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Apollo(1608) pic



This is going to insult a lot of people.

I was reading somewhere that Christians, on average, have an IQ 9 points lower than their atheist counterparts, 15 points lower than secular humanists. 

As Richard Dawkins is keen to point out, the majority of the scientific intelligencia is atheist, as well as other fields of study. In other words, the most educated members of the populous are disproportionatally non-christian.

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Could there be a negative correlation between intelligence and adherence to Christianity?

Would this also be true for adherents of all religions?

 

 

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3 points

rebuttal stolen from google and the democratic underground-

You have got to love our friends on DU that are into trying to convert folks to their religion - atheism! I like an Activist Site - but 24/7/365 we get "Activistic Atheism". Is this Democratic Party Underground - is this even politics?

In any case the whole discussion is bull shit in my opinion. But my atheist friends on the board will want more than my opinion! So enjoy all the stuff below stolen from a google search of the internet on this "topic".

First - In a lecture by Fritz Shafer from a website by Leadership University:http://www.leaderu.com/realri9501/bingbang2.html

and http://www.ascd.org/readingroom/edlead/9903/extpopham.h...

"Recent thinking among many leading educators suggests that there are various forms of intelligence, not just one (Gardner, 1994). A child who is born with less aptitude for dealing with quantitative or verbal tasks, therefore, might possess greater "interpersonal" or "intrapersonal" intelligence, but these latter abilities are not tested by these tests. For the kinds of items that are most commonly found on standardized achievement tests, children differ in their innate abilities to respond correctly. And some items on standardized achievement tests are aimed directly at measuring such intellectual ability."

But I do like the implication of the recent "IQ Studies Show Christians Intellectually Inferior To Atheists" DU post that we must assume that scientist are the most intelligent people. It couldn't be that more materialistically inclined people go into science because they are attracted to the naturalistic thinking, the reductionism, and because it supports their ideological views? No of course not, scientists are just the only intelligent people! What about historians? What percentage of historians are believers? OR artists, poets, English professors, why can't they be intelligent? Because they don't control things and play with numbers! Because science is the atheist er zotz religion that protects him from God so naturally he thinks that the scientist is like a priest of his er zots religion! In reality of course scientists are not the only intelligent people, and it makes more sense that the more intelligent religious people would go into theology or something related. He doesn't even bother to study that, that would be a biased group (of course science isn't'!??). If he studied theologians I bet he would find the incidence of smart practitioners who believe in God going way way up!

Now the only National Merit study I know of - the Warren and Heist, 1960 - found out that there were no differences among National Merit Scholars as to religious belief relative to the general population.

But in that little self selecting club that loves to keep out opposing views - the National Acad. of Science - we do find more folks without religion - I guess Atheists hang together?

And if you are into Mensa, that group has found the social pressure to pretend to not be religious if you are seen as smart, and has responded with intelligentchristian.org, but one should note that while website editor Graham Clinton is a person of faith as well as being a member of British Mensa, there is, however, no official connection with Mensa.

Of course the studies that debunk the bull shit idea that atheist is a result of being smart is not mentioned in the "IQ Studies Show Christians Intellectually Inferior To Atheists" DU post. http://www.nihr.org/researchreports/smartthinking.html

New study debunks clims linking Relgious Fath and Intelligence

This study of 711 students ages 15 to 16 from schools throughout England found "no evidence of a relationship, either positive or negative, between intelligence and religiosity," found Dr. Leslie Francis of the University of Wales Lampeter. For decades psychologists claimed religious beliefs meant lower intelligence, Dr. Francis noted. "The major conclusion to emerge from these data concerns the absense of a significant religionship between intelligence and attitude toward Christainity. This is significant with the findings by Fracis (1979.,1986) taken together these studies clearly challenge the research consesus formulated in the late '50s...it is now consistantly found to be the case that intelligence and religosity are uncorreleted..." Many experts consider this measure to be among the purest measures of intelligence. These students also filled out a scale of 24 questions used in 100 other studies as a reliable measure regarding their feelings about religious beliefs such as God, the Bible, Jesus, prayer, and church. The study also took into account the student¼s social class.When intelligence and religious attitudes were compared, Dr. Francis found no links: "These statistics confirm there is no significant relationship between intelligence and attitude toward Christianity."

But if you like survey's we do have the 1997 N.Y. Times News Service

report that "Several recent surveys of American college professors, ..., show that professors are almost as likely to express a belief in God as are Americans as a whole."

