CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
You can share this debate in three different ways:
#1
#2
#3
Paste this URL into an email or IM:
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
Tally: As many religious wars versus secular wars. Who killed more?
At least one sentence needs to be used to clarify why the specific war was considered religious or secular. Controversy on certain instances can be used on both sides, for example World War 2 can be considered as secular or religious, dependent on the individual. The number of people killed should be listed, the timeframe of the war, and the total tallied. All wars that one can remember should be taken into account. It is imperative that one must not use a ruler being religious or non religious as motive to start the war. Instead the motive to be considered should be the goals of the war Expanding of land or battling for resources can be considered secular, even if the individual soldiers were motivated by religion. This is because the motivation of a soldier has nothing to do with the beginning of the war. For example, Roman men had to fight wars as a part of civic duty and were taken from all classes, whether they wanted to fight or not, or whether they were religious or not. They would have been on the battlefield, which means the war would have started. The point is do not say, "Because this person is a Christian or Jew it is a religious war."
You are the most unreligious person on this site. Why are you contradicting my statement that religion causes wars? All Qaeda is religious. Hezbullah is religious. The Arab-Israeli war? That was over religion. Crusades? Religion. Ann Coulter said that we should "kill their leaders, bomb them, and convert them to Christianity. Religious? You betcha. George Bush and other religious conservatives sited a believe in "God" at the time of going to war with Afghanistan, and Iraq, and now we have learned nothing about our first mistake with Al Qaeda?
PLease read beside you.-------------------------------------------------> And furthermore many recent civil wars that don't get much hype is not religious. Al Qaeda which gets a lot of hype was started for political gain and got out of hand. I m going to research on the others. But a format on how this should be done is on your right, over there-------------------------------------------->
This is really lazy, I just posted a majority of wars that was not religious from a little research. Don't let 21st century Dogma get to you, most wars were not relgious.
Again, facts are over there.---------------------------------- >
I am not saying wars never started over religion, just more started for secular reasons. You just through some random stuff out, not even stating why the war was started. You need to acknowledge the format, which betters the debate. It is also about who killed more, not who had more.
You must be joking, you never provided one link when you went off tangent and started arguing about Al Qaeda and Arab Israeli, I scoured all over the globe for them and my extensive research is not done.
I never knew about 2 out of three of the things you mentioned, again you must be joking. As far as I am concerned, most of that stuff I posted is so common that you could literally google the name and click on the first link.
No, you must be joking because you demand links and assume people know about your wars. That is just an uncanny double standard. I have no problem with you disagreeing but you should put up your argument in the format you expect from others.
If religion has fueled wars, it has been primarily as a tool to get the masses to fight; exploiting a deeply ingrained belief system that permeates most of the lower class. The wars were almost all started over secular things.
No. Most wars are fought for secular reasons. Religion has historically been used as a tool to encourage the masses to fight. There are other ways to do this, but none as easy as capitalizing on a pre-existing belief system that permeates most of the lower class.
No wars did. World War II was the war that caused the most deaths ever. World War I was really bad, but it wasn't as horrible. World War II caused more deaths than all religious wars combined, based on my statistics.
This really boils down to "How many we're killed in wars born of ignorance and delusion?" vs. "How many we're killed in wars born of other shitty things?"
You are on the wrong side though. You are basically arguing that religion has killed more people when you place an argument on this side, what is your proof for said notion?
"How many we're killed in wars born of ignorance and delusion?" vs. "How many we're killed in wars born of other shitty things?"
I think you meant to say were, not 'we're' but I could be wrong. Anywho, any opinion can start a war, and people have started wars over women before. Heck, I could start a war dictating the glass is always half empty and never half full. So let us just drop everything under one umbrella and call it ignorance and bigotry on a whole.
The fact remains religiosity breeds war.
Every opinion breeds war so it is better to say opinions breed war.
WW2 was religious, had religious leader in the front, Vat an was backing it. It included genocide of jews... pretty much all soldier were religious in all wars...
WW2 was religious, had religious leader in the front, Vat an was backing it.
Yeah, and you had members of the Catholic church protesting against it. Either way it had nothing to do with religion.
It included genocide of jews
Hitler killed them because of their race, not because of their religion.
pretty much all soldier were religious in all wars
So no atheist is in the US army, not even one, are you sure about that? And who gives a shit if they were religious, some of them didn't even want to fight!!! You are acting like they signed up for it.
