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Veganism is the only morally defensible position. Change my mind.
Today, we live in a society in which eating animal products is completely unnecessary,”. Meat and dairy farming is cruel and barbaric, endangers our wildlife and polluted our air. I strongly believe that everyone should be vegan.
I’m interested, are there any convincing moral arguments against this?
I'm going to focus on this " endangers our wildlife and polluted our air." part right now. Even vegetable/fruit farming isn't immune to this danger. I'm just going to toss up some links to prove it:
The over-use or even use of pesticides can leak into the water source and cause birth defects, health concerns including cancer, and other various diseases. It also caused a decline in beneficial pollinators such as the bee's and butterflies. A fact that apple farmers in China found out because they have to hand pollinate their tree's to produce the fruit they so depend on when they used pesticides and killed off all their natural pollinators.
When pesticides are sprayed by using airplanes to cover more of their fields it contributes to air pollution as well. Even washing produce isn't a guarantee that you can remove all of the pesticides that have been used, many of them leech into the flesh of the fruit.
There are some dairy/cattle/pig farms that are sorely lacking in the humane aspect of it but more and more are going towards grass fed, less chemical, better grazing practices and the like. Whether or not you eat meat, we can't really say that veganism is safer and less harmful to the planet.
First of all thank you for the further reading and sharing some new views. Just on a quick look at your argument, my rebuttal would be that, while it is absolutely true that non-vegan food and practices add to pollution and a deteriorating environment, these are far more difficult to control from the grassroots. I can’t stop eating vegetables, for example, and living in inner London means I would struggle to grow my own. Going vegan, however, is a really easy way I can contribute a small amount towards the environment. Since this is something in our direct control, why can’t it be a step in the right direction rather than completely futile because we can’t solve pollution completely? An analogy might be that just because I can’t feed every starving person doesn’t mean it’s pointless to feed one.
I can’t stop eating vegetables, for example, and living in inner London means I would struggle to grow my own
This may not be entirely true. Not the 'stop eating veggies' part, I would never suggest that as a veggie lover myself, but many cities are actually starting to move towards roof top gardens. Those who live in a building that can't can actually grow a vertical garden in their room using recycled soda bottles, various containers and the like, as well as starting a hydroponics/aquaponics system. Sure you may not be able to grow root vegetables like carrots but you can grow potato's in surprisingly small containers. All of which allow you to control the chemicals placed on your crops. If you have a balcony it's amazing what, with a little ingenuity, you can grow, especially if you are willing to sacrifice some space for it.
Not even a little, no. For starters I'm omnivore. It is in my chemical make-up that I need meat and eating veggies to get enough iron and vitamin B has proven an impossibility for me. There is also enough sugar in fruits that one needs supplementation, and meat does that. I don't want to live on a diet that involves pills or powders to keep me healthy. I will sometimes change out cauliflower for meat in some recipes but mostly though I love a good steak on the grill.
That shouldn't stop you from making your own veggie/fruit garden though. There is something wonderful when you take a sun warmed tomato that you grew off the vine and bite into it.
Well thank you anyway for your dignified comments and for not resorting to insults. I would urge you to research the health benefits of going vegan, and I will research growing my own tomatoes!
If you can find egg shells (I don't know if you eat eggs but you may be able to get some from a restaurant that discards them) you can crush them up really fine and place them in the soil of your tomatoes. As they break down the tomato's love them.
Some interesting points here, but the article itself clarifies that this is absolutely not corroborated by comprehensive studies. It’s more like guesswork. What about the pain and suffering animal products cause?
Well, I eat a variety of different meats primarily because I enjoy the gastronomic experience which is enhanced in the knowledge that the poor dumb animals probably had to suffer quite a lot so I could relish the taste of their flesh.
Whether or not I've shone some light into the dark recesses of your diseased mind is of no importance to me.
What are your shoes, wallet, watch strap and the kinky gear you wear in the spanking room* made of?
Tell you what, you work your side of the street and I'll work mine.
