I agree with Joecavalry. atypican your question is not clearly worded nor can you sum up justice and violence in one simple sentence. There are so many situations to consider that your sentence has no logic or body to debate.

1 Self defense

2 Juvenile violence

3 Road rage

4 Mentally insane

5 War

6 This list goes on and on.

Violence can take many shapes and forms, and it can be a profound noticeable action or something that goes undetected.

My first inclination is to say that violence is anything that violates a channel of communication.

I'll share with you a scene I watched in a documentary about the non-verbal language of babies. The test went as follows. A female scientist picks up a baby and holds it at eye level. While maintaining eye contact, she proceeds to make cute baby sounds and silly faces. Very soon, the baby starts giggling. As the baby finds this more and more entertaining, it starts to make sounds and reaches to touch the face of the scientist. With the communication and eye contact established, this game goes on for a few more seconds. Then suddenly, the scientist, while still holding the baby in the same position, turns her face away (sideways) from the baby and becomes neutral. She no longer faces the baby, and she does not respond to anything the baby does. As this happens, the baby first thinks this is part of the game. So it keeps staring at the scientist waiting for her to turn around and play. But she doesn't. Then the baby makes louder noises and touches the scientist's head. But she gets no response. Soon the baby starts crying, and you can see from the body language that the baby is hurt. The baby has been violated.

It took no "dangerous force" nor any form of physical aggression. Just a breakdown in communication. And it seems to me that every time humans resort to profound physical violence, it is because there has been a breakdown in communication.

But if we were to take this further, to include living beings that may not be able to communicate with us, then I would argue that violence is anything that interrupts the natural flow of energy. Cutting a tree for example, is a violent action, because it violates the tree's natural flow of energy.

my definition of violence (in this instance) is anything that causes injury, however slight.

I think the case might be made that violence would be 'justified' when it is preventative of greater violence. (though I think there are still many variables - certainty, imminence, available options, etc.) One presumably non-controversial example might be to grab a child's arm even very quickly and harshly to keep them from running into traffic.

(there are other definitions - for example, the storm was very violent, which seem to be outside the realm of 'justification' per se)

Another example which might be in between the two is - she slammed on the brakes violently, where someone in the car might be hurt, but it avoids a crash that potentially would have caused more harm

A combination of uncommon viewpoints and this blessed curse of my ability to freely blurt out what is on my mind , has on numerous occasions , been the trigger towards some of those hostile or violent situations ive found myself in. :)

"even if that means lowering your own standards" - i simply mean -that personally i have done some rather horrible things in order to defend myself against violence , even getting in first with violence just to get my message accross that it is best not to fuck with me , can be a deterant from a threatening source of violence. I dont go out of my way to be a violent person , i am a happy happy joy joy person until some arsehole behaviour of some kind or another shits on my parade. I am also the sort of person who will go violently to save a person from unfair violence if i see it happening. I dont care if you are a stranger , if i saw you being attacked by thugs i would make a hostile defense for your safety. Not everyone is able to be aggressively violent in order to protect themselves , its just not in them , they may still have instincts , or flight or fight but do they have their brain in order or panic and lose it out of fear or do they try to get instantly physical as if they are in a playground brawl , or do they size up the situation , see what would best work to their advantage for ensuring their safety , and do what is abley neccesary. Sometimes trying to plead or fight is not the best solution. The thing that people often forget is that if someone is intent on hurting you , it is an insult and ought to be taken as such. I have been bashed to a pulp , raped and abused ,many times , but i will never be beaten ,unless i give up. Stooping below my preferred standards , (unfotunately too often) , is why i am alive today. I have had forgivness for most , not that they know it , but forgivness for them lets me avoid seccumbing to an irrepairable wreck hellbent on revenge. I have broken down many times because of violence , but then after time ( a long time ) i sucked it up , cracked the shits , and started sticking up for myself . And i have had less violence for it.

The debate says 'never requires violence.' If I were in such a position where I am to deliver justice, I would most assuredly reatliate OR be the cause of the violence if I were of the belief that they were going to retaliate.

Okay, so us stopping the Nazis from killing Jews wasn't justified because we did it violently...

so what you're saying is the killing of others is violent if you can somehow justify it...

that's a weird definition of violence.

According to the dictionary definition of violence:

: exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in warfare effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent treatment or procedure

2 : injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : outrage

3 a : intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force b : vehement feeling or expression : fervor; also : an instance of such action or feeling c : a clashing or jarring quality : discordance

4 : undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)

killing Nazis would be considered violent, no matter what (unless we use your non-dictionary definition, of course).

I'm finding it difficult to understand what you're saying but I'll try.

I don't see how violence is a violation of an agreement. Sometimes violence IS an agreement. Let's say for example I lent somebody money. I made it clear that I will use violence if that money was not paid back. It was not paid back. I used violence. That is an example of how violence is in no form a violation of an agreement. Infact lack of violence would be.

