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33
27
Yes, it was a ploy! No, it was sincere!
Debate Score:60
Arguments:23
Total Votes:98
Ended:09/01/08
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 Yes, it was a ploy! (12)
 
 No, it was sincere! (11)

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Was Obama's Recent Euro Trip a Ploy Or a Sincere Gesture?

Why is Obama meeting world leaders now?

Yes, it was a ploy!

Side Score: 33
Winning Side!
VS.

No, it was sincere!

Side Score: 27
3 points

I hate BushCo. Still, I can't help but feel Obama's trip to Europe was exactly that -- a ploy.

What we seem to forget about American (I'll spare y'all the "k") political life is that it's really nothing more than one big ploy to begin with. Every move is calculated, calibrated and analyzed ad infinitum. It's a super-sized game somewhere between Risk and Hollywood Squares. They all play. They always have. They always will -- until we do something about it.

Side: A ploy indeed

I believe this whirlwind tour was a ploy to irritate and frustrate John McCain and the American people. As much as it pains me to say so, I think Barack Obama is acting as though he has already been elected the next President of The United States. I also think that his trip to Iraq and Afghanistan should have been the beginning and the end of this journey. That portion was labeled "Official Government Business" involving his role as a Senator. After that he was on his own but not visiting with wounded soldiers in Germany, when he had every opportunity to do so, is as imprudent and disrespectful as it is debatable! That would have been the sincere gesture I'd be looking for in all this.

Visiting with world leaders in the Middle-East and Europe brings what to the table? Shall we now see Barack Obama as the foreign relations/policy leader we know he isn't? The good Lord knows I'm a Democrat but somehow I just can't help believing that Barack Obama's vision of change is doing what HE wants to do instead of what he should be doing. John McCain has been waiting for his highly thought of Town Hall Meetings with Barack Obama. As an American and a Democrat, I'm wondering why Obama is keeping McCain waiting. The long wait for the primaries to be over so we could get to hear the presumptive candidates debate is long overdue. The primaries ended in early June when Hillary Clinton ended her campaign and I don't think anyone believed Barack Obama would take a sabbatical and head for the hills until "Obama Time" dictated his return.

The ploy to frustrate McCain is frustrating the hell out of me as a person who wishes to have a clear head and heart when I vote in November! I need more information and the way things are going, I'm not at all certain I'll be getting it anytime soon.

Side: A ploy indeed
0 points

Liar. It doesn't pain you to say that at all. You've probably been waiting since faux news first goaded Obama "how come he doesn't go overseas, potential candidates should go overseas," for him to go so you could say more dumb stuff like "he's acting like he's already President." Go ahead. Say what your really mean Kuk, tell everyone you think Obama's an uppity nigger.

McCain says in almost every speach, "When I'm President." While Obama says, "If elected..." Obama has talked about nothing but his vision and plans for the future, McCain's talked about nothing but Obama.

What's visiting world leaders in the Middle East and Europe going to accomplish? I don't know, but I'll bet a lot more than bombing them has done. More than "cowboy" diplomacy. So yeah, maybe you should think of Obama as a foreign diplomat, 'cause we haven't had one of those for like 8 years now.

Yeah dude, Obama's goal was to irritate the American people... wtf? Are you that dumb?

And stop spewing that BS about waiting for town hall meetings. You made up your mind long before Obama was even the presumptive nominee. Watch I can be honest. I made up my mind I was voting democratic this election after Bush's second year in office. See it's easy you comedian. And you know damn well McFud's pony show town hall meetings are a set up. He has every kind of retarded rule on who can and cannot attend. Why not have a stadium hall meeting? What's he afraid of?

Side: Obama
2 points

You poor little man. You're filled with such hatred and self loathing you cannot debate a subject properly without resorting to name calling...and one more thing, NEVER call me a liar! You may now feel free to spew your venom elsewhere...buh-bye.

Side: There is always one that surfaces
2 points

His trip was clearly a political ploy to try to convince the American public that although he has very little political experience, Obama has the diplomacy skills necessary to rekindle relationships with foreign nations that largely hate us as a result of the past 8 years of foreign policy.

His carefully planned and executed trip resulted in many images that will leave a lasting impression upon the voting public, including the speech on the mountain in Amman, Jordan and the estimated 200,000 people in Germany that turned out to hear him speak.

At this stage of the game, I would have to say that pretty much everything Obama or McCain do from here until November should be considered a "political ploy".