Man, man oh man, aren't you the grown up little blue nosed puritan trying to grab the moral high ground so you can smugly talk down to all those who don't share your freakish dietary choices.
There are always those sanctimonious zealots who will use their warped sense of moral blackmail to try to intimidate others to adopt their dogma.
For years it was, and still is the religious fanatics, then the gay pride brigade, the hippies, the P.C., idiots, the feminists and now the vagans.
Why can't you obsessed lifestyle fanatics live your lives and follow your chosen agenda quietly and let others do the same?
I am living my own truth and not pushing it on anyone. I simply want to invite a discussion because I don’t think people should continue with practices that they cannot justify. This counts for any practices.
Oh, and by the way, when you resort to insults, you’ve lost the argument.
That’s merely your opinion and nothing else as to me it’s morally indefensible to be a vegan for a number of reasons , I will start with my main one .
The economic costs on society would be dreadful and lead to a catastrophic cost on employment rates worldwide as so many societies rely on animals for a livehood , some areas of the world have no other option but reliance on animals such as cows , sheep goats etc , etc
Why do you value employment over the pain and suffering of animals? If we all went vegan, a lot more work would be created in cultivating plants and producing vegan alternatives.
You say we don't need animal products? So you are saying you don't need yourself? You are a walking animal product. Saying humans don't need animal flesh is like saying a wooden table can be made out of plastic.
I’ll die if I don’t eat plants.
That's what you have been brainwashed with all your life, how do you think humans survived in the ice age on 99% animal meat?
Ok let me clarify: we do not need to consume other animals or animal biproducts in order to live and be healthy. Does that make more sense? That’s what I meant.
You are wrong Csea. Does that make more sense? If you don't eat animal products you will be deficient in a variety of nutrients including long chain fatty acids, B12, Vitamin A vitamin K-2, iron, selenium, iodine, and many more. The best sources for all these is raw organ meat and raw sea food. I bet you take artificial cyanide based B12 supplements AKA cyanocobalamin and think you can make up for your deficiencies.
I take B12, yes, but that’s exactly my point - we live in a world where we can do that and be healthy! I am not deficient in anything. Many meat eaters are deficient in various nutrients, this is absolutely not exclusive to vegans/vegetarians
“You are weong” is not a valid argument.
All I am saying is that if we can be healthy vegans, we absolutely should to reduce the suffering of animals.
we live in a world where we can do that and be healthy! I am not deficient in anything.
Are you sure? I have never seen a healthy long term vegan.
Many meat eaters are deficient in various nutrients, this is absolutely not exclusive to vegans/vegetarians
Most people in general don't know anything about nutrition so they are bound to have some deficiencies. The meat eaters and vegans that do are healthier in general regardless, but long term veganism always run out of animal fat stored in their bodies and then they start to decline.
“You are weong” is not a valid argument.
I agree, weong isn't even a word.
All I am saying is that if we can be healthy vegans, we absolutely should to reduce the suffering of animals.
Veganism is inherently unhealthy but if we stop factory farming and cruelity that would be a lot better than it is now. We could reduce a lot of suffering if we just fed animals on their natural diets and didn't imprison them or torture them.
Definitely agree about stopping factory farming, so at least we’re on the same page there.
Please have a little look online at the health benefits of becoming vegan. A plant based diet is more rich in nutrients than any other- plants after all are where your meat gets its protein!
Today, we live in a society in which eating animal products is completely unnecessary
This is incorrect. Today you live in a society where veganism is possible. The ability to be vegan is a luxury of modern western civilization and is not an option for many in the world even today. Anything that is a luxury cannot be morally superior to necessity.
Anything that is a luxury cannot be morally superior to necessity.
