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12
9
Yes No
Debate Score:21
Arguments:13
Total Votes:23
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 Yes (7)
 
 No (6)

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7yler(55) pic



Should we enslave the future to save the present?

We've decided to spend near or more than One Trillion Dollars to rescue our economy. The consequences of this are great and to a degree unknowable. What can be agreed is that we will be paying for it for many generations. Debt servitude is defacto enslavement, and enslavement is a matter of degrees. We are essentially enslaving our children to pay for our present.

Yes

Side Score: 12
VS.

No

Side Score: 9
2 points

And where was this debate during the bank bail out?

I'm always amazed at the subtelty with which media influences the thought process of everyone. And I have to admit the conservative media is much better at this than the liberal media.

Children paying for a bail out was on hardly anyones mind back in december. Also history had not yet been rewritten to say FDR somehow fueled the Great Depression with his social projects, when in fact the Great Depression was in full swing when he was elected, his projects helped alleviate the pain, and most scholars, including the guy with a Pulitzer in economics, Krugman, say the only problem was he didn't do enough fast enough.

Okay, so now we're curious whether we're damning our kids to Asian servitude (that's where we're borrowing most of the money that we're not just printing.)

Here's some stats to keep in mind. link)

We are literally the richest country overall in the world by trillions and trillions (and trillions) of dollars.

As much as we owe other countries, other countries owe us more.

You'll notice we are not the only ones in a financial crisis, when it rains here, it storms in most of the rest of the world.

That does not mean that we do not need to start being more responsible. Because at the current trajectory, it's just a matter of time before we are no longer the super power.

But investments in jobs, and ifrastructure, and incentives to create jobs, and fair trade agreements (not NAFTA, like the opposite of NAFTA,) and fair pay for workers, will pay off long long before the children are old enough to pay for anything but candy and toys.

What will not help the poor children are further tax cuts, that's just a panacea to make people feel better, offer a little relief, and get people elected to office on a populist platform.

Also what will not only not help the poor children, but will also potentially leave them with even more problems in the future,

Is falling for that bogus dogma that some companies are "too big to fail," even if that company totally sucks, even if they do nothing to change the practices that got the whole country into this mess, even if they continue giving their kings (CEOs) huge bonuses - that we have to for some reason bail them out.

We need to let these companies fail. We need to implement oversite. And we need to stop rewarding failure.

If people have jobs they have money.

If people have money, other people will want to lend them money.

If people want to lend people money, new companies will be started to lend these people money.

This will make more jobs.

This is a cycle.

The bank bail outs lead to 0 lending. Infact most banks began lending less after the bail out.

Let them die.

When the common man has money, the banks will follow on their own, no bail out necessary.

Side: yes
2 points

Lots of people feel like the bailout was a bad idea. But that's just because they don't understand economics. Here's the basic rational for the bailouts:

Sometimes, due to tribulations in the economy, people start to worry about losing their jobs. They start to save their money instead of spending it. Because people stop spending money, businesses can't sell products. Because businesses can't sell products they end up having to lay people off. This causes even more people to cut down on spending, causing more businesses to have trouble, etc... a downward spiral is formed.

How do we break this cycle? Well, if the people won't spend their money, the government does it instead. By injecting money, the government is able to keep the economy's gears turning. Once the economy gets moving again, people are willing to spend more, investors are more willing to invest in new companies, thus creating more jobs, and eventually we have a positive cycle instead of a negative one.

This is the fundamental insight of Keynesian economics. This is not just some wacky theory, but one of the cornerstones of mainstream economics.

Obama has stated that he wants to reduce the national debt. But before we can do that we need to turn the economy around. And that requires lots of financial stimulus.

Side: yes

The monetary system is going to fail anyways. It'll only last so long and what makes you think we're not enslaved currently?! I spend thousands of dollars a year putting money into medicare, etc and I'll never see it. Not to mention the countless other incredibly inefficient government programs that eat up tax payers money.

Side: yes
7yler(55) Disputed
1 point

The monetary system is not going to fail, the current method of efficiently allocating capital resources to most effectively generate profits may fail but to say the monetary system is going to fail is like saying the world is going to come to an end. It's an irrational argument since we both implicitly know it to be false. It was my grandfather who once told me, "the world isn't going to come to an end but it will change" While I may agree with you that many of our social programs are unworkable for anyone under 30 it's really a separate argument. Remember money is only a stand in for the production of a society, it merely replaces the physical exchanges of goods and services for work and indebtedness is nothing more than an additional takes on those things making the exchange more costly for all parties. It's both inflates the cost of things and depresses our discretionary assets.

Side: No
1 point

Let me start by letting you know that getting eloquent with your wording is not going to win me over. Let me also state that I am not an idiot and do not need a text book like definition or understanding of how a monetary system works. As far as what your grandfather told you, wise words but they don't apply to this conversation.

When I speak of the failing of the monetary system I speak in terms of the far future. The events that occur now are just little baby steps closer to that failure. In due time we will no longer need a monetary system. Again, you and I will be long gone when we reach that very predictable future.

What I'm getting at is, the introduction of the monetary system in any said society there have always been a group or groups that are enslaved by that system. And if you look at the trends from the beginning of history to our current debacle you'll see that the monetary system is a joke and only favors those who want to play by its rules (the great thing is the more of monetary value you have the more you get to invent your own rules). And its rules are run by those who control it. Those who control it do not want to lose it, only once they lose power will it cease to be.

Getting back to the point, the title of the debate is speaking of enslaving the future to save the present and what I'm saying is that you and I and most people are already slaves. Only once we break the shackles that the monetary system has put onto us are we free. Many of us need to take a step back and really see what the situation is. The current spending will be just that, spending. We along with other countries have been spending what we do not have and when you spend what you do not have you will, at some point, fail/ lose everything.

Side: yes

No, spending one trillion dollars while we're already neck deep in national debt, and creating an absolute Hell for future generations isn't right. We fucked it up, and, Haha as that hilarious guy on SNL Weekend Update says "We need to FIX IT!!"

Our future generations are the people that are going to cure cancer, get into space, discover how to talk to animals, things like that. If they're enslaved, or they're too busy fixing up our huge debts, they won't be able to do any of those things, and we won't advance properly, and our society and civilization will crumble.

I know one of my biggest arguments on this website has been the legalization of weed, but I'm afraid I need to come back to that point again. WE WILL MAKE SO MUCH MONEY IF WEED IS LEGAL!!! There's no question about it. Somebody, I forget who it was, said that the jails need inmates to maintain things around the 'campus'. Like there aren't enough people who are arrested anyway for DUI, rape, murder, and other drug use.

I think I've made my point. Despite how much I like Obama, I think signing that document in Denver today was not a good decision.

Side: No

No, if we enslave the future then those future generations will blame the enslaving generation and instead of improving their lot they'll have this sense of entitlement and write nasty debates about the enslaving generation ;)

Side: No

Exactly, Joe! And as if this generation who's running the country now (baby boomers except for Obama) doesn't have a bad enough rap already

Side: No

Well.... lets hope the younger generation learns from the older generation's mistakes and creates a brave new world.

Side: No