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Debate Score:33
Arguments:32
Total Votes:33
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Axmeister(4322) pic



The Lifeboat Game (Morality Test)

There's this passenger liner sailing from Britain to Australia (a nice long cruise). Halfway through the journey it sinks. During the panic and chaos of the sinking process you regain consiousness on some remaining debris with 15 other people. A lifeboat floats up to you all, but it can only support 10 people. Since you found the lifeboat you get to decide the 9 other people who will join you.

1) A Doctor, GP, who has an addiction to drugs and is very nervous (Male/60 years old)

2) A black Protestant Minister, (Male/27 years old)

3) A prostitute, but is an excellent nurse, she has already saved a drowning child and put him on another lifeboat (Female/37 years old)

4) A criminal. Charged with murder and can navigate the boat. (Male/37)

5) A mentally disturbed man, who carries important government secrets in his head (Male/41)

6) A law-abiding salesman. He sells automatic washing machines and is also a member of the Rotary Club. (Male/51)

7) A crippled boy, paralyzed since birth. He cannot use his hands and is dependant on others. (Male/8)

8) A housewife with two children at home (Female/23)

9) A Jewish resteraunt owner, married with 3 children at home. (Male/40)

10) A Teacher considered one of the best in England. (Female/32)

11) A Catholic Nun, supervisor of a girl's school. (Female/46)

12) An unemployed man, formally a proffessor of literature. He has a great sense of homour and is a decorated soldier for his contribution in the last war and was in a concentration camp for 3 years. (Male/53)

13) An Irish man studying to be a pharmicist. (Male/23) And is married to...

14) An Irish woman, studying to be a  nursury teacher. (Female/22)

15) An American, he is also a Neo-Nazi and thus hates the Jew. However he has a large box of food which he will throw into the sea unless he goes into the lifeboat. (Male/20)

Rules

6 of the above must die. Just pick 6 and then justify your options.

Don't attempt to find holes in the hypothetical situation (e.g "Who would want to go to Australia?") it's a lot easier and saves space if you stick to the topic.

Whether you eventually arrive at a desert island or a civilised land is purely chance. Thus, you should prepare you choices for both outcomes.

Add New Argument
2 points

In terms of my list, I concur with ricedaragh's list and reasoning.

But I do have an objection to the setup title. This setup cannot really be used to measure morality, only survival instinct and only the morality that fits it. When I took a Sociology class, we studied a case of cannibalism where these were regular/average humans who crashed from a plane onto an iced desert. They didn't know where they were or if help was close, snow and ice were everywhere and they weren't clothed for it. Instantly morality started changing, survival was the main priority. Those who didn't survive the crash would be the first to be eaten, to their advantage, the weather preserved the dead bodies. At first they wanted to cook the meat so it wasn't so bad, but that took out a lot of the nutrients they needed. They ate the raw dead to survive. They made new morals for their new environment.

The same would have to be done in this scenario. While we choose from good, moral people who are useless to survival versus immoral, useful to survival.

You gotta pick survival.

1 point

It might interest you to know that I came across this game in a Sociology class. While I have adapted it here for better explanation it is more or less the same game.

However I did explain in the description that the chances of arriving at inhabited land and beaching on a desert island are equal.

I would almost willingly bet money that if most of the people who answered the "Game" already, were actually in such a situation then they would probably choose differently.

It's not just the raw concept of survival. Who are you to tell someone they're not worth keeping alive when someone else, such as a murderer, is.

I would sacrifice.

1: Black Protestant Minister,

2:Catholic Nun

3:Mentally disturbed man

4:Law-abiding salesman.

5:Jewish resteraunt owner

6:A crippled boy

All bring no value to the group.

An educated war survivor, doctor, navigator, pharmacist, nurse/prostitute, food source and 3 healthy women capable of reproduction and formation of sandwiches, especially if one has training in child work, and another is a decorated teacher, all provide a greater survival chance to the group both in the short and long term.

5:Jewish resteraunt owner

Maybe he can cook. And Jewish food is not that bad. Also, if you bring the Nazi along, you'll have built in entertainment ;)

I did state I was bringing women for sandwich making as well as reproduction, and it's the same gamble that a restaurant owner can cook as anyone else, believe me, I was a chef for eleven years.