You're looking at this all wrong. If you are in a situation where you have to kill someone else to survive you don't have the luxury of not killing them, but if you don't have to kill them you are obligated not to. And you shouldn't really want to even if it is necessary and you must do it. Vegans are not asking people in 3rd world countries to starve, we are asking people who have the means to be healthy on a vegan diet to refrain from murdering sentient beings as it is not necessary for their survival. If you don't have the luxury of not killing for your own survival that's one thing, but if you are not starving and have access to whatever you want at the grocery store then it is morally superior to choose things that don't hurt anyone. See how this works? There is no justification for needlessly murdering sentient beings. Your situation does not necessitate the consumption of animal products, therefor it is morally superior not to, if you where one of those people who DIDN't have the luxury then it's entirely different.
Even where eating meat is not necessary, being vegan is still a luxury. Foregoing luxury is not immoral. Being a passivist is another modern luxury that practitioners like to pass off as morally superior. But society is always only one generation away from chaos (its here depending on where you live). Failing to know how to fight for yourself or maintain a stomach for meat makes you a liability in the event that your chosen luxury is no longer an option. The subjects of moral condemnation today would often be relied on in moments of crisis.
In the case of veganism, the evolved trait for in-group empathy, which used to be localized to ones own tribe of humans, has expanded as far as naturally possible beyond even humanity. You have a group preference for sentient beings and value the life of plants well below life forms that are more like you. That’s all well and good, but it’s not morally superior. The living kill to keep on living. You are no different. When I harvest plants, I try to do it as quickly and cleanly as possible. Same goes for killing animals. And I will happily keep eating meat without any qualms, you never know what tomorrow may bring.
Even where eating meat is not necessary, being vegan is still a luxury.
Being vegan is the natural state of human beings, Esau.
morally superior.
Are not the ones who eat raw meat and kiss their dogs. White people eat raw meat and fuck animals more than any other group.
You have a group preference for sentient beings and value the life of plants well below life forms that are more like you.
Only a non sentient organism could be stupid enough to not know the difference between sentience and non sentience. If valuing sentience above non sentience is not morally superior then nothing is, and if you believe that you are just a humanoid devil with no soul.
Even where eating meat is not necessary, being vegan is still a luxury. Foregoing luxury is not immoral.
Goodness gracious, you're quite the daft wank aren't you? Vegan diets are healthier and cause minimal suffering to living things and you want to play semantics games by labeling it a luxury just to create an excuse to eat animal flesh? "Gee, I could be healthier AND save lives with a properly planned vegan diet but I think I'm just going to make up fallacies so I can kill animals and clog my arteries with cholesterol"
Being a passivist is another modern luxury that practitioners like to pass off as morally superior.
Refusing to cause harm when YOUR life is threatened is just stupid. But not causing UNNECESSARY harm to sentient beings is the very definition of morality. Veganism is better for the planet, better for the animals, and better for you, you stupid brainless twit.
Failing to know how to fight for yourself or maintain a stomach for meat makes you a liability in the event that your chosen luxury is no longer an option.
Most meat eaters are just pussies who buy their meat at the grocery story. They wouldn't be able to fight for themselves any better than vegans in the wild. The people who would have the best chance of survival in the case of a societal collapse would be homesteaders. But you probably won't have to worry about it in your life time, what you should be more considered with is the number one leading cause of death- eating meat.
the evolved trait for in-group empathy, which used to be localized to ones own tribe of humans
Holy fucking ass monkeys, you are as dumb as a sack of potatoes. Haven't you ever noticed that primitive tribes around the world believe that animals have spirits and treat the ones they kill with great respect? They also have animals like dogs which they consider part of their tribe and tend to have way more respect for life in general than modernized humans.
You have a group preference for sentient beings and value the life of plants well below life forms that are more like you.
Please, stop it. At this point you must be trolling. You DO realize don't you that animals are SENTIENT and can feel PAIN and have FEELINGS and plants AREN'T and DON'T, right? Their called brains and central nervous systems, sound familiar? Plants don't have em' you ignorant retard. If you don't understand why sentient beings have higher moral value then you are a sociopath and you are literally mentally ill.
I will happily keep eating meat without any qualms
Until you get heart disease or cancer fuck face.
you never know what tomorrow may bring.
Strokes and heart attacks for meat eaters.
