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True or false. Religion never caused any wars, it was only people
listen, in the bible, tv, history books, or online it has never mentioned jesus christ or allah or the budha ever declaring war. it has always been people. so why does everyone blame religion for what people do.if you say religion, not people, cause wars, then name one war that jesus or god or allah or christianity started. thanks
Gandhi said it best that no one has ever tried living by true Christianity (I agree with this to the point that it means since the first century). Jesus taught love for neighbor and shunning of war and taught his followers to actually live by that. It's historically provable that the first century Christians did not join the army. If a man was in the army and became a Christian, he left the army as soon as he could.
So not all religions are a cause for war.
Religious differences only cause war when the teachings and/or practices apart from teachings are warlike in attitude, subject to greed.
The Pope would love to regain the secular power the church had in centuries past.
Do you actually think that the creator of everything had no kind of skills of predicting future clashes and wars about religion? Considering the way God wired our brains, he must be extremely derpy.
You imply that every single thought and action we make is sealed in fate? Are you saying that the actions of a man like Hitler were not due to Hitler's way of thinking, but by the way God 'wired his brain'.
I am not talking about fate, I am talking about logical predictability. Skills of picking up on multiple factors that would let you predict what will happen in the future, given enough information to go by. Have you heard of "The Mentalist"? It's just like that. But instead of Simon Baker, it is God, perceiving every possible detail.
God didn't wire Hitler's brain though, it was through genetics, evolution and all that other stuff that caused Hitler to act in the way he did. But since you are religious, and must include God behind everything, so it is safe to say that it was of God's fault that Hitler reacted and acted the way he did, due to how he was born (which was terribly out of his control anyway.)
It's not like you have a choice about being born with the mind of a psychotic murderer. It's just how your brain works, or how God made your brain work. So is hell really needed for those born on those circumstances? It is inevitable and easily predicable for a God who isn't a dumbass. And it is just pure douchebaggery to place hell on people who have problems with the brain that they were given, just as much as it is pure douchebaggery to make a hell, as it would involve some terrible, nasty thoughts to even make such a place for a moral god.
All those emotions you're familiar with when experiencing life? All chemicals. It only takes a few chemical imbalances to make you act like a lunatic. And we have some lunatics out there for proof of that.
Considering how God created us and all, would he not find it easily predictable that there would be wars? He made our brains, therefore he understands how it works. Oh my spaghetti monster, don't you think he should of been more careful with his religious scriptures? God must of failed English class...
well i dont think god has us all on puppet strings
Well how does that explain why people are born every day with mental illness, causing them to kill people, eventually sending them to hell- a place they had no way of avoiding due to mental illness?
Also, isn't God the creator of everything? That means he has the power over everything, yet he chooses not to act on anything. What doesn't make sense in this reluctance to intervene is his morality. If he has a conscious morality, he would have a drive to stop evil from happening; but when a child gets raped by a priest in a Church, he does nothing- even though he is supposed to be omnipotent- with the power to do anything- as said repeatedly in the bible.
There can only be two conclusions that can be drawn from this, which are also annoyingly contradictory:
1. He has the power to stop evil but doesn't want to- which means he is immoral, since he wouldn't give a shit about a child being raped.
2. He wants to stop evil but can't- yet in multiple verses of the bible, he is said to be omnipotent, and grant miracles. If he is all powerful, why can't stop the poor child from being molested?
Does a scientist ever interfere with his experiements? no, life is an experience, to say the experience is controlled by something other than us is just stupid, shit happens in life, you have to deal with it, sure bad things happen to good people- its called luck and theres good and bad of it.
What if that child grew up to be the next hitler if he hadnt been killed? Whats worse the death of one innocent person or the deaths of billions of innocent people? Its not in gods power to interfere because of one simple reason: free will, you seem to be missing the whole point of it.
God does not interfere with free will, otherwise we would have no free will, but this isnt even my definition of god, this is the christians definition, my definition of god is much much different than a christians, or any religion or that matter.
I dont want anyone to do harm to anybody, but its peoples choice to do what they want, and that priest will probably suffer for a long time in the afterlife in ways that we can not even imagine.
You put me in an uncomfortable question, and thus you get an uncomfortable answer.
Life is not easy, noone said its a walk in the park, but we grow and learn to love and look forward, not backwards, is it wrong that children are molested? Indeed so, very much so, do i wish it wouldnt happen? Yes i do, but thats life, fucked up shit happens that noone has the power to stop, except the person commiting the atrocity.
What if that child grew up to be the next hitler if he hadnt been killed? Whats worse the death of one innocent person or the deaths of billions of innocent people?
What if he didn't? What if he were to grow up and change the world for the better?
It's not like every child that was torchured, raped and killed was a soon-to-be Hitler.
Its not in gods power to interfere because of one simple reason: free will, you seem to be missing the whole point of it.
God does not interfere with free will, otherwise we would have no free will, but this isnt even my definition of god, this is the christians definition, my definition of god is much much different than a christians, or any religion or that matter.
I dont want anyone to do harm to anybody, but its peoples choice to do what they want, and that priest will probably suffer for a long time in the afterlife in ways that we can not even imagine.
You put me in an uncomfortable question, and thus you get an uncomfortable answer.
Life is not easy, noone said its a walk in the park, but we grow and learn to love and look forward, not backwards, is it wrong that children are molested? Indeed so, very much so, do i wish it wouldnt happen? Yes i do, but thats life, fucked up shit happens that noone has the power to stop, except the person commiting the atrocity.
Can you really blame the person with mental illness to harm people, despite how their brain is wired? It's not like they had a choice when they were born...
What if he didn't? What if he were to grow up and change the world for the better?
It's not like every child that was torchured, raped and killed was a soon-to-be Hitler.
In my eyes, theres reasons everything happens, sure its horrible for the child that he has to live with that nightmare forever haunting him, but the past is the past, i know its hard to get over, but you have to look forward, not backwards. If the child can grow up to help people cope with their problems and deal with the horrid things they have gone through, it probably wouldnt have happened unless he was molested, as bad as that sounds its true.
Or he could turn out to be a serial killer, noone knows.
According to the article you say theres no free will, then by that logic you must believe we are being guided by something, that everything we do is planned, so what is it that is planning what we do before we even make the choices that we do? I could go kill someone tomorrow, but im not going to because I do not want to kill people.
that article is rubbish, free will exists, if we go by the logic of that article then you have to say that the priest was programmed to molest the little boy, so are you certain you want to go with that logic? Because thats saying that our brains are programmed to do evil things and harm people, which they may be, but you have the power to over ride it, just like the article says: you cant rule out last second free will.
Can you really blame the person with mental illness to harm people, despite how their brain is wired? It's not like they had a choice when they were born...
their brain is not wired to harm people, i was born with alot of shit wrong with my brain that should cause me to snap and kill everyone around me because they could be trying to abduct me, take me somewhere, beat me senseless, torture me and leave me to rot in a cell that noone knows the location of.
But do i freak out? No, its called self control, staying aware of your surroundings and not letting your impulses control your life. Will i regret not killing the person who takes me and tortures me? Possibly, but in my book, noone deserves to die, and if someone does that to me, then i hope they can learn from what they did and see the wrong in their actions.
If you really want me to go in detail about pre-destination and free will, then i will, but that would be like typing an essay.
I've already shown you how predictable our minds are. Are you so twisted to the point that you find every child who has been torchured, raped and killed had deserved it?
How about the starving children in Africa, who were all born into poverty without their choice? Are all of those innocent children who died of starvation dead for a reason?
sure its horrible for the child that he has to live with that nightmare forever haunting him, but the past is the past, i know its hard to get over, but you have to look forward, not backwards.
How can you get over being killed? How can you get over the traumatic stress, leading many to suicide or to absolute psychosis? You can't just say that in front of these children's faces. There are just some things that are not mentally possible to forget, without leading to deep mental distress.
If the child can grow up to help people cope with their problems and deal with the horrid things they have gone through, it probably wouldnt have happened unless he was molested, as bad as that sounds its true.
What the actual fuck?
There have been cases of these children being murdered, or flat out physically damaged to the point of being a potato.
How dare you say "it's true."
Or he could turn out to be a serial killer, noone knows.
Seriously, what the fuck.
Not every damn child that was traumatized was going to be a Hitler, there were even some children who were raped and murdered that were mentally retarded. What the hell were they going to do? Drown people with their drooling?
According to the article you say theres no free will, then by that logic you must believe we are being guided by something, that everything we do is planned, so what is it that is planning what we do before we even make the choices that we do? I could go kill someone tomorrow, but im not going to because I do not want to kill people.
Learn the science dude.
It is all "planned" and wired within our heads, within our biology. Chemicals control how we act and react, and it is our brain which produces these chemicals. By scanning how our brain works, we can understand how people distribute chemicals in their brains- because everyone distributes them differently.
I could go kill someone tomorrow, but im not going to because I do not want to kill people.
Good for you. The way your brain works prevents it.
that article is rubbish, free will exists, if we go by the logic of that article then you have to say that the priest was programmed to molest the little boy, so are you certain you want to go with that logic? Because thats saying that our brains are programmed to do evil things and harm people, which they may be, but you have the power to over ride it, just like the article says: you cant rule out last second free will.
You are acting completely irrational. Have you fully read that article? If you have, I suggest you read it again. The proof is right in front of you. The hypothetical priest was not programmed to rape the hypothetical boy. His brain just has an imbalance of chemicals, causing him to act in a aggressive, brazen way, therefore causing him to drop rational thought, and go after the boy. His 'choice' was made predictable by finding out how he acts, by taking a look in his brain, and seeing how frequently he distributes a certain kind of chemical to make him act in such a way.
their brain is not wired to harm people, i was born with alot of shit wrong with my brain that should cause me to snap and kill everyone around me because they could be trying to abduct me, take me somewhere, beat me senseless, torture me and leave me to rot in a cell that noone knows the location of.
Oh my freaking spaghetti monster. Think deeper.
Just because your brain was "messed up" it clearly wasn't messed in the same way of a cereal killer. It takes an issue to make someone feel like killing someone, but it takes a whole lot of different issues to nullify their reluctance, and cause them to act upon that want to kill.
I suggest you learn about psychology, before debating about it.
But do i freak out? No, its called self control, staying aware of your surroundings and not letting your impulses control your life. Will i regret not killing the person who takes me and tortures me? Possibly, but in my book, noone deserves to die, and if someone does that to me, then i hope they can learn from what they did and see the wrong in their actions.
Did you know that there are brain chemicals that control self-control? Did you know that in cereal killers, that chemical is lacking, due to a faulty psychology?
If you really want me to go in detail about pre-destination and free will, then i will, but that would be like typing an essay.
I just want you to understand how much power psychology has over every aspect of our actions.
Well dont be sorry for cussing, idc, im sorry your grandpa passed away.
Anyways, i never said they deserved it i said it happens for a reason, what that reason is, who knows.
Well youre an atheist so i dont expect you to understand what i mean, remember, i believe we live on after death.
If youre murdered, then it doesnt partain to a life experience, because you wont be here anymore, as for becoming a vegetable, humans who keep people alive on machines are trying to play god by keeping them alive, let them go.
No my brain doesnt prevent it, i could easily kill someone, shit, when i was younger i always wanted to be a hitman to take out corrupt leaders.
you said "It is all "planned" and wired within our heads, within our biology."
then you said "The hypothetical priest was not programmed to rape the hypothetical boy"
so which is it?
Your brain is the most powerful thing on the planet, while i know there is a point of snapping where you literally cant control yourself, thats different than having self control when youre mind is able to. If you snap and kill people, you have no control over that at all when youre "snapped" so that shouldnt pertain to the situation either.
Did you know you can heal your mind of impurities like the one you stated?
Anyways, i never said they deserved it i said it happens for a reason, what that reason is, who knows.
Is that all you have to say as an answer? "They died for a reason because who knows"? What possible meaning can be placed higher in value than leaving them alive? What is the determination of the value between these outcomes? If it is based on morality, wouldn't it of been more of a valuable outcome for the child to not be raped, instead of having him raped for reasons of less meaning and morality?
Well youre an atheist so i dont expect you to understand what i mean, remember, i believe we live on after death.
I do understand what you mean, but what you mean is incorrect, or partially false. I wasn't always an atheist you know.