Violence is the last and most effective means to get a point across (generally although there are many circumstances where it is not).

If I have completely missed the point I apologise and ask you to explain to me as simply as possible what you're trying to get. Thanks

It never is something i would like to have to do. Unfortunately i have had a lot of violence in my life , i have also unfortunately witnessed i lot of violence (but i am lucky , i was born and live in Australia), and i unfortunately have caused violence or been violent to various degrees. Sometimes , even worse than this , sometimes i have been violent with no real cause to be so . Sometimes , this has been in the heat of the moment , sometimes out of jealosy , and when i was younger , usually because i was feeling sorry for myself or was rebelling ; On those grounds , the after taste of that violence was of regret or shame. Sometimes i have been violent and thoroughly felt victorious and glorious for the outcome and Sometimes i feel bad inside for feeling those feelings over a violent situation , which i think could be a moral hint that violence is never justified . Sometimes i have just copped the violence because of being , either outnumbered or overpowered . In the case of outnumbered , i just approach each person individually later on , or if i have no choice to take flight , i give it all my best. In the case of overpowered , in one messed up point in my life , i relied upon some even nastier knights on shining armour , they were a little hard core and i regret ever having that gang in my life , talk about grossly violent , ( at one point i actually considered killing two of the people from this gang out of fear of them and their "ownership" on me )(this was a seperate incidence to that in my above post ) im just glad they are out of my life. Also another rival gang to this , i copped a flogging and a half , the guy tried three times to punch my nose through my brain , stuck a bottle in my leg after missing my you know what , he was taking these swings at me as i leant to pick up my bag , kept smacking me back to standing point , once knocking me on my arse. The other burly hard mugs watching couldnt believe i was still standing , between each hit i would say to him " name , dont hit me " , and each blow would get harder as he got angrier that i wouldnt go down. Then he said he was going to kill me , i just grabbed my bag , looked at him and said "on that note i will be leaving , i got 4 kids that want to see me tomorrow." then i legged it out of there. And left them all , these big hard arse mongrels , standing there dumbfounded. Later i bumped into one of there guys and was invited back for an apology ...no doubt i declined. Once i was in a violent relationship , three weeks into moving to a remote town , my then partner got drunk and after watching "once were warriors" forgot he was halfcast kiwi and decided to do the haka on my head. He had me pinned down , sitting on my chest with his knees pinning my arms he just kept hitting and hitting and smashing my head into the slate floor. I just told him to kill me... he stopped long enough for me to escape him , i ran thru bush to the neighbours , who called police . But i had to go back because my kids were there. The police still hadnt arrived , as i was just getting to the kids room he jumped out and kidney punched me , but despite the 30 odd now welts to my face and head and that i was dropped like a bag of shit , i saw my then two young sons and suddenly this surge of agression gave me enough strength to push him backwards from the room and shut the door , barricade it , throw the pram out the window , grab the boys , and hightail it . the cops finally showed 40 minutes later. I still have this gross aftertaste at the thought that i at one point gave up and told him to kill me. That feeling is more gross than the aftertaste of the violence ive caused and regretted. You know i have just realised that i have far too many accounts of violence to recall , if i dont stop writing now then the page will run out. I just want people to be nice , OR ELSE. I dont need pity for any of my experiences , they have all been learning ones , regardless of being bad or good experiences . Here is a funny violence in my life , just to end this post ,on lighter notes. My grandfather use to get all his grandkids in a broken circle ,each end would hold a wire on this little black box contraption that he made. We would wait eagerly as he wound up its handle , then he would let it go and a bell would ring and the handle would unwind and an electrical current would shoot round the circle through the lot of us. Sounds nasty...but we would always go back for more.

Hi atypican , Hypocrite ? , i dont know. Thats not for me to say.I dont FEEL you are. Maybe im not hypocritical , maybe i just , am self-critical. I am only a little woman ,not very big , my strength is passion and will. Scared ,I use to put up with so much ,now i find violence offensive , which gives me more strength to deal with each individual situation if it arrises. Anyhow i wont ramble on , i wrote more up above. ps Thanks yourself. :)

Atypican, define justice - in your own words.

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I see your point, but violation could be used subjectively. For example, a hobo might feel violated if someone stops him from stealing a loaf of bread that he needs to feed his children. In the eyes of the shop keeper, the hobo stealing the bread is a violation of his/her right to property and ability to make income. Who is in the right and who is in the wrong? Someone must violate someone else in order for order to be maintained. In a perfect system where there is no money, where there is no "incentive" to be productive or do the right thing, I don't think violence would be necessary or even fathomable. But since we have a monetary economy and everyone is brainwashed to think that they need money more than anything, people will be violated. It is the nature of the false scarcity that a monetary system creates. I maintain that in today's world, justice requires violence. I hope that isn't the case forever.