Side: A ploy indeed

Lord knows he is an extremely charismatic speaker and hits all the right notes in his speeches here at home. Berlin was the test he failed in political speaking 101! Two very famous and beloved presidents gave speeches there that the German people will never forget. JFK with his "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech and Ronald Reagan with his "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech some years later. As it happens, I am also Berlinerin since I was born there after hostilities ceased, I was also there, albeit flying around in circles, the day JFK gave that speech. When I eventually landed at Tempelhof I thought the city had gone crazy, mad and cuckoo with happiness. Berlin has always loved America since it was the Berlin Airlift that kept them alive when the city was cut off by the Russians.

Barack Obama's speech in front of 200,000 people fell as flat as a pancake. Knowing he was following two great speakers his words should have shone a beacon of light and hope for the world in that city. Instead he gave a political speech despite the fact he identified his presence there was not one born of political happenstance. How disingenuous can he get? Does this sound at all familiar? "People of Berlin – people of the world – this is our moment. This is our time." This speech was given in front of Berlin's Siegessaule, better known to Americans as the Victory Column. It is a Prussian War Monument which, to me, spoke volumes as he stood there speaking.

If this presidential candidate wanted to pull off a political speech made under the guise of being a citizen of the world, he might have chosen the Brandenburg Gate, which is now a symbol of freedom and the most modern symbol of change Berlin has. It can also accommodate the throngs of people that showed up to hear him speak. This was not the speech of the century by any means, but it was hubris by the pound if one can fit that into an empty paper bag!

Side: A ploy indeed

From: Newsmax.com

Date: Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:12 PM

Subject: Obama's Trip: No Bounce, No Flags, No Wounded GIs

Breaking from Newsmax.com

...during Obama's global meet-and-greet tour, ...

As crowds cheered Obama globally, Americans here on the homefront were left wondering if the Illinois senator wants to be their president -- or the president of some other country. [And whether the major U.S. media would at least offer the pretense of objectivity. An MSNBC poll from last week found that 47 percent of the public thought the coverage of Obama's trip was "excessive."]

After Obama's speech to an estimated 200,000 Germans in Berlin, a columnist for Britain's Guardian newspaper began his review this way: "Barack Obama has found his people. But, unfortunately for his election prospects, they're German, not American."

Obama's speech to the Germans left much to be desired, from an American's perspective.

For starters, the crowd's size was beefed up by the fact that the event was billed as a free rock concert for German citizens, with popular musical performers helping to draw the big crowd. Scant U.S. media even noted the warm-up rock draws of reggae artist Patrice and rock band Reamonn.

Then there was the simple stage, with the podium surrounded by three potted plants. Missing was the American flag -- nowhere to be seen. Perhaps Obama's staff might consider the U.S. flag offensive.

...

And there was the spectacle of the presidential wannabe going to a foreign land to apologize about the United States.

Obama told his German audience he was sorry about his country because "I know my country has not perfected itself." [This comment was made in the former seat of Nazi power. A letter to editor published in Obama's hometown Chicago Tribune noted the irony: "While America may not be perfect, there is no reason to apologize to the Germans, architects of the Holocaust."]

As for America's role in saving Germany from the onslaught of Stalinist communism and the subsequent Cold War, there was nothing.

...

As Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby wrote, "Obama seemed to go out of his way not to say plainly that what saved Berlin in that dark time was America's military might.

"Save for a solitary reference to 'the first American plane,' he never described one of the greatest American operations of the postwar period as an American operation at all. He spoke only of 'the airlift,' 'the planes,' 'those pilots.' Perhaps their American identity wasn't something he cared to stress amid all his 'people of the world' salutations and talk of 'global citizenship.'"

The Hollywood-staged Obama event for a man who has yet to ascend to the presidency didn't sit well with all the Germans. Germany's Stern magazine carried the headline "Barack Kant Saves the World."

One of their columnists, Florian Güssgen, wrote: "The man is perfect, impeccable, slick. Almost too slick … Obama's speech was often vague, sometimes banal and more reminiscent of John Lennon's feel good song 'Imagine' than of a foreign policy agenda."

Slickness without substance seemed to be the enduring theme of his trip. Among the little hiccups covered up by the major media, there were several gaffes on the global coronation trip.

Perhaps the most notable -- and reprehensible -- was Obama's decision to cancel a visit to wounded American soldiers at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in southern Germany.