If youre murdered, then it doesnt partain to a life experience, because you wont be here anymore, as for becoming a vegetable, humans who keep people alive on machines are trying to play god by keeping them alive, let them go.
If you're murdered, it is a natural part of reality. If you see it as something that has a meaning behind it, you are going to have a bad time. Because, what good can become of a child getting torchured, raped and murdered than the other outcome of him not being torchured, raped and murdered? He will just end up making everyone depressed and cause his parents to commit suicide making everyone more depressed. What the hell is this reason supposed to be if it just causes more pain for everyone when it doesn't have to?
No my brain doesnt prevent it, i could easily kill someone, shit,
Self-control is not a magical thing that hovers above all other values; it is a chemical in the brain in which some people are lacking of, due to psychological complications. People who are noted serial killers lack this self-control which make them able to murder without reluctance. Face it; you had self-control, more so than a serial killer, which made you different from them.
when i was younger i always wanted to be a hitman to take out corrupt leaders.
Almost everyone does, including me. It is natural to have such hate for an evil abusive person.
you said "It is all "planned" and wired within our heads, within our biology."
then you said "The hypothetical priest was not programmed to rape the hypothetical boy"
so which is it?
I was just denying your use of the word "programmed." Yes, the priest was "programmed" in a way, but not exactly. He was messed up in the brain, causing events to coincide as they did.
Did you know you can heal your mind of impurities like the one you stated?
Meditation, like ive said before, is key to life.
They can't do shit against physical brain deformities; only minor problems caused by stress. Meditation is just a fancy word for the relaxation of stress. Stress is a causer of many sicknesses. The relieving of stress stops these minor sicknesses, but not the serious ones. That's why we have medication, doctors and hospitals. We can't survive just by meditation.
my links always go to a 404 even after i read them >:O whatever, lol
Well im going to be using my beliefs in this argument, and in my beliefs time is infinite, and we can stand outside of time, so we can know the future, so in a sense i believe we are on a divine plan kind of, so the reason i say who knows, is because there may be a reason for it, but we do not know, we have to find out.
Define a valuable outcome. Living in a bubble your whole life and never experiencing tragedy? thats not valuable to me.
What i meant for the murdered part was it wouldnt help the child because hed be dead anyways, so i mixed my words up there.
It doesnt have to make everyone depressed, his parents dont have to commit suicide, and he can become a very very strong willed person in life, which in my book, a heavy price to pay for a good value such as that. It doesnt have to cause pain for anyone, thats peoples choice to feel pain and not move on and be stuck in the past.
Well i wouldnt like it, but trust me, i could very much easily kill someone and feel remorse, but never show it, because things happen, i wouldnt dwell on it, i would just keep moving along like nothing ever happened.
But the priest knows its wrong, he had the choice to not commit the molestation, but he chose to because he forced himself to believe in some way that what he was doing was right, see the power of belief? If i fully believe killing someone is no big deal, then it will be no big deal.
Meditation is not just a fancy word, ive posted articles that meditation literally changes your brain and causes you to develop feelings of empathy and positive behavior.
Medication? oh please, the side effects of medication is what causes people to snap in the first place, "oh this medication doesnt make you feel right? here take this one. Oh that one made you feel worse? here try this one. Oh this one made you agitated? Here try this one." That will seriously, SERIOUSLY fuck someones brain up
Well im going to be using my beliefs in this argument, and in my beliefs time is infinite, and we can stand outside of time, so we can know the future, so in a sense i believe we are on a divine plan kind of, so the reason i say who knows, is because there may be a reason for it, but we do not know, we have to find out.
If we are going to logically debate, I suggest pushing some beliefs aside. It's practically impossible to debate with personal beliefs.
Define a valuable outcome. Living in a bubble your whole life and never experiencing tragedy? thats not valuable to me.
If tragedy is how you would like to call and dismiss suffering, torture, rape, depression, disease, all that sick stuff, then you're sadistic. Would heaven be too boring for your needs? Happiness should be the only outcome. Children having to suffer pain is no outcome I would even think about, but if you want that to happen, I suggest speaking to a doctor?
What i meant for the murdered part was it wouldnt help the child because hed be dead anyways, so i mixed my words up there.
Dead anyways? What about considering the life the child could of had? How about the suffering the child had to face before returning to the Earth?
It doesnt have to make everyone depressed, his parents dont have to commit suicide, and he can become a very very strong willed person in life, which in my book, a heavy price to pay for a good value such as that. It doesnt have to cause pain for anyone, thats peoples choice to feel pain and not move on and be stuck in the past.
Do you think it was my choice whether or not to feel depressed after the death of my Grandfather? No sane human would ever simply choose to feel pain from emotional wounds. As much as you would jolt and cry out in the pain of being cut, you would be emotionally wounded by the loss of someone you held dear- leading to depression. I am depressed as hell after my Grandfather died, but the only things keeping me from taking my own life was the knowledge of how he lived life to the full, and died peacefully in his sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if the parents of the child who was raped, tortured and killed commit suicide straight away. The gaping emotional cuts left of the memory of a child who was forced to do things they didn't understand, and be lead to experience immense pain before laying to waste would be unbearable.
Such pain is unnecessary, both in morality and existence. The only logical reason such a thing would happen is through natural and realistic causes and events.
Well i wouldnt like it, but trust me, i could very much easily kill someone and feel remorse, but never show it, because things happen, i wouldnt dwell on it, i would just keep moving along like nothing ever happened.
Well, that's just you. But you are ignoring what I said about chemicals in the brain. There is a chemical which I presume is active in you now, making you reluctant to kill anything. Yes, you can say that you can murder someone, but in all sanity you won't. In serial killers, this chemical is lacking in their brain due to deformities, making them kill people. Why? Because they are insane. You lost one of my arguments again by not directly quoting my arguments. Next time, quote them directly. By that, I mean use the black words and write your rebuttal underneath them. It makes things a whole lot easier and organized.
But the priest knows its wrong, he had the choice to not commit the molestation, but he chose to because he forced himself to believe in some way that what he was doing was right, see the power of belief? If i fully believe killing someone is no big deal, then it will be no big deal.
The priest has read the bible, and is clear with his morals. So he knows well for sure that molestation is a messed up thing. But he has a brain condition called pedophillia; something he cannot control, as much as an Alzheimer's patient can't control their condition. Things could of been alright, but since the pedophile also has psychological problems, concerning things like self-control. Belief is just a factor, or an ailment of this chemical-of-self-control deficiency.
Meditation is not just a fancy word, ive posted articles that meditation literally changes your brain and causes you to develop feelings of empathy and positive behavior.
Breathing deeply to obtain more oxygen, relieving stress and tension and generally relaxing the body seems to have that affect. But if you talk so much about meditation, why do you insist on proclaiming how much you don't care if you murder someone, or if a child was suffering.
Medication? oh please, the side effects of medication is what causes people to snap in the first place, "oh this medication doesnt make you feel right? here take this one. Oh that one made you feel worse? here try this one. Oh this one made you agitated? Here try this one." That will seriously, SERIOUSLY fuck someones brain up
Side effects? Just because medication isn't perfect or fully developed doesn't mean it is useless. Are you seriously this misinformed? You are just describing the misuse of medication.
We would thoroughly be all dead right know had we not been vaccinated from Small Pox and all those other nasty diseases. Have you ever suffered a major injury? If they had not placed anesthetics on those wounds, you wouldn't even survive the surgery, due to shock and a super-increased heart rate, leading to blood loss. Do not disrespect the legend of medication. It has actually saved millions, if not billions of lives; more than meditation can ever dream of.
Meditation is just relaxation. All those bonuses of "happiness and well being" are the result of stress relief. You nutter.
And thats great, but your views have been trodden upon you by centuries of standards that have never changed, and i oppose these standards, i dont dispute scientific fact, but i do dispute societal and cultural beliefs.
I cant teach anyone anything, i can only make them think.
Chemicals that dictate how we act in an environment? These chemicals sound alot like how we are raised, and the situations we grow up in, and years and centuries of living in a hostile environment has bred hostile actions.
Youre seriously going to sit there and tell me that we evolved to have chemicals that cause harm to other living beings when nature is a state of peace? Sure, animals kill each other, but its because they have to, in order to survive, killing someone else, hurting other people, does not help you survive. The only way harming another human being helps you survive is if they put your life in harm.
To bring about harm on something else for no other reason than sick sadistic twisted issues, is due to the influence thats around us, mother nature would not have programmed us to mindlessly kill each other.
and i realize that the brain can become screwy through the actions of others, but that is their fault what they do, not the victims fault, and thus the victim who turns out to be a serial killer is his fault, but at the same time, it is the fault of others.
You speak of humans as if they are worth shit. We aren't. We are just apes who have gained the benefits of evolution giving us advanced, high-ordered minds. We are all animals. We have the remnants of our ancestors; the remnants of a tail, as observed in our coccyx, the remnants of wisdom teeth; the teeth we evolved to eat through plants when we used to have a herbivore diet millenia ago. Not all animals kill for survival. There has been wars between ape tribes. There has been psychotic animals, tigers with down syndrome, some animal species killing purely for fun. We aren't singled out as especially 'evil.'
Humans are just taking advantage of their advanced brains to gain benefits from all the other animals that didn't evolve as well.
And a brain does not only become 'screwy' through the actions of others; it can become screwy from birth, without the choice of the person being born.
But in this hypothetical world without religion, there would be less reasons to fight.
Religion is such a deep matter. People are born to not question it. If there was no religion, there would be no separation of belief, or wasted money on churches and religious organizations. People just don't simply find things to fight about. Global alliances, countries relying on other countries to make their produce, each country no longer separated by faith. No 9/11; no terrorism; no war on terrorism. No Jew/Muslim conflicts. No Christian/Muslim conflicts. Just people more united together with common beliefs; higher understandings of how the world works; higher IQ's equals to wiser government and population = less wars.
"Religion is such a deep matter. People are born to not question it."
People are born to question it. Look how many atheists there are and they believe that because they questioned religion they rose above it. In the Bible God asks man to test him many times and the Israelites who were to be a religious people questioned God as much as the common atheists.
I was talking about the fact that he assumed that Jesus would declare religious wars
It's deeper than that.
But anyway, isn't Jesus God? Doesn't that mean that when God went full genocidal in the OT, Jesus was somewhat related? Perhaps condoning, of God's immoral actions?
and he also assumed that Jesus never existed.
You need to get the celestial tea pot in your head. A magic man who can turn water into alcohol simply doesn't happen nowadays- therefore he must carry the burden of proof.
Also any war that didn't involve religion is an 'atheistic war' also we could say that any war caused by lack of religion is the fault of atheism.
So World War I and World War II, as well as many others, are atheistic wars.
You're joking right? So they were all actually fighting over who disbelieved in God the most? Ha ha... no. Atheists were basically non-existent at that time. Just because there is a war that wasn't about religion doesn't mean it has to be about Atheists.
World War I started with an assassination of an important Archduke, which lead to a political mess which eventually turned into World War I.
YES, definitely all of the Atheist's fault! Their disbelief in God caused THIS!
Oh, and Germany invading Poland in WWII; definitely all those darn Atheist's fault! Hitler's wish to take over Poland to expand his empire was totally because he loved Atheism so much! Damn Atheists!
It's not like the 9/11 was about religion (and the war on terrorism that ensued.)
"But anyway, isn't Jesus God? Doesn't that mean that when God went full genocidal in the OT, Jesus was somewhat related? Perhaps condoning, of God's immoral actions?"
No, Jesus is not God. And when did God go "full genocidal" in the Old Testament?
"You need to get the celestial tea pot in your head. A magic man who can turn water into alcohol simply doesn't happen nowadays- therefore he must carry the burden of proof."
How many Julius Ceasar's do you see nowadays? None. According to you that means he never existed.
"You're joking right? So they were all actually fighting over who disbelieved in God the most? "
When did I say that?
"Atheists were basically non-existent at that time. Just because there is a war that wasn't about religion doesn't mean it has to be about Atheists."
Just because there was a war that involved religion, doesn't mean it was caused by religion.
"World War I started with an assassination of an important Archduke, which lead to a political mess which eventually turned into World War I."
The assassin wasn't religious, he didn't know the religious guidelines of "do not murder" therefore his lack of religion (atheism) caused WWII.
"YES, definitely all of the Atheist's fault! Their disbelief in God caused THIS!"