The scientific fraternity conducted a poll and found that on any given Sunday 46% of Ph.D. holders in science can be found in church. That compares with 47% for the general population (in Alan Lightman Origins: The Lives and World of Modern Cosmologists (Harvard University press, 1999).

Fritz Shafer, nominated for Nobel Prize in Chemistry, University of Georgia, himself a Christian: "it is very rare that a physical scientists is truly an atheist."Martin Rees at Cambridge: "The possibility of life as we know it depends upon a few basic values which are constants. And it is in some aspect remarkably sensitive to their heir numerical values. Nature does exhibit remarkable coincidences."

Charlie Towns, Nobel prize winner: "The question of science seems to be unanswered if we explore from science alone. Thus I believe there is a need for some metaphysical or religious explanation. I believe in the concept of God an in his existence."

Arthur Schewhow, Nobel prize winner from Stanford, identifies himself as a Christian, "We are fortunate to have the Bible which tells us so much about God in widely accessible terms."

John Pokingham, theoretical physicist at Cambridge, left physics to become a minister. "I believe that God exists and has made himself known in Jesus Christ."

The world's greatest observational cosmologist Alan Sandage, Caregie observatories, won a prize given by Swedish parliament equivalent to Nobel prize (there is no Nobel prize for cosmology) became a Christian after being a scientist, "The nature of God is not found in any part of science, for that we must turn to the scriptures."

Supporting Evidence: democratic underground (www.democraticunderground.com)
Bohemian(3860) Disputed
1 point

The scientific fraternity conducted a poll and found that on any given Sunday 46% of Ph.D. holders in science can be found in church.

I have to wonder if this includes professors from private religious universities, because that would significantly skew results. Many private institutions have faith requirements of their staff.

3 points

I don't think it has to do with actual religion, not directly at least.

I believe that it's just simply how people focus, someone who is religious spends time on their religion, and that takes up time from focusing on studying other things. Also, in the Science field, a religious person is not able to accept certain things, or learn certain things, because it conflicts with their religion. It's not that they wouldn't be able to understand it, or even improve it, they just automatically toss it aside as false and don't delve into it any further.

Thewayitis(4071) Disputed
1 point

And scientist of an atheist nature wouldn't toss aside anything found pertaining to origins outside of their line thinking, such God did this.

2 points

Intelligence is complicated and not measured by one standard (the, "IQ"). Focusing on just this one premise; there is a difference between faith and religion.

Religion can be an adherence to theistic doctrine, dogma, rituals and practices without actual belief.

"If I go to church every Sunday and give 10% of my earnings, I'm guaranteed an afterlife." This is ritual/religion without faith.

Practicing religion may indeed breed ignorance (not lack of aptitude) if the individual blindly follows without or free thought.

In the Christian faith, we believe that God granted us free will. There are no Bible verses that state this verbatim, however there are many that support the conclusion.

The Christian faith diverges in doctrine but not the central message:

The religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, sent by God. They believe that Jesus, by dying and rising from the dead, made up for the sin of Adam and thus redeemed the world, allowing all who believe in him to enter heaven. Christians rely on the Bible as the inspired word of God.

Our core faith does not exclude free thinking, logic and science.

Staying within the confines of religion and adherence leaves no room for individual thought.

As someone who is a person of faith, I have choices - God gave them to us - and my choices have consequences (good or bad). But I am not limited in my exploration of the mind; I can only choose to suppress it or reject my family/community and the mainstream doctrine of my faith.

Are atheists more intelligent? No. Their advantage in this argument is they are not confined by doctrine.

To "measure" an individual's "intelligence, you mus evaluate the following while considering the three types of learning:

Visual/Spacial

Verbal/Linguistic

Logical/Mathematical

Bodily/Kinesthetic

Musical/Rhythmic

Interpersonal/Intrapersonal

Styles:

Visual

Auditory

Tactile/Kinesthetic

It's reasonable to state that these qualities occur in capacity but may be restricted by adherence to faith, culture and societal norms.

Spirituality is subjective and can only be interpreted by peers and their hierarchy.

2 points

That is pure propaganda and nothing more .

Saurbaby(5581) Disputed
1 point

It's true, and it's partly because Christians life is based solely on their religion, and that's all they let rule their life. They spend their time on religion instead of other things. Not a bad thing, but it would make them not have the chance to focus on anything else like learning.