Apparently, the Pentagon informed Obama that since his visit was a political one, the hospital visit would be only open to him and his official Senate staff. This excluded the press and campaign officials.

The Pentagon did offer to allow Obama's campaign plane to land at the nearby U.S. air base at Ramstein. The media also was to be accommodated there.

Without the photo opportunity and his press entourage, Obama declined to meet the wounded soldiers. At first, Obama's campaign claimed to the press he decided to cancel the trip to visit the troops because it was "a trip funded by the campaign," and therefore somehow inappropriate. [What is inappropriate about a presidential candidate visiting wounded troops?]

But the Obama story belies the fact it was only after the Pentagon closed the event to his traveling press, that Obama's campaign nixed the event.

"... he made time to go to the gym, but canceled a visit with wounded troops..."

McCain added that Obama "certainly found time to do other things."

One of those other things Obama did was visit Paris and hold a joint press conference with French President Nicolas Sarkozy, typical of an American president visiting the French capital.

Interestingly, The New York Times quoted Elysee officials that "Obama aides insisted that an American flag not be displayed alongside the French flag because Mr. Obama is only a visiting senator and not the president."

There is no protocol preventing an American official from having the flag displayed when abroad.

America snubbed once again by a lame excuse.

Side: Yes, it was a ploy!

Thank you, Joe for citing some of the articles I hadn't even had time to read and some that I did. The coverage that this trip was given is tantamount to a media circus train with smoke and mirrors hidden in the caboose, just in case!

Side: Yes, it was a ploy!
1 point

Ploy. No such thing as a sincere gestures when we're talking about politicians.

Side: Yes, it was a ploy!
1 point

An old cliche is true here as well - perception becomes reality and politics is unfortunately all about perception. Senator Obama went to Iraq and to the other places he visited to answer Senator McCain's criticism and to strengthen his perceived weakness in foreign policy. Therefore, the argument can be made that it was a ploy.

Like any political ploy, you always run the risk of going too far and angering the people you are trying to reach. I believe this was true with Obama's trip because he made a couple of critical mistakes that the McCain campaign was hoping he would make - he played directly into their hands.

First, he made a grave mistake by canceling his trip to see the wounded troops where he couldn't bring cameras. In other words, he left the perception that he would only go to places where he could get media attention. It was okay for him to have cameras while shooting three pointers, a very Kennedyesque attempt at looking athletic and young but it wasn't okay to go to a tough place like an hospital where he would have to confront his own comments that this is a useless war. Victory McCain because the perception from the Iraq portion of the trip ended badly and Obama has had to acknowledge he probably should have gone.

Second, he proved he is very popular with the German people in a grand, and pictueresque way. The perception he was trying to create is that he is Presidential and the world loves him. And guess what, he is right. However, he failed to realize that no German citizen can legally vote in our Presidential elections. He admitted failures of the US government to a nation that has never fully healed the atrocities levied against the world in WWII - granted, they never will be able to heal those wounds fully.

The elitist left side of America gave him rave reviews for healing the wounds caused by President Bush. However, the blue collar workers who are likely going to decide this election felt that he betrayed the American people and those same people are somewhat proud that Bush has taken a tough stance against the world.

So, yes it was a ploy and a ploy that will hurt up until election day. Remeber that he is Senator Obama and not President Obama - not yet anyway.

Side: A ploy indeed
Naje(432) Disputed
1 point

When it comes to politicians and the "sincerity" of their gestures both at home and abroad, everyone's a skeptic. Rightly so. The name of the game for both Obama and McCain is get my face out to as many people as possible and make it synonymous with voter-responsive propaganda. In other words, create that image and platform constructed with positive phrasing and "American" terms, i.e. "freedom, patriotism", etc. The problem is that the present administration has soured those terms for a number of Americans both at home and abroad who have different principals and disagreed with Bush's code of ethics. For some strange reason, GAs and new legislation (the Patriotic Act and Homeland Security to name the obvious) which were poorly-tuned misnomers turned those who considered themselves to be proud Americans into outsiders confused about why the constitution was being dissected for a war that demanded excessive funding and refused to reveal logistics.

