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21
22
man not man
Debate Score:43
Arguments:34
Total Votes:46
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 man (16)
 
 not man (18)

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The origin of ownership

Carefully consider what you know to be the root cause of the law of ownership.

The two tags are intended to represent only two of many possibilities.

man

Side Score: 21
VS.

not man

Side Score: 22
3 points

The Linguistic Relativity hypothesis has a bit to put into this. I'll call it LRH from here on.

Consider the tendency of English (and many European languages) to equate time with money. You spend it, save it, invest it, or waste it. And time information is mandatory in any of our sentences. Turkish requires one to specify if he witnessed something or if it was hearsay. These linguistic conventions practice thought processes that embed themselves in our everyday lives. "The neurons that fire together wire together."

Here's a quotation from a paper I wrote on this a year or so ago: English distinguishes the use of prepositions for containers through “in” and “on,” to put it simply. Korean, however, makes no such distinction, opting instead for prepositions that indicate tight and loose fit. Thus, an apple in a bowl would use a different preposition than a letter in an envelope. The latter is considered to have the same relationship to its container as a magnet on a refrigerator. When shown a group of pictures of tight-fit relationships with one loose-fit relationship and told to find the odd one out, Korean speakers easily chose the loose-fit picture. English speakers found it much more difficult. Additionally, pre-lingual infants raised in bilingual Korean/ English households were able to make tight- and loose-fit distinctions as well as in- and on-container distinctions. By training us to think in certain ways, language effectively limits our understanding of the world, in metaconceptual terms.

Gender attributions for inanimate objects are puzzling to English speakers, but are quite common to speakers of other languages. Groups of Spanish and German speakers were shown pictures of objects which had opposite genders in the two languages, and told to match their resemblances to pictures of people. Predictably, grammatical gender of the object was consistently correlated with the corresponding person's gender. Asked to describe a key (feminine in their language), Spanish speakers called it, “golden, intricate, little, lovely, shiny, and tiny;” German speakers called their masculine version, “hard, heavy, jagged, metal, serrated, and useful.” A bridge was “beautiful, elegant, fragile, peaceful, pretty and slender” to Germans, and “big, dangerous, long, strong, sturdy, and towering” to Spanish-speakers [Boroditsky, 2003].

Language ability is correlated with higher cognitive performance (Jerry Fodor), and its importance over physical adaptations is possibly what triggered the period of our species' explosive brain growth. There is a good chance it is the foundation for most higher thought. The LRH posits that the machinery of the language we grow up with influences our development, and the way our brain works.

When Europeans came to America, they reported that the natives were puzzled at first at the concept that one could "own" land. Some of the languages even lacked ownership language, which made communication of the idea even more difficult. So we can establish that ownership is not a given.

But this brings us to the major confound in the question of the LRH, which you've probably thought of if you read this far: Does language beget mindset, or does mindset beget language? Obviously, this is nearly impossible to establish for sure. If you respect such a thing as a Thought Experiment, run a few, and see where that takes you. Personally, I think humans are adaptive enough that it follows this pattern: In unstable (survival) situations, language TENDS to adapt to mindset. In circumstances of stability, mindset TENDS to adhere to language.

I forgot to mention Newspeak. Perfect example. Sorry.

TL;DR: We're used to thinking of ownership as a given mechanism in life because it's ingrained in the culture and language that forms our mindset. There are cultures without ownership.

Side: Man
2 points

Thank you for the contribution to this debate.

The question: “Does language beget mindset, or does mindset beget language?” is worthy of its own debate. I, along with many others have debated that question, although with different terms, for years. The conclusions of my colleagues are very diverse; we all think we are very close to an agreeable conclusion, or so we think. (lol)

You jumped ahead of me in this debate. My arguments are intended to lead to a similar question. But, I first wanted to establish the necessity of that question by the subject matter of this debate. And thus, having done so, I would have demonstrated the importance of answering such a question as yours; sometimes our minds seem more effective when we reason from what we know unto that which we are attempting to know.

If the debate endures for long enough, I will contribute my knowledge concerning your question.

Side: not man
1 point

well, what else owns it?

when you say "not man", do you mean something that is not a human or something that is not "one man"?

if it's the former, then it's pretty easy to say that ownership (being a state of mind) can easily be given to man. We take what we want and we naturally view everything as ours. so why not make it ours?

technically, ownership doesn't exist. we MADE IT UP so we know how to regulate shit. so ownership, from it's origin in definition, belongs to man.

Side: Man
1 point

Hello,

This is not a question of who owns what; the presumption of ownership is implied in the question, while the object of ownership is irrelevant. The question of the debate is the identification of the root cause of the existence of ownership.

There are several possibilities that can be asserted as root causes of the existence of ownership, I submitted two of those possibilities.

True, ownership is an abstract reality. There are evidences of ownership, yet ownership is not always self-evident.

You say “ownership doesn’t exist”, and that we “made it up”.