You try make a mockery of my argument? Imagine how funny it is to me when I read all the 'religion causes war' arguments your fellow atheists make.
"Oh, and Germany invading Poland in WWII; definitely all those darn Atheist's fault! Hitler's wish to take over Poland to expand his empire was totally because he loved Atheism so much! Damn Atheists!"
Yup, Hitler's lack of religion caused him to go batsy against the Jews. No true Christian would want to commit mass genocide.
The people included in religion who caused wars did so because of Religion. Religion is a bloody deep matter, which makes it quite easy to start a war over.
No, Jesus is not God.
Every Christian should know this.
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)
Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”
And when did God go "full genocidal" in the Old Testament?
You should of known this too... or have they really cherry-picked the bible for you?
Deuteronomy 2: 33-34 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite - as the LORD your God has commanded you.
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Joshua 8:24-26
And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword.
So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand - all the people of Ai.
For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
Joshua 6:20-21 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.
That, of course, is where the Sunday School lesson finishes - all very rousing, epic stuff to be sure. But here's how the story continues, in the very next verse (Joshua 6:21):
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
How many Julius Ceasar's do you see nowadays? None. According to you that means he never existed.
How many magical fairies have you seen flying around today?
When did I say that?
When you decided that Atheists start wars.
And it's what Religious people do though. They're doing it right now in fact.
That's the definition of Religion starting wars. They don't require a Hitler to invade poland, or an assassination of an Archduke to stir the relations of nations. They just need some minor clashes, and they're at it- killing each other with sticks and stones.
Just because there was a war that involved religion, doesn't mean it was caused by religion.
A whole group of people, fighting over how such and such disgraced Muhammad and Allah and decided to riot/blow people up about it. Yes, definitely "partially involved religion."
Hitler, invading Poland. "It was because Poland disgraced our nothing."-- Said no one ever.
There is a difference between realistic matters like an assassination of an archduke sparking a war, and of disgracing a God to start a religious war.
Are you saying that everything like the relations between nations/economy/politics are all Atheist stuff? Damn Shaniqua.
The assassin wasn't religious, he didn't know the religious guidelines of "do not murder" therefore his lack of religion (atheism) caused WWII.
Did you know he actually had a reason to take him down religious or not? He shot him to save his country from being taken over as part of his empire. A subtle fight for independence. And you'd know how far people would go to receive independence. "Cough" USA "cough".
You try make a mockery of my argument? Imagine how funny it is to me when I read all the 'religion causes war' arguments your fellow atheists make.
Because, clearly, if there was no religion, there would still be wars of religion, because... when did religion cause it?
Yup, Hitler's lack of religion caused him to go batsy against the Jews. No true Christian would want to commit mass genocide.
In heaps of his writings and speeches, he claimed to be doing the work of the Lord.
Not to mention Hitler was mentally ill, and was under the illusion that what he was doing was right. He was born to hate the Jews, after how he experienced them in his childhood. No Atheist would murder humanity in the masses. It's naturally wired in our brains not to murder someone, as it would clearly go against our survival. Apes don't murder their own tribe, as much as humans who lived away from/before the bible didn't kill each other for no reason. Reading the above verses of God's Genocide, I wouldn't be surprised why his positive views of Christianity influenced this.
"The people included in religion who caused wars did so because of Religion. Religion is a bloody deep matter, which makes it quite easy to start a war over."
Religion was never the cause of any war, it merely got involved with wars.
"Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)
Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”"
I gave you a very brief, blunt answer to a very brief, blunt question. If you were looking for a philisophical essay on whether Jesus is God or not, then you've asked the wrong person.
"You should of known this too... or have they really cherry-picked the bible for you?
Deuteronomy 2: 33-34 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite - as the LORD your God has commanded you.
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Joshua 8:24-26
And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword.
So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand - all the people of Ai.
For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
Joshua 6:20-21 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.
That, of course, is where the Sunday School lesson finishes - all very rousing, epic stuff to be sure. But here's how the story continues, in the very next verse (Joshua 6:21):
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."
Those were not acts by God, those were violences commited by men endorsed by God. Anyway, those nations were full of sinners who had turned away from God.
Here, I found a website that can explain it all for you.
"How many magical fairies have you seen flying around today?"
You're comparing Julius Ceaser to a magical fairy?
"When you decided that Atheists start wars.
And it's what Religious people do though. They're doing it right now in fact.
That's the definition of Religion starting wars. They don't require a Hitler to invade poland, or an assassination of an Archduke to stir the relations of nations. They just need some minor clashes, and they're at it- killing each other with sticks and stones."
When I claimed that atheism starts wars I was being sarcastic. And I'ld like you to provide some evidence of these religious wars started by "minor clashes".
"A whole group of people, fighting over how such and such disgraced Muhammad and Allah and decided to riot/blow people up about it. Yes, definitely "partially involved religion."
I believe you are referring to the Islamic religion, of which I am in no position to speak for.
"Hitler, invading Poland. "It was because Poland disgraced our nothing."-- Said no one ever.
There is a difference between realistic matters like an assassination of an archduke sparking a war, and of disgracing a God to start a religious war.
Are you saying that everything like the relations between nations/economy/politics are all Atheist stuff? Damn Shaniqua."
No, I'm saying relations between nations, economics and politics are what causes wars, not religion.
"Did you know he actually had a reason to take him down religious or not? He shot him to save his country from being taken over as part of his empire. A subtle fight for independence. And you'd know how far people would go to receive independence."
I rest my case, people do not start wars because of whether they believe there is a God or not.
"Cough" USA "cough"."
Haha, blow below the belt. Why don't you join one of my nationalist debates so I can grind your face into the mud.
"Because, clearly, if there was no religion, there would still be wars of religion, because... when did religion cause it? "
I've no idea. As far as I was concerned there haven't been any religious wars.
"In heaps of his writings and speeches, he claimed to be doing the work of the Lord. "
Which explains exactly why he had all the statues of Jesus removed from school and replaced with pictures of himself.
"Not to mention Hitler was mentally ill, and was under the illusion that what he was doing was right. He was born to hate the Jews, after how he experienced them in his childhood. No Atheist would murder humanity in the masses.Reading the above verses of God's Genocide, I wouldn't be surprised why his positive views of Christianity influenced this."
Hitler believed in a scientific theory that was very popular in the early 19th centruy called Eugenics. This was based on Darwin's recently concluded theory of Evolution. Eugenics stated that due to genetics not all humans were equal, those of lower classes and inferior races should be 'voluntarily sterilised' while those of a preferred status should be 'encouraged to breed'. Hitler believed that Germany's genetics had been tainted which is why he ordered the deaths of Jews, cripples, homosexuals and foreign people as he was trying to cleanse the gene pool.
" It's naturally wired in our brains not to murder someone, as it would clearly go against our survival"
That makes no sense, if resources become scarce and cannot support all humanity (Pre-WWII Germany was going from an economic crisis) then it is within our natural instinct to remove competitors to save ourselves.
Religion was never the cause of any war, it merely got involved with wars.
It sure as hell gave people a good reason to start wars.
I gave you a very brief, blunt answer to a very brief, blunt question. If you were looking for a philisophical essay on whether Jesus is God or not, then you've asked the wrong person.
Criticizing the length of my rebuttal will not make it false.
Those were not acts by God, those were violences commited by men endorsed by God. Anyway, those nations were full of sinners who had turned away from God.
Here, I found a website that can explain it all for you.
Ah it makes me smile that you answered it this way. I was expecting it. Now I will pull the Hitler card... but at the mention of his name, you would already understand what I am talking about.
1) God never killed anyone, the humans he ordered did.
2) Hitler never killed anyone; the Nazis he ordered did.
Ergo God is no different to Hitler...
You're comparing Julius Ceaser to a magical fairy?
Nope. I'm comparing Jesus to a magical fairy.
He was magical after all- turning water into alcohol... and such...
When I claimed that atheism starts wars I was being sarcastic. And I'ld like you to provide some evidence of these religious wars started by "minor clashes".
Do you know how easy riots can start at the slightest disrespect of a prophet.
Damn, those riots are happening right now.
A similar thing got an Ambassador and an Author killed/almost killed.
I believe you are referring to the Islamic religion, of which I am in no position to speak for.
It's still part of religion. A major religion at that.
We are debating about religion, and how they start wars, are we not?
No, I'm saying relations between nations, economics and politics are what causes wars, not religion.
Are you sure? Because before you said it was all Atheism's fault because Atheism seems to be everything that is not religion.
I rest my case, people do not start wars because of whether they believe there is a God or not.
So the Crusades would still of happened, even without religion?
And the terrorist bombers included in the 9/11 would still take their own lives, even without religion/ the belief of a Heaven, 72 virgins and gratification from their God after they died?
Totally worth it.
Haha, blow below the belt. Why don't you join one of my nationalist debates so I can grind your face into the mud.
Already have, but I never seemed to get a reply, after my argument about the genocide of Aboriginals in Tasmania...
Don't get me wrong, I think Britain is a lovely place, and I know how unenlightened people of the past tend to be. But genocide- or even the involvement of promoting Genocide- does leave quite a red stain in a country's history.
I've no idea. As far as I was concerned there haven't been any religious wars.
Let me introduce you to; The Muslim Conquests, The Crusades, The Reconquista, and The French Wars of Religion...
Read into them, if you must.
Which explains exactly why he had all the statues of Jesus removed from school and replaced with pictures of himself.
Yes; he strongly believed he was a Messiah...
Hitler believed in a scientific theory that was very popular in the early 19th centruy called Eugenics. This was based on Darwin's recently concluded theory of Evolution. Eugenics stated that due to genetics not all humans were equal, those of lower classes and inferior races should be 'voluntarily sterilised' while those of a preferred status should be 'encouraged to breed'. Hitler believed that Germany's genetics had been tainted which is why he ordered the deaths of Jews, cripples, homosexuals and foreign people as he was trying to cleanse the gene pool.
Of course, although hate and mental psychosis influenced him to take such actions.
But it's a bit odd, because Jews are genetically superior, both in physique and intelligence. Especially the Ashkenazi Jews who are of German decent. It is true that there are genetic inferiorities in people existing in populaces, but I don't think we should kill them or sterilize them. Hell no. Only the mind of a psychopath would murder people to that extent.
That makes no sense, if resources become scarce and cannot support all humanity (Pre-WWII Germany was going from an economic crisis) then it is within our natural instinct to remove competitors to save ourselves.
Empathy, the emotion of inter-subjectivity and 'morality,' places you inside of their shoes. It's unclear where Empathy came from, but it sure as hell supports the survival of Humanity as a whole. Apes are known to have bonds with each other, even displaying affection through hugs. It is just a thing that allows us to share food, or help someone in pain. It's odd, but it exists in Apes, but they are just (as you believe) mere 'Godless' animals.
Also the fear of consequence. The uncertainty of whether people would find out, and what they would do to you if they did. What would happen if you tried to kill that individual? Would they survive? Fight back? Call for help?
Each outcome would come at a shocking disadvantage.
And Empathy would sure as hell prevent this, but there are people that are lacking this Empathy, or the right amount of chemicals, therefore making them kill, with little fear of consequence.
Chimpanzees do, escpecially when their expanding their own territory
Aha, but they are just Neighboring groups. Other chimps that are in the way of their territory. Humans have done this countless times, expanding their borders, warring with other groups that threaten to go against them and their expansion of territory/ control of the land. It's one of the main reasons people start wars. To take control of land for more space to populate and resources to give them a greater chance of survival.
I've yet to find anyone who kills other people "for no reason".
I didn't mean it like that.
I meant that people who are part of successful civilizations away from/ or before the existence of the Bible didn't seem to act in a mindless, immoral way; they seemed to get along well without the Bible, because they never really needed it in the first place.
"It sure as hell gave people a good reason to start wars."
My religion says "do not kill", your religion says "do not kill". Ergo, we declare war on each other because we follow different religions?
"Criticizing the length of my rebuttal will not make it false. "
I merely stated that I'm not in the position to declare whether Jesus is God or not.
"Ah it makes me smile that you answered it this way. I was expecting it. Now I will pull the Hitler card... but at the mention of his name, you would already understand what I am talking about.
1) God never killed anyone, the humans he ordered did.
2) Hitler never killed anyone; the Nazis he ordered did.
