CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
The only reason animals naturally become omnivores is that so they can eat any or only one of the food types based on requirement, there are no animals need both meat and plants to survive. I would eat a fish if I had to, but in our current society there is no need to do so.
What you said simply shows how much you know about us, humans, and about animals. Next time, before saying anything, educate yourself first on the subject. You are very ignorant. I'm not even going to refute you, there's not much point, as I would only say things you should already know.
You are right, I do not know much about the evolution of dietary habits, and I should not have attempted to explain it, but there is a difference between not knowing, and ignorance
It is natural to eat meat, but I understand some people saying they don't like the way animals are treated. However, what really pisses me off is for example if I have a vegetarian come to our house for dinner, they will demand we give them vegetarian food. You go to their house however, and they won't serve you bacon or a steak e.t.c. No, they will say " Well, I thought it would be nice if you try some vegetables for a change." Goddammit I do eat vegetables too, you come to my house, you're a guest you eat what you want, but don't force your unhealthy dieting upon me. Just to say, if anyone has ever seen Come Dine With Me with a vegetarian in it, you will know what I am talking about!
(I was conforming to the stereotype, I know not everyone is like that so don't argue back "oh I am a vegetarian and I don't do that" because no one likes a whinger (Hence my many, many friends here ;P)
There are a few reasons I believe that vegetarianism is somewhat flawed. From the moral perspective, a lot of people go vegan because of the negative effect obviously imposed upon animals, or that they don't want their impact of eating the meat to lead to more animals to be killed, but there is no clear cut moral perspective to this, because naturally it would be unfair to say that all life matters to support the vegetarian argument, only to then turn around and eat a plant, which is also a living being who might be able to feel stimulation, even without the nerve system that other beings have, for all we know it could be excruciating pain that we inflict on every vegetable we consume. Along with that the demand for meat in our world is not going to go down for the majority of people, there is no change for that, a majority of humans do and will forever crave meat, as it is in our genetics to do so, due to the fact that in earlier sages of humanity while there was the option of consuming other foods, in prehistoric times there was no way obtaining a consistent diet of only fruits or vegetables due to the lack of agriculture therefore going vegetarian would not stop animals from being killed as there would still be a market to consume it, so your one act of cutting meat out of your life will likely not save a single animal, because meat will still be put on the shelves of stores in abundance and then a large portion of it will go to waste. As for the health side of things, while there is indeed a lot of health benefits that come with being vegetarian, these do not outweigh the cons that come with removing meat from the diet of a being that is made to consume meat. I think that we just need a healthy balance in our lives, and different portions of food dependent on your needs, which is why in some cases vegetarianism can be the right lifestyle for some people and their nutritional necessities, but as it stands for the majority, cutting meat out of your life entirely would only be a determent to your own health and would therefore be foolish.
It's not 'foolish,' it's a personal choice. I love steak, and because I question the integrity of an absolute morality; I cannot say that raising cows to kill and harvest their flesh for eating is at all bad.
I understand that girls can choose the healthy alternative vegetarianism, but for guys it wouldn't be a great idea. Proteins is mostly in all sorts of meat, which is essential for building and maintaining muscles. That's why I choose steaks, but I would love to date a girl that only ate veggies, as I would imagine that she would pretty fit.
Well, I am most definitely a meat lover. I wouldn't necessarily call Vegetarianism foolish though. However, I do not see the point in it. Like, I understand why they do it. But There is a food chain. We are at the top, it is NATURAL for us to eat animals. Humanity has been doing it for an EXTREMELY long time, ever since the beginning. Thats just how life works. It is not wrong to kill animals. Yes, I can understand why some people think that. I am an animal lover too. But you have to understand that this is just a natural part of life.
There is nor harm of any infection or disease by eating veg food whereas eating those flesh and other things can cause diseases spread now a days and every one of us are aware what they are. So be vegetarian.