The beasts of the field demonstrate ownership by various behaviors. Would you care to read my argument?

Side: not man
1 point

Ownership, in my understanding, is the idea that a specific individual or group should have or use something. This concept stems from self-ownership, because you must begin with recognizing an individual as the only one with the control to use his/her own body. To deny that people control their own bodies, you must use yours to deny this fact.

I think that "ownership," comes about by the understanding that if a person creates an apple orchard, the apples belong to them. If I work for 8 hours at a restaurant, the paycheck gets sent to me and not somebody else. If I hit someone's car, I have to pay for the damages. This is because we are responsible for our actions and their effects, be them good or bad. This is why we understand that if somebody comes to your house and takes the computer you're using, they are stealing your computer.

Animals can't own things, because they're not responsible for their actions. We recognize that if an alligator chows down on your leg, it wasn't a choice the alligator made. You can't hold the alligator accountable (e.g. you take the owner of a dog to court, if you get bitten by one- not the dog). Animals don't have the ability to consider effects of their actions and compare them to others.

Side: Self-ownership
1 point

The premise of this debate seems a bit vague.

However, since there's no physical natural law defining ownership, and that it only exists as a social contract between individuals, then it's obviously derived from man/mankind/society.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "not man". God? Rabbits? Toasters? All of the above?

Side: Man
1 point

The ultimate cause or root cause of ownership is or is not the result of mankind’s devices.

The answer to this question, i.e. man or not man, will allow us to begin the process of determining the root cause of ownership. In the attempt to answer this question I am utilizing the method of elimination, beginning with the two choices I posted. If man is the cause, then the answer to the question will include man. If man is not the cause, then the answer will not include man. This is an application of the law of contradiction, not infinite negatives.

You’ve stated your position; will you provide the evidence that supports your assertions?

Side: not man
1 point

I just don't understand what you mean by the term "root cause of ownership". The concept of ownership is fairly straight forward: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership

Side: Man
1 point

Ownership is an abstract concept, and as such will most definitely have its origins in man. The distinctions between possession and ownership are important in this debate.

I will edit this argument and provide a more detailed argument at a later date (until then, can you avoid voting on this argument).

Side: Man
1 point

Anything existent arises through the operation of natural law, and as "ownership" is a language concept, not present in some languages, I think we have to conclude that "ownership" is "realized" by some process of pragmatic analysis of circumstance shaped by natural law. It is my aim to discover these circumstances, identify the natural laws at play in those circumstances, and determine the parameters and operation of "ownership" that are compelled by, and in harmony with, natural law.

In my admittedly cursory examination of extant discussions, I have not seen this approach. Should anyone know of a discussion proceeding on those premises, I would appreciate learning of it.

Side: Man
1 point

Of course it's not only man, animals are owners too. they own land, they own food and they own mates (depending on the species). These are few examples of many things animals own

Side: not man
1 point

I agree with your assertion. Would you care to provide an argument that affirms that man is not the author of ownership? Truly, man and beast both demonstrate the natural law of ownership, but what is the origin of ownership.

Side: not man
HGrey87(750) Disputed
1 point

I don't believe there is any evidence for animals expressing ownership. They don't own land, they occupy it. They don't own food, they eat it. And they don't own mates, they-- you get the idea. While concrete evidence would be hard to come by, there's no reason to believe they understand the concept of ownership.

Side: Man
1 point

Animals demonstrate behavior that is in many cases identical to that of man. The behavior of both man and beast are observably identical in instances of identical circumstances.

Two dogs will fight for a ham bone. Two men will fight for a loaf of bread. Two men will fight for a female. Two Lions will fight for a female. Two men will fight for a piece of land. Two dogs will fight for a piece of land. I suppose all of those examples represent only a cursory sample of behavior that is identical in both man and beast. We can consider it a starting point of inquiry.

Let’s begin our discourse by answering the question: Anger is predicable of both man and beast.

This will be a fun debate, perhaps long, but fun nonetheless. In fact, you may want to start a new debate.

Side: not man

The root cause of ownership is perception of need. If you (an animal or a human) perceive a need for something like terretory (in order to feed yourself for example) then your behaviour will be terretorial.

Side: not man
1 point

That's the way I would put it, beautifully said. Plus, we all know that animals were here before us too, spreading their ownership habits everywhere.

Side: not man

Unless I am mis-understanding your meaning I should think that necessity and desire are at the root of all ownership whether it may be man or beast and even plantlife.

Side: not man
1 point

I think you understand the question you answered.

The question of this debate is rather difficult to be answered. I have met only a few people who were prepared to debate this question. Most people are prepared to reasonably explain the affects of ownership and self-sovereignty, but the same people also fall short of explaining the cause of ownership. And for that reason alone have I chosen to submit the question.