Ergo God is no different to Hitler..."
God is a deity, Hitler wasn't. Ergo, God is different from Hitler.
"Nope. I'm comparing Jesus to a magical fairy.
He was magical after all- turning water into alcohol... and such..."
Magic, is doing things that cannot be explained. Supernatural powers granted by God is not a form of 'magic'. Likewise, scientists using science to do things the common man cannot explain is also not a form of 'magic'.
Anyway, I stated that Jesus is as real as Julius Ceasar or any other famous Roman, we only know about them and their existents from records and documents that have lasted throughout history.
"Do you know how easy riots can start at the slightest disrespect of a prophet.
Damn, those riots are happening right now.
A similar thing got an Ambassador and an Author killed/almost killed."
Any sources? Or actual evidence?
"It's still part of religion. A major religion at that.
We are debating about religion, and how they start wars, are we not? "
As I said, I am not a muslim. I cannot speak for Islam. You can't just make me accountable for all their faults just because I'm religious.
"Are you sure? Because before you said it was all Atheism's fault because Atheism seems to be everything that is not religion."
Sarcasm...
"So the Crusades would still of happened, even without religion?"
Yes, they would have just found another reason to get people to invade the Middle East. Probably the 'there's treasure there lets plunder it' way of thinking that most people actually joined the Crusades for.
"And the terrorist bombers included in the 9/11 would still take their own lives,"
Once again I cannot speak for Islam. Unless you're one of those who believes muslims seek to kill us all, I suggest you stick to Christianity, as I'm not going to argue for a religion I don't believe in.
"Yes; he strongly believed he was a Messiah..."
Hence, he wasn't a Christian.
"
Of course, although hate and mental psychosis influenced him to take such actions.
But it's a bit odd, because Jews are genetically superior, both in physique and intelligence. Especially the Ashkenazi Jews who are of German decent. It is true that there are genetic inferiorities in people existing in populaces, but I don't think we should kill them or sterilize them. Hell no. Only the mind of a psychopath would murder people to that extent."
One second you're saying Hitler slaughtered the Jews because he thought it was doing God's work, then when I argue he did it for what he believed where scientific causes, you suddenly claim he was a psychopath?
"Empathy, the emotion of inter-subjectivity and 'morality,' places you inside of their shoes."
Which derives from the Christian "do unto others as you would have do unto you".
"Apes are known to have bonds with each other, even displaying affection through hugs. It is just a thing that allows us to share food, or help someone in pain. It's odd, but it exists in Apes, but they are just (as you believe) mere 'Godless' animals."
How are apes "Godless animals"? Since they were created by God?
"Also the fear of consequence. The uncertainty of whether people would find out, and what they would do to you if they did. What would happen if you tried to kill that individual? Would they survive? Fight back? Call for help? "
That's just taking it completely out of context. In WWII Nazi-Germany, the government were the ones killing people, who would the Jews have called out for help for?
And most likely if they did fight back, they would end up killing you.
"Aha, but they are just Neighboring groups. Other chimps that are in the way of their territory. Humans have done this countless times, expanding their borders, warring with other groups that threaten to go against them and their expansion of territory/ control of the land. It's one of the main reasons people start wars. To take control of land for more space to populate and resources to give them a greater chance of survival."
Exactly, while we may take care of our own family, when resources become scarce humans follow the natural instinct of eliminating other humans to gain more resources.
"I meant that people who are part of successful civilizations away from/ or before the existence of the Bible didn't seem to act in a mindless, immoral way; they seemed to get along well without the Bible, because they never really needed it in the first place."
Once again, please provide evidence for your claim. How could you possibly know that before the existence of the Bible all humanity worked togethor in harmony?
I have defeated you. You should convert right now if you want to retain your place as a logical human being.
My religion says "do not kill", your religion says "do not kill". Ergo, we declare war on each other because we follow different religions?
I don't have a religion, ergo I have no magical being to fight for. But people seem to take the responsibility upon themselves to fight for their religion and it has clearly happened too much.
I merely stated that I'm not in the position to declare whether Jesus is God or not.
Seriously? I just gave you all the proof you would need.
God is a deity, Hitler wasn't. Ergo, God is different from Hitler.
Are you serious?
So that somehow magically justifies his genocide on innocent children men and women. I suggest you think about this a bit more, and just how wrong you are. You do understand that God senselessly murdered people- even though he is supposed to be a moral being. Tap into your logical side here, and ask yourself whether your God out of all the religions in the world, would do such a thing; would commit evil genocide. If you seem to hate Hitler for his genocide, why aren't you taking any issues with God and his contradictory evil actions. I've given you some of the verses out of the bible, have you read them? The first question I asked before I became Atheist was "Is this really what God would of done?"
Because seriously, no pure being would do such a thing.
Btw I didn't mean God was Hitler in a literal sense. I just said he was as insane, evil and genocidal as Hitler is.
Magic, is doing things that cannot be explained. Supernatural powers granted by God is not a form of 'magic'. Likewise, scientists using science to do things the common man cannot explain is also not a form of 'magic'.
Anyway, I stated that Jesus is as real as Julius Ceasar or any other famous Roman, we only know about them and their existents from records and documents that have lasted throughout history.
Avoiding my point again.
Jesus is magical. Ceaser is not.
Any sources? Or actual evidence?
I thought you would of understood my references to Rushdie and his 'Satanic Verses' book that almost got him killed by the muslims? And also the recent death of the US Ambassador by a terrorist.
As I said, I am not a muslim. I cannot speak for Islam. You can't just make me accountable for all their faults just because I'm religious.
My point still stands, concerning this debate.
And I suggest you research more into Islam.
Sarcasm...
Useless sarcasm. I've already disputed you though on that matter; the religious conflict between Jews and Muslims were caused by their conflict of religious beliefs.
Yes, they would have just found another reason to get people to invade the Middle East. Probably the 'there's treasure there lets plunder it' way of thinking that most people actually joined the Crusades for.
Again, are you serious? They believed they were doing the work of the Lord, to kill all those who defied their beliefs, and perhaps be rewarded in return. If you remove their ideologies, all they would have is no reason to fight anyone; no drive.
Once again I cannot speak for Islam. Unless you're one of those who believes muslims seek to kill us all, I suggest you stick to Christianity, as I'm not going to argue for a religion I don't believe in.
And once again, we are debating about it, so get used to it.
Hence, he wasn't a Christian.
"
I already told you that in his speeches and writings, he believed he was doing the work of God. So even if he wasn't christian, he had religious means behind his genocide.
One second you're saying Hitler slaughtered the Jews because he thought it was doing God's work, then when I argue he did it for what he believed where scientific causes, you suddenly claim he was a psychopath?
He was a psychopath to act on his want for ethnic cleansing.
But he also justified his actions by claiming he was doing the work of God.
How are apes "Godless animals"? Since they were created by God?
You believe that, since they didn't know God, or the bible. As much as you would call me a Godless human.
That's just taking it completely out of context. In WWII Nazi-Germany, the government were the ones killing people, who would the Jews have called out for help for?
And most likely if they did fight back, they would end up killing you.
My points still stand; the fear of consequence, the human emotion of empathy. All that stuff still applies.
Exactly, while we may take care of our own family, when resources become scarce humans follow the natural instinct of eliminating other humans to gain more resources.
Ergo we are similar to apes.
Once again, please provide evidence for your claim. How could you possibly know that before the existence of the Bible all humanity worked togethor in harmony?
The Aztecs, the Egyptians, Polynesia, all successful civilizations. Do I really need to go further? I expect you to already have some kind of knowledge in this matter.
Or is everything you know trapped inside of this Christian world of yours?
To be honest, I've lost passion for this debate. It's reached to the stage where people are just upvote/downvoting each other. So I have replied to your previous argument and this argument will be the last I make in this debate.
Gaining the winning position doesn't concern me. Nor should it concern you.
It's reached to the stage where people are just upvote/downvoting each other.
We haven't been upvoted or downvoted in our string of debates.
So I have replied to your previous argument and this argument will be the last I make in this debate.
Is that seriously your only reason? This has happened to be countless times, even with Srom.
You are avoiding my points. I found your previous argument less than satisfactory- it didn't really dispute all my heavy points, which I find disappointing.
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. Wars are brought upon mankind via human error. In other words, people kill people, people do harm to other people, not religion. Religion cannot be blamed for the errors of mankind. Religion cannot be blamed where humanity falls short.
You people need to stop blaming religion for everything. Its not your scapegoat. I suppose the Civil War in Syria is a religious war right now based on the way your acting.
You're full of shit Mackindale. Human error, human demise, the indifference of good man, these things are the problem. Human beings do dumb shit, they dont do dumb shit because of their religion, they do dumb shit because they're human and mankind is not perfect. Do not blame religion for what people do, the people are the problem. You blame religion for so much, you are complete bullshit and your logic is bullshit, if you continue to state that human error is religion. Fuck that noise and anything you say Mackindale.
Religion doesn't cause every war, but what else can spur a person to kill another without guilt?
For God and country, they say. The entire US military is at least 80% Christian, but likely much more. The entire Iraq war was because George Bush had said "God told me to go after terrorists" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
But you know what? You are religious, aren't you? Obviously you're simply insulted because I called you part of the problem.
What I say isn't bullshit. It's what you say. You can't even prove that your supernatural bullshit is real. Yet there is war in the name of god. Political agendas too, perhaps, but what man would fight for another man's riches? Only if that man thought he was fighting for a god would mass numbers commit themselves to war.
From the Crusades to the Inquisition to the terrorist attacks to the Iraq war, religion has played a part in all of those. WWI and WWII were not quite as religious, yet even Hitler was still a Christian, trying to wipe out Jews, a religious and racial sect. It may have been more racial than anything else, but if the Jewish religion and Christian religion did not exist, would Hitler have done the same?
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Human error can account for many things, but the names of those errors are greed, religion, division and political agendas.
No one sane can blame religion 100%, but no one sane could say religion did not contribute either.
Like, "Fuck that noise and anything you say Mackindale."
I can imagine you literally shouting and perhaps crying in real life as you say that.
Try to calm down. It's only the internet.
and I do not tell you what you believe in is wrong
You wrote that before. Why don't you?
Why don't you SHOW me that I'm wrong? If you're going to get so angry at me and tell me I'm full of lies, despite the fact that the phrase "holy war" is an actual phrase, if you're going to say your god is real, then why don't you show me the truth?
You can't, can you?
You can wish or pray for proof, but nothing will happen. You're simply wrong.
I don't see why you fight for these indoctrinated lies. It seems almost pitiful watching you get so angry, despite the fact that you can't prove anything. Why don't you find proof then?
Despite religion's weak logic and weak evidence now, it doesn't mean it's not real.
All you need to do is show me that it's real.
If you can't do this, then you are no better than a hobo with a cardboard sign around him telling me that demons are out to eat me.
Or something crazy. I was going to say "burn in hell forever if I didn't believe him", but hobos don't say that as often as priests and religious people.
Yes, they do say that.
People do say that.
Please realize
that people
say
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You will
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burn
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in
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hell
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forever
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If I don't believe in their god.
If you don't realize that "burning in hell forever" for not believing in a certain religion is insane beyond belief, then I am afraid you are no different than the rest of them, and that you are also insane.
Even if you don't share that particular belief of hell, it is the same concept of "Believe what I believe because I say so."
It's just pitiful that wars and oppression and division and hate exist- because of religion. There are other causes, of course, but when it comes down to it, I see race, religion and culture in the way of peace and loving coexistence far more than any other aspect.
Can you think of other causes of strife and war and pain in the world? You say that people are weak, they are greedy and selfish, they don't choose peace when the option is there, they don't share their food with the hungry- or do they?
Perhaps some people do choose peace. Perhaps that's why I'm on a debate site and not starting the atheist revolution to wipe out all religious people.
Perhaps an angry debate is preferable to real bloodshed to me.
Also, you have foiled the ability for me to edit the debate.
I was going to add
"Why do religious people, especially Christians, always make humans out to be so flawed and evil and horrible?
I am sure that it is only religious people who say that humans are so evil and twisted, for many humanists I know, those who believe in the power of human ingenuity and our own ability to live to bring peace and happiness to the world think that humans are actually quite wonderful, despite our flaws. It seems only pitiful that religious people point to such evil in mankind, while blissfully ignoring the damage their untrue and violent religions cause."