1 point

"and another is a decorated teacher"

Sorry, when I said decorated I meant as a soldier. I'll make that more clear in the description.

Either way, it's a very cynical death list you got there, (though when I did it mine was very similar). Not much morality there, it's either you bring something to the table or you die.

It wouldn't be an easy situation, but logically this would seem like the most obvious group.

I mean keeping a Jewish man just because he has kids, and denying everyone a food source in the same decision seems far more immoral to me, besides, the religious leanings of the rest of the group are never specified so I can't see anyone really wanting a Priest or Nun taking their place, they also, as they are Christians should give up their place.

The American doesn't have a "Male/Age" thing.

Id leave two, because a Protestant Minister is completely useless in any situation, and quite likely to be annoying.

Id leave five because even on the off chance the government secretes he knows are actually government secrets, this would just decrease the chance of being rescued. Even if they're not, he doesn't benefit the party at all.

Seven, obviously, would stay; as a vegetable paraplegic he would contribute the least while simultaneously being the biggest liability.

Eight would stay because the housewife doesn't have any skills or equipment I find relevant to surviving on a lifeboat or a deserted island.

Id also leave nine, for the same reason I'd leave eight and because it would allow me to bring the Nazi (and his food) without conflict.

I'd leave eleven as well because a) there are not little girls to supervise on the boat or the island b) I don't need or want a Catholic nun nagging me about my excessive use of swear words, and c) I'm sure god'll save her... right?

Axmeister(4322) Disputed
1 point

"The American doesn't have a "Male/Age" thing. "

I'll fix that.

"Id leave five because even on the off chance the government secretes he knows are actually government secrets, this would just decrease the chance of being rescued. Even if they're not, he doesn't benefit the party at all. "

True, the fact that he's mentally disturbed also could lead to him being a danger to the others.

"I'd leave ten. Being a great teacher in England is like being a mediocre teacher elsewhere, so I am not impressed with her credentials."

England exports exams, it's one of the best places to get education in the world.

I know, I know. I had to troll you a little, especially since the representative from England in this morality test is a revered educator, and the American delegate is a neo-Nazi.

And I changed my answer shortly after posting because I realized I had missed the paralyzed kid as an option. My opinions of the British school system aside, pretty much any functioning adult is more useful than a vegetable kid.

I would stay behind so that 7 others can go instead of 6, I'm really not that important to the group.

I would find it hard to tell people who gets to stay and who doesn't, so I might end up pulling names out of a hat to see who gets to go, that way, everyone gets a fair chance.

Saying that, I'd definitely bring the prostitute. You know, for whatever she was supposed to be good at.

2 points

"I would stay behind so that 7 others can go instead of 6, I'm really not that important to the group."

Would you do that in real life though?

ricedaragh(2494) Clarified
2 points

Saying that, I'd definitely bring the prostitute. You know, for whatever she was supposed to be good at.

Dressing wounds, taking care of the sick, extracting bodily fluids.

I'm not afraid of death. However, Drowning is my number one way NOT to die. So..., no..., I wouldn't give up my seat. If it was a firing squad or something like that..., then yeah. I'd give it to someone else if they want it.

1 point

It's an interesting case study but I think it highly unlikely that any of us giving answers today would come up with the same ones when tested under fire.

there's also insufficient information. I would want to know how individuals of this entire group are acting at the time the boat is found--a clue to their characters would be useful

for instance, having a doctor on board COULD be a good thing, but if he's showing signs of nervousness under pressure, he may be no where near as stable as he is in his own private practice and is likely to go "wingy" as anyone else.

the crippled child might not necessarily be a hindrance. He may be just the type of individual who would instill hope and inspiration in the other survivors. He might be a poet in the making. surely his handicap does not define him as a would-be choice for survival.

I have little difficulty leaving the religious behind because those who would lead through the invocation of a mythical figure would just be a source of annoyance. besides, with such a fervent belief in a god, I would think that the religious would take this as a fortuitous opportunity to get "nearer my god to thee."

the alleged murderer may or may not be guilty..but even if he is, the crime he's been accused of may be a mercy killing. I would want that type along side of me just in case things got so bad I'd be begging for an easy out. alas, I am no heroine.