Necessity and desire are sometimes consequences of ownership, but never are they the cause of ownership. For example:

I need food, and I want sirloin steak to eat. If I steal sirloins from my local butcher I have violated his/her right of ownership and the sirloins I now possess are not my property. Contrariwise, if the butcher sells sirloins to me I am now the owner of the sirloins I purchased. The butcher’s right of ownership has not been violated. The cognizance of ownership precedes the transfer of ownership.

Another way to explain why necessity and desire are not the cause of ownership:

You are a sovereign individual. As a sovereign individual you will not violate (in a perfect world) the sovereignty of another human being in your attempt to procure the necessities, and satiate your desires of life. It is self-evident that our endeavors to own something are governed by the natural law of ownership.

Again, as I stated earlier, this is a difficult subject to grasp at first. The primary difficulty is communication betwixt others. However, this is the process of learning what was otherwise not known betwixt us all.

I hope I have clarified the question at hand.

Side: not man
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
2 points

It's a difficult question, because there's no answer.

On the other side you talk about eliminating possibilities with the hopes of getting to an answer...

and so you started, man vs. not man.

fair enough,

but you skipped a step in your elimination.

the first step should have been "does ownership exist?"

Because this debate is based on faulty premise, it would go on for etenity in a loop, with no one ever really figuring anything out.

Instead of first asking who made ownership,

ask what is ownership. When you have that answer, it will become much more clear...

or just read the arguement I posted.

Side: trick question
Birdlover(3) Disputed
1 point

The origins of ownership, in contrast to for example gravity, is man. Ownership is a concept that we as humans have to outline, explain and assign meaning to aswell as agree on between ourselves in order for it to be anything. It is as such, in my opinion, a beliefsystem similar to religion. In your example of the sirloin, the man who steals the sirloin doesn't violate anything but the manmade law of ownership that assigned the butchers right to ownership of the sirloin in the first place.

Ownership is to me simply formalized possesion and formalized might. That someone posseses something is not a judgement, it's simply an observation that says: that man has got a sirloin. He will be in posession of the sirloin until someone takes it away. Then he does not posess it anylonger. The concept of ownership regulates if the transaction is legal or not, and law is as we all know certainly manmade. Without the law of ownership and concepts of property rights, no one owns anything, one only have what one have until one don't.

For example: a man is hungry and kills a bird. As he is about to eat it, someone else attempts to take it away. To keep the bird he needs to sucessfully defend it, if he does not, it is not his to eat anymore. To refeer to some natural law of ownership in this instance would be useless, and it is evident that "our endeavors to own anything" is NOT governed by some natural law of ownership.

In short, ownership is a claim and ownership only exists as long as one can defend and back up that claim.

I think we forget that the foundation of our ownership of our posessions (the TV, car etc.) is really only rooted in our states capability to uphold and enforce the law. A document of ownership is useless without some legal power that recognizes the validity of these words.

Side: Man
1 point

It's a trick question.

One could ask for example, "what is the origin of the color blue?"

Most would answer immediately it comes from light, but upon further thought, one would would say it's how our eyes' interpret a certain specrum of light.

But it's an interpretation that we make, and as evidenced by color blindness, its existance is not inherent, but a result of perception.

In that example, it's a little easier to tell how something that is not inherent, thats existance relies on some sort of perception, cannot have an origin. Blue has no origin, it's simply what we see.

The same is true for ownership.

The temptation is to say then, "well then ownership does not exist!" and you would be correct but wrong.

Just like we see the color blue, and it exists for us, so we "see" or are aware of "ownership."

But it's existance depends completely on some sentient being.

However, sentient being does not automatically = the existance of ownership.

So one could not even say that the origin of ownership is some knowledge of its existance.

All one can say is that we define certain things as being "owned," and any thief can tell you that it is a tentative definition of any thing.

So when you look at it from that perspective, the answer is pretty easy.

the origin of ownership is whatever sentient being, animal, man, what have you, claims something is owned. And that limited existance only goes so far as that person's perception. As perception is not a physical thing, "ownership" has no true origin - it comes and goes, and was never really there anyway.

So like I said, it's a trick question.

The only answer is none of the above.

"yeah, but, none of the above would mean technically not man"

no, because that answer assumes that there was something to have not been to start with...

hopefully that clears it up.

Side: trick question
1 point

The concept of ownership is primitive and started out being unconscious. Owning something is the wish to use it, to have it.

We have evolved since Neanderthals but we haven't evolved the concept of ownership much.

Go beyond what is asked. Like right now with this question. Animals have irrational and unconscious wishes to have things. Be it food or sticks. To have something is to use it. It goes deeper than that but it doesnt matter.

So, going beyond: Ownership itself exists and itself belongs to every living being. Earth is living since it provides and keeps us alive. All life is a living being.

So ownership is of all of them, all of us. No one greater. So this is the answer, totally.

Everything has everything, everything is shared. There is no money, no private land in the sense of capitalism.

Are you confused yet? Read "project venus" and go crazy then.

Confusion, anger or denial means you're enveloped into the archaic mind. The answer is understanding, the evolving with it.

Side: not man