You mention (and thank you for explaining this), that Obama "failed to realize that no German citizens can legally vote in our presidential elections." I read the transcript of his speech on cnn.com where he explained that we all have equal concerns about global warming, renewable energy, Putin's Russia and how a partnership between the US and Europe (economically and socially) must be rebuilt. He didn't go to try and garner votes as you so cleverly surmised, but rather to establish goodwill from the US. For the past eight years (I won't go into Bush Sr. or Clinton), America has been the aggressor in the middle east. We have managed to successfully alienate the majority of foreign first world powers through our avarice and arrogance as you also admitted by citing the positive press that the "elitist left" gave while they followed Obama. If you have read Bush's legislation regarding Global Warming or Wolfowitz's regarding foreign policy, then you would understand why so many of those left-wing "snobs" are concerned for our nation and it's stance in world politics. (For fun take a look at Bush's Clear Skies Act of 2002 where he actually increases pollution but hope to pass the bill by naming it something that he thinks the public will applaud. That's how much he thinks of the intelligence of the "blue collar worker". http://www.sierraclub.org/cleanair/clear_skies.asp) )

You talk about Obama betraying the American people for not visiting Ramstein Air Base but do you know why he didn't do it? Republican candidates, Bush and McCain included, are famous for jumping in for photo ops with wounded troops in order to boost their outward image of "Champion for the everyman", but it's all publicity. I find it ironic that you decided to cite publicity as the reason why Obama didn't visit the hospital because that is exactly the reason why he didn't go. In an interview given immediately after plans were changed, Obama stated that the reason why he didn't go was because he was concerned the visist would be seen as a cheap political move and he did not want to put the troops in that position.

From The NY Times: 7/29/08-

Two days before the visit, Pentagon officials told the campaign that only Obama would be allowed inside the medical center in his capacity as a senator. The adviser who had intended to join Obama, Scott Gration, a retired major general in the Air Force, was told he could not go along because he was a volunteer campaign adviser.

Senator Obama:"That triggered then a concern that maybe our visit was going to be perceived as political, and the last thing that I want to do is have injured soldiers and the staff at these wonderful institutions having to sort through whether this is political or not or get caught in the crossfire between campaigns. So rather than go forward and potentially get caught up in what might have been considered a political controversy of some sort, what we decided was that we not make a visit and instead I would call some of the troops that were there."

It is fishy to me that Obama was permitted in until the Pentagon found out he had a campaign advisor who happened to be in the military attend him to the hospital, but strange things have been happening with this administration since day one anyway.

His journey to Europe was to help better relations between Europe and the US, not to campaign for presidency. Maybe you see that as a selfish ploy, but I could see how attempting to make friends out of people who have seen my country stumble about for the last decade could be a good thing.

Check out this section of his speech. Hopefully you'll see what I'm talking about.

Supporting Evidence: Obama in Europe (video.google.com)
Side: Sincere- stop being cynical
2 points

I think Obama seems to have the ability (which many Americans seems to lack these days) to understand that you can't just bully people into agreeing with you. You can't ways use force. Sometimes you have to use diplomacy, negotiation, compromise, etc, in order to accomplish the things you want.

I truly believe that Obama DOES want change, and he's going the right way about it.

Side: No, it was sincere!

I agree. People should stop using force and give diplomacy, negotiation, compromise, etc., a chance in order to accomplish the things that you want.

Now, why do terrorist find it hard for that concept to penetrate the little sheets they wear on their heads and seep into their brains?

Side: No, it was sincere!
ThePyg(6738) Disputed
1 point

there's a difference between being diplomatic and then just saying shit about your own country in front of an audience that doesn't even like America.

Side: Yes, it was a ploy!
xaeon(1095) Disputed
1 point

...and why do you think that is?

Side: No, it was sincere!
2 points

If you don't who you're going to support for president now, you either don't understand how American politics works or don't know your own mind. Clearly, Obama has to show American voters that he was ready for prime time on the international stage, and he did a good job on this trip.

There is a huge ideological and political gulf between Barack Obama and John McCain, and the differences between the two candidates for president could not be clearer. The person that started this debate clearly supports John McCain and is only pretending to be a Democrat; one clue of that is he uses the same talking points as the Republican National Committee.

Side: Sincere- stop being cynical
2 points

That's the problem omnidave...I am not at all a John McCain fan. The differences between the two candidates was not at issue on this debate. Of course I see the differences between the two, the gulf that separates them is huge. The "talking points" I use are my own and no one else's and I am a staunch Democrat. I am also not a he! The fact that I believe this trip to be a ploy pains me a great deal since it's not how I expected to think or feel.

Side: A ploy indeed
2 points

Was it a ploy, or an event? Because most campaign events are just that; events - a way to attract attention and raise money.