Go vegan motherfucker, make a muffin. You couldn't even kill a rubber ducky, son.
Many tribes eat mostly vegan as plants are easier to come by, so it is not a privilege thing. Also, I would expect that someone who has the free time and internet to debate on here probably has the capacity to become vegan. So where it is possible, we should become vegan. Would you agree with that?
Many tribes eat mostly vegan as plants are easier to come by, so it is not a privilege thing.
I never said it was a privilege thing, it’s a luxury. When tribes eat mostly plants it’s not a luxury. They eat what they can to survive. There were no vegetarians pre-agriculture. Hunter/gatherers do more than gather.
Also, I would expect that someone who has the free time and internet to debate on here probably has the capacity to become vegan
Probably, but it’s not a luxury that I am particularly drawn to.
So where it is possible, we should become vegan. Would you agree with that?
Absolutely not. Your ability to be vegan does not morally necessitate it. You live in a highly advanced society where certain crucial needs, such as physical protection and food procurement, are taken care of for you. You can be a vegan or a passivist or whatever soft and gentle thing you prefer only because of societal circumstance. You can, but it’s not morally superior.
If you agree with the assumption that minimising pain and suffering (where possible) is an ethical thing to do, then surely it follows, given that you have the ability to be vegan, that you should be vegan. Unless you disagree with that assumption?
Oh, and do look up vegan/vegetarian tribes. It’s not all out of necessity.
Why is it that PETA groups never speak out against abortion? I would actually have respect for people against cruelty to animals if they also were against cruelty to humans during abortions.
PETA groups are outraged if some hunter kills a pregnant deer, because the baby deer inside the mother deer will also die.
It's amazing how people can be so screwed up and care for an unborn animal, but say nothing for that unborn human life.
Why is it that pro life groups never speak out against animal cruelty? I would actually have respect for people against cruelty to fetuses if they also were against cruelty to animals and or any kind of cruelty whatsoever other than just that one issue.
You only care about abortion and they only care about animals, I don't see the bloody difference.
You just clearly showed us all how totally lost you are!
You just said you don't understand the difference between the value of a human life versus animal life.
THAT SAYS IT ALL!
You are so totally dead inside, that you lack the most basic of humanity. You have absolutely no caring or compassion for the lives of viable unborn babies whether they be Special Need's or others.
You just said you don't understand the difference between the value of a human life versus animal life.
That's not what he said you moron, his point was that you both only care about one issue. At least they care about everything that hurts animals, you only spend all your time talking about abortion and never talk about starving children in 3rd world countries or the chimecles in the water that turn frogs gay. You only talk about abortion because it is politically relevant to your political bias, not because you care about life, otherwise you would talk about all the problems not just one thing.
I care about all innocent life no matter what age or location. I am against purposeful cruelty to animals but when it comes to priorities, I speak much more to the cruelty to innocent human lives.
Cruelty to animals has not been legalized by the Left. KILLING VIABLE UNBORN BABIES IS KEPT LEGAL BY THE DEMOCRAT PARTY!
Can you grasp the difference?
There is this thing called PRIORITIES?
There is nothing I can do about issues in other nations, and I have no problem with people fighting cruelty to animals, but I hate phonies who are so concerned about animals and never say a thing against the LEGALIZED killing of innocent viable babies.
These phonies support the inhumanity when they vote for these radical pro abortion Democrats.
Interesting that you are so quick to notice hypocrisy in others yet fail to grasp your own: you blindly support the rights of a foetus who has not yet developed conscious thought while completely disregarding the rights of women who might be in extremely difficult circumstances.
There is no difference between the value of human and animal life, all sentient beings have souls and are important.There is a very simple reason why humans think they are the most important, because THEY are humans LOL. It's just arbitrary subjective self importance.
So all animals are like mosquitos? that is a total oversimplification. there are all types of diverse animals with different levels of intelligence and moral agency. It's a common misconception that humans are always on top in these regards, but in reality humans have the most complex brains which allows them to both bee the most intelligent and/or compassionate OR they can be the most insane and evil. So depending on which human you are talkinbg about, it could be the WORST and LEAST valuable thing on earth or it could be the opposite. For example Hitler is worth less than a mosquito, but a good person is definately worth much more morally because they have moral agency and empathy, see how this works? My dogs are way more compassionate than a lot of humans.