Lol a temer tantrum? Is this the 3rd grade class for atheists? Aw I believe it is. Whoops, I believe I am in the wrong grade and class, I'm supposed to be in grade infinity and beyond in the class of ultimate knowledge and assurance.
Well then, it was semi nice speaking with you, or sorry, debating with you. Um, if you come around to it and stop blaming god for most evil in life, or when you're finished using extremists within religions and being extreme atheist yourself, or when you're finished being SPOON FED everything and anything in this life, or when you're finished calling religious people lairs and insane, or when you're done claiming theists need to prove something to you, or when you're done being arrogant about atheism then I will continue discussions with you. But as it seems, this is not possible, your feet are cemented in concrete and you believe your base is strong yet you cannot move forward.
SO, while you are stuck in the ground without any idea or desire of moving forward, I will look behind me and see Mackindale cursing to the skies wondering what the hell happened.
"Give me a reason so believe you or respect your ideas and I will."
And you actually meant to say "give me a reason TO believe you..." no "so"..
So I say fuck that again, you're pin pointing words that I choose to spell incorrectly that which once again proves that you look for certain mistakes and magnify them even though they mean NOTHING to the point being made.
From you ------> All I've noticed from you is that you consistently spell "liar" wrong, spelling it "lair" instead.
So once again, I will say "fuck that noise" (which in actuality these words are slang and few people realize what this means)
You are a joke to debate with because you call people WETARDED (or, retarded) names, like "LAIR" (or liar), and "ignant" (or, ignorant), and you're words are full of bull shit. That's b-u-l-l PLUS s-h-i-t.
Is that clear enough for you? Whomever speaks to you is already at a loss because your standards and "the bar" is raised so high that no one can touch it; you don't want to hear or understand what you don't want to hear or understand. You atheists, especially you, on this create debate site claim to look for efficient and "facts" on why theists believe yet you already feel deep down there is nothing a man of faith can say to you to prove it to you, as said above, people are already at a loss when debating with you on theism.
Oh and for the record, Richard Dawkins recently was interviewed and in that interview a question was asked somewhere in the lines of "If you died and somehow met God after life what would you ask him" and Dawkins replied somewhere in the lines of "I would ask him which God are you? Are you Yaweh? Are you Baal? [ect]... I would also ask him, why did you hide away from us?" < - - - - Ah, and the truth may set you free.
I've learn something about you atheist from that last question: "Why did you hide away from us?" And that is atheist are hurt, they are deeply wounded in that they feel left behind, they feel betrayed of the truth in perfect form, they chase after the red dragon and feel they're left alone to figure out this universe on their own. Very interesting indeed, Mackindale.
There is a difference in a typo and consistently spelling a word wrong, or I would have mentioned it the first time I noticed your error.
What you say is stupid. You still haven't given me a reason to believe you or take you seriously. You again tell me I'm wrong, but you don't back yourself up.
You say atheists are hurt, which means it is clear you don't understand atheism. You see only the atheist arguments, but you cannot understand the mentality. I do understand religious mentality, because I was once religious. You are half as knowledgeable as me on these things, because you have only seen it from view.
You type as if you knew some grand secret, but the truth is that you're full of shit and deluded.
It's sad, isn't it, that you think you're wise. You're not wise.
You know how I know?
You've never once refuted a single argument I've made. You've tried to counter them or make them look bad. You've tried to make me look closed or narrow minded, but you've never actually beaten an argument with logic or sense or evidence.
You're talking, but your words only make you appear wise to a fool. To anyone smarter than that, they can easily pick up on your own blown up sense of self worth because you think you're right.
But I'm smarter than that. I already know that the more you know, the more you know you don't know.
If you can tell me there's a reason to believe in a god, to accept an absolute existence of this sort of being, then I can beat that reasoning by saying "prove it". Until then, everything you say is pseudo-intelligent bullshit written to insult and attempt to manipulate people.
You're wrong. Your god isn't real. Any insult or logic I add to that is superfluous, but the core argument is "Prove you are correct and that I'm wrong."
You can't because you're wrong.
If all was known about the universe instantly, I would be correct. There is no god.
If there is, then prove it. Otherwise, you can read through history and gloat at your religious empires having enslaved, oppressed, lied to and killed billions of people, engaged in your wars and inquisitions, and read of the riches they've made and still have, giving me the future, where mankind doesn't have to believe in the supernatural to be happy and find love and enjoy life. Where we can be free from your insane tyrannical system of bowing to a non-existent god.
"If all was known about the universe instantly, I would be correct. There is no god.
If there is, then prove it. Otherwise, you can read through history and gloat at your religious empires having enslaved, oppressed, lied to and killed billions of people, engaged in your wars and inquisitions, and read of the riches they've made and still have, giving me the future, where mankind doesn't have to believe in the supernatural to be happy and find love and enjoy life. Where we can be free from your insane tyrannical system of bowing to a non-existent god."
Once again, my beliefs in any god have been attacked, and they're slim on your part.
What's wrong with believing in so-called fairy tales; werewolves, fairies, santa claus, god, or unicorns? It is obvious how that affects you, that people believe in these "crazy" ideas and none of it can be true? Or if it is true, then you place it on the shoulders of those who believe to suit your needs? It's like you're calling out to those like myself, proclaiming to the highest mountain tops "Show me your god!". And when those who believe attempt to explain how they know god, those of extreme and those of balance; both are degenerate in your mind; the answer you seek is but tainted by your contradictory thoughts. You shout out these questions to the universe and when those who believe in said questions, answer in whichever way possible you continue to ask the question, which is normal. As if one person is going to one day come across you anywhere and tell you the secrets of life and death; that everything will be fucking okay.
I am in the wisest form of this day and fuck you for telling me otherwise, you even said, we don't fucking know anything but we strive to life.
Mankind has lived in it's world for ages upon ages, and you think your words have much effect on those who believe? Sure they may make us rise and shout, but your words have little effect there guy.
I have no problem with what you believe in, it's how you're claiming those who believe must present you something. Find your own fucking clue and figure that shit out yourself, I have no obligation to prove to you shit, anything. End of story.
I mean, do you think I do think with every religious person I meet? I am just curious because it's clear that every religious argument on this site is beaten down instantly, yet people still have faith.
I am thinking it is either indoctrination, fear or delusion. Unless you can prove that it's actually real, which is what I want you to do, then why do you write paragraphs with not a stitch of sense or evidence or reason to believe what you say?
Also, your "blaming god for evil" is quite false. I blame god for nothing. I am only attributing evil to a god, because if an almighty being who was capable of reducing evil existed, it would be evil for him to allow small children to be raped or starve to , despite his ability to stop it.
However, that being clearly does not exist from both a philosophical standpoint, a scientific standpoint and the very fact that humans are also creators of art and wonder, without the need for being gods. Evolution, the big bang's evidence and the very fact that nihilism is truth, for you to choose your own path in life all point to the non-existence of a god, along with the utter lies and insanity of organized religion, and the non-evidence of unorganized supernatural beliefs.
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Now, you are being childish simply insulting me. Every insult I deliver is always paired with a logical argument as well. I am not so childish to simply scream insults as you have, however I am truly young at heart, for I can still have fun with petty insults, as long as I have something for them to stand upon besides pure anger and venom.
You've basically said "You're an idiot, you have to consider my point valid, even though I admit I have no proof and nothing to convince you with, besides telling you that you're narrow minded."
As if I wasn't once Christian, with belief greater than or rivaling your own. Not only Christian, but I have read about and even believed in several religions over the course of my life.
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Also, don't tell me about "spoon feeding". You're religious, so you know all about being spoon fed from priests or your holy books. I actually had to think for myself to figure out what was logical and how the universe actually was, rather than depending on "wise" words from prophets, soothsayers, shamen and other crackpots.
You've basically said "You're an idiot, you have to consider my point valid, even though I admit I have no proof and nothing to convince you with, besides telling you that you're narrow minded."
Once again you're assuming what and how I go about what I believe in and how I portray myself. My "childish insults" are merely mirror reflective defensive stances on your attacking calling people like me liars and the god I believe in not good enough. That is an insult to me. You threw the first punch, I simply defended myself, Mackindale. Be done with your insults and then see how that fares with you.
My punch was thrown with logic and evidence and reason. Yours was the anger of a child who was proven wrong but can't accept it.
I said "Why doesn't god prevent childrape?" You make some bullshit excuse and say it's man's fault. No fucking shit it's man's fault. Are you stupid or something??? The point is if god was almighty, good or there, he would stop children from being raped. Yes, of course it is man's fault. God doesn't exist.
You are laughable. You speak of obvious points yet you're obvious clueless of the points you obviously make.
The creator is almighty, we cannot touch it, we're obviously having heated discussion about it. Further, god is real, and people who hurt other people are real. What can be said of both? People aren't being raped because god is not almighty, people are being raped because people are selfish and needy. You are not questioning what god can and cannot do, you are question why god would allow such a thing.
Cuaroc, you are probably right about being a lost theist but at least I know where I stand within theism and where I want to go. It's apparent atheism has goals other than what they claim to believe in. This dud Mackindale is being a troll dick wad towards those who believe, that's all.
People do dumb shit because of what they believe, which is religion. Your point that they do dumb shit because they aren't perfect stands too... the reason religion exists is because humans aren't perfect, after all. They are the inventors of religion.
It's just a matter of semantics. It's like saying that faulty security systems don't cause people to escape. Well yeah, the people are the ones doing the escaping, but come on, don't get smart and or be difficult over words.
Like many people you fall into the trap of using the word religion when you should have said God - Religion is a man made idea and there are many religions. History is full of religious wars but I grant you they were created by man. God is Love and Peace, its what we have done that screwed up the world!!!
Atheits might argue that religion is a tool that was used to justify war. In fact used by people. Were there no religion would there be justifications based on values and morality. If there was no morality no justifications would even be needed. In the end it is a matter of human nature. Religions and states do not cause wars, behind all of that are the people. They also have used these institutions for maintaining peace, but then decided not to.
It's just a matter of semantics. It's like saying that faulty security systems don't cause people to escape. Well yeah, the people are the ones doing the escaping, but come on, don't get smart and or be difficult over words.
Fools wake up to the wars in your homes,schools& work places; in your boroughs in your own cities, is everything to be blamed in the name of God or religion? Take accountability for your action and stop refusing the obvious that you are the blood thirsty one who runs blindly to shed innocent blood. Has not the Messiah told you what is the acceptable sacrifice? It is the word of God, it is Christ and nothing else will do. Be still and know God is God and not you, Give the word of God to self others and God! What is this word of God? It's justice and compassion and goodness and correction!
If only been on this website and it amazes me what some people's beliefs are. It's called putting your differences behind you. Religion doesn't cause a war, it's the people who do. Religion might be the thing that there fights for but its the people.
Religion is not a living being. It can't start wars. That's also like saying its guns that start war. No, it's the person behind the reason that starts the war. If this were just a world of reason and not people then there would be no wars because only people can start it. People also say it's the southern flag that the reason why there is war. Can to flags stand up and start a fist fight? No because flags aren't living beings. It's the person that starts the wars. All those things that I said like the flag, guns, and religion can be the reason for a war but they never started a war. That's when people can put there differences behind them. For example: people think religion caused the war between the world and ISIS. No it's the ISIS that started it. Not the religion. There religion is the reason but the religion never started the war.
In their Encyclopedia of Wars, authors Charles Phillips[disambiguation needed] and Alan Axelrod attempt a comprehensive listing of wars in history. They document 1763 wars overall, of which 123 (7%) have been classified to involve a religious conflict."
I admit that there were the Catholic Crusades and Inquisition. But to claim that there were over 100 wars solely about religion sounds a bit far fetched.
That may be their reason. But there are far more things that succumb war like land and power of the authorities. Man at those times desired power and wealth and would use any means to start a war, even making a petty excuse just to claim it. The religion did not cause the war, ti was the people`s decisions that made it happen.
Without using the excuse of "religion" it would have been slightly more difficult or challenging to convince the population that this was a just war. By using the veil of religion as the "priority", they could more easily rally the population's support by claiming that they are operating on god's will. It's a very useful tool. It would still happen, but without it, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to start a war for land and power and such.
