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16
35
It is It is not
Debate Score:51
Arguments:44
Total Votes:63
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 It is (10)
 
 It is not (11)

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Great Britain is largely responsible for the problems we see in Middle East




016
Transcripts of two telephone conversations between the two leaders which took place on February 25, 2011, are made public

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi issued a 'prophetic' warning to Tony Blair that jihadists would attack Europe if his regime was allowed to collapse, phone conversations reveal.

Gaddafi's dire prediction was made in two desperate telephone calls with Mr Blair on February 25, 2011 - as civil war was engulfing Libya.

In the first call at 11.15am, Gaddafi said: "They [jihadists] want to control the Mediterranean and then they will attack Europe."

(Excerpt from Col Gaddafi's 2011 phone conversations with Tony Blair)

In the call, lasting half an hour, Gaddafi insisted he was trying to defend Libya from al-Qaeda fighters. The presence of al-Qaedas would later be superceded by the rise of the so-called Islamic State.  

It is

Side Score: 16
VS.

It is not

Side Score: 35
3 points

Many countries are! The U.S. highly included. But "the rise of the Islamic state started in 2004 under Bush. The disillusion of Sadaam's Army (with their weapons and no chance of earning a living), plus the loss of $Billions that disappeared from the Baghdad Airport (also under Bush), drop kicked the ISIL. You CAN'T blame it on the Brits as much as you can Bush. MANY had a part in it!

Side: It is
6 points

Bush mixed with Islamic eschatology created the apes. Obama let them out of the cage. Of course both were globalist cultists. That's why you see them snuggling like buddies all of the time.

Side: It is not
1 point

Bush mixed with Islamic eschatology created the apes.

It happened way before Bush, during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Here, get your silly nose out of the online thesaurus and educate yourself. It's free:-

"In the Summer of 1979, a group of powerful elites from various countries gathered at an international conference in Jerusalem to promote and exploit the idea of "international terrorism." The forum, officially known as the Jerusalem Conference on International Terrorism (JCIT), was organised by Benjamin Netanyahu, currently Israeli Minister of Finance, on behalf of the Jonathan Institute." (Ahmed 2005, p3)

"As early as June 1979, and perhaps earlier, the United States had already commenced a series of covert operations in Afghanistan designed to exploit the potential for social conflict." (Ahmed 2005, p7)

"Agence France Press reported that the United States launched a covert operation to bolster anti-communist guerrillas in Afghanistan at least six months prior to the 1979 Soviet invasion of the country." (Ahmed 2005, p7)

"Central to the US-sponsored operation was the attempt to manufacture an extremist religious ideology by amalgamating local Afghan feudal traditions with Islamic rhetoric." (Ahmed 2005, p8)

(AHMED, NAFEEZ MOSADDEQ, 2005, The War On Truth: 9/11, Disinformation And The Anatomy Of Terrorism. Moreton-In-Marsh, Gloucestershire, England: Arris Publishing Ltd.)

Side: It is
2 points

Spot on just posted a piece on that very topic .............................

Side: It is
3 points

The idiot Bush has a lot to answer for as well ,

In September 2004 the United States lifted economic sanctions leveled against the Gaddafi regime in response to its most egregious act of terror — the destruction of Pan 103 in December 1988. The Bush administration restored full diplomatic relations two years later. It is hard, looking at the bloodshed in Libya today, to reconcile the Bush administration’s rapprochement with Gaddafi with American values.

Pan Am 103 was not Gaddafi’s only act of terror: his intelligence service was behind the destruction of a TWA flight in 1974 and sponsored the Abu Nidal organizations acts of terrorism well into the 1980s — acts that included the slaughter of American children in airports in Vienna and Rome. President Reagan quite rightly called Gaddafi the “mad dog of the Middle East”.

