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now. to say that the devil wants you to be an atheist, you must have some way of determining that the devil actually exists, and of determining his desires.
you have no way of determining or demonstrating the existence of the devil, satan or lucifer, and you have ignored that fact and gone on to state what the devil desires and your statement is based on a book of old writings indistinguishable from folklore and mythology.. hence there is no reason to take you seriously. because you haven't given any reason why anyone should hold this book or your naked claims, as truthful or authoritative? until you do, your arguments qualify only as special pleas and appeals to belief. both logically fallacious.
Yep he does because he is trying to get as many believers away from Jesus Christ. Also the reason why there is so many religions is to confuse everybody from going to Christianity. Also the devil tempts people into doing things but he can only be at 1 place at 1 time.
Well all the other religions are wrong and so the reason why there are so many religions is because the Devil doesn't want anyone to go to Christianity and go to other religions where the religion is wrong
Says who? you? Christianity may be the largest religion in the world, but it's not the only one. The God of Christianity is just as real as the God or gods of any other religion okay. It's alright if you believe in the teachings of Christianity, but it's stupid and idiotic of you to say that some other cultures religion is wrong. For all we know, Christianity is wrong, and Islam is right. Maybe God is fake and the Greek, and Roman gods still exist. I'm atheist so I don't believe in any God or gods, and you can say I'll end up in hell for not believe in your god, but guess what. You'll end up in the fields of punishment, in the underworld for not believing in the Olympian gods.
You definitely know what the Devil wants. You probably even asked him yourself since you're so sure. You sure he didn't mean to make you think what you are thinking so that you side with him by stating that all other religions are wrong? He's got you!
so thats why everyone is born an atheist? then the devil must be more powerful than all powerful god, because atheism is the null hypothesis. the default position.
awaiting your reply, but think it through this time.
so thats why everyone is born an atheist? then the devil must be more powerful than all powerful god, because atheism is the null hypothesis. the default position.
Not everyone as soon as they are born are a atheist. They have a choice to be an atheist or not because we have free will and choice to pick. Actually the devil is not that powerful. God could wipe him out right now but he is waiting for as many as his believers to follow him and the world to get corrupted and keep sinning until God will have enough of it and pour His wrath on the earth.
everyone is born an atheist. an atheist is one who lacks belief in a god, everyone is born lacking belief in a god. god belief is the product of indoctrination. lack of belief does not require you to be taught anything.
you act as if we are born believing in everything and someone has to convince us not to. that is not the case. we are born lacking believe in ghosts gods and other superstitious notions. these are culturally propagated. atheism is simply a lack of belief. you are born lacking belief in a god. lacking belief is not rejecting a belief that you have never been introduced to. you dont understand epistemology.
Actually a baby is not really an atheist because they don't know really anything about religion so if a baby was born in a Christian family then the child would probably be a Christian once they have a decision on what to make. I mean the baby hasn't made a choice yet. When he/she grows up it will be her decision in life whether or not to be a Christian or not. I am not lacking belief in God. I am actually have a lot of answers that could be answered if you asked me about my relationship with Jesus Christ,
everyone is born atheist. the religion of his family members is completely irrelevant. in order for a person to believe in a god, he must be taught to believe in a god. before he is taught this, he lacks belief in a god. he is therefore an atheist. there is no denying this. you simply do not understand this but it is an established fact.
He doesn't have to be taught anything I have friends that are Christians that didn't grow-up in any kind of church at all but follow God when they felt God pulling at their heart. They also said something that I like. They said "Atheism brought me not even a little of peace but God gave me all the peace I need. Just to throw that in there.
Actually a baby is not born an athiest. The babies just came in too the world and they only thing they hear is there parents voices and they can feel there parents. The baby doesn't know anything about God and religion. Later on in life once the baby grows, he/she will understand the religion thing and they he/she can decide to believe in God or believe that God doesn't exist. Are you getting my point?
But Srom, if you accept atheism as the lack of religious belief, then surely a baby, with no beliefs, would fall under that definition?
I understand where you're coming from, in that people shouldn't 'chose' their beliefs until they know their options, but that's hardly how the world works. People have views, or no views, before they know the issue.
Imagine if you were born in a sterile room, and had no form of human contact, until you were 16 (you were given books to teach you how to speak, and other basic education). If someone came in and asked you what you believed in, how could someone say Christian? They would say 'what's religion', or something similar. Without the Church, or people telling you, or the Bible, you wouldn't know about Christianity. That doesn't make it incorrect, by the way, it's simply the source of information, not its validity.
Later on in life once the baby grows, he/she will understand the religion thing and they he/she can decide to believe in God or believe that God doesn't exist.
Atheism isn't all about "believing God doesn't exist" though. Some atheists feel that way, but that isn't what makes them atheist. What makes them atheist is a lack of belief in God. That is the one thing all atheists have in common.