The World Wars were not religious wars. World War I began when Serbians assassinated the archduke of Austria-Hungary, Franz Ferdinand. Austria-Hungary allied with Germany, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire, creating the "Central" side of the conflict, and Serbia allied with Britain, France, and Russia, creating the "Allied" side of the conflict. Nothing else to it. World War I was ended by the Treaty of Versailles, when the "Allies" won. The "Allies" made harsh punishments for the "Central" powers. This was what caused World War II. The punishments were too harsh and Nazi Germany eventually started another war. They annexed Czechoslovakia and Austria, then invading Poland, signaling the beginning of World War II. Sure, Adolf Hitler was a corrupt leader and ordering everyone to send Jews to concentration camps and whatnot. But the actual wars did not begin because of religion.
You are all missing a very important detail. That there is a big difference between Willing to do and Being capable of doing so.
for example:
I am quite sure that most of Islamists would have problems with nuking whole USA and or Europe. Killing all nonMuslims, killing billions but they are not capable of doing so, they are backward primitives with sticks and rocks but does that makes their "religiosity" more peaceful than secular societies?
Okay, lets play. How many wars have American's fought because they were willing and capable? Must be a lot. How many did they kill? A lot. So the secular community of America is just as bad as your silly example.
Most people in the US army are conservative christians, bushs war on terror was "inspired by his faith" , billions of US dollars are given to the nation of Israel every year because the population is convinced that if jesus comes back that he will be displeased if the Jews aren't in control of the holy land, even in secular conflicts there is always a religious based motivation.
There have obviously been many wars that WERE secular but were talking about wars fought FOR secularity vs wars fought FOR religion. I honestly dont think there has ever been a war where secularity was a cause or goal. Maybe a factor in some cases but i dont even know about that. On the other hand religion has definately been a cause, factor, driving force, purpose, ect ect ect for a plethera of wars back as far as it has existed and continues today.
Maybe in minute detail, however wars are caused by people. Nothing more, nothing less. Humans have their differences. It's in our nature and it's how we work mentally. Our opinions decide our actions, and differing opinions will conflict and if serious enough start violent outbreak.
Denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis
That is the meaning of secular. So a lot of wars have been fought over secularism.
There have obviously been many wars that WERE secular but were talking about wars fought FOR secularity vs wars fought FOR religion.
No no no, this is not if they were fighting or secularism, this is to consider if it was secular or religious.
On the other hand religion has definately been a cause, factor, driving force, purpose, ect ect ect for a plethera of wars back as far as it has existed and continues today.
Denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis
That is the meaning of secular. So a lot of wars have been fought over secularism.
I dont know what is meant by "denoting attitudes" but that definition is decent i suppose.
Merriam-Webster dictionary defines secular as:
1a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal b : not overtly or specifically religious c : not ecclesiastical or clerical
2: not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation
A better definition ive heard is simply put: being indifferent to religion or having nothing to do with or any opinions on religion.
That means no negative opinions either.
No no no, this is not if they were fighting or secularism, this is to consider if it was secular or religious.
Well then no shit most wars are secular. Just as most music, books, TV shows, and daily activities are secular. 99% of anything a given person does in their lifetime is secular. So i dont see what point this debate makes.
My long list shows that is not true.
No it doesnt. it is a list of wars that were secular, not that secularism was a driving force, cause, factor, or purpose. When i brush my teeth that is a secular activity, that doesnt mean im doing it because of secularism or to be secular and i dont even think of secularism when im doing it. Religion on the other hand actually fuels conflicts and IS a factor, cause, driving force, purpose, ect for many wars. There is a key difference. There has never been a war fought for secularism unless you wanna count the American Revolution but secularism was only a very small piece of that. MANY wars and conflicts in history were religiously motivated:
Crusades 1-5
The Inquisition
The thirty years war
The French Wars of Religion
The Salem Witch Trials (and all witch trials in general)
The Nigerian Civil War
Second Sudanese Civil War
The Lebanese Civil War
And an array of many random muslim and christian conquests all over the place.
And i guess ill throw in WW2 because Hitler used religion to rally troops and tried to anhiallate the jewish people AND faith
So the lack of religion promotes secular war? I mean, people have been alive for thousands of years with religion so why aren't 99% of the wars motivated by religion?