Sitara(11080) Disputed
2 points

I am sorry but I disagree. It is so wrong to act like one group of people is better or smarter than another based on beliefs. You and I have had our issues, but I most certainly do not think that I am either better or worse than you. Do you see what I am saying?

garry77777(1796) Disputed
1 point

"It's true,"

It isn't necessarily true.

"but it would make them not have the chance to focus on anything else like learning."

Well, I.Q. which was referenced in the debate title isn't supposed to have anything to do with learning, or how a person studies i.e. a child of 5 years old who hasn't learn to speak is supposed to have the same IQ when it reaches the age of 28.

Also, as two other debators have pointed out I.Q. only measures 3 forms of intelligence (of those that are known), these are: Verbal/Linguistic, Logical/Mathematical, and Visual/Spatial

Wow, you weren't wrong with the title...

But, it is a possibility. Being raised in a family where nothing is questioned, and everything is put down to God, would run some risk of stifling creative thinking.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it definitely will, but it is a chance. And the same would apply to most, if not all, derivations of theism. Certainly monotheism and polytheism. Not too sure on pantheism and deism, but they aren't massively practiced like monotheism.

ChuckHades(3197) Clarified
3 points

Downvote without a response? This isn't bloody Youtube...

1 point

I tried to vote you up, but I clicked the wrong button. I am so sorry. It really was an accident.

It's more than possible, there have been claims of the same about Blacks, about Republicans (http://stfuconservatives.net/post/16568846055), now about Christians, so pretty much everybody anybody else looks down on. I'd be surprised if the test is ever a fair test, but I don't think it's impossible, but too biased to really know.

1 point

There are some Christians that are a lot smarter than a lot of atheists like Ken Hamm. He is a Christian Scientist and he has disproved evolution and on his website it shows how it is disproved and what are the flaws of evolution and I got to say all of things he says against evolution is true.

Apollo(1608) Disputed
2 points

The fact that you believe the unfounded statements of one Christian apologist over two centuries of empirical fact and millions of scientists is special pleading. Come on, srom.

Saurbaby(5581) Disputed
1 point

He said on average, Ken Hamm is just one person.

Apollo(1608) Clarified
1 point

Can you post the link?

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Srom(12206) Clarified
2 points

Here is the website that disproves Evolution. Hope you like it

Supporting Evidence: Hasn't Evoution been proven true? (www.answersingenesis.org)
1 point

I don't find it insulting at all. Most Christians are downright stupid; rather than trying to improve their knowledge of, say, biochemistry they, instead, read a poor translation of a 2,500 year old omnibus. A Christian such as myself who reads the Bible infrequently, preferring works of non-fiction and typically antiquarian, will have a far larger knowledge-base than those who waste their time reading and re-reading the same ol' book.

But that's not to say that all Christians are dumb. Some of the stupidest people I've ever met were self-identifying atheists, whereas some of the smartest identified themselves as Christian.

openx(30) Clarified
1 point

I find that most Stereotyping and generalizations are not accurate and this is insulting. I am a born again Christian, I also have degrees in Computer Science, Psychology, and I am kicking around the idea of getting a B.S. in Chemistry in my spare time for the fun of it. So at the risk of sounding arrogant I don’t feel like I am a stupid, narrow minded, bigot simply because I am a Christian.

1 point

Here's what I learned in 5th grade science: just because two factors seem related doesn't mean that they are. Also, many studies are biased based on who's funding them. Just check out who did the research before you believe the facts

illini527(10) Clarified
1 point

Facts should be in quotation marks. They aren't always facts

While I agree that people more gullible/susceptible to ideology, and people less capable of intellectual self defense (than their atheist or even secular humanist counterparts) are on (average less) intelligent , I'd still like to get a look at those statistics, and the methodology by which they were arrived at.

Now, Richard Dawkins is an exceptional scientist, he is one of the 20th centuries greatest popular science writers, and is alsoa great man, but he is ignorant of many things.

Firstly, I'm not even going to go into the myriad problems of using I.Q. to measure a person's intelligence, many feel that I.Q. tests can only successfully determine how well a person performs in I.Q. tests. Also, as other people have pointed out, there are many forms of intelligence, what they didn;t point out was: of the known forms of human intelligence, I.Q. tests target only the following:

(1.) Verbal/Linguistic

(2.) Logical/Mathematical

(3.) Visual/Spatial

These are also conveniently the most useful form's if a person is entering a career in science.

1 point

In general more intelligent people tend to have more unconventional beliefs, they do not believe things simply because many others do.