I can imagine one of the reason why these wars begins is because of the different religions views. The religions have several guidelines and these guidelines are sometimes causing a mess. Like when someone draw the prophet Mohamed some Muslims get really angry cause it's against there religion to do that. Another thing about religions is that you become a part of a group, and as a group you stand a lot stronger then a single person. So when someone draw Mohamed, the Muslims get angry because they know they can. When you insult or argue about a religion you insult a group of people. It's much easier to start a war when you're already a gathered group.
So does people start the wars or the religion? Well, a religion consist of a bunch of people, so people start the wars, but mostly of the time because of the religions guidelines/views, and the fact that they together as a group are able to start the war.
I made debate a long time ago saying does religion cause war and people responded and answered and they said yes it does cause war here is a link of the debate i made
Supporting Evidence:
My debate
(www.createdebate.com)
And the Lord said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid of them, for tomorrow at this time I will give over all of them, slain, to Israel. You shall hamstring their horses and burn their chariots with fire.” 7 So Joshua and all his warriors came suddenly against them by the waters of Merom and fell upon them. 8 And the Lord gave them into the hand of Israel, who struck them and chased them … until he left none remaining. 9 And Joshua did to them just as the Lord said to him: he hamstrung their horses and burned their chariots with fire … And they struck with the sword all who were in [Hazor], devoting them to destruction; there was none left that breathed. And he burned Hazor with fire. … And all the spoil of these cities and the livestock, the people of Israel took for their plunder. But every man they struck with the edge of the sword until they had destroyed them, and they did not leave any who breathed. 15 Just as the Lord had commanded Moses his servant, so Moses commanded Joshua, and so Joshua did. He left nothing undone of all that the Lord had commanded Moses.
(Deuteronomy 7: 1-2)
When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
(Deuteronomy 7 :16)
You must destroy all the peoples the LORD your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you
From the Qu'ran
Quran (2:191-193)
"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
Quran (2:216)
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Any way the men and the religion are one and the same.
Religion has never caused a war. Religion is not a moving breathing entity. It is nothing more than a body of philosophies and ideologies. Wars are cause by men. Sometimes they are done in the name of Religion. There are those few times when men have truly felt in their hearts that it was required of them based on their religious teachings. Most times simple misinterpretations can account for that. More often than not, however, men seek to wage war in the name of religion not because they are religious or felt forced to in order to prove themselves Godly but simply because it can be a tool to control the masses. A cause to rally around. Especially given that of the billion people who are Christians on this earth. Less than half have probably read the Bible from the first page to the last or have sought to critically analyse the bible allowing room for incorrect translations and interpretations over the years or for reason and logic and humanity. They hardly ever approach the bible in a holistic manner. They take what they want to take from the bible and leave out the aspects of it that are inconvenient for them. People who are anti gay because the Bible states in Deuteronomy that homosexuality is an abomination might want to temper their self-righteous indignation with the fact that lying, fornication, adultery, laziness, and not honoring your father and mother are all described using the word "abomination". Those who are against masturbation or preventive birth control will cite the lord Killing Onan for "spilling his seed." But they seem to forget that in Biblical days when A man's brother died that it was his duty, providing that he was unmarried, to marry her and produce an heir but Onan resenting that the child would not be considered his own spilled his seed. How is that related to war. It isn't. It is a case in point of people plucking specific verses from the bible to suit their purposes.
You have done something very similar by taking all of these verses without ever searching for a backdrop or context to it simply to prove your point. I didn't even have to turn to my bible. I just googled the thing!
Before you actually get to Joshua 11:6-15 you have Joshua 11: 1-6
1 And it came to pass, when Jabin king of Hazor had heard those things, that he sent to Jobab king of Madon, and to the king of Shimron, and to the king of Achshaph,
2 And to the kings that were on the north of the mountains, and of the plains south of Chinneroth, and in the valley, and in the borders of Dor on the west,
3 And to the Canaanite on the east and on the west, and to the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Jebusite in the mountains, and to the Hivite under Hermon in the land of Mizpeh.
4 And they went out, they and all their hosts with them, much people, even as the sand that is upon the sea shore in multitude, with horses and chariots very many.
5 And when all these kings were met together, they came and pitched together at the waters of Merom, to fight against Israel.
6 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Be not afraid because of them: for to morrow about this time will I deliver them up all slain before Israel: thou shalt hough their horses, and burn their chariots with fire.
After Deuteronomy 7:16 you have Deuteronomy 7:4
4 “For 1they will turn your 2sons away from 3following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you and aHe will quickly destroy you.
I did not have to look very far for an inkling of an explanation to the above mentioned verses. And if you were actually to read the Bible you are so ready to condemn you'd know that as long as the children of Israel were not in danger then the "Lord" let all the other nations around them be whether they worshiped him or not and blessed them for at least respecting that they were his chosen people.
Hell, I would raise hell if i Knew people wanted to hurt my Children for no reason.
Who is accountable for WWI AND WWII? For Napoleon's Wars? For Alexander the Great? For General Petraeus? or Should I say the United States? The Civil War? The American Revolutionary War? The War in Libya? Some of those I would definitely say were justifiable but they were not caused by Religion!
I can't comment too much as to the Qua ran. I Have not actually finished reading it.
Religion has never caused a war. Religion is not a moving breathing entity.
A religion is a collection of people with the same ideals, a people that follow a set of rules and as I've pointed out rules that have commanded war.
You have done something very similar by taking all of these verses without ever searching for a backdrop or context to it simply to prove your point.
I have simply pointed out that the bible shows that war was called for.
I did not have to look very far for an inkling of an explanation to the above mentioned verses. And if you were actually to read the Bible you are so ready to condemn you'd know that as long as the children of Israel were not in danger then the "Lord" let all the other nations around them be whether they worshiped him or not and blessed them for at least respecting that they were his chosen people.
I have read the bible, and I do know of the context of the verses, the issue is that these situations happened at all, God is all-everything, and his thirst for blood is basically infinite as well, he has called for slaying of first born, genocide, holy war, and a global flood that mindlessly slaughtered millions if not billions of living entities, including again children.
Hell, I would raise hell if i Knew people wanted to hurt my Children for no reason
The very fact they are in danger is God's doing and the fact that there is a chosen people is ridiculous.
Who is accountable for WWI AND WWII? For Napoleon's Wars? For Alexander the Great? For General Petraeus? or Should I say the United States? The Civil War? The American Revolutionary War? The War in Libya?
I'm sure they have their separate histories and many complex causes. Religion is a tool like any other, it can be used to condemn and condone the same actions based on one's interpretation of scriptures.
A religion is a collection of people with the same ideals, a people that follow a set of rules and as I've pointed out rules that have commanded war.
The Oxford Dictionary, The Merriam and Collins Dictionary in addition to a plethora of lesser known dictionaries contradict your definition of the word "religion" Perhaps you should look into that because an effective debate cannot be conducted in the absence of consensus on the definition of key terms in the subject matter.
noun
[mass noun]
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:
ideas about the relationship between science and religion
[count noun] a particular system of faith and worship:
the world’s great religions
[count noun] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:
consumerism is the new religion
Like I said a religion is nothing more than a body of dogmas and beliefs.
I have simply pointed out that the bible shows that war was called for.
Conceivably neither God nor Joshua would have had cause to wipe out those myriad kings and their armies if those "people,' "individuals" as a group had not sought to wage war against them in the fist place. Therefore it was not for religious purposes that Israel retaliated but for survival purposes. By the same token when a man, who happens to religious, shoots someone who invades his home to protect his wife and child religion is to blame. The idiot invading the man's home is to blame, if you ask me.
I have read the bible, and I do know of the context of the verses, the issue is that these situations happened at all, God is all-everything, and his thirst for blood is basically infinite as well, he has called for slaying of first born, genocide, holy war, and a global flood that mindlessly slaughtered millions if not billions of living entities, including again children.
Again all out of context. First born i assume refers to the Plagues in Egypt. The only reason that happened is in the defense of an oppressed people. What are you implying that The Israelite should have been left to suffer for another four hundred years. That their God should not have fought for them given that they were unable to do so for themselves. Or have you forgotten that Pharaoh also killed the first born of Israel and not religious purposed but out fear that one day they would be able to rise up against Egypt and defend themselves; all tyrants fear that day. Pharaoh and his people are responsible for what happened; they actively and passively took part in the enslavement and maltreatment of an entire nation. At least where the Bible is concerned I know of no holy war. If you are going to debate this issue you have t at least be able to entertain and not necessarily accept the idea that there is a "GOD." So upon the assumption that God is all knowing and all seeing he knew why he decided to flood the earth. And he knew why he decided to save Noah, his sons and his sons' wives. Now shortly after the flood Noah's son defiled him while he was in a drunken state which we can, i think, agree is a despicable thing to do for which his father cursed him. Again entertaining our hypothesis that there is a God and he is all knowing he must have known that Noah's son would have done what he did yet he saved him. Does that not make you wonder what exactly the other people on the earth were doing. It had to be pretty evil in my opinion. I suppose that is something only somebody with a lot of faith in the God could truly accept; that God is all knowing and all seeing. But if you had the gift or curse of seeing the future would you have Hitler live, or Osama Bin Laden or A man who has raped countless children. Or your child. It's always easier to give the self-righteous answer if no one you care about is in danger.
The very fact they are in danger is God's doing and the fact that there is a chosen people is ridiculous.
People have free will. They choose to harm others. Ergo they, people are responsible for the raping and murdering and enslavement of multitudes of people not a God that most of them don't believe in but we chose to blame for their actions. Let's let all criminals in the world go on account of the fact that they only hurt or endangered others because God somehow made them do it.
I can tell you religion had nothing to do with any of those wars. Hitler was a psych who felt that all men should be of a particular race, Napoleon believed in earning one's place in society versus being allotted one niche in it based on one's lineage, Alexander the Great wanted nothing more than to conquer the world, Iraq supposedly had weapons of mass destruction, People in the U.S wanted independence from Britain, The Civil war was due to the enslavement, rape, and murder of thousands, millions of Africans who were just fed up of being treated as thought they were less than human. Find religion in any of that and you'll be my new hero.
P.S. sorry I did't have the time to highlight your points. You did that and it made reading the argument easier for me to read. I need to get my Granddad lunch. :)
The Oxford Dictionary, The Merriam and Collins Dictionary in addition to a plethora of lesser known dictionaries contradict your definition of the word "religion" Perhaps you should look into that because an effective debate cannot be conducted in the absence of consensus on the definition of key terms in the subject matter.
Tell me a religion can exist without people.
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:
A belief by whom?
ideas about the relationship between science and religion
Who's ideas?
a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:
By whom?
Like I said a religion is nothing more than a body of dogmas and beliefs.
These would only be a body of texts and not a religion without followers, and those texts wouldn't even exist without people.
I have simply pointed out that the bible shows that war was called for.
I suppose it was morally just to disable the horses and leave nobody breathing, even those in the cities, those that did not march to war, every army is filled with those that would rather not be fighting and a few that would.
Conceivably neither God nor Joshua would have had cause to wipe out those myriad kings and their armies if those "people,' "individuals" as a group had not sought to wage war against them in the fist place.
Conceivably, in a world where there is a just God, this scenario wouldn't happen in the first place, and as such the war would not have happened.
First born i assume refers to the Plagues in Egypt. The only reason that happened is in the defense of an oppressed people.
So what exactly did these children do to deserve death?
What are you implying that The Israelite should have been left to suffer for another four hundred years.
So killing children was the way to go?
That their God should not have fought for them given that they were unable to do so for themselves.
Seems they can't really do much for themselves.
At least where the Bible is concerned I know of no holy war
The situation we are discussing is a holy war, for the Israelites to attack instead of defend and for God to call for the slaying of every breathing man and subsequently take the spoils is nearly the same as the Jihad that is being mounted by Islamic fundamentalists.
If you are going to debate this issue you have t at least be able to entertain and not necessarily accept the idea that there is a "GOD."
That's exactly what I'm doing.
Does that not make you wonder what exactly the other people on the earth were doing. It had to be pretty evil in my opinion.
What about the children, mentally handicapped and billions of living organisms that were also alive?
But if you had the gift or curse of seeing the future would you have Hitler live, or Osama Bin Laden or A man who has raped countless children. Or your child. It's always easier to give the self-righteous answer if no one you care about is in danger.
Extrapolate back and ask, why did he create all of this in the first place, to condemn evil as well as make it is in every essence hypocritical.