No it doesnt. it is a list of wars that were secular, not that secularism was a driving force, cause, factor, or purpose
Wasn't the point of the debate. The point of the debate is to find whether the lack of religion is bad for society. Apparently it is not.
When i brush my teeth that is a secular activity, that doesnt mean im doing it because of secularism or to be secular and i dont even think of secularism when im doing it. Religion on the other hand actually fuels conflicts and IS a factor, cause, driving force, purpose, ect for many wars.
Secularism (the lack of religion based on your definition) seems to start many wars. Secularism
Religion has stopped a plethora of wars (how you put it)
Pontiffs brought peace and settled disputes between warring factions. Pope Celestine II (1143-1144) successfully attempted and stopped the war between Scotland and England. Pope Martin IV (1281-1285) strove to unite in the bonds of charity the kings and lords of the time. Pope Innocent VIII (1484-1492) assiduously attempted at bringing peace between Catholic states and did his utmost to repress the slave traffic, also assisting Columbus in his undertakings. Pope Clement VIII (1592-1605) succeeded in pacifying France and Spain and Pope Clement IX (1667-1669) acted as intermediary at the Peace of Aquisgrana for a peace pact between France, Spain, England and Holland. This treaty came to be known as the Clementine Peace.
So religion has prevented a plethora of deaths. It has also stopped a few civil revolts in my country as well.
Crusades 1-5
2000000
The inquisition
2258
Thirty Years War
3000000-115000000
Salem Witch Trials
25
Nigerian Civil War
The Nigerian Civil War, also known as the Nigerian–Biafran War, 6 July 1967 – 15 January 1970, was a political conflict caused by the attempted secession of the southeastern provinces of Nigeria as the self-proclaimed Republic of Biafra.
3.1 million.
And that was secular or at least had some secular reasons for starting.
Second Sudanese Civil war
Another factor in the second war were the natural resources of Sudan, particularly in the South, where there are significant oil fields. Oil revenues make up about 70% of Sudan's export earnings. Due to numerous tributaries of the Nile river and heavier precipitation in southern Sudan, the south also has greater access to water, and is therefore much more fertile. The north of the country is on the edge of the Sahara desert. The northern desire to control these resources in 2004 to present, and the southern desire to maintain control of the resources where they live, contributed to the war. A parallel war between the Nuer and Dinka also raged in the south.
This is neither religious or secular but a mixture of both so I will ither ignore the number or drop them on both sides.
The Lebanese Civil War
120000-150000
It's late and I am too lazy to math this out.
World War 2 has a large mixture of reasons, mainly Hitler's expansionist theory ad superior race theory. Jews were never killed for their religion, how many times do I have to say that on this site?
resorting to name calling aren't we now? posting a link to an orthodox jew website to support your claim that Judaism is a race is not an effective argument. Grow up
Nothing promotes secular war. Wars that have no religious factor are, by default, secular.
I mean, people have been alive for thousands of years with religion so why aren't 99% of the wars motivated by religion?
Because there are other reasons to fight wars? Land disputes mostly, or political reasons, or just for expansion of an empire.
Wasn't the point of the debate. The point of the debate is to find whether the lack of religion is bad for society. Apparently it is not.
The point of the debate was clearly to rack up a foolish tally of "who's killed more" except no wars have ever been fought for secularism. Lack of religion is obviously good for society and i can give alot of reasons why besides tallying up who killed more or less. Norway for example is the most peacefull country like 5 years running and they are mostly atheist/secular with a percentage above 80% of the population not religious.
Secularism (the lack of religion based on your definition) seems to start many wars. Secularism
No, secularism hasnt ever started a war. Its just that wars that are not religious are by default described as secular, not that secularism was a cause that was being fought for.
Pontiffs brought peace and settled disputes between warring factions. Pope Celestine II (1143-1144) successfully attempted and stopped the war between Scotland and England. Pope Martin IV (1281-1285) strove to unite in the bonds of charity the kings and lords of the time. Pope Innocent VIII (1484-1492) assiduously attempted at bringing peace between Catholic states and did his utmost to repress the slave traffic, also assisting Columbus in his undertakings. Pope Clement VIII (1592-1605) succeeded in pacifying France and Spain and Pope Clement IX (1667-1669) acted as intermediary at the Peace of Aquisgrana for a peace pact between France, Spain, England and Holland. This treaty came to be known as the Clementine Peace.