The Bush administration cited Gaddafi’s shrewd decision to dismantle a crude nuclear weapons program and its payment of reparations to the families of the victims of Pan Am 103 to justify the opening of an American embassy in Tripoli. Neither of these empty gestures translated into a fundamental change in the nature of the Gaddafi tyranny. Gaddafi cunningly suspended the foreign terror operations but continued to terrorize the Libyan people with the confidence of a tyrant with a new lease on life. President Bush never openly condemned the repression in Libya, despite his lofty rhetoric about America’s commitment to democracy in the Middle East at the onset of the war in Iraq. The appeasement with Libya was always about petroleum, never about principle.

September 11 deepened the Bush administration’s disturbing relationship with Gaddafi. The administration secretly reached out to Libyan intelligence to cooperate in the global war on terrorism. In their memoirs, former CIA officials describe surreal meetings with Libyan intelligence chieftains whom they suspected of involvement in the destruction of Pan Am 103.

Libyan officials were only too pleased to identify, detain and torture Libyans who gravitated to Al Qaeda at the behest of the CIA. Perhaps the collaboration with Libyan intelligence seemed like a morally acceptable compromise after the slaughter of Americans on 9/11, but the secret partnership with Gaddafi served emboldened him in his secret campaign to ratchet up the repression in Libya.

If rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God, then surely compromise with tyrants smacks of a pact with the devil.

The challenge of reconciling U.S. economic and security interests with American values has always vexed Americans in high office. But Libya under Gaddafi was a simple case of moral and political discernment. The United States failed that test badly. America gained nothing of lasting value from its relationship with Gaddafi. It only bought a tyrant more time, and cost more Libyan lives.

Photo: A Libyan rebel fighter walks past graffiti depicting Muammar Gaddafi at a checkpoint near Yafran in western Libya August 5, 2011. REUTERS/Bob Strong

Side: It is
10 points

The idiot Bush has a lot to answer for as well

I agree. I think Bush planted the seed, and Obama watered it.

I also think we need to stop listening to Europe because they have no idea as to what the hell they are doing concerning well...anything. They just yap and yap. We need to ignore and ignore.

I used to argue that we should never go back to the Middle East, but now that we've mindlessly ignored that request and poked and prodded the bear, it almost forces you to police it to watch over the mess you've created.

The fact is, the dictators that policed the area are gone, which just led to voids that were filled by entities that were much worse than Sadaam Hussein, Mobarek, and Gadaffi. They used brutal force to control those areas. ISIS and the like use means that are beyond brutal and are rogue agents with no oversight or anyone to answer to.

Side: It is not
AlofRI(3294) Clarified
1 point

ISIL was near to defeat when Trump was elected! Trump literally GAVE his boss Putin, Syria on a gold platter (Trump LOVES gold).He hasn't met an authoritarian dictator that complemented him that he didn't admire. That's how HE would love to "run" America ... as the BOSS, not a servant of the people!

Side: It is
Dermot(5736) Disputed
1 point

All politicians just yap and yap American politicians are just the very same as European , different country but more or less the same tired bullshit ; I’ve given up on all politicians a long time ago as I’ve yet to meet one that didn’t want to own the world and everything in it

Side: It is
0 points

Dermot, you're clearly an intelligent fella. Why don't you do yourself a favour, put your bias aside, and actually do some research into 9/11? I'm going to link you to a couple of sites. When you get a spare half an hour, have a look at them.

http://www.journalof911studies.com/J911S/articles/

http://911research.wtc7.net/

What people were told happened is a fairy tale.

Side: It is not
Dermot(5736) Clarified
2 points

Thank you for that Nom you and I have disagreed in the past and at times it got rather nasty which I don’t take pride in , I know you’re passionate about what you believe and you are a good debater with a good knowledge of many subjects .

Thank you for the links , believe it or not I’ve studied your links in the past along with others , I post below a critique from rational wiki which addressses in depth the many points brought up have a read and tell me why you dispute the findings ?