To what source does a man look when struggling with his morality? God?
Well that would be all well and good if God was just, but he is not.
People have free will.
Omniscience precludes free will.
They choose to harm others
Every second of our lives has been preordained by the creator, his plan is perfect, in order for this to be so, there is no element of choice, for if there was a the perfect plan could be deviated from and thus be rendered imperfect, by this reasoning harm caused is predetermined.
Alas there is no consensus on the definition of a religion. However, if i were to work with your argument you'd be contradicting yourself.
These would only be a body of texts and not a religion without followers, and those texts wouldn't even exist without people. Religion would not exist without people.
Therefore it is not Religion that is responsible for wars but people. Is that not a logical argument of causation?
Conceivably, in a world where there is a just God, this scenario wouldn't happen in the first place, and as such the war would not have happened.
Why in a world with a God wouldn't that happen? All religions on this earth agree on one thing; God gave us free will. Therefore the state of our world is our doing and not his. Would you prefer to give up your free will and have every decision made for you in favor of a perfect world. Alas that is the only way you would have a perfect world because as long as there is free will some will chose good and some evil. simple as that.
What did the Israelite' children do to deserve death?
I can't promise that if you slaughter my children in front of me I would turn the other cheek. Because killing you could never cause you the amount of pain that seeing my children die in that way caused me. Karma is a female dog.
Seems they can't really do much for themselves.
You are not being very logical are you? Let's talk statistics. What is the probability of an army of 400 defeating an army of 400,000 and that's an underestimation because i have no desire to consult Exodus at the moment? Let's put you in battle against those odds and see how you fare?
Omniscience precludes free will.
How so? I may know that you are going to pelt Uncle Tom with an apple before you do it. But because I told you have free will I let you do it anyway to see for yourself that one you have free will, two to see who you truly are and three give you the opportunity to chose differently next time from experience. And then reasonably, if i were your parent some form of punishment should be in order for you.Because free will does not mean there are no consequences.
Extrapolate back and ask, why did he create all of this in the first place, to condemn evil as well as make it is in every essence hypocritical.
To what source does a man look when struggling with his morality? God?
Well that would be all well and good if God was just, but he is not.
If we go by the Bible's version of history. God created the angels epochs before man. Lucifer, angel of light was first to rebel saying God was a dictator. So God said look if you want you can leave my home and do as you please and all those who want to follow you can. Many chose to follow. So to avoid being accused of being a tyrant God gave Adam an Eve a choice. He could simply not have planted the proverbial tree in the first place. well it's proverbial in my opinion. I won't have any child of mine raping anyone or murdering anyone in my house It's mine. I worked hard to build it. Similarly God simply said hey if you can't play by my rules mi case no es tu casa.
Let's take the pill for example, contraceptive pill that is. I assume, i may be wrong that is was created for preventive purposes to reduced the state of impoverished families yet women all over the world use it simply because they time and again chose to be irresponsible and then to simply discard their responsibilities. Should we just abolish the use of the pill then? No because then we'll have many children growing up in homes that either are not ready or don't want them or cannot afford them the lives they deserve.Not to mention the women that use if for medical purposes. should we blame the creators of the pill for what someone women chose to do with it?
Maybe you think you have no power to shape your life. I certainly do.
Therefore it is not Religion that is responsible for wars but people. Is that a logical argument of causation?
They are one and the same.
Why in a world with a God wouldn't that happen?
I said a just God.
All religions on this earth agree on one thing; God gave us free will.
If they believe in an omniscient God then they are fooling themselves.
Would you prefer to give up your free will and have every decision made for you in favor of a perfect world.
Why do you ask?
Alas that is the only way you would have a perfect world because as long as there is free will some will chose good and some evil. simple as that.
Baseless assertion.
You are not being very logical are you?
I believe I am, the Jews would have been eradicated eventually were it not for God's discriminate choice/
You are not being very logical are you? Let's talk statistics. What is the probability of an army of 400 defeating an army of 400,000 and that's an underestimation because i have no desire to consult Exodus at the moment?
The probability is probably close to zero, but so many myths have such numbers.
How so?
An omniscient God can't not know every path that his design is going to take, and therefore knew when designing it.
As for your analogy, it doesn't even get started unless you created all aspects of the scenario.
If we go by the Bible's version of history....(Not worth copying over all, you get the point)
How did God not see that coming?
yet women all over the world use it simply because they time and again chose to be irresponsible and then to simply discard their responsibilities.
Sanctimonious much?
Maybe you think you have no power to shape your life. I certainly do.
When it comes to the English Language you seem to be an authority unto yourself therefore my pointing that they are not the same would be pointless as I assume would be my pointing out that the thesis statement also clearly differentiates between the two.
If they believe in an omniscient God then they are fooling themselves.
You are yet to explain why that is.
Why do you ask?
I ask because if you want free will for yourself. Then you should want it for others. And with free will comes both ends of the spectrum; that is good and evil.
Baseless assertion.
So you tell me how with everyone being free to chose and do as they like can there be a perfect world.
I believe I am, the Jews would have been eradicated eventually were it not for God's discriminate choice/
And you see that as just. You don't seem to have anything against the rampant cruelty of man just the perceived cruelty of God.
Unless you can Go back in time. It would probably be best for us to work with the figures we have at hand.
How did God not see that coming?
Perhaps he did but he saw the other potentials of man and all his other creations
Sanctimonious? I have simply stated a fact. Did I say I have never done any wrong? Never. I acknowledge that I have sinned like any other man. I am just not one of those people who will say whatever goes goes and take no stand simply to make myself feel better about my own wrongs. if you want to assert that all women are responsible when it comes to their bodies, BC and pregnancy go ahead.
I have a feeling that If i told you God says the sky is blue because the word God was mentioned you'd pronounce it red. And that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to hear about other people's objective and logical argument against religion simply because though my belief in a God is absolute. I have a lot of questions. And sometimes the best ways to find answers is to look at the other side of the coin.
Thanks for your time. It was really nice to talk to you. Bye. Be Good.
When it comes to the English Language you seem to be an authority unto yourself therefore my pointing that they are not the same would be pointless as I assume would be my pointing out that the thesis statement also clearly differentiates between the two.
Are you telling me that a religion can exist without people?
Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
You are yet to explain why that is.
It's because an all-knowing creator would not be so if they didn't know before they creating, exactly what their creation would do, this is designed, there is no room for choice.
So you tell me how with everyone being free to chose and do as they like can there be a perfect world.
Perfection does not exist, you are arguing fantastical parameters.
And you see that as just
No, but for a chosen race they seemed pretty impotent.
You don't seem to have anything against the rampant cruelty of man just the perceived cruelty of God.
You are yet again making a baseless assumption also, If God is perfect and cruel then cruelty is perfection, if man is flawed and cruel, then it is nature, the difference being that God should know better.
Unless you can Go back in time. It would probably be best for us to work with the figures we have at hand.
Which are?
Sanctimonious?
Yep.
if you want to assert that all women are responsible when it comes to their bodies, BC and pregnancy go ahead.
Absolutist statement, firstly you stated that Women that take the pill are irresponsible, why is this?
I have a feeling that If i told you God says the sky is blue because the word God was mentioned you'd pronounce it red
Why exactly would I do that, the situation is that if God said the sky is red, then from evidence and from consensus and my own experience I'd say it was blue.
And sometimes the best ways to find answers is to look at the other side of the coin.
You look, but do not seem to entertain. You cite logic, but can't see the logic that omniscience precludes free will and if the creator has said property he must be evil.
It seems to me that you feel comfortable labeling me as you've done several times in the post that I'm disputing.
You state that your beliefs are absolute, if this is so and you are a fan of logic then you have to be able to admit that you can't deviate and are thus stirring the pot.
"A religion is a collection of people with the same ideals, a people that follow a set of rules and as I've pointed out rules that have commanded war."
ricedaragh
The man is right its not a breathing moving entity. Look at the religious beliefs of Greece, it is still a pylosophical belief under the category religion but because no one follows it anymore. There are no wars about it. It still exists however and if the masses belief in it a war might start over it. No belief no matter how suinister can start a physical fight without people. People are the equation needed for a war. If the GErmans just ignored Hitler, where would his power come from- it would diminish into nothing and he'd just be one more whacked out ideologist.
If you look at every religious war you would realise that people must participate in it for the war to start. Not even in the case of the HEbrew Bible where God tells people to go to war, the war wouldnt start without participation from said people.
All I am saying is that every religion is an ideology. It is like words on a piece of paper, empty and worthless. It only gets life when people are placed in the equation. I dont believe people should blame something as lifeless as an ideology, its avoiding the problem, not making a solution.
Every belief needs someone to enforce it, the only way religion can start a war is if it enforces itself.
You are quoting the Old Testament, and Christians do not live by Jewish law. Jesus fulfilled the Law and brought teachings of peace and love for neighbor. The first century Christians lived by his teachings, shunning war and violence.
It was not until after all the original apostles of Christ died that true Christianity became tainted with outside teachings and became warlike.
True Christians today do not take part in war.
Here's an example:
WW1 and 2 found "Christians" fighting to wipe out their spiritual brethren, Protestant and Catholic, in other countries over nationality--because the government and their false religious leaders said they should do that. They betrayed their God for nationality.
True Christians did not take part in any wars because that would mean at the most, killing their spiritual brothers, and the least killing their "neighbor", a teaching going against the true God and Jesus Christ.
You are quoting the Old Testament, and Christians do not live by Jewish law. Jesus fulfilled the Law and brought teachings of peace and love for neighbor. The first century Christians lived by his teachings, shunning war and violence.
That's all lovely, but are you saying God was wrong?
It was not until after all the original apostles of Christ died that true Christianity became tainted with outside teachings and became warlike.
It was probably when growing numbers meant Constantine started to take it seriously.
True Christians today do not take part in war.
Well that depends on what one terms a true Christian, although I do agree with the sentiment, if one is to be a true Christian then they should follow to the letter everything Jesus said, if they deviate even slightly then they are not true Christians, right?
a teaching going against the true God and Jesus Christ.
I would like you to confirm for me a few things if you don't mind.
1 Is the Old Testament trustworthy?
2 If Christians do not live by Jewish law, does that mean that the ten commandments and all other OT decrees are null and void?
3 If the Jewish laws are not what God wanted in the end, why did he make his "chosen" people, a people that he helped out of many a scrap, a people that through the OT/Torah he warned not to follow false Gods and prophets by pain of eternal damnation, have to completely switch to a new set of laws taught by a man? (Surely Jesus must have been an affront to their centuries old teachings)
I'm not saying God was wrong, only that God is bringing about the fulfillment of his purposes in various ways at various times.
In the days of ancient Israel, God supported his people in war, sometimes aggressively, sometimes defensively. But when Jesus came, GOd's SON, he instructed the first century Christians NOT to engage in war, that they should live by the brotherly love principle.
COnstantine was a pagan politician, firstly. HE was the one who decided Christian doctrine, and wrongly so. God is the only one with that authority.
A true Christian does not PRACTICE deviation from belief, altho they may sin, become SINCERELY repentant, CHANGE their BEHAVIOR, and be forgiven.
Yes, the Old Testament is trustworthy.
Christians do not live by the Jewish Law as given to Moses, although many of the PRINCIPLES embodied in that Law were REPEATED for Christians. These principles have never become null and void.
We have not completely switched to a new set of laws through Jesus. As above, many of the PRINCIPLES of the old Law were REPEATED for Christians. But Jesus FULFILLED the old Law with his death, and hence, it has completed the purpose for which God made it.
Jesus was an affront to the Sadducees and Pharisees' teachings because they had perverted, subverted, God's original Law with weighty add-ons.
Jesus set them straight on these things, for which they murdered him.
I'm not saying God was wrong, only that God is bringing about the fulfillment of his purposes in various ways at various times.
Seems contradictory to have condoned war after commanding that his people not kill and then sending his son to say that killing is wrong.
But when Jesus came, GOd's SON, he instructed the first century Christians NOT to engage in war, that they should live by the brotherly love principle
That's all very well, why not just live by that in the first place.
COnstantine was a pagan politician, firstly. HE was the one who decided Christian doctrine, and wrongly so. God is the only one with that authority.
So, do you still believe the bible is the inerrant word of God?