So religion has prevented a plethora of deaths. It has also stopped a few civil revolts in my country as well.
okay. and...? Religion kills people and saves them. i never made the point that religion has never settled a dispute. Religion helped bring Europe out of the dark ages, but religion is what caused the dark ages in the first place. its good deeds are often negated by its bad. but yes, it does good.
As Nigeria gained autonomy in the late 1950s, ethnic cleavages worsened among the dominant ethnic groups – Yoruba, Igbo, and Hausa-Fulani. When full independence was granted in 1960, Nigeria was ruled by a tenuous coalition of the Nigerian People’s Congress – a northern-based, aristocratic Muslim party – and the National Council of Nigeria and the Cameroons – a southern-based, populist Christian party. By 1966, a series of coups brought the country under military rule. In May 1967, the Eastern Region declared independence as the Republic of Biafra, leading to civil war with the Northern and Western Regions until 1970. The following decade, rising oil revenues strengthened the federal government but also contributed to rampant corruption and an unsustainable economic structure. A civilian regime ruled Nigeria from 1979 to 1984, but its corruption led to a return to military rule from 1984 until 1999, when democracy was reinstated with the election of Olusegun Obasanjo, a Yoruba Christian. Umaru Yar’Adua, a Fulani Muslim and Obasanjo’s hand-picked successor, was elected president in 2007. Ethnic and religious tensions continue to run high in Nigeria, with periodic violent clashes between Muslims and Christians often connected to political events.
Religion is clearly involved so no, it is not secular at all. As soon as religion becomes even a little teeny tiny bit involved in something it is no longer secular by definition.
In the early Sudanese state, the government enacted many repressive measures. In 1962, foreign Christian missionaries were expelled from the country, and Christian schools were closed. The government's attacks on southern protesters resulted in sporadic fighting and mutinies, transitioning into a full-scale civil war. The civil war ended in 1972, with the Addis Ababa Agreement. Part of the agreement was a great deal of religious and cultural autonomy to the south
Religion was very involved in this one. The muslim leaders wanted to impose sharia law and attack christians so it escalated into civil war.- ie not secular
Nothing promotes secular war. Wars that have no religious factor are, by default, secular.
So secular just pop up out of the blue spontaneously? Don't you believe religion could stop some of these wars?
Because there are other reasons to fight wars? Land disputes mostly, or political reasons, or just for expansion of an empire.
Again, can't a religion stop these wars?
The point of the debate was clearly to rack up a foolish tally of "who's killed more" except no wars have ever been fought for secularism. Lack of religion is obviously good for society and i can give alot of reasons why besides tallying up who killed more or less. Norway for example is the most peacefull country like 5 years running and they are mostly atheist/secular with a percentage above 80% of the population not religious.
Okay, no. This makes no sense. Atheists or secular people are not even remotely motivated to avoid conflict. The reason for Norway's peace is probably more related to job availability and resources.
An abundance of atheists inherently changes nothing. So, that reason is pretty null and void. Unless you can convince me that their is a direct correlation between a religous belief and criminal negligence.
Religion is clearly involved so no, it is not secular at all. As soon as religion becomes even a little teeny tiny bit involved in something it is no longer secular by definition.
There are secular contributions as well. I don't believe that as soon as religion becomes involved, the war can't be called secular.
Religion kills people and saves them. i never made the point that religion has never settled a dispute. Religion helped bring Europe out of the dark ages, but religion is what caused the dark ages in the first place.
I am just not buying this one, Europe fell into the dark ages because of the fall of rome. When Rome fell, everything that kept the tribes together went with it which caused constant war and dispute which caused the dark ages.
So secular just pop up out of the blue spontaneously? Don't you believe religion could stop some of these wars?
what the fuck are you talking about? Nothing pops out of anywhere. Just listen very closely: if a war has any religious factor in it-----> it is not secular. If a war has NO religious factors in it----->it IS secular.
And sure religions can stop these conflicts but they create alot more than they stop, or choose not to stop them, or if they do stop them it creates another issue in doing so.
Okay, no. This makes no sense. Atheists or secular people are not even remotely motivated to avoid conflict.
arent all normal people motivated to avoid conflict? what makes us motivated to engage in conflict if were not avoiding it?
The reason for Norway's peace is probably more related to job availability and resources.