Vegetarian diets are lower in fat, cholesterol and saturated fat. Both the American Heart Association and American Diabetic Association say vegetarian diets decrease the risk of heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, high blood pressure, obesity, kidney stress, certain types of cancer, and digestive problems. [1]
Vegetarians get enough protein
It's a very common myth that vegetarians don't get enough protein. Nearly every food has protein. "Protein intake in vegetarian diets is only slightly lower than in meat diets and can meet daily requirements for any person, including athletes and bodybuilders. Studies at Harvard University as well as other studies conducted in the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and various European countries, confirmed vegetarian diets provide sufficient protein intake as long as a variety of plant sources are available and consumed." [2]
Too much protein is harmful. "It's been estimated that the average person in this country eats two - six times more protein, usually from animals, than is needed for good nutrition. At it's most extreme, our protein fixation has led to the popularity of high-protein low-carb weight loss diets, condemned by doctors and nutritionists from coast to coast." [3]
A vegetarian diet is better for the environment
The United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization said one of the largest contributors to air polution, water polution, land degradation, climate change, and loss of biodiversity. The report said "the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global." [5]
Factory farms are unethical
Factory farms are just concentration camps for animals. WARNING!!! the following videos are very graphic and show just how horrific the treatment of animals is in factory farms.
A study by the University of British Columbia says "plant and animal protein sources appear to provide equivalent support to athletic training and performance." [4]
There are many athletes who are vegetarian or vegan.
-UFC fighter Mac Danzig
-Professional bodybuilder Robert Cheeke
-Professional triathlete and ultra marathon national champion Brendan Brazier
-Six-time Ironman winner Dave Scott
-Four-time Mr. Universe Bill Pearl
-World-record holder in bench press Stan Price.
-Ultramarathoner Scott Jurek
-Professional baseball player Prince Fielder
-Professional hockey player Michael Zigomanis
-Minnesota Twins pitcher Pat Neshek
-Atlanta Hawks Guard Salim Stoudamire
-Kansas City Chiefs tight-end Tony Gonzalez
-Tennis star Martina Navratilova
-Strength trainer Mike Mahler
-Multi-sport olympian Carl Lewis said his best year of track competition was the first year that he ate a vegan diet.
Everything you have stated is absolutely correct, but I'm still going to eat meat. I find it natural. However, I don't believe animals should be treated the way they are, I think we need to raise our meats the old fashioned way.
Vegetarian diets are lower in fat, cholesterol and saturated fat.
If and only if you eat only fresh possibly raw vegetables all the time. Eating processed foods will bring you right back to square one, further, how you prepare your vegetables will have a massive impact on how good for you they actually are, so you'll need to know a thing or two about cooking, over-cooked veg may fill you up, but they're nutritiously vacuous.
Add to that the fact that you'd need to be eating only organic vegetable produce in order to avoid any pesticide/herbicide residue and you've got only a narrow window of opportunity.
Also, due to the fragile nature of vegetable matter, they begin to loose their goodness the second they're picked, as they are cut off from the source. So they'd need to be eaten quickly (see later comment on environmental impact for further)
There's a lot of nutrients that are better sourced from meat and seafood, such as Iron and Omega 3 to name but two everyday essentials.
I also don't trust much American sources on fat consumption, given the American need to promote the growing of corn for that particular cash crop, a by-product of which is high fructose corn syrup, a much bigger cause of diabetes than any steak.
Vegetarians get enough protein
Vegetarian diets if they includes eggs and dairy produce can have a fair amount of protein, but these sources also contain a lot of dietary fat, not that fat is all that bad really, it's just the type and how much you consume that's the issue. There's also the question of intestinal upset, a diet high in legumes (one of the best sources of vegetable protein) can lead to some gassy consequences,
Too much protein is harmful
Too much of anything is harmful, you can find statistical data to show the same about carbs as you can about meat or any other thing.
A vegetarian diet is better for the environment
I don't see how exactly, I'm not stating that meat producing agriculture is better, but it most certainly is not worse.