The baby doesn't know anything about God and religion.
If they don't know about God, then they don't believe him. A theist is someone who believes in a god or gods. An atheist is someone who does not believe in a god or gods. Because you have to be aware of the concept of Gods in order to believe in them, atheist is the default position. Its like how everyone is a non-smoker until they smoke their first cigarette.
So, anyone who is unaware of the idea of gods is automatically an atheist by definition.
What about babies? Babies don't understand anything about religion because they just came into this world and they have no idea about any of the religion stuff. All the babies do know is there parent's smell and they can hear there parents voices. So techniqually they are not an atheist. They have to decide if they are going to be an atheist or not.
My point is you don't have to decide to be atheist. If you don't know of God you don't believe in him. If you don't believe in God, you are technically an atheist. In order to be a non-atheist (which is a theist) you have to conceive of God, and then choose to believe in him. Until you have made the choice to believe, you are in the default position, the simplest level one can be at the subject, which for this topic would be agnostic atheism.
i spent a great deal of time explaining all that stuff already. he doesnt get it because he needs for it to be wrong. because in his mind, he cant fathom his god allowing people to be born atheist. you cant expect ppl with such heavy indoctrination to turn around and be intellectually honest. it's the equivalent of deciding to take a trip to hell.
no matter what you say, he's gonna disagree and commit logical fallacy in the process.
I have been debating srom off and on for quite a while now. We were even allies for a moment.
In the time he has been here he has actually improved a little bit. Not much, but more than I had previously expected.
My goal is not to turn him away from God. that is never my goal with theists. My goal is to make him a more intelligent theist. And I believe he has the potential, though it may take quite some time, and I may not be the one to do it...
its not about telling anyone what to believe. if you cant get him to have a discussion with logic as the common ground, then there is no point to it. no need comparing apples and oranges. philosophy is not actuality, and if a person wont even admit that, then you cant really cover any ground. he wont provide evidence, he wont operate within the confines of logic and all he gives is his opinion in matters where opinion and special pleas hold absolutely no weight, so what really is the point? there is none. besides, i don't wanna spend all my time explaining basic shit if i can debate with someone who already understands logic and fallacy. anyone can take whatever feels good and argue against anything that threatens it. we're not in a sandbox here. but have fun. my wheels have spun
The thing is: once people become adults, the thought processes they use tend to become more or less crystallized. There are exceptions, but most people will be about as illogical at 40 as they were at 25 or so. However, teens aren't as locked in. Their brains are still changing, their worldview still expanding (at least for most teens), they are still able to change many of their behaviors and methods of thinking with greater ease than most adults. Srom says he's 15. If there is any chance at all of him becoming more logical and reasonable, that chance is probably higher now than it would be in a decade or two. If he chooses to remain theistic, I'd rather see him be a more logical and rational theist when he's an adult than he is now.
I probably can't do much about that, but it doesn't hurt to try.
No get your point going to the right path man God is sovereign He lets people choose who they want to worship He doesn't make you do anything it is by your choice to follow Him when He is pulling at your heart.
demonstrate the existence of the devil and his desire for you to be an atheist or admit that you cannot. all your empty claims about gods , dont demonstrate anything but your beliefs., no one here is unfamiliar with christianity or its naked and empty fallacious claims.
It is pretty obvious that Satan does want you to be an atheist. Satan main plan is to turn you away from God. That is the best way one can "demonstrate" it.
Ezek 28:12-17 “You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.” NIV
Contrary to what most people believe, Satan is beautiful in appearance, but rotten inside. His pride led to his downfall. He wanted to be above God.
Isa 14:12-15 “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.” NIV
Rev 12:7-9 “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” NIV
As a consequence of his rebellion in heaven, he was hurled down to our planet. He deceived our first parents (see Gen 3) and took over their dominion over our planet. He is now called the “prince of this world” (see John 12:31) He continues even today to lead the world astray.
Please note that God gave him freedom of choice, just like He does to us. We can choose life (a life with God at our side) or we can choose death (a life independent from God). He gave us the option of choice because He cares for us. Oh how it hurts Him to see His creation go astray!
I am not a christian and i don't have faith in the bible, but even if i did, that would not prove that the bible is true. I have no reason to hold the bible as truthful or authoritative,. its words make naked claims, just like yours. they demonstrate nothing but an old style of writing ancient parables.
I asked you to demonstrate the existence of satan, not to paste words from an old book. you don't seem to know the difference.
What you believe is obvious. But what can you demonstrate? Demonstrate the existence of Satan. Not ancient writings.