I never said Norway's peace was caused by atheism (though it is undoubtedly a huge factor in maintaining it) but also the opposite exists that atheism is the result of a peacefull nation. There is a correlation no matter which way you look at it.
An abundance of atheists inherently changes nothing. So, that reason is pretty null and void. Unless you can convince me that their is a direct correlation between a religous belief and criminal negligence.
Conflicts between religions have existed as long as the religions have. For example, christians and muslims. Theyve fought for thousands of years and despite it being 2013 they are still fighting in the middle east and there are at least tensions in civilized parts of the world. But in Norway where 70% of the population share the same beliefs:none at all, logically we see the decrease in tensions and conflict. it isnt rocket science.
More statistics based mostly on Denmark and Sweden (much like Norway) including stats on murder rates comparing these two and more to over 50 of the most religious countries
There are secular contributions as well. I don't believe that as soon as religion becomes involved, the war can't be called secular.
Youre an idiot. It had to be said just deal with it. Now that thats out of the way:
Any contribution that isnt a religious one is by default secular: ie if America trades gun ships to Britian in exchange for military bases. Theres no religion involved so it was a secular deal. That doesnt mean the deal was in favor of secularity. Secular is only an adjective used to describe things that arent religious. Now if America had traded those guns to support a movement to end religion then you could make the argument that it was done FOR secularism. But that has never and will never happen
As for the last part youre just flat out wrong. i dont care what you believe. Secularity describes the ABSENCE of religion. Therfore, as soon as religion becomes a part of something it is no longer secular. It isnt necessarily religious now, its just NOT secular.
I am just not buying this one, Europe fell into the dark ages because of the fall of rome. When Rome fell, everything that kept the tribes together went with it which caused constant war and dispute which caused the dark ages.
And what do you think caused the fall of the roman empire? Christianity. It killed off the great minds of the time, rerouted large sums of money and labor from education and agriculture to church construction and services, rerouted education away from philosophy, science, math, ect. to learning scripture, it created internal conflict with the large pagan population within itself as well as surrounding muslim nations and germanic tribes. All of this snowballed and ultimately led to its fall. Of course it wasnt the only factor but it was a massive one nonetheless. It then kept europe in the dark ages by once again re-routing income into church construction and maintenance, suppressing science, math, philosophy, ect and creating conflict with other nations.
Dude, you are probably ten cuils away from reality. Was the Trojan war religious? Well, was it, or was it a fight over a stupid woman? What about the first and second punic wars, formulate the religious reasoning behind that.
The trijan war possibly never even happened, there are no historical evidence outside of Homers lliad that shows record any such conflictbtook place, even if it did the only record of it within homers story depicts it within a mythological stance, most likely exaggeratted.
You missed the point. I am telling you people start wars over dumb shit, but apparently you can't realize what I am saying. If you don't like that example, then you can remember when a war started just because Britain hoisted a flag.
In Sicily, the cities of Messana and Syracuse were at war. Separate factions in Messana asked Rome and Carthage for help.The Carthaginians arrived first, but were driven out by the Romans.The Carthaginians then allied with Syracuse, thus starting war with Rome
2nd Punic War: 770000
The Second Punic War between Carthage and Rome was ignited by the dispute over the hegemony of Saguntum, a Hellenized Iberian coastal city with diplomatic contacts with Rome.[4] After great tension within the city government, culminating in the assassination of the supporters of Carthage, Hannibal laid siege to the city of Saguntum in 219 BC. The city called for Roman aid, but the pleas fell on deaf ears.
Siege of Carthage: 445000
Carthage was being hassled by Roman allies in Africa, but the previous treaty dictated they were not allowed to fight back. Carthage decided to fight which resulted in the Third Punic War because Rome retaliated. Rome also captured Greece, which is not taken into account here.
Social War: 300000
The captured allied states of Rome revolted, for independence because of no citizenship.
Mithridatic Wars (there were three) 720000+
The first was basically a fight for expansion of land between the Pontian Empire, Rome and Nicodemian Empire. The second Mithridatic and third mithridatic wars were a continuing conflict after Pontus lost the first.
Caesar's Gallic War: 700000
Caesar plundered territories to get Rome and himself out of debt.
Boudica's revolt: 150000
Boudica revolted against Rome's attempt to capture and disarm the entire Icenian tribe after the death of her husband and king.
What an absurd response, my statistics are considerably more accurate than what you originally presented, unless you are going to provide a real dispute instead of focusing on the elementary, then I will not bother replying.