The high production and introduction of nitrogenous fertilisers into the environment due to intensive vegetable and plant farming is having a massive impact on the environment wherever it is carried out. Soils are becoming acidified and land run off is causing dead zones in aquatic environments.
A population of vegetarians equal to or greater than omnivores would force the intensive farming of land, destroying wildlife habitats, and as this would be a "not in my backyard" kind of thing you'd be looking at (as is currently the case) shipping in a lot of vegetables and fruits from developing nations. Shipping itself at the moment causes more greenhouse gases than a lot of other industries combined. Add to that the fragile nature of the cargo and you'll have to ship a hell of a lot more than you need for just eating, to make sure that enough arrives on time and in sale worthy condition. These also have to be picked before ripening in order to ensure they aren't spoiled and they'd also have to be temperature controlled (more energy wasted).
Factory farms are unethical
Don't eat factory farmed meat.
Intensive vegetable agriculture is also unethical given the waste of land and the unfair price given to your average developing nation farmer, and the above mentioned aquatic dead zones and you have seriously unethical practice here too.
If we all went veg, what would happen to the existing livestock?
[Vegetarian diets are lower in fat and cholesterol] "if and only if you eat only fresh possibly raw vegetables all the time."
It's not an all or nothing deal. Even if you only did it 10 percent of the time, that's still a reduction in fat and cholesterol.
"How you prepare your vegetables will have a massive impact on how good for you they actually are"
It takes very little time to learn how to cook vegetables so that you get the most nutrition out of them. In fact, here is a super quick tutorial. Raw is best, baked is second best, steamed is 3rd, boiled is 4th, and leave the skins on when possible. Now that wasn't so difficult, was it? ;) Cooking meat degrades all the same vitamins as it does in vegetables.
You seem to be nitpicking trying to find any little thing to make a vegetarian diet look bad. Most of the arguments you presented apply to omnivores just as much as they do to vegetarians. What we really should be focusing on is the big question; What can people get from meat that vegetarians can't get from other foods. Below is a list of the vitamins and nutrients that are in meat. Under each one I've included a list of common foods that vegetarians can eat to get those vitamins. There are many other foods that could be listed, but I wanted to keep the post a reasonable size so I just listed ones that people commonly eat. Also keep in mind that people who are too lazy to eat a balanced diet can simply take a multi-vitamin or other supplement to get anything they are lacking.
Vitamin A
Just a single raw carrot contains over 300% of your daily vitamin A needs. A medium-sized baked sweet potato has over 400%. Other foods include breads, cereals, dried apricots, mangos, many dried herbs, cantaloupe, and numerous vegetables. Lacto-ovo vegetarians can get it from dairy products.
Vitamin B-1 (AKA Thiamin)
Beans, nuts, cereals, and many soy foods like veggie burgers, veggie meatballs, meatless bacon and other similar products.
Vitamin B-2 (AKA Riboflavin)
Breads, serials, soybeans, nuts, pretzels, english muffins, numerous vegetables, and dairy products if you are a lacto-ovo vegetarian.
Vitamin B-6*
Breads, cereals, nuts, seeds, beans, legumes, and numerous vegetables.
Vitamin B-12
Many cereals, energy bars, and vegetarian foods are fortified with B-12. Lacto-ovo vegetarians can get B-12 from dairy products.
Folate
Breads, flours, pastas, cornmeal, beans, nuts, legumes, white rice, and numerous fruits, vegetables. Many breakfast cereals have 100% of the RDA of folic acid in each serving.
Vitamin K
All the highest sources of vitamin K are vegetables. Meat has very low amounts of vitamin K.
Niacin
Breads, cereals, pasta, rice, nuts, and most fruits and vegetables. Lacto-ovo vegetarians can get it from dairy products.
Iron
Breads, cereals, some dried fruits, beans, lentils, dark leafy greens, and many fruits and vegetables.
Zinc
Nuts, seeds, beans, chocolate, oats, yogurt, brown rice, mushrooms, dried apricots, and many vegetables.
