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8
26
Yes No
Debate Score:34
Arguments:46
Total Votes:37
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 Yes (6)
 
 No (17)

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JustIgnoreMe(4290) pic



Is the Christian God the ontological source of morality?

 

It has been argued before that without God there is no objective source for morality – this is meant to address the inverse: if that God does exist, does objective morality exist?

PLEASE READ!

This is NOT a debate about whether any specific verse(s) advocate or condone actions that you think are moral or immoral.

While the relevant arguments would likely apply to many other gods/scriptures, for this debate we are specifically addressing the Christian God.

Yes

Side Score: 8
VS.

No

Side Score: 26
No arguments found. Add one!

Interpretation

If determining the moral directives of the bible is left to interpretation, then you are still practically left with subjective/relative morality.

Side: No
Amarel(5669) Disputed
1 point

An objective morality conveyed through the imperfection of human language would easily be misinterpreted. The resulting subjective morality would not eliminate the existence of the objective morality that lies behind the imperfect language.

Side: Yes
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

You are right - the interpretation argument would have to be directed at how (dis)connected our morality is to any objective morality.

Side: Yes
3 points

If I may get a word in here ------- the answer is NO

Morals are simply (Do and Do Not) rules created by a society's consensus, much the same as laws, without having a legal context. Typically morals stem from a society's need for some restraint against chaos. As such, morals have no intrinsic connection to a God or religion. IMO religions have adopted morals, in order to solidify them for the betterment of societies.

Side: No

Tautological

The presumption that God is by nature/definition good is itself a subjective perspective.

A supernatural being could easily claim to be, or have people believe they are, morally perfect whether or not they actually are.

Side: No

If God is by definition good, then he is also amoral - since morality depends on the abilty to make immoral choices.

Side: No
Amarel(5669) Disputed
1 point

The presumption of God as the definition of the good is subjective, but this may apply to any idea of any God. If the presumption were actually true, then God would be the source of morality.

Side: Yes
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

this may apply to any idea of any God

True. As I said in the description: "the relevant arguments would likely apply to many other gods/scriptures"

If the presumption were actually true

Right, but like you said "[t]he presumption of God as the definition of the good is subjective"

Side: Yes

Occam’s Razor

A creator of the universe (e.g. a multiverse) without God’s morality, omniscience, and ability to hear/answer prayers, perform miracles, etc. is far simpler and therefore more probable.

Side: No
Amarel(5669) Disputed
1 point

You may need to explain to a Christian how the complex scientific view of the universe is simpler than the Christian God/Creator view. Also, why is the existence of countless unknowable universes a simpler construct than the existence of only two universes? The Christian heaven is no less provable than the multi-verse.

Side: Yes
2 points

how the complex scientific view of the universe is simpler than the Christian God/Creator view

The scientific view has something that is potentially outside our space/time with the power to create our universe.

The God view has a disembodied mind outside our space/time with the power to create our universe AND has perfect knowledge, perfect morality, intentionality for humans, the power to override the laws of physics, etc.

Side: No
thousandin1(1931) Clarified
0 points

The problem is that saying 'god did it' just pushes the same question back a level.

A god created the universe. Ok, where did that god come from, and where is/was that god, if not 'inside' the universe? Some kind of 'metauniverse?' Where did that 'metauniverse' come from? And if god needs no place or time of origin and can be said to have always existed, why can't that same line of thinking be used in regards to the universe itself?

Scientific theories result in questions that we don't have answers to- yet. Creationism results in those same questions, just with another degree of separation, and the idea that said questions can never be answered.

Side: Yes

Conflicting moral principles

I'd prefer to debate the issue rather than each one in detail, so hopefully we can just concede that there are some and discuss from there, but examples are available if necessary.

Side: No

Inability to answer moral questions

The objectively moral action to take is inaccessible to us. If you put several extremely pious people in separate rooms with a list of moral dilemmas – they will come to disparate conclusions based on varied (subjective) reasoning. The existence of this site is evidence that moral questions still exist that have no objective answer.

Side: No
Amarel(5669) Disputed
1 point

The idea that moral answers are inaccessible to us does not mean that they do not exist, or that they will never be accessible. The Christian God is mysterious according to Christians. This then supports the findings that many aspects (though not all as you seem to claim) of morality are also mysterious.

Side: Yes
1 point

As with the interpretation argument, this mostly goes to our disconnectedness from such objective morality. Though it does raise the question: does God judge us based on a morality that we cannot access?

Side: No

Erroneous claims

Morality in the bible presupposes that witches/sorcerers/necromancers really exist and that infirmities are caused by demons.