--and so on and so forth..................it's not always what may seem obvious.....but then again.........

bottom line - sheeeesh, maybe drawing straws Is the best way to go...................dunno.

NeverUTOG(49) Clarified
1 point

P.s. My shift cap ain't working as it should--sometimes on; sometimes off, so where it's obvious that a cap should appear and it doesn't, blame my keyboard; better yet, provide some possible answers as to where the problem may lie. thx.

These can die.

2) A black Protestant Minister, (Male/27 years old)

Faith comes from within, not from without. I am also assuming that the Irish couple are Black Irish..., I wouldn't want to be called racist ;)

5) A mentally disturbed man, who carries important government secrets in his head (Male/41)

I'm not a friend of governments. Besides, if he's mentally disturbed, his secrets may be tainted and lead the government to make yet another bad decision.

6) A law-abiding salesman. He sells automatic washing machines and is also a member of the Rotary Club. (Male/51)

He's just one notch better than a used car sales man.

7) A crippled boy, paralyzed since birth. He cannot use his hands and is dependant on others. (Male/8)

I wouldn't wish this life on myself. I'd rather take my chances with reincarnation.

Nature would not allow him to survive in the wild. Humans are not that civilized. There's wisdom in nature.

10) A Teacher considered one of the best in England. (Female/32)

Probably has tenure and is protected by a powerful union. Probably gets overpaid with my tax dollars ;)

11) A Catholic Nun, supervisor of a girl's school. (Female/46)

They'll manage without her. This isn't a vote against religion, it's a vote against chastity ;)

The overall theme here is, what can you do to help joe_cavalry get to shore ;)

Come to think of it, if I throw the Irish couple into this mix, there'll be more food for me ;)

1 point

"These can die."

That's a pretty blunt way of putting it.

1 point

Axmeister's Death List:

1) A Doctor, GP, who has an addiction to drugs and is very nervous (Male/60 years old)

He's old and he's a drug addict, he could cause problems when he realizes that he has no access to whatever it is that makes him high.

3) A prostitute, but is an excellent nurse, she has already saved a drowning child and put him on another lifeboat (Female/37 years old)

Prostitution is bad and illegal. Maybe she could have a go at necrophilia while she's drowning.

4) A criminal. Charged with murder and can navigate the boat. (Male/37)

While in Britain doesn't follow the "eye for an eye" ethos. My lifeboat does. The Jew is also a member of a Rotary club so he can learn to work the lifeboat.

11) A Catholic Nun, supervisor of a girl's school. (Female/46)

When I establish my new colony of Elizabethtown (screw heading back to civilization) I shall need women to reproduce. Unfortunately catholic nuns aren't able to do this sort of thing.

13) An Irish man studying to be a pharmicist. (Male/23) And is married to...

14) An Irish woman, studying to be a nursury teacher. (Female/22)

These two are Irish. Maybe they should try swim back to Ireland.

15) An American, he is also a Neo-Nazi and thus hates the Jew. However he has a large box of food which he will throw into the sea unless he goes into the lifeboat. (Male/20)

He's an American. Think about it.

ricedaragh(2494) Disputed
1 point

So what you have left is a Minister, a salesman, a cripple, a washing machine salesman man, a literature academic, a teacher, a restaurateur and a house-wife, you'd be fucked lad, and all with no food, and nobody with any skill set to care for the sick or injured, you've also gotten rid of two of the possibly sexually active women meaning your new colony of Elizabethtown will eventually be populated with inbreds. Good luck with that chap.

1 point

Prostitution is bad and illegal.

No laws at sea. But why is prostitution bad?

When I establish my new colony of Elizabethtown (screw heading back to civilization) I shall need women to reproduce.

"Whether you eventually arrive at a desert island or a civilised land is purely chance."

These two are Irish and He's an American.

You're going to bash me for trolling on the British teacher option and yet your reason for killing half the people you decided to leave behind is pure racial prejudice? Classy.

Also, don't you have seven listed, here?

Axmeister(4322) Disputed
1 point

"No laws at sea. But why is prostitution bad?"

I'm a firm believer of sex after marriage.