Omega-3
Breads, cereals, oats, flour, pasta, nuts, soy, dairy, eggs, many vegetables, and many types of oils.
Protein
Breads, cereals, oats, beans, nuts, seeds, flour, pasta, nuts, soy, dairy, eggs, white rice, many vegetables, and some fruits.
"We need only 2.5 to 11% of our calories from protein. It's nearly impossible to fail to get enough protein." This website has detailed info on protein and includes sources to all the studies they used http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/protein.html
"Add to that the fact that you'd need to be eating only organic vegetable produce in order to avoid any pesticide/herbicide residue"
This problem is not unique to vegetarians, omnivores face the same problem because they eat vegetables too. I haven't done any research on the effects of pesticide/herbicide residue, so I don't know if it's even something to be concerned about. If it was a real problem I would think the FDA or EPA would say something. If you know of any reputable studies that indicate it's a problem I'll check them out.
"Also, due to the fragile nature of vegetable matter, they begin to loose their goodness the second they're picked, as they are cut off from the source."
The same applies to meat, plus omnivores eat vegetables too so that argument applies to them too.
"There's a lot of nutrients that are better sourced from meat and seafood, such as Iron and Omega 3 to name but two everyday essentials."
There's a lot of nutrients that are better sourced from fruit and vegetables. Just because there is a better source, doesn't mean it's the only source.
"I also don't trust much American sources on fat consumption..."
I agree, but the reason I pointed it out is because "It's been estimated that the average person in this country eats two - six times more protein, usually from animals, than is needed for good nutrition." So, clearly they are getting too much.
"I don't see how exactly, I'm not stating that meat producing agriculture is better, but it most certainly is not worse."
That report has all the details.
Consider this. One cow will feed approximately 533 people one meal. Beef cows are usually slaughtered when they are somewhere between 3 to 5 years old. Cattle eat 20 to 30 lbs. of food a day.
So if we take the lowest of those figures, a single cow will eat 21900 lbs of food in its life. If we take look at the higher figures the cow will have eaten 57750 lbs of food. That averages out to 39825 lbs. A cow has about 400 lbs of usable meat. That means it takes 39825 pounds of food to produce just 400 pounds of food, which will only feed 533 people one meal. Just think of how many people could have been fed with 39825 pounds of food if those farms were used to produce crops for people.
At least 50% of our crops are used to feed livestock. Remember that just one cow eats 39825 lbs of food in its lifetime. That's a lot of farmland just for one animal. So think about all those environmental concerns you mentioned about growing crops, and then consider how much of that is from growing crops to feed the animals. Keep in mind that we haven't even touched on how much food it takes to raise other animals like pigs, chicken, sheep, turkeys, etc.
"In a 2009 Californian study comparing the environmental effects of vegetarian versus non-vegetarian diets, the researchers sought to answer this question and elaborate upon it by asking, “Does animal consumption create a heavier footprint than a vegetarian diet?” and “If so, what are some of the major environmental effects of an animal-based diet, and how might these be measured?” They found that a non-vegetarian diet consumed 2.9 times more water, 2.5 times more primary energy, 13 times more fertilizer, and 1.4 times more pesticide than a vegetarian diet. These statistics suggest that vegetarian diets are, in fact, less taxing on the environment. These researchers support the notion that increased environmental degradation is a byproduct of increased agricultural output. Modern agriculture has prioritized optimum crop yields and animal farming to the detriment of the environment via increased energy output, use of natural resources, and generation of waste. An Italian study presented in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition that specifically evaluated the environmental impact of omnivorous and vegetarian/vegan diets based on both non-organic and organic products as six separate dietary patterns in addition to a “normal” or average Italian diet produced similar results. Again, the researchers concluded that meat-based diets strain the environment the most and found that water consumption, in particular, plays the most significant role by accounting for 41-46% of the overall impact."