You don't have statistics, you have a number that you are giving me.
The Chinese had 17 - 22 million people die. If it was 22, your number of 27 is accurate. Obviously if it was 17, your number is not. So, your number is not off by hundreds, try millions.
And, if you go to the link for the source of those numbers, it takes you to the Wikipedia page for that war which has 17 Mil to 22 Mil. Your numbers are off by 5 million.
All the wars ivolving the Roman Empire were all unanimously based on religion, it was to indoctrinate other civilizations into their customs and suppress any that differed, hence why they segregated the Jews by placing them in Palestine.
What are you even talking about? I don't think you read any of the reasons dragged straight from wikipedia. Nothing was about religion, in fact if what you are talking about is the truth, the Romans would have never even remotely considered adopting the hellenistic gods. They would be as xenophobic as the Spartans. They would also not have client states and allow them to retain their own culture in certain instances. The Caesar Gallic wars was just one war which is a perfect example of not being unanimously based on religion.
Secularism wasn'tbthe motivation behind those, if you are simply setting up this debate to make yourself look like an opininated jerk, then your doing a great job sir
Religion was not the motivation for them either. And you have made more bigoted statements with the stroke of a key that I could ever dream of in my entire life.
Oh ok and if atheists took a leaf out of the good book they would quickly see the biblical God killed 2.8 million people but that's cool because he has moral authority..... Oh and he is a loving God .... Ha Ha Ha
If you want you can bring it up instead of being so mad and sarcastic about it. God killed 3 million people, people killed 83000000 people. Who do you think is worse? I mean he is God, he should be able to kill us all without anybody saying anything right? He is entitled to taking your life only because he gave it to you, but who are we to kill 83 million lives?
Ok so what I said is mad God killed 2.8 million ...mad ? It's in the book of Fairytales !!! He is a loving God ? Sarcasm ? Again it's in the book of fairytales !!! So your wrong twice and I have not even started...... A Being of pure love is not capable of murder yet the murdering butcher of the "good book" is it is a total contradiction..... "He should be able to kill because He is God ,and what right have we" well he did make us in his own image according to the book of fairytales so I suppose we are just doing what the murdering butcher wants.What is really frightening is you believe this rubbish ,seriously by definition your insane
Wrong? Where have I been wrong? Either way, you have not really presented much to argue about.
well he did make us in his own image according to the book of fairytales so I suppose we are just doing what the murdering butcher wants.
Nope, you forgot the part where man messed up and fell from grace. You never read the Bible properly huh? Anywho, we are no longer a reflection of God's image anymore, so this argument is a failure.
What is really frightening is you believe this rubbish ,seriously by definition your insane
What is really frightening is that you strayed from the debate by miles, and overshot your point. You also grossly misrepresented the Bible, probably because you never read it really. But it is my fault for indulging with you.
Talk about deluded you don't even know your own your own book of lies .... You just don't get it a loving murdering God ,and you don't think that's insane!!!!! And your right I did misrepresent the book of lies i forgot to mention the rape ,incest,slavery ,torture ,genocide all in the name of a God Who said "thou shalt not kill".... I don't think you and your fellow lunatics comprehend this because as I said your insane .... Now away with you and torment someone else with your childish ramblings.... Get help for your own good
Crusades: European Christians invade the Middle East Raping and pillagging Muslims for their religion
American Indian Wars: Genocide and enslavement of Native Americans by Christian European Americans
Various Wars of The Roman Empire: done to convert their opponents into their religous customs
Armenian Genocide in WWI: Thousands of Armenian Christians genocided by the Islamic based society of The Ottoman Empire
Holocaust in WWII: despite what Christians will tell you, Hitler was a Catholic, he identifies as such many times in his auto biography "Mein Kampf", and stated that his persecution of the Jews was justified by their torture and crucification of Jesus
The Purge in Stalinist Russia: Religion is suppressed by Stalin to promote state worship
The War on Terror: Islamic fundementalists fighting to spread their religion across the world
Atheism is not dangerous unless the Atheist is violent about his/her beliefs. Their moral authority comes from their own consciousness or people on earth of higher power.
Exactly. It applies to everything because we all suffer from human emotion and the ability to choose our own beliefs. People will fight over what they stand for, that's how we work.