The Journal of 9/11 Studies is a peer- crank-reviewed, online, open source pseudojournal that gives 9/11 Truthers a place to just ask questions. Some high-profile Truthers like David Ray Griffin have written articles for the journal. Ironically, in their attempt to appear "credible" and "serious," they've run a number of articles debunking the egregiously unhinged theories like Judy Wood's "space beams"[1] and stuff they've run in their own journal, like the "elephant plane" theory.[2] The journal also spawned a counter-publication debunking it called the Journal of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.[3]

In 2011, they ran out of "peer-reviewers" and sent out a request for someone to review two papers defending the "official" account of a plane hitting the Pentagon. The Screw Loose Change blog remarked:

“”Great, so after 10 years of cutting edge research and truthseeking they finally figured out what the rest of us knew that Tuesday morning. And they wonder why nobody takes them seriously?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Journalof9/11_Studies

—You Too Can Be A Peer Reviewer![4]

But now 9/11 conspiracy theories must be taken seriously, because, look, this research is "peer-reviewed!"

External links[edit]

Journal of 9/11 Studies

Journal of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Screw Loose Change's category for the journal

Chandler's Data Support a Gravitational Collapse! by Dave Thomas

Journal of 9/11 Studies caught in a few more lies, Conspiracies R Not Us

References[edit]

Jump up ↑ Scientific Critique of Judy Wood's Star Wars Beam Weapons by James Gourley

Jump up ↑ Flying Elephant or Routine Takeoff? by Jim Hoffman

Jump up ↑ http://www.jod911.com/

Jump up ↑ You Too Can Be A Peer Reviewer! - Screw Loose Change

Side: It is
xMathFanx(1722) Clarified
1 point

@Nomenclature

Dermot, you're clearly an intelligent fella. Why don't you do yourself a favour, put your bias aside, and actually do some research into 9/11?

It is because of the former that he doesn't do the latter (in the manner you suggest, that is).

I hope that has cleared up some confusion for you

Side: It is
xMathFanx(1722) Clarified
0 points

@Nomenclature

http://www.journalof911studies.com/J911S/articles/

http://911research.wtc7.net/

journalof911studies.com is a "legitimate academic journal" however the journal Science which is one of the two most prestigious science journals alongside Nature is unsound/invalid.. Got it. Thanks for the "information"..

It is an interesting world you inhabit Nom..

Side: It is
1 point

Oh, it goes back waaaaay farther than that. I mean, The UK's involvement in the region. Anyone looking at Saudi-Arabia?

Oh, a great deal more than that up north too.

Really though, there is a greater force behind these masks. There is a universal empire at work under the scenes. It can look like Spain, it can look like England, it can look like The Roman Catholic Church. It can look like China, it can even look like The United States or The Soviet Union.

People talk about The New World Order, but if such a thing were to come about, it would only be the revealing of what already was.

It'll all fall together, and all things will be revealed in God's time.

Side: It is
1 point

The disaster we see in many middle eastern countries is the sole responsibility of the affected countries themselves.

Side: It is not
1 point

The disaster we see in many middle eastern countries is the sole responsibility of the affected countries themselves.

In their naive attempt to oust the dictatorships of such dung holes as Libya, and Iraq, America and the U.K. exacerbated the crisis and turned it into a modern day holocaust.

In Putin's case he committed Russia to retaining the brutal Syrian dictator al-Assad ( who is responsible for the slaughter of 10s of 1000s of his own people and displaced millions) whilst in the process causing the biggest refugee crisis since WW2.

The bloated egos of Blair, Bush and Putin along with a clash of east-west political ideologies ensured that as a result of the 'silent majority staying too quiet for too long, these gung-ho cowboys were able to use the middle east as their own real life military playground and testing site for the effectiveness of their most modern weapons.

If the Arab countries had solved their leadership problems through fair means or foul, by peaceful or bloody revolution then foreign powers would have had no excuse to wage war on the soil of politically stable sovereign nations.

Look at what Gandhi achieved peacefully and the Vietnamese through determined and united military resistance.

Due to their inertia the Arabs are the architects of their own plight.

Side: It is not