"Intensive vegetable agriculture is also unethical given the waste of land and the unfair price given to your average developing nation farmer, and the above mentioned aquatic dead zones and you have seriously unethical practice here too."
Unfortunately, there is no perfect system for food production, but the research clearly shows that the damage done by raising animals for food is much worse than growing plants.
"If we all went veg, what would happen to the existing livestock?"
It's not like everyone is suddenly going to go vegetarian leaving us with millions of homeless animals. It would be slow process and most the animals will probably be eaten. The rest would be set free to roam the countryside. I'm not sure what the ideal solution would be, but I think almost anything would be better than the miserable life they have now.
"Omnivorous Athletes: Just about everyone else"
You missed the point. I listed those people to show that it is possible to be a vegetarian and be healthy.
Conclusion
I'm not saying everyone on the planet should become a vegetarian, although I would be happy if they did. Remember, the topic of this debate is "Is Vegetarianism foolish?" I think I've provided sufficient evidence to show that it is not foolish. It may not be for everyone, but it is certainly not foolish.
It's not an all or nothing deal. Even if you only did it 10 percent of the time, that's still a reduction in fat and cholesterol.
Not really a vegetarian diet then, also if you consume oily fish such as Salmon, Mackerel Trout etc you could lower your cholesterol level, not increase it.
It takes very little time to learn how to cook vegetables so that you get the most nutrition out of them
I beg to differ, I was a Chef for eleven years, and I've seen how most people cook their vegetables, and it isn't very well.
Anywho, cooking increases bio-availability, and we are the way we are(i.e. high encephalization quotient), as some believe because of the practice of cooking, due to the human brains exclusive utilization of glucose, the monomer best released via processing.
Now that wasn't so difficult, was it?
What you have done, is typed out a list, I will assume that, that wasn't too taxing on you.
Cooking meat degrades all the same vitamins as it does in vegetables.
Meat, retains more than vegetables, but should not be used as a primary energy or strict vitamin source, but is necessary for B12.
You seem to be nitpicking trying to find any little thing to make a vegetarian diet look bad
No, I am highlighting issues, that are relevant to your average Joe.
Most of the arguments you presented apply to omnivores just as much as they do to vegetarians.
They apply more to those that exclude meat and fish altogether.
What we really should be focusing on is the big question; What can people get from meat that vegetarians can't get from other foods
No, that is what you are focusing on, if we were to correctly follow the debate, you'd have to strictly stick to salad, but the inference is clearly visible.
[Below is a list of the vitamins and nutrients that are in meat.] Also keep in mind that people who are too lazy to eat a balanced diet can simply take a multi-vitamin or other supplement to get anything they are lacking.
Vitamins aren't everything, although essential, high vitamin consumption can be dangerous i.e. hypervitaminosis which occurs through high consumption of fat-soluble vitamins (bear that in mind when you mention 300 and 400% intake of Vitamin A and how much Vitamin K you are getting).
We need only 2.5 to 11% of our calories from protein
We only use protein as a caloric source if we aren't consuming enough carbs, animal based proteins, including Milk and Eggs, mirror our Amino acid profile quite closely, hence bodybuilders' use of both these proteins that are needed to build the myriad proteins we need.
I haven't done any research on the effects of pesticide/herbicide residue, so I don't know if it's even something to be concerned about
One does not need to go very far to find the effects of benzene and other organic compounds.
If it was a real problem I would think the FDA or EPA would say something.
"vegetarians and fish eaters had intermediate and similar values"
The above line tells us that being exclusively vegetarian makes no difference.
There is a positive correlation between those that are Vegetarian, and those that actually take care of their health, via many other roots, such as water consumption, reduced reliance on medicines such as antibiotics and anti-depressants, and lack of a sedentary life-style, and zero/little reliance on processed food stuffs, although your study did take into account smoking and BMI (a poor estimation of anything), it did not take into account alcohol or other drug consumption.