What gives a better excuse than religion? People do bad things regardless of their beliefs, its human nature, but religion gives an excuse to justify those who do it "in the name of their God"
Religion was a part of those culture, Hitler and the nazis believed that the jews were inferior because of their relgion, the japanese expanded their empire because they believed that their emperor was a god
The fact that religion was a part of their cultures does not show that the conflicts and death counts were religiously motivated. You are confusing correlation with causation here. Politics were also part of the Medieval cultures that engaged in the crusades, could I then make the argument that the crusades were not religious wars, but secular political ones? Of course not. Because there are religious people in a culture does not mean that all actions taken by that culture are therefore of a religious nature.
I also have some problems with you historical points as well. The Jews, for example, were not killed because of their religion, but because of their race. Jews who had converted to Christianity were still sent to the death camps. There were race laws that prevented someone with Jewish ancestors from entering high office, regardless of how long his family had been Christian or secular. The Nazis were seeking racial purity, not religious purity (since they were also killing priests and outlawing religious education).
The Soviets (who killed far, far more than the Nazis), were explicitly atheist, so it is hard to argue that their motivations were religious. As such, your argument immediately falls apart.
It is true that the Japanese believed their Emperor was a god (though the sincerity of this belief varied greatly). But the Emperor was not the one pushing WWII. The military was. The military was made up of extremely secular Japanese who largely pushed the Emperor into the war. And they didn't do so because he was a deity, they did so because they needed access to large mineral deposits in China, rubber and oil in the south Pacific and territorial buffers from other large powers. None of those are religious reasons, they are secular, political concerns.
I'm going to have to vote on the secular side, considering that most religious wars were actually fought for secular reasons; religion was mainly used to facilitate getting the lower classes willing to fight. This is not the only method, it's just one that happens to be particularly effective; playing on an existing belief system. Take religion out of the picture and other methods would be found.
It's easy to dress up a lot of wars as being religious wars simply by pointing out that X% of one side was one religion and Y% of the other side was another, but very few wars overall have been started for religious reasons.
The US Revolution was a religious war- motivated primarily by freedom of religion; WW2 was not, despite the fact that the Jews were targetted- recall that Jews are not only a religion but also an ethnic group.
Religion has been called the opiate of the masses for more than one reason.
Everyone will hate me for looking this up and making this HUGE list, but I did because I found this topic quite interesting. So, I looked up "all wars ever" and Wikipedia (yes, I like Wikipedia. I trust it.) came up with a list. And then I thought it would take forever to read every article on every war in history, so I looked up religious-caused wars. Then I wrote them all down. I then went back to the Wikipedia page and wrote down all wars that I didn't write down before. Then I realized the list only consisted of early modern to modern wars (about year 1000-present). But these have more casualties anyway. But, let's go to my list:
Religious-caused wars and death toll (in no particular order):
Thirty Years' War = 3,000,000 - 11,500,000
French Wars of Religion (Huguenot Wars) = 2,000,000 - 4,000,000
Second Sudanese Civil War = 1,000,000 - 2,000,000
The Crusades = 1,000,000 - 3,000,000
Lebanese Civil War = 130,000 - 250,000
Wars of the Three Kingdoms = 315,000 - 735,000
"War on Terror" = 272,000 – 1,260,009
Albigensian Crusade = 200,000 – 1,000,000
Iraq War = 176,913 – 1,120,000
Islamic insurgency in the Philippines = 120,000
Palestinian-Israeli conflict = 115,311
Iranian Revolution = 2,781
Iraqi insurgency = 8,136+
Taiping Rebellion = 20,000,000
Afghan Civil War = 15,000 - 18,000
Algerian Civil War = 44,000 - 150,000
Fatah-Hamas conflict = 600+
1999 Shia uprising in Iraq = 200+
Central African Republic conflict = 2,000
Civil war in Tajikistan = 50,000 - 100,000
Cristero War = 250,000
Internal conflict in Burma = 210,000
ISIS/ISIL activities = 5,576+
Muslim civil wars = info not found
Somali Civil War = 300,000 - 500,000
Sri Lankan Civil War = 60,000 – 100,000
Civil War in Iraq = 2,338,965
Islamist insurgency in Nigeria = 15,000+
Operation Zarb-e-Azb = 1,356
The Troubles (Northern Ireland) = 3,530
War in the Vendee = 170,000 - 200,000
Second Sudanese Civil War = 1,000,000 - 2,000,000
Sudan-SRF conflict = 643 - 1,500
War in Afghanistan = 20,000 - 35,000
War in North-West Pakistan = 28,338+
Peasants' War = 100,000
Black Hawk War = 527-677
1838 Mormon War = 22
Morrisite War = 9
Second Sino-Japanese War = 18,000,000 - 23,000,000
Lord's Resistance Army insurgency = 200,000 - 500,000
The sum of all of the (maximum) values is: 74,672,001 deaths. (A lot of deaths caused by religion!)