A true Christian does not PRACTICE deviation from belief, altho they may sin, become SINCERELY repentant, CHANGE their BEHAVIOR, and be forgiven.
Does this count for all sin?
Yes, the Old Testament is trustworthy.
So it's laws and teachings must be upheld, or is it only when they don't contradict the teaching of Jesus.
Christians do not live by the Jewish Law as given to Moses, although many of the PRINCIPLES embodied in that Law were REPEATED for Christians. These principles have never become null and void.
So why are the Jews the chosen people? Surely God would value steadfast adherence in the face of challengers, especially given all that he and the Jews had been through.
We have not completely switched to a new set of laws through Jesus. As above, many of the PRINCIPLES of the old Law were REPEATED for Christians. But Jesus FULFILLED the old Law with his death, and hence, it has completed the purpose for which God made it.
So, you've picked and chosen those parts which make you feel easy about being essentially modern Jews.
Jesus was an affront to the Sadducees and Pharisees' teachings because they had perverted, subverted, God's original Law with weighty add-ons.
Such as?
Jesus set them straight on these things, for which they murdered him.
Was Jesus' death not the fulfilment of prophecy and his ultimate goal?
Oh by the way, what's with all the fuckin caps, honestly?
I'm not saying God was wrong, only that God is bringing about the fulfillment of his purposes in various ways at various times.
Seems contradictory to have condoned war after commanding that his people not kill and then sending his son to say that killing is wrong.
--YOU deliberately MISS the point, or are ignoring it as stated above: God is bringing about fulfillment of his purposes in various ways at various times. Don't second guess God. You will be the only one who loses in the end.
But when Jesus came, GOd's SON, he instructed the first century Christians NOT to engage in war, that they should live by the brotherly love principle...
That's all very well, why not just live by that in the first place.
--See the very first answer above: God brings about his purposes in various ways at various times. Everything has a purpose, and if you can't understand it, then it'syour problem not God's. He is smarter than you are.
COnstantine was a pagan politician, firstly. HE was the one who decided Christian doctrine, and wrongly so. God is the only one with that authority.
So, do you still believe the bible is the inerrant word of God?
--Absolutely, but the Bible contains both literal document and figurative language, just as ALL books do, except perhaps a chemistry or law textbook.
A true Christian does not PRACTICE deviation from belief, altho they may sin, become SINCERELY repentant, CHANGE their BEHAVIOR, and be forgiven.
Does this count for all sin?
All sins we are truly repentant for, yes. The key is not to practice sin after repentance takes place. There has to be a turning around of behavior.
Yes, the Old Testament is trustworthy.
So it's laws and teachings must be upheld, or is it only when they don't contradict the teaching of Jesus.
--The OT was for the Jews and Israelites. Jesus fulfilled that Law as the
only human to ever live it perfectly. After Jesus was killed, the Law had served its purpose, ad Christians were no longer bound by it, EXCEPT in the principles that were REPEATED in the NT.
Christians do not live by the Jewish Law as given to Moses, although many of the PRINCIPLES embodied in that Law were REPEATED for Christians. These principles have never become null and void.
--They have become null and void for Christians. Ex: animal sacrifices, feast days, Sabbath day laws. The part of the old Law that is repeated for Christians embodies the law of love--do not commit adultery, covet what is another's, steal, practice homosexuality or drunkenness, lie, etc. ALl of those things embody the law of brotherly love--if you practice love you will not do those things.
So why are the Jews the chosen people? Surely God would value steadfast adherence in the face of challengers, especially given all that he and the Jews had been through.
--They are not God's chosen people NOW. They killed the Son. What God values and why is your conjecture, not God's. Do not expect God to go by your reasoning, rather, open your mind and consider his reasoning as superior, and learn from it. You can do that through Bible study.
We have not completely switched to a new set of laws through Jesus. As above, many of the PRINCIPLES of the old Law were REPEATED for Christians. But Jesus FULFILLED the old Law with his death, and hence, it has completed the purpose for which God made it.
So, you've picked and chosen those parts which make you feel easy about being essentially modern Jews.
--Hardly. The entire Bible is true. It is history of the Jews, and their downfall. And one can easily see since their downfall that they are not God's chosen people now. Their nation was removed from them for thousands of years, and they were scattered so that there are no true bloodline Jews as descendants of Abraham now. They are diaspora. They have had to resort to seeking protection from a secular power in order to have a semblance of their lost country. They should have learned that lesson in Ezekiel's day, in Daniel's day, but they did not.
Caps are to emphasize certain words for meaning.
Jesus was an affront to the Sadducees and Pharisees' teachings because they had perverted, subverted, God's original Law with weighty add-ons.
Such as?
--One I can think of was that by the time Jesus came, one could not even kill a flea that was biting you on the Sabbath, as that was considered work.
Jesus set them straight on these things, for which they murdered him.
Was Jesus' death not the fulfilment of prophecy and his ultimate goal?
Jesus' death was the fulfillment of prophecy because God knew Satan was running things on earth, and that Satan could not resist killing God's first Son, whom he knew in heaven long before the creation of the universe. Think about it: all Satan had to do to win was NOT have Jesus killed, because Jesus would never have died naturally or from sickinss as a perfect man. But Satan could not resist the opportunity to arrange things so that it would happen.
--YOU deliberately MISS the point, or are ignoring it as stated above: God is bringing about fulfillment of his purposes in various ways at various times. Don't second guess God. You will be the only one who loses in the end.
I think what he is trying to say is why did things have to change? why does a world where certain times war is necessary and other times war is wrong have to exist? Why didn't god send jesus down in the first place to fulfill his purpose and end the need for war right in the beggining? Who is second guessing god? I'm pretty sure he isn't argueing that god isn't perfect as he doesn't believe in the god that you are talking about but more argueing how that god seems like a god that likely doesn't exists?
--See the very first answer above: God brings about his purposes in various ways at various times. Everything has a purpose, and if you can't understand it, then it'syour problem not God's. He is smarter than you are.
Or maybe he doesn't exist and the bible is full of BS and he's trying to point that out. He point out things in the bible that make's it's god all the less likely to exist, he's not trying to say he knows more than an all-knowing being as much as he is saying that those events are probably more works of fiction rather than an all-knowing being.
--Absolutely, but the Bible contains both literal document and figurative language, just as ALL books do, except perhaps a chemistry or law textbook.
Why do you believe that it's the innerant word of god? if it was sooo perfect he could have also made it so everyone could understand exactly what he meant or better yet since he's all powerful he could make it so every single human being that ever existed comes with a bible that explains everything more perfectly based on how each individual understands things.
--The OT was for the Jews and Israelites. Jesus fulfilled that Law as the
only human to ever live it perfectly. After Jesus was killed, the Law had served its purpose, ad Christians were no longer bound by it, EXCEPT in the principles that were REPEATED in the NT.
So wait god only made the testaments to find one person that could follow it perfectly? are you implying that god only wanted one person to reach his highest standards? or are you saying that after jesus applied that testament perfectly it changed things so much that people needed new morals to go by making it so war wasn't necessary anymore? cause I got some questions about both.
--They have become null and void for Christians. Ex: animal sacrifices, feast days, Sabbath day laws. The part of the old Law that is repeated for Christians embodies the law of love--do not commit adultery, covet what is another's, steal, practice homosexuality or drunkenness, lie, etc. ALl of those things embody the law of brotherly love--if you practice love you will not do those things.
Once again why didn't he have jesus sent down in the first place so we never had to have war in the first place?
--They are not God's chosen people NOW. They killed the Son. What God values and why is your conjecture, not God's. Do not expect God to go by your reasoning, rather, open your mind and consider his reasoning as superior, and learn from it. You can do that through Bible study.
What if that god doesn't exist and it was all made up and that is why it doesn't make any sense? he's not argueing the sense of those beliefs because he believes god exists and thinks he's smarter than him but rather to argue maybe at least some of it is total bull?
--Hardly. The entire Bible is true. It is history of the Jews, and their downfall. And one can easily see since their downfall that they are not God's chosen people now. Their nation was removed from them for thousands of years, and they were scattered so that there are no true bloodline Jews as descendants of Abraham now. They are diaspora. They have had to resort to seeking protection from a secular power in order to have a semblance of their lost country. They should have learned that lesson in Ezekiel's day, in Daniel's day, but they did not.
And why do you believe this? Why do you believe this is what happened? why do you believe everything the bible says is true?
Why do you believe this? why do you believe satan was influencing the alterations to the old testament? why do you believe this is what happened? Why should we believe it?
But when Jesus came, GOd's SON, he instructed the first century Christians NOT to engage in war, that they should live by the brotherly love principle
That's all very well, why not just live by that in the first place.
--I agree, that is what God wanted mankind to choose to do--live by the brotherly love principle. But mankind, when presented with the opportunity to be selfish and greedy, chose not to do so.
You see, what happened was this: Satan was greedy first, wanting to take God's place in the eyes of the first humans. He wanted God's worship for himself. So he tricked them into choosing greed over love of their creator, and it worked. He raised the issue of whose rulership was right--could mankind rule themselves effectively, without God, or could they not? That is the great question that the past six thousand and more years have played out, and it is about to be answered once and for all time.
The brotherly love principle will win out in the end, just as God wanted it to do before our first parents were created.
It is not the religions` fault since it was the men who decided it. Don`t you think it is a poor excuse to wage war on something because someone told you to? Some believers just use that as an excuse to get what they want. Its like making a cover story about your parents so that you can ditch school.
Religious wars should not happen at all--at least any involving "Christianity."
The fact that they do is due to GREED. ALL wars are caused by GREED first, and religion is only the secondary issue. Religious wars involving Christianity happen because the warmongers have lost their Christianity, are not living up to its principles as taught in the Christian Bible, and are putting GREED in first place in their lives, which amounts to idolatry.
Religious wars should not happen at all--at least any involving "Christianity."
This debate is not only about Christianity. It is about other religions too.
The fact that they do is due to GREED. ALL wars are caused by GREED first,
World War I, an Arch Duke was assassinated due to his people disliking the changes he was planning to make on their country. They wanted to retain their own independence as a country, so they assassinated him, sparking distrust in countries and alliances, leading to the first World War.
The American War of Independance; was about Independence. See, not all wars are about greed.
and religion is only the secondary issue.
When a famous Shiek declared a Fatwah (Death sentence) on Salman Rushdie for disgracing the name of their God, he did so despite gaining anything except for murdering a man who insulted their 'religion of peace'.
Religious wars involving Christianity happen because the warmongers have lost their Christianity, are not living up to its principles as taught in the Christian Bible, and are putting GREED in first place in their lives, which amounts to idolatry.
I don't know what the hell you're on about. In the Crusades, they were driven by religion, justifying their killings by God. If they didn't have a religion to give them a drive and justify their killings, they would just be wasting their time. And the Christian Bible? It has genocide, slavery and child-murdering.
Well, people started religions, then because people decided to go to war over religion. Saying it was only people is about as much bull as saying "Guns don't kill, people do." Well, if it weren't for the fucking guns, people wouldn't have been shot. And, if there were no religions, fascism, racism, hundreds of wars and disputes that have occurred through out mankind, would not ave occurred. Yes, people kill other people, but those people were prompted, inspired by religion. So false, religion has been responsible for, over the course of humanity, billions of deaths.
Saying it was only people is about as much bull as saying "Guns don't kill, people do."
Guns don't just get up and shoot people. Blaming inanimate objects for the actions of people is very irrational. Blaming the ideas of something for the actions of people is equally irrational. People can choose to pick up guns and shoot them and me being a racist or fascist cannot rob me of my choice to be violent.
Well yes, all religions don't kill people, but people holding the ideas that DO kill people do. I don't see a difference between saying "people believing that it's right or just to kill XYZ killed them" and "people killed XYZ"
The way I see it, religion has. Religion exists within the people. It doesn't exist by itself. If no one believes in the things listed under religions and it's not talked about, it's nothing but an idea. (for example, I write about the belief that pill bottles can eat and call it pillbotism, it doesn't really exist as a religion though). When people say religion doesn't cause it, they usually are trying to back a stance that people can still believe in religion and it doesn't kill people. Sure, it depends on the religion though. If a religion involves killing, their same stance doesn't stand.
It's probably false!Religion is one of the reason why war still exist. All people have different religion it means to have different view for everything. They couldn't find a compromission. That's why they fight with each other.