Simply put, and I think you'll agree with me here, it's not really a Carnivore Vs Herbivore question when it comes down to health, if a particular person is watching their diet, exercising regularly, and not stuffing all manner of reactive molecules into their system, then whether or not their diet contains animals is irrelevant.
I agree, but the reason I pointed it out is because "It's been estimated that the average person in this country eats two - six times more protein, usually from animals, than is needed for good nutrition." So, clearly they are getting too much.
True, but that is also irrelevant, people's choices are their own, if you eat too much then that's just tough.
...Just think of how many people could have been fed with 39825 pounds of food if those farms were used to produce crops for people.
Herein is the dilemma, the food that ruminants should be eating is grass/hay depending on season, this is nutritiously unusable by non-ruminant animals, it is also an abundant carbon source, requiring very little in the way of human intervention, (spread some silage etc) cows convert the usable energy and proteins in the grass into meat and milk and other things such as leather, and biomolecules used in research and assay analysis. These are unavailable to us in the grass, but readily available in the cow via the beautiful food web that we've engineered for ourselves.
At least 50% of our crops are used to feed livestock. Remember that just one cow eats 39825 lbs of food in its lifetime. That's a lot of farmland just for one animal
Also cows are not picky consumers, humans are, vegetable growers frequently reject specimens that do not fit what the consuming masses consider to be the prototype.
Foods are grown based on class, class A and B foods are usually sent for direct consumption and processing respectively, anything else is used on livestock and for industrial processes.
They found that a non-vegetarian diet consumed 2.9 times more water, 2.5 times more primary energy, 13 times more fertilizer, and 1.4 times more pesticide than a vegetarian diet.
That is non-vegetarian, not exclusively carnivorous, that is the difference. Are we taking into account dairy and egg consumption as well? Both of these carry their own carbon footprint (and massive degree of animal suffering) but are consumed by vegetarians, but not vegans are they considered to be part of it as well?
Vegetarians are a minority population, whose needs are minimal in comparison to the rest of us, this is why their needs have less environmental impact.
Producing the amount of calories needed from vegetable sources alone would increase their carbon footprint massively, as I've pointed out before.
Think about it this way, if you need that much vegetable and fruit matter, then you are going to need to import it, this will give big vegetable companies more power, those that are responsible for importing will become powerful because they can far undercut domestic industries (leading to the collapse of such), this will lead to far more dubious practices than are currently being employed.
The vegetable processing industry will then become bigger as well, leading to more energy use, from canning and freezing and producing ready to eat products as well as others and the storage and transport of these.
When it comes to environmental impact, vegetarianism is not a better alternative as long as it stays a minority practice.
Unfortunately, there is no perfect system for food production, but the research clearly shows that the damage done by raising animals for food is much worse than growing plants.
No, there is no perfect system, with this I agree. The research can not predict the future though and as I've pointed out it would be just the same if there was a higher reliance on vegetables.
You missed the point. I listed those people to show that it is possible to be a vegetarian and be healthy.
I totally agree that it's possible to be a vegetarian and healthy, but it does take a lot more planning and work on an individual level, for no real extra benefit.
Remember, the topic of this debate is "Is Vegetarianism foolish?" I think I've provided sufficient evidence to show that it is not foolish. It may not be for everyone, but it is certainly not foolish.
I do agree, but the debate has two clear cut sides which are designed to pin Vegetarians against the Omnivorious, and your line of reasoning was that it was not foolish because it was healthier/better for the evironment e.t.c. I was merely highlighting that it wasn't as clear cut as you seem to believe it to be.
As you have concluded, so will I
I don't believe that vegetarianism is foolish per se, you used to be able to tag your arguments differently so as to display your stance but we lost that function.
There is a lot of sense to looking after your health, and as I've stated above a lot of vegetarians do, but to think that eating meat is that bad is foolish in itself.
The production of cheap meat is a despicable practice, and comes with it a heavy price tag via resources and environmental impact, it is more the choice of source rather than the eating of meat itself that is unethical. Relatively cheap vegetables and fruits can be grown domestically, but meat is not so cheap, this is mostly due to demand, were the demand to shift in the other direction, I'm sure that we'd have the same issue with vegetables.