What was the announcement of McCain's running mate before noon the day after Obama's historic - and indeed it was historic - acceptance speech, but a ploy to mute reaction to Obama and focus the media spotlight on McCain? Regardless, ploy or event, it was a masterstroke of political theater. Well played, Mr. McCain.

A close friend of mine lived in Germany for the better part of this decade. He told me he would be ashamed of himself as he amped up the Brooklyn Jamaican accent when conversation turned toward US policy in the run-up to the Iraq War. He said he got tired of defending what he thought, and has proven to be correct, indefensible. About Obama's event he said, "Two hundred thousand people in Berlin were waving American flags... and none of those flags were on fire! That's a bad thing?" So what was so wrong about staging an event on the campaign trail... even if the event was not on native soil? The problem everyone really has, but won't say out loud, is that we all KNOW that John McCain and Sarah Palin could plan an event at the Statue of Victory in Berlin and have no one show. Obama turns out 200K.

Why is my country so afraid of this guy?

Supporting Evidence: How Obama is seen elsewhere in the world. (hk.youtube.com)
Side: Sincere- stop being cynical

This was a sincere gesture in the sense that he was challenged to go there by McCain. Obama couldn't have dreamed a better trip to throw it right back in his face. The prime minister of Iraq endorsed his Iraq plan, and he had an enormous crowd meet him in Berlin all while the entire world was watching him the whole way. When non-xenophobic americans see how well liked Obama is across the world it will send a signal that maybe we get back to being a beacon of hope to the world instead of the new USSR in world opinion.

Side: Sincere- stop being cynical

If it was a ploy, than I think by definition is was as much a ploy as the trips of every other politician who has done the same (that is to say, virtually all of them) knowing full well that their opinion on the matter would not be swayed. Remember McCain's press ridden "stroll through Baghdad"?

Meeting the worlds leaders and visiting places of interests is simply a right of passage that any presidential candidate has to do. To call it a "ploy" is, frankly, grasping at straws. There are much more mature things to criticize him about, so lets leave the cynicism to the lefties.

Side: Sincere- stop being cynical
3 points

I was not being cynical when I wrote my initial argument, Hamandcheese. Meeting world leaders after the election is certainly a right of passage and it's the intelligent thing to do. I am absolutely not grasping at straws on this particular question. I am simply perplexed by his actions at the moment as I have been from time to time in the past. Being a Hillary Clinton supporter I want so much to be able to vote for Barack Obama but I feel something (s) holding me back. It is hardly immature to bring these things up for debate! I happen to be a few clicks to the left of middle on some issues but never so much on the right that I would think of voting for McCain! His "Stroll through Baghdad" has something to do with what, pertaining to this debate?

Side: A ploy indeed
0 points

The US has been moving into globalism on an unprecedented level over the past ten years what with fluid technology, outsourcing and the fuel crisis. With world issues that most of the world considers to be important (global warming, renewable energy) it makes perfect sense that a candidate for presidency should go abroad to promote goodwill. Especially since, for the past eight years, we've done nothing but sour things with the policies enacted by policy-maker Paul Wolfowitz and the current administration.

Attached is his Berlin speech. Read it yourself and see if it fits the bill for progressive unity.

Obama's speech in Berlin addressed issues that have been worrisome and left hanging in back of the Iraq war such as Soviet instability under Putin and Taliban training facilities just outside of Hamburg. He spoke of the world and global policies as future decisions to be made as a combined effort and not dependent on a stubborn self-interested US. Worrying about whether or not Obama went to "distract" people from the US polls is completely irrelevant because he is ahead of McCain. The celebrity issue that McCain is trying to push is ridiculous because McCain is attempting to do the same thing by pushing his past status as a war hero and a true American Guerrilla. Fantastic. Another war monger is exactly what we need.

The present administration has worked very hard to assure American Supremacy and invasion has been the name of the game. Is it so horrible that we have a potential leader who believes that we need to regain universal good graces in order to stabilize the global economy and save American face?

Supporting Evidence: Obama's words (edition.cnn.com)
Side: Evolution
0 points

I don't know if "sincere" is the word I'd use but it certainly was a great strategic move. McCain threw out some jabs that Obama wasn't presidential enough and would be weak on foreign policy. Obama then calls his bluff and goes abroad not only acting “presidential” but re-defines the role on the world stage.

Side: No, it was sincere!