Should schools be allowed to expel lesbians?
Recently a California appeals court ruled that a Lutheran school did not violate an anti-discrimination law when they expelled two female students for having a bond "characteristic of a lesbian relationship"? The reason was that the school did not count as a business, and therefore the law did not apply to them.
Was this the right decision?
Is it okay to expel students for their sexual orientation?
Edit forgot to post the link:
Side Score: 34
Side Score: 65
well, aren't Lutheran schools Private Schools? if so, they can expel whoever the fuck they want. Free country.
but if it's a public school, then it's wrong. in fact, i find some of the rational laws in Public Schools to be bullshit already. (you know me, the less rules the better).
As a private school they can do whatever they want to expel anyone they want to. If it was not a private school then no, since they are not allowed to legally. So it depends on the school. The school you mentioned it is perfectly acceptable to expel who ever they want to. If it was a public school then no they should not be allowed and they are NOT allowed to.
Side: Either way depends on the school
They're expelled for engaging in lesbianism. It's an action. Being black is a skin color, something that can not be controlled. So it wouldn't be acceptable (in a way, technically, we should be living in a FREE country where the government doesn't determine what private institutions should allow).
Because the school was a private school, nothing can be really be done.
Does it make it right? Certainly not. If it was a public one it'd be completely different.
So yes, private schools should be allowed to expel anyone they want, even though it may not always be morally right. Public schools? Nope.
It was a private school. If a private school has students that do not obey the rules of the school (like homosexuality in a CHRISTIAN school), said school has every right to kick them out. It's a shame that it happened, but Christian schools don't really have to follow the law of public schools.
Ok, well we have made it clear that it was a private school, so they were infact allowed to expel them.
So was it the right choice?
Yes I believe it was. Now I don't know all the details but it is a church school so whatever the students were doing was probably against the rules and the rules should be respected.
Plus they were not expelled for who they are, they were expelled for what they chose to do.
I don't know for sure but I doubt they would be expelled for simply being gay, only for acting on it. Therefore the school would not be discriminatory.
Well actually the girls weren't doing anything in school. Check out the article, it gives the details.
To summarize though, on the girl's myspace pages under sexual orientation one put bisexual, and the other put not sure. In addition they had said to other students that they loved each other. So in fact they were never actually caught making out or having sex. Although that would make for a much better story ;)
"I don't know for sure but I doubt they would be expelled for simply being gay, only for acting on it. Therefore the school would not be discriminatory."
Regardless of whether it's legal for them to do so or not, that's still discriminatory. I guess discrimination is still okay in the US as long as it's done in the name of the invisible sky daddy.
A private program can exclude anyone it wants. No rights where violated. This is not a public school. They can still choose to go to any public school, or even a more liberal private school. So I wouldn't pair them up with others in history that suffered greatly for race do to discrimination. But I'm sure that's not what you where doing?
"invisible sky daddy"? That's stupid.
"Regardless of whether it's legal for them to do so or not, that's still discriminatory."
What do you suggest? We make it illegal to exclude certain people from private organizations!? Say I wanted to have an official private study group for people with freckles.[silly I know, it's just an example] Should I have the freedom to do so? What about those poor non freckled people that want to pay to join my group?
Your argument is a poor one.
Now we wouldn't, but put back the clock a good 50 years ago or more and we would be having the exact same discussion. Just replace lesbians with black/gay/asian/hispanic/etc....Just matters when in history. This is simply but the continuation of the civil rights movement. We have evolved, in a way, from color to now sexual orientation. It'll continue until everyone has been somewhat satisfied which will probably lead to us taking each other out or continuing on with our species as one autonomous entity.
The difference in the situations is that the girls were expelled for their ACTIONS. They engaged in a relationship while attending this school.
Being black is uncontrollable. It's a skin color, not an action.
I find it appalling that blacks are now compared with gays... actually, it's kind of racist.
But the Lutheran PRIVATE School has a right to let anyone in or kick anyone out if they do not meet the standards of their school. It's technically considered a private club, and in America, we consider that personal liberties.
I didn't really state my point clearly. What I meant was that sure, the school is allowed to do it. There are black-only schools, and female-only schools, and no one objects. But the only reason we consider this acceptable is that gay rights haven't progressed as much as minority rights.
Most experts agree that homosexuality is natural, not a choice. Gays appear in every part of every society of every culture on Earth. And if young people date and fuck, in spite of the many restrictions in the way, then it is safe to assume it's natural behavior. It is a choice, yes, but when instinct comes into the question, the line between choice and non-choice is blurred a bit.
Eg, Jean Valjean steals bread on a windowsill, because he's starving. Is it still a choice if he's nearly delirious from malnutrition? Is pursuing homosexual relationships fully a choice if you respond to pheromones of the same sex, and your brain is clouded by hormones and immaturity? Looking at all the teen pregnancies (I live in San Antonio, the capitol), it doesn't seem like kids are fully in charge of their ability to make a rational choice when it comes to sexual relations.
No, but that is the right of a religious school. In the law we give that right. They now have a choice to make. Go to another religious school or go public. Very cut and dry. People forget about why we live in this country. We live for rights and justice. If they don't believe it's right, which I don't think they do, then they can boycott the school or get others to follow suit. The gay, transgendered communities are growing in size and authority. The future will speak but I can see them becoming a huge lobbying power in congress.
I completely agree. I think the best step would not to be to lobby the government, but instead go to American Universities. Have the universities only accept students from non discriminatory schools. Then, parents won't want to send their children to schools that expel homosexual students, and the schools would be forced to change their policy.
Hgrey is right. If they had been expelled for being black, the courts would not have allowed it.
Discrimination is illegal, private or public. You cannot have a school, golf course, pizzaria, porn shop, or any other place and say certain people cannot attend based on sex, age, race, etc.