If everyone stopped smoking, drinking, taking drugs, getting stressed, and consuming fast foods and actually took up regular exercise then you'd have a far more interesting bunch of data with which argue this stuff.
We could probably go back and forth on the details for days, but in the interest in saving us both some time I think one of the things you said makes a perfect conclusion to this debate:
"It's not really a Carnivore Vs Herbivore question when it comes down to health, if a particular person is watching their diet, exercising regularly, and not stuffing all manner of reactive molecules into their system, then whether or not their diet contains animals is irrelevant."
Well said. Thanks for taking the time to actually put some effort into your arguments and keeping things friendly. Very few people on this site actually take time to research the subject they are debating and almost never back up their arguments with sources. It's nice to finally debate someone who spends more than 30 seconds formulating their arguments. Kudos to you. I look forward to future debates with you.
We could probably go back and forth on the details for days.
Indeed, I have enjoyed it though, made me think, and that's always good.
The thing about debating on here is that there are a lot of no-thought arguments, but there are some pretty insightful people on here too, I like the informal style and the fact that I can take the piss out of people as well as engage in formal discourse.
But as you've said about me, the same applies to you, I like your style, the writing is good, easily read (which to me means that you actually understand your subject, rather than your usual wiki-based armchair know-it-all that the internet can spew up.) So I too look forward to future encounters.
But still, isn't it kinda foolish not to eat meat just for health? I get it if you don't like the taste, or if you can't for X reason(x being anything.)
I personally don't eat meat because of ethical reasons. The health benefits are just a plus. I just can't see any justification for treating animals so poorly when there is plenty of other healthier stuff to eat that doesn't require killing something that feels pain and emotion. Just because something is less intelligent than us doesn't mean it's okay to treat it inhumanely. If low intelligence is what determines what we can kill, then I think there are quite a few people on this website who should be fearing for their lives right now :)
See, I'm a believer of the, "you only live once, so why bother with watching what you eat?". I understand to the fact that you don't for ethical reasons, I completly respect that.
But, it's the Id in us that is talking. Simple as that. We've eaten meat since the dawn of time, since Lucy's time. Why stop, just because we believe it's 'wrong'?
PS: For those that don't know- the Id represents the most primitive aspect to us humans.
It is foolish, downright stupid, if to ask me. Not eating meat is unhealthy. If a person wants to live a life as healthy as possible then meat is necessary.
Not eating meat is unhealthy; eating meat is healthy.
Studies on the subject shows that is not true. In fact, they show that a vegetarian diet is healthier, as I showed in my original post. Do you know of some reputable studies that say otherwise?
This is irrefutable, as we are omnivores not herbivores.
Just because we are able to eat both meat and vegetables doesn't mean not eating meat is unhealthy, and the studies clearly support this.
You take all kinds of crap as true? What part of "we are omnivores" aren't you getting? Do you know what our teeth are like? For ripping flesh and and also grinding plants. If eating meat was not healthy our teeth would not be adapted to eating meat. If our teeth are adapted to it then that means humans have been meat eaters for a very long time, that means eating meat has become part of humanity, which means it is essential to eat meat to stay as healthy as possible.
In fact, they show that a vegetarian diet is healthier, as I showed in my original post.
Answer this question. Are we herbivores? Yes or no?
Reality is that I don't even have to check that "show" to claim with 100% certainty that it is nonsense. Eating meat is healthy, and how much is needed depends how active your life physically is.
Do you know of some reputable studies that say otherwise?
Do you know any reputable, and unbiased, studies that explain why we are herbivores? Oh, wait... we are omnivores. And have been for tens of thousands of years, probably hundreds of thousands. We have evolved to eating meat and plants, we need both.
Just because we are able to eat both meat and vegetables doesn't mean not eating meat is unhealthy, and the studies clearly support this.
Biased studies in that case.