Not included in this list are the religions I found but could not find the death toll. Here they are:
Hussite Wars
Eighty Years' War
Schmalkaldic War
First War of Villmergen
Maccabean Revolt
Ottoman-Persian War
Pagan reaction in Poland
Roman-Sassanid War
Toggenburg War
Non-religious caused wars and death tolls (again, no particular order):
World War II = 85,000,000 (Single-handedly more deaths than all religious-caused wars combined)
Mongol Conquests = 70,000,000
Qing dynasty conquest of Ming dynasty = 25,000,000
World War I = 40,000,000
An Lushan Rebellion = 13,000,000
Chinese Civil War = 7,500,000
Conquests of Tamerlane = 20,000,000
Russian Civil War and Foreign Intervention = 9,000,000
Dungan revolt = 10,000,000
Napoleonic Wars = 6,000,000
Second Congo War = 5,400,000
Shaka's conquests = 2,000,000
Korean War = 1,200,000
Conquests of Mehmed II = 873,000
Vietnam War = 3,800,000
Mexican Revolution = 2,000,000
Iran-Iraq War = 1,000,000
Japanese invasions of Korea = 1,000,000
Soviet war in Afghanistan = 1,622,865
Seven Years' War = 1,400,000
American Civil War = 618,000
Spanish Civil War = 500,000
First Indochina War = 400,000+
Algerian War of Independence = 1,500,000
Third Northern War = 350,000
Bangladesh Liberation War = 3,000,000
Second Burundian Civil War = 300,000
Philippine-American War = 234,000
Colombian conflict = 200,000
Syrian Civil War = 260,215
War in Darfur = 461,520
Iraqi-Kurdish conflict = 320,100
Great Turkish War = 384,000
Mexican Drug War = 106,800+
Western New Guinea War = 400,000
Insurgency in Laos = 100,000
Aceh War = 107,000
Mahdist War = 90,969
Goryeo-Khitan War = 90,000
Mozambican War of Independence = 88,500
Ituri conflict = 60,000
Kurdish-Turkish conflict = 45,000
Iranian-Kurdish conflict = 34,000
Ethnic conflict in Nagaland = 34,000
Insurgency in Northeast India = 25,000
Ragamuffin War = 20,000
First Opium War = 20,069
First Anglo-Afghan War = 17,200
Balochistan conflict = 17,065
Nigerian Sharia conflict = 15,000
Republic of the Congo Civil War = 13,929
Naxalite-Maoist insurgency = 13,812
Insurgency in the Maghreb = 6,000
South Thailand insurgency = 5,469
Casamance conflict 5,000
Chilean Civil War of 1891 = 5,000
Conflict in the Niger Delta = 10,000
These are backwards because I copied them from Wikipedia since I didn't feel like writing them down word for word.
2,000 – 2010 South Kyrgyzstan ethnic clashes (2010)
1,643–2,237 – War of Transnistria (1992)
1,554 – South Yemen insurgency (2009–present)
1,229 – Basque conflict (1959-2011)
1,227–5,600 – Kargil War (1999)
1,119 – Political violence in Egypt, 2013 (2013–present)
1,000–1,500 – Cabinda conflict (1994–present)
1,000 – 1991–92 South Ossetia War (1991–1992)
846 – 2011 Egyptian revolution (2011)
659–2,496 – Russia–Georgia war (2008)
391+ – M23 rebellion (2012–present)
174–194 – United States occupation of Veracruz (1914)
A lot of wars, huh? This world is corrupt no matter how wars began. Wars are bad and pointing fingers at the people who caused them isn't going to solve our problems.
The sum of all of the values is 307,805,040 deaths.
74,672,001 < 307,805,040
Statistically speaking, the casualties of secular wars combined are greater than the casualties of religious wars combined. But war is not good in general. Instead we can solve our problems with peace.