If you want a school where no lesbians are allowed, you'll just have to home school... and not be gay. End of story.
And beinglo's point really doesn't matter, that - well 50 years ago it would be a debate as to whether black kids could have been kicked out...
That we've made mistakes in the past doesn't give us a free pass to go through the whole thing again.
More, it makes it worse the second time around because people in general, and especially CA courts should know better.
The article makes it clear that they were not acting inappropriately at school.
It also makes it clear that this is another case of people not minding their own business.
No one on earth should know the sexual orientation of two underage girls in CA.
And it's shameful that now a bunch of people do.
The sad thing is, really they're probably too young to even really know what the hell they are yet, and will probably now grow up with all kinds of complexes.
The school, the parents, and the courts should be ashamed of themselves.
At some point some adult should have had the maturity to take a stand and say the obvious, "this whole thing is ridiculous, no one's getting expelled, and no one's going to court over this."
But no, we're a nation of scared and dumb little kids.
Jeez I hate people.
Here is my view on the subject:
The students in question are a lesbian couple going to a private Catholic school. The school, being a private Catholic school has every right to not allow them to attend mass on campus, however, so long as it is a government accredited college it must abide by the state law that prohibits discrimination against students due to such things. So unless the college wants to give up its accreditation then it should have no legal ability to commit such felonies and get away with it!
Dude, Martin Luther was really not Catholic.
However, I agree with your argument. It seems to me that if the school argued: these two girls are spreading views that go against the religious tenets of our institution, and produced some kinds of testimony that they'd been promoting the joys of lesbianism to the world, fair enough: they're disrupting the social climate that the Christian parents've chosen to raise their kids in. But saying they "exhibit a bond charactistic of a lesbian relationship" is no statement of crime. Private schools have the right to be more selective than state-funded ones, but expelling teenagers at a time when confused sexuality will be enough of a problem for them already? Shouldn't be within their rights.
I dont think schools, regardless of being private or public should be allowed to expel gays and lesbians. If two girls or two guys or doing public intimacy then i would agree to disciplining them just like they would displine a guy and a girl making out. The discipline would usuallly be a warning, then a detention and if it continues it should be suspension or such for such behavior. But i think if their expelling you just because they kno what you are, thats absurd. As long as you keep your sexual orientation at home and outside of school then there should not be a problem.
In my school gay is allowed so if they ban lesbians they would have to ban gays and that would be discrimination for gays and lesbians. Witch could not happen because in the terms of agreements there can be no discrimination in my school. And anyway if that happen do you know what some people would do to the school...
First of all, we must ask this question? Is being homosexual wrong? It isn't against the law or anything. I am not gay myself, but I know that love doesn't have to limit itself to a man and a woman. We live in a democratic and fair society. If it is to be truly fair, we mustn't discriminate people for who they like/love or who they share the bed with.
There are also numerous flaws in this case. For example, an excerpt from the article reads quote "The girls were expelled in their junior year for "conducting themselves in a manner consistent with being lesbians," said McKay, who added that the girls never disclosed their sexual orientation during the litigation. Hanson said the girls had been "best friends" and, citing their privacy, declined to discuss their sexual orientation. They are now in college, he said."
The school expels the girls because they behaved in a manner "consistent with being lesbians". The school failed to properly define a lesbian relation. They found a slight correlation with gay behavior and the behavior of the girls. This hardly constitutes as gay. The school obviously expelled the girls because they didn't want criticism from homophobic parents.
The girls say that they were "best friends". We all know what the youth of today are like today. When two people are best friends, it means that they go through the best and worst of times together. They are there for each other. How can we constitute this as gay? If two boys are mates, does it mean they are gay? No it clearly does not.
More flaws: This is another excerpt.
"The dispute started when a student at the school told a teacher in 2005 that one of the girls had said she loved the other. The student advised the teacher to look at the girls' MySpace pages. One of the girls was identified as bisexual on her MySpace page, the other's page said she was "not sure" of her sexual orientation.
McKay said the website also contained a photograph of the girls hugging."
One girls says she is bisexual. She is find of both genders and none specifically. Another is not sure. This means she is in a sort of dilemma. She is unsure of her relationship, for fear of discrimination. She is in a court proceeding that can stamp a dirty mark on her career. It s simply unfair. Finally, the girls are hugging. This is perfectly normal behavior in youths today. They could've been hugging because they were best friends and not necessarily gay.
This concludes my part.
So apparently the expulsion of these two young ladies was not violating a law because the school is not a business. Granted I agree that the school is not a business, one should not be expelled because they are gay, bisexual, or trans gendered. I understand that this is a private Lutheran school and respect the morals and beliefs of Lutherans. In fact if I'm not mistaken the Lutheran church welcomes LGBT persons into their church worship and if desired join the congregation. There is not a lot of detail given about this incident which means that these two students could have engaged in behavior that the school's policy deems inappropriate (for everyone). However because there is not a lot of detail into this situation my stance remains a resounding no. While even with some evidence that these young ladies were publicly displaying their affection (and I'm not saying it's wrong to display one's affection for their lover) my answer will still be no.
This topic happened to catch my eye because it was by far the most outlandish topic that i have seen today. Why expel gays? They are just like everyone else. If anyone has that big of a problem with them then they should move somwehere like Antarctica. We are the land of the "free", if i remember correctly. In the event that someone was kicked out of school for this then it would really show that we are more restricted than we ever knew.
I'm torn about this. Part of me says, it's a private school so they can do what they want. But the other part knows that it's unfair. I think they shouldn't expel them for their relationship itself, but if they want they can make rules about PDA and such. Even specific to lesbians/gays, because it is their right as a private school. It's not reasonable for them to tell students how to live their lives outside of school.
Side: Torn on this