Not that we are just able to eat them, our teeth have evolved to support the eating of meat and plants as well. It has nothing to do with what we can do, it has everything to do with who we are. And we are omnivores, I repeat, omnivores!
We are able to kill ourselves too... why not do that 'cause, in parallel, it is also unhealthy, as is not eating meat. We can choose to eat our own shit too, why don't we do that? Because it it is too unhealthy, and just disgusting.
Why not stop eating at all? I mean, if you deny one part that is there because of evolution, and you claim it is healthy to do so, healthy to deny that part, perhaps it would be even healthier to deny eating completely? No animals are killed in the process, and the same goes about plants - everyone living in perfect harmony, no one's killing anyone. But wait, that would be suicidal to us.
Simply calling anything that disagrees with you crap does nothing for your case. If you think it's all crap, then point out the flaws in the studies.
What part of "we are omnivores" aren't you getting?
I get it loud and clear, but you don't seem to be getting my point. Being an omnivore just means we are able to eat both plants and meat. Just because we are able to, doesn't mean we have to. As I've said, the studies clearly show that you can be perfectly healthy on a vegetarian diet, but since you seem to think any scientific research that disagrees with you is "crap", then what's the point in debating. If all evidence is "crap" then it's just my word against yours, which gets us nowhere.
One of the reasons we don't need meat anymore is because we don't expend tons of energy hunting food like we did when we were cavemen. Back then people spent most of their time hunting and gathering food, expending tons of energy. Now we just take one trip to the grocery store and we have all the food we need for weeks. Now we sit on our asses debating on computers and expend very little energy. Our dietary requirements that resulted in us evolving into omnivores are very different that the ones we have today.
Reality is that I don't even have to check that "show" to claim with 100% certainty that it is nonsense.
You misread my statement. I wasn't talking about a "show", I was saying the studies show a vegetarian diet is healthier.
The fact that you would even say something like shows you have absolutely no interest in actually examining any evidence. You just want to blindly assert things and dismiss anything that disagrees with you without even looking at it.
Eating meat is healthy, and how much is needed depends how active your life physically is.
It is healthy in moderation. The problem is most people eat too much of it. Remember this quote from my original argument, "It's been estimated that the average person in this country eats two - six times more protein, usually from animals, than is needed for good nutrition."
Meat can be part of a healthy diet. I never said it couldn't. All I'm saying is that eating a vegetarian diet is healthier, and the research agrees. Even if it wasn't healthier and was just equally as healthier, I still think it would be a better alternative because of ethical reasons.
We have evolved to eating meat and plants, we need both.
Show me the research that shows we need both. I've already presented research that shows we don't. Just because we needed both in the past does not mean we still need both. Evolution doesn't stop. Our dietary requirements will continue to evolve.
Biased studies in that case.
Show me how their biased? You seem to be really good at dismissing anything that disagrees with you without actually backing up your claims or providing any evidence of your own.
This whole conversation can be summed up in 2 sentences. I say "Here's what I think, and here is the research to back it up." Then, you say, "nu uh, that's crap, we're omnivores". If you can't explain the flaws in the research I've presented, or at the very least show me some research that backs up your assertion that not eating meat is "unhealthy", "foolish", and "downright stupid" then this debate is pointless.
If it is so unhealthy, then how do you explain all those vegetarian/vegan athletes I listed. Do you think a six-time Ironman winner is unhealthy. How about the UFC fighter, the four-time Mr. Universe, or the triathlete and ultra marathon national champion? Are all those people unhealthy? Most of them are vegans, which is an even more limited diet than vegetarians.
I was not talking about pesticides bad for the environment, but for you. That may have been a fail at my part, I was replying to the "A vegetarian diet has more fiber and less of the harmful substances present in non-vegetarian diets." part.
I've been a vegetarian for 18 years and haven't had any major health problems. I'm able to survive and stay healthy without killing animals that feel pain and fear, so I don't see how that could be considered foolish.
Veg vs Meat