"Whether you eventually arrive at a desert island or a civilised land is purely chance."

Yes, I did say that. But if I end up a civilization, I benefit anyway because I saved the most venerable.

"You're going to bash me for trolling on the British teacher option and yet your reason for killing half the people you decided to leave behind is pure racial prejudice? Classy."

You said that the British teacher wasn't a good teacher because she was British. I'm just being downright prejudiced, there's a difference.

"Also, don't you have seven listed, here?"

I'm glad someone noticed, I did it for a homourous effect

1 point

Here is my list of those who will not make it aboard the life boat. Simply based on a 50/50 chance of being rescued.

1) A Doctor, GP, who has an addiction to drugs and is very nervous (Male/60 years old)

A doctor without a fix can't do much Doctoring

5) A mentally disturbed man, who carries important government secrets in his head (Male/41)

Someone else probably knows the secrets and who cares anyway.

6) A law-abiding salesman. He sells automatic washing machines and is also a member of the Rotary Club. (Male/51)

There just doesn't seem to be any value to keeping him.

7) A crippled boy, paralyzed since birth. He cannot use his hands and is dependant on others. (Male/8)

We can't afford anyone who can't hold their own.

13) An Irish man studying to be a pharmicist. (Male/23) And is married to...

14) An Irish woman, studying to be a nursury teacher. (Female/22)

They will upset the balance of power in their favor...we can't have that.

1 point

In a real life situation, I'd have the strong swimmers tag alongside the lifeboat and periodically switch out with other people on the boat.

But that takes the fun out of the dilemma ;)

I'll come up with my list after work.

1 point

1-dies- the doctor is useless whilst suffering withdrawal

2-dies- not practically or morally special in any way and probably very annoying

3-lives- useful as a nurse and has already proved herself to be selfless by saving a child

4-dies-danger to others

5-dies-danger to others

6-lives-no reason for him to die

7-dies-no use, a pure liability

8-lives-a stay at home mum is obviously selfless and hard working and thus is useful for survival. it would be wrong to take some-ones mother.

9-lives- He can cook and it would be wrong to take someone's father

10-lives

11-dies-probably very annoying and holier- than- thou

12-dies-at 53he is a liability and taking up space for people with their whole lives ahead of them

13/14-live- both young and healthy and so are useful for survival on an island

15-lives-young enough to be reformed particularly if he has to depend on 9 through the journey. He is young and healthy and so would be useful for survival. Ii want to see his reaction to having to hand over his box of food to 9 to cook.

1 point

It's tough, and there's really no right or wrong answer. Furthermore, I'd add that floating in the water and not already knowing all these stories and statuses the reality is you'd just take the closest ones to you until you could take no more. In reality that is what I most likely would do.

But anyway:

SAVE 3) A prostitute, but is an excellent nurse, she has already saved a drowning child and put him on another lifeboat (Female/37 years old)

SAVE 8) A housewife with two children at home (Female/23)

SAVE 9) A Jewish restaraunt owner, married with 3 children at home. (Male/40)

SAVE 10) A Teacher considered one of the best in England. (Female/32)

SAVE 11) A Catholic Nun, supervisor of a girl's school. (Female/46)

SAVE 14) An Irish woman, studying to be a nursury teacher. (Female/22)

And this list acknowledges that right or wrong my tendency would be to save the women first. Which I'll admit is it's own form of sexism. It's taking chivalry further than most men are willing to do in the modern age. But that's indeed what I would do (other than my original comment higher up that I'd really just take people by proximity until the boat could handle no more). And the male Jew got on because I sense he would have yelled about the kids he had at home and that would have done it for me.

By the way, although I respect people who would choose those who could help them survive, like a criminal but who knows how to drive the boat, I also think it's pretty ugly to make all your life choices based solely on whom is most pragmatic to what you need. You're not staffing a task force, you're coping with a real time disaster while you're also in shock and dismay.

1 point

I would take:

1) A black protestant minister

2) The Prostitute

3) Mentally disturbed Man

4) A crippled boy

5) A house wife

6) A Jewish resturant owner

7) Teacher

8) Unemployed Man

9) Irish Man

10) Irish woman

I would take myself off the life boat so more can live and I don't want to live and have other inisint people die.