Side: No
thousandin1(1931) Clarified
1 point

On the whole, I agree with you that No, the Christian God is not the ontological source of morality. I further do not believe in objective morality at all. These clarifications are only to nit-pick a few aspects of your reasoning.

Morality in the bible presupposes that witches/sorcerers/necromancers really exist

Numerous people these days believe that witches and the like do exist. This is not limited to Christians, and there are entire other religions built around the idea that witchcraft is a thing. I offer this not as proof that witches exist (in the sense of those actually practicing 'magic' of some kind) , but merely noting that there are some who will claim to be witches that claim to be able to perform some form of magic, some of whom will be able to make some kind of performance that is convincing (at least to a subset of the audience), some of whom will attempt to exploit that either directly or indirectly for personal gain.

No actual magic is necessary for 'witchcraft' to be perceived as a problem by the early church, or to serve as an affront to the god in question (should said gods existence be assumed, that is).

and that infirmities are caused by demons

This implies that the bible assumes that ALL infirmities are caused by demons, which is never (to my knowledge) asserted. The assumption that demons exist and can cause various infirmities in an individual does not imply that an individuals case of influenza or rabies specifically is caused by a demon.

Side: Yes
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

No actual magic is necessary for 'witchcraft' to be perceived as a problem

I think that is a valid argument regarding the verses that say people should not consult mediums, etc., but not against the verses that say a person should not be a medium, etc.

This implies that the bible assumes that ALL infirmities are caused by demons

"And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.""

Matthew 10:1

Side: Yes

Absence of free will

If God knew the entirety of what would happen by creating this universe and still created it thusly - a person lacks moral agency since their actions were/are predestined by God.

Side: No
thousandin1(1931) Clarified
1 point

On the whole, I agree with you that No, the Christian God is not the ontological source of morality. I further do not believe in objective morality at all. These clarifications are only to nit-pick a few aspects of your reasoning.

Absence of free will

If God knew the entirety of what would happen by creating this universe and still created it thusly - a person lacks moral agency since their actions were/are predestined by God.

Not necessarily. This makes certain assumptions about the nature of precognition that may not necessarily be the case.

Consider the character Paul Atreides from the sci-fi series 'Dune.' This character has precognition that functions as the ability to see the many different paths the future can possibly take, and the eventual consequences of any given action. He does not see the future as one inevitable line, but as a series of branching paths with varying end results.

For a more direct example of the same thing, if I were to look up a strategy guide for one of several RPGs- say, Mass Effect- I could see the outcome of the protagonists various choices, no matter what they are. In my game, Sheppard may choose A or B (for example) freely- but I can see not only the immediate results of this choice, but also the outcome of the decision between C and D that is presented if A is chosen, or the decision between E and F if B is chosen. In practice, if Sheppard chooses A, he will never be presented with the choice between E and F- nevertheless, I can see what would happen if Sheppard had hypothetically chosen B, and then chosen F.

A gods knowledge of the future, along those lines, does not compromise free will. Whether or not free will is a thing is another debate entirely, but a god with precognitive abilities does not in and of itself preclude the possibility of free will without making some very specific assumptions regarding the nature of precognition.

Side: Yes
JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

If Paul could see that if he chose to do X, then person A would end up killing person Z, but he chooses paths besides X person A would not kill person Z, does that shift the blame for the death of person Z from person A to Paul?

Side: Yes
1 point

Absence of free will = Absence of Morality

Best Point Yet!

Side: No

Better explanation exists

Evolution has produced several species with (and without) a tendency to perform actions we consider moral, and better explains our drive toward cooperative competition than the Bible.

(I’d prefer this to be about evolution’s impact on what is perceived as moral rather than a debate about whether evolution exists, but it seems unfair to restrict it – perhaps we can use an existing evolution debate.)

Side: No
1 point

You people are crazy, God judges base on what you do with your life. He still loves you very much no matter what. You should have no doubts and stop debating wether God is real because there is no reason to debate about it. God is real, Period. And all you have to do is believe by faith. I can say all this and I am only 15 and I am adopted from Haiti at the age of 9 and I spent years learning how to please the Devil and when I got to America I went to church and I knew God was real. I needed to start pleasing him and living for him only.

Side: No
1 point

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

No. 3: A command of Moses:

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:

“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:

“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:

‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

Side: No
1 point

The Christian god supports slivery and the objectification of women

He only wants to be worships and thinks it's ok to skill babies or anyone who does not worship him

Then Ofcourse god does not exist

Side: No