I would definitely agree with this - it seems to be almost instinct to assume that we are the most important beings in existence. We used to believe the earth was at the centre of the universe, for example. It is just ignorance and an inflated sense of self importance.
Please clarify what you believe on this thread makes me appear stupid? I can assure you that interpretation couldn’t be further from the truth. All the evidence indicates I am relatively intelligent. I have a first in philosophy and a good career. My arguments thus far have not been disproved. If there are some typos in what I’ve written, that does not make me stupid. If you think it does, you might have the wrong definition for stupid.
Is anyone complaining about animals eating other animals? No, so why are we complaining about humans eating animals? Humans are animals, and it's natural to eat meat.
My favourite part of this is that I actually misread it and thought you said, ‘why are we complaining about humans eating humans. Humans are animals, and it’s natural to eat meat.’ This actually makes the same point you made.
Other animals eat animals in order to survive and because it is in their nature. They do not have the ability to think logically and to be ethical. We do, so just like we believe it is ethically wrong to eat other humans and generally avoid doing so, I think we should do the same for other animals, given that we have that ability.
Fair enough. However, I'm not going to become a vegan because currently, it's a choice. We can always breed more animals and, if it comes to it, we can genetically produce all the food we currently eat.
On top of that, plants are living, too. They make their own food, so it could be argued that they're better than us in that aspect. They don't kill anything and yet vegans take their lives away. So, I propose that we genetically engineer our food as well.
It's highly unlikely that you understand your nutritional needs and the accompanying micro and macro nutrient deficiencies that you already have. Making radical changes to your diet is incredibly likely to worsen your existing nutrient deficiencies which will negatively impact your health. For but one macro-nutrient example, if you are a physically active male, it will be incredibly difficult for you to get enough protein, unless you resort to hormone disrupting soy (which also isn't balanced in terms of amino acid profile). For a micro-nutrient example, the lack of heme-iron in the diet may make you anaemic. Heme-iron (from meat) is easy to absorb and even helps us to digest iron from plant sources. While many vegan foods are rich in iron, non-heme iron is incredibly difficult to digest unless accompanied by heme-iron.
If you are considering a vegan diet, you should either do extensive reading or employ a nutritionist, because it is difficult enough to meet your needs on a regular diet (and you doubtlessly already have nutritional deficiencies).
The morally defensive position is that life is to be respected. If you eat plants and not animals you are simply saying that only some life are worthy of respect ;)
I find that it is not an easily morally defensible position at all. The main problem our society currently runs into is the fact that a lot of options, especially organic, and healthy ones, tend to be more expensive than a hamburger at McDonalds, BK, or Wendy's, etc... Acquiring the proper amounts of iron, protein, and other nutrients provided in meat, can become far more expensive. The impoverished community might not be able to acquire these things.
Not to mention, there are people with allergies to particular meat substitutes. What are they to do? When looking from the standpoint of our body makeup, there is a strong physical aspect to the human body, in our canine teeth, that would promote the idea that humans are intended, or evolved to eat meat. It may be dwindling, but it is still there.
I always get such a laugh at hypocrites who supposedly have such compassion for even animals, while voting for a Democrat party that keeps NO RESTRICTION ABORTIONS OF VIABLE UNBORN BABIES LEGAL.
Try witnessing a late term abortion, and get back to me on cruelty. Are you people for real? How lost can you be?
Quite often, vegan ideologies align with the pro choice movement. This is because it is a general belief that we respect living things and avoid pain and suffering where possible. Restricting abortions creates pain and suffering among reluctant mothers, so naturally it does not appeal.
LOL, whaat a hypocritical fool you are. If it were an unborn animal being killed, you would have a problem, but when it's a human baby being killed, you only think about the mother.
