that enough reason to remove it?
No, that is not enough to remove it. It should say their name AND their party.
it's actually a perfect argument for asking if you are neutral, and, as yet, you have given no reason why you support it.
You know how canidates end up on ballots? They are nominated, by parties. It would make common sense that if Gary Johnson was nominated by the Libertarian Party, that on the ballot it should say "Johnson, Gary - Libertarian Party"
The only necessary belief is that those morons exist - do you really think they don't?
If there are morons who show up to vote for the top of the ticket and blindly voted based on party for all the down-ticket races - diluting the vote of people who took time to know the issues and the candidates - is that not a bad thing?
that is not enough to remove it
You have still given zero reason for supporting it - why are you not neutral on the subject?
You know how canidates[sic] end up on ballots? They are nominated, by parties.
Actually that is not correct except for the Presidential race (assuming you live in America as I do) - they generally get a certain number of signatures on petitions depending on the scale of the office they are seeking. After that, most places conduct primaries for the candidates who qualified - most of those are done by party, though some have all candidates in the primary and the top two vote getters in the primary are placed on the ballot in the general, and some places have ranked-choice or instant runoff voting, etc.
The only necessary belief is that those morons exist - do you really think they don't?
If there are morons who show up to vote for the top of the ticket and blindly voted based on party for all the down-ticket races - diluting the vote of people who took time to know the issues and the candidates - is that not a bad thing?
If someone is dumb enough to vote like that, they would dumb enough to vote for the candidate who they thought had the better sounding name.
You have still given zero reason for supporting it - why are you not neutral on the subject?
Stop saying that I gave no reason for supporting this, try reading my whole argument.
Actually that is not correct except for the Presidential race (assuming you live in America as I do) - they generally get a certain number of signatures on petitions depending on the scale of the office they are seeking.
You realize that most morons don't eve know what you can vote on let alone know where to vote for state and local elections? This isn't the 1950's where we all go to the town square, vote on the sheriff and then celebrate by going to the grand country fair. Most of morons have no idea what is going on politically except every four years they remember they get to vote on who will be president.
they would dumb enough to vote for the candidate who they thought had the better sounding name
There are people who would do that today. Also it would be a smaller subset of morons who choose to vote by name and not every race would have a candidate with a "better sounding name" - thus diminishing the effect of morons in the election.
Stop saying that I gave no reason for supporting this, try reading my whole argument.
I think by looking at the posts, you can see that I have read and responded to every argument you have made. While you repeatedly have asserted that you believe the party designation should remain - you have yet to give any reason why it is beneficial.
You realize that most morons don't eve know what you can vote on let alone know where to vote for state and local elections?
During a Presidential election it is the same place. Also, many states (including mine) send poll information to every address (or every address with any registered voter.)
I think we can agree that there are varying degrees of morons. Do you think keeping at least a subset of those morons from diluting the vote of the informed is a good thing? If so, is there a greater benefit by keeping it on the ballot? (requires more than a yes or no answer)
There are people who would do that today. Also it would be a smaller subset of morons who choose to vote by name and not every race would have a candidate with a "better sounding name" - thus diminishing the effect of morons in the election.
Your not getting the point, if you get rid of the party on the ballot, the morons who vote solely on that will be dumb enough to vote on anything else thats stupid. Your not changing anything.
I think by looking at the posts, you can see that I have read and responded to every argument you have made. While you repeatedly have asserted that you believe the party designation should remain - you have yet to give any reason why it is beneficial.
Actually, by your posts, I can't tell because you only quote about 1/2 of what I write.
During a Presidential election it is the same place. Also, many states (including mine) send poll information to every address (or every address with any registered voter.)
Doesn't matter if its the same place, your talking about morons. Morons (incase you haven't noticed) are stupid, they don't pick up on things like this.
I think we can agree that there are varying degrees of morons. Do you think keeping at least a subset of those morons from diluting the vote of the informed is a good thing?
The amount of morons you think that have no idea who is running at all and just check whatever party they like is not as big as you think, and is certainly not big enough to make to a difference.
If so, is there a greater benefit by keeping it on the ballot? (requires more than a yes or no answer)
1. There is no real advantage of taking it off the ballot, those morons will still morons and they will still vote stupidly.
2. It makes sense to have the name and party of each candidate, so it shows the person and which political party they represent. There's not really that big of an advantage of having it on the ballot either, but than again, this is an extremely menial issue.
a) there is a 1:1 ratio of people who now think it is acceptable to vote by party who would vote by "better sounding" name if party was not available.
b) a few people who would otherwise vote for a given party will now vote based on name, but not the same quantity as that which votes by party line
?
you only quote about 1/2 of what I write
I don't need to include every word to respond - see how I did that?
Is there an actual argument that you have made besides - you think it should stay...?
they don't pick up on things like this
they don't have to "pick up on" anything - when they pick up their ballot, it has all of the races on it - have you ever voted?
certainly not big enough to make to a difference
There was a legislative district race close to me that was decide by 4 votes - many LD races are within a few dozen vote margins. The Presidential race in 2000 was decided by 537 votes - I know it sounds corny, but every vote counts (and should be treated that way by the entire election apparatus including the voter).
There is no real advantage of taking it off the ballot
Besides
lessening the influence of the major parties
helping third party candidates
lowering incumbency rates
and reducing (notice that I am not saying eliminating) the impact of the uninformed
it shows the person and which political party they represent
that is the whole point of the debate - if you don't even know what party that person is when you go to the polls, we shouldn't be telling you.
this is an extremely menial issue
Only your arguments have been menial - not the issue. Reforming democracy in a way that focuses on candidates and issues rather than parties is a worthwhile effort whether or not this is a good way to make progress in that direction.
To JustIgnoreMe's last reply in our debate: (And Andy, what's up with Google Chrome all the sudden? I can't "see all replies" or even open a reply in a debate line.)
I see your point about encouraging a more knowledgeable voter, however, I don't necessarily believe that the connection, that lack of listed party affiliation encourages interest or knowledge one way or another, is there. It's a good theory I think. I just don't think it would have the results you believe it would have.
This country already has far too low voter turn out, and far too much misinformation swirling around in their head when they enter that booth.
Making it harder to identify who, at least most likely, represents the opinions the voter has won't solve either of those problems. I believe the connection that this would encourage more research is incorrect. I believe overall it would encourage less voting, and more voting against one's own self interests through, as mentioned, misleading ads targeting specific neighborhoods.
If there were some way to set up a system where people can vote either online or the traditional way, which could somehow not be hacked, and instead of party affiliation you could have links to speeches, voting records, official declarations where each candidate stands on any issue they've posted, etc, and all of this information is represented so that each and every person receives the same information,
Then at some point every American over the age of 18 needs to get to a computer or a booth or mail in something that either is a vote for these various things or a declaration that they are exercising their right not to vote,
And you give them a month to do this in every state so that everyone at least has to see the info even if they don't want to vote,
then I'm for various ideas put in place which encourage more interest.
As it is, I only see this idea leading to less voting and more misinformed voting.
I disagree that we should remove the political party from the ballot.
Let's just remove the names instead.
It would save the government the cost of ink! Besides, it's the destination that our current method of electing leaders is taking us anyways. Let's just speed up the process and avoid the years of torture.