Are you serious with this bullshit? I mean really, "Also the reason why there is so many religions is to confuse everybody from going to Christianity" Do you really think that you just so happened to get so goddamned lucky as to be born in to the ONLY TRUE RELIGION, AS THERE ARE FUCKING THOUSANDS. Do you really think you got that lucky?
technically, he wants you to deny very compelling evidence if it existed, denial out of self-pride is the actual sin because you would have known he existed.
No, I said that he wants you to deny compelling proof which will lead you to not believing, I said deny, denial is one thing we both agree is stupid, he wants to do it out of self-pride and not wanting to believe you are a weakling compared to God.
of course he does. it amazes me how many people are so under the devils thumb and cant see it.
i mean people seem to just want to make it harder for christians, i mean the other day i heard that they were banning prayers at the begining of council meetings and thats such a shame, im not saying people should be forced to live my way of life and if people dont want to come to prayers thats fine by me. but why do people feel the active need to make it harder to pray with others. i mean from a christian perspective i can understand that they want to save people spirit into eternal life. but answer me this, why is it that many athiests feel the need to try to convert people to their faith??? i get so many people who unprovoced just start to argue about atheism. the funny thing is they cant explain why and i can. it isnt them who wantto convert me, but the devil. and they are so under his thumb and dont even know it
now im not saying every athiest is controled by the devil. but i would argue that the devil wants people to be athiest because it opens them up to more temptation.
The 'devil' is actually a mix of two gods- Herne and Hades, Just like the goddesses of life and earth were mixed to make the 'goddess of fertility'. It must be terrible having to share identities.
srom seems to have some trouble grasping that fact. but that doesn't matter. as he's so far failed to demonstrate that which the devil desires or that he exists to desire anything.
Logically, wouldn't Satan want you to be anything but Christian (Satan is only from Christianity, I think?). Doesn't mean the statement is wrong, just that it's not complete.
Well, it depends on how you use the world 'would'. I used it dependent on the condition that he did exist. But I personally don't believe in him, so of course you couldn't say he did or did not want a or b without using the premise that he does exist, it would be a pointless debate.
no one claims, 'a nonexistent demon wants you to be a christian". because there is no reason to believe that a demon never proven to exist 'wants' anything.
there is nothing riding on proving satan doesnt exist. but a lot is riding on the belief that he does. billions of dollars are at stake, so is political power. there are those who benefit from your belief in satan. thats why fear is cultivated through religion. it increases tithes sevenfold.
Hypothetically here... If the devil is suppose to be the ultimate evil, wouldn't the Devil want you to be a theist for the devil? Atheists do not choose the Devil, they're on the neutral playing field here. But wouldn't it be more hurtful to God that not only are you not on his side, but you choose the ultimate evil over God?
However, allow me to play....ahem....devil's advocate here.
The devil supposedly wants people to turn away from God. But he also has a reputation for being a sneaky trickster who uses deceit to get what he wants. It seems that he might be able to be a more effective devil if he could sew corruption within the ranks of Christianity. Contort its meanings in a way that would lead the Christians he had corrupted to do horrible things in the name of God or of their faith. Things like, say, launching the occasional crusade, burning a witches here and there, convincing people that it is rational to believe in witches.
And hey, it seems he would be a heck of a salesman. I wouldn't really be surprised if he could, say, write a book that supposedly portrays a history of God's actions and claims to explain what God wants and doesn't want; and then convince everybody that this book is in fact the word of God! Imagine all of the bigotry, misunderstanding, warfare and murder that would emerge if he did that....
Quickly you do realise that the devil is not asupernatural being but is sin right? Satan means adversary and so does not mean there is a red demon thing with hors and a spiky tail. Also in kings it says that God oppposed David in a battle but in the paralel account in chronicles says that Satan opposed David so yeah God cannot turn into an evil incarnated thing...
First off, if your an atheist than you dont believe in anything, and wouldnt satan want you to be satanic rather than sticking to your personal set of morals? The answer is yes for all those ignorant people.
i think yes satan would want you to be satanic. however i think its quite difficult to convert people to the belief in satan and praising him. so i think in most cases he settles for just turning them away from god.
hell will freeze, over before, i turn atheist.............................................................................................................
Okay it looks like we need to set premises for religious debates because almost all of them turn into the same debate of "does God(or satan) exist". So it would make more sense for atheists who enter religious debates to be hypothetical.
The religious section of this site is kind of a joke because the majority are atheists who don't seem to mind having the same debate over and over again. )))))X
Anyways. The answer is no. All he has to do is get you to not live your faith. He doesn't care what you call yourself.
As a Christian I wouldn't be as intolerant as to say atheists are satanic. I think atheists are in such defensive mode that they might think something like that. Whoever made the debate is probably an atheist being facetious.. right?
According to the Christian bible I seriously doubt the devil cares one way or the other. Does his power grow with numbers? Either way, until Christianity came along, there was no satan or a place of eternal damnation.