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The existence of Guantanamo bay is unjustifiable. Its an extrajudicial prison. That's completely unconstitutional as it goes directly against the 8th, 5th and 14th amendments.
Im in favor of the constitution applying to ALL people. Thats the entire fucking point of the constitution. And first off, being a radical muslim isnt a crime. Killing people and committing terrorist actions is a crime. And we cant prove that these people did any criminal actions if we dont give them a trial with due process of law. So were literally locking up innocent people with no relation to any terrorist actions at all. Thats immoral as fuck
In many cases, such as with Guantanamo bay and being imprisoned in a cubicle and subjected to a Jackass 3 Cocktail supreme, the means justifies the end. The American government did not establish this facility for no good reason. Muslim terrorists pose a constant threat to the citizens of the United States along with the rest of the civilized world, and this detention centre has, in my opinion and also in the opinions of many senators and security professionals, significantly reduced that threat and thwarted many deadly terrorist attacks. If and when the threat from the so called Islamic State is eliminated then this internment camp along with other anti-Muslim terrorist measures can be abandoned. This undeclared war is being fought against a particularly vicious band of barbaric psychopathic religious zealots and cannot be won by conventional military strategies. Of course there will always be those sanctimonious low lives who will criticize the real people who have dedicated their lives to defending American citizens so the squawking classes can get a free ride and sit in the safety and comfort of their computer room spewing out their''Jackass 3 Cocktail Supreme''
It's not justifiable in the legal sense. I think it's justifiable morally because we are at war with a religious ideology. They want to destroy this nation. The method they chose for battle is surprise attacks on unarmed civilians. If torturing one of these camel cowboys prevents the next attack then it's entirely justified.
So... by that rationale: if the torture does not prevent an attack then it is wrong. You have conditioned the moral legitimacy of torture on the basis of its outcome, which means that whomever engages in it cannot know whether they are being moral or immoral until after the fact. Does that not seem a problematic way to approach morality to you?
It is a complicated situation. Being at war with an ideology is not the same as being at war with a nation. If we were at war with Korea we would go over there and fight them, or they may even come here. The thing is, in that situation the enemy location is pretty much static.
Being at war with a group of people who could be anywhere, even living within our own nation, is a whole different ball game. Also, for the most part they don't seek out military targets. They kill unarmed civilians. I think it's entirely justifiable to torture these cowards whether we gain any information or not.
Most of that is non-responsive to my point, except the last sentence where you amended your earlier remark to account for my objection. Which I take as tacit concession, as well as strongly suggestive that you have not really thought through the ethics of the situation very deeply.
The situation is irrelevant to my criticism of the logical integrity of your ethics. Choose any other situation where the ethical argument is being made that the outcome determines whether an action is justifiable, and my objection still stands. So, yes, your statement was largely non-responsive since it was focused on trying to educate me about the situation.
I am not surprised that logic and the philosophy of ethics are falling outside your comprehension.
I do appreciate logic, but I certainly do not think it is "precious". As for ethics, I am a value nihilist who holds ethics in little regard. (The irony is I understand ethics better than you, who actually believe in it.) I certainly do not expect any of this to "save my ass from terrorists", nor did I suggest as such. I also never stated my own position on Gitmo, but I suppose making assumptions is easier than actually thinking up responsive comments.
I responded. You may not like what I said but I responded. You see, there is no point in trying to reach me with your logic. I hate Muslims. Moderates or Radicals. I don't care. You are pouring your logic into a black hole of hate.
Well lets just take a look at the hypocritical pious Left when they scream for criminal right's.
These same people support killing viable late term Babies for any reason up to birth. They dismember the Babies or use harsh chemicals to kill, and these same people cry over water boarding war criminals? Water boarding kills or mames no one!
Could there be any bigger hypocrites on this planet?
Actually we are NOT at war with Islam. They are at war with us. Well, even that's not completely true. Only a very small radical sect of Islam is at war with us. ISIS and other radical jihad factions. They comprise less than 1% of all Muslims on the planet.
As far as Gitmo? I think that probably a whole lot of war crimes have been committed there. My brother was a Marine guard there for two years and told me some pretty unsavory stories on the treatment of their prisoners. Many of whom were never even formally charged. Somebody once said that you can tell a lot about the Integrity of a Nation by how they treat their prisoners.
If this is true Gitmo and the history there does not bode well for our Integrity. If torture of a proven guilty terrorist can save future lives I admit that I am for it. But in the same way I am for abortion. It is a very regrettable action, but one that is sometimes better for the Greater Good and the future.
If another country did to our prisoners, our innocent ones who were never charged and never proven to commit terrorism, what we have done to hundreds of Muslims at Gitmo we would declare that to be an act of war.
Again: the USA is NOT at war with Islam. Ask your president. Rather, we are at war with ISIS, which comprises a tiny tiny faction of that religion. Many Muslims even disown ISIS.
The police take 10 gang members into custody, if from those 10 only one of them is a bloodthirsty amoral killer, the rest of them are still his associates. They knew what he was doing, even if they never broke a single law.
If you knowingly associate with terrorists you deserve whatever you get. You should have turned them in when you still could have.
Is it justifiable if we get completely innocent people and even kill innocent people? Many people who went to Guantanamo were political prisoners from other countries. We had Saudi Arabia our "ally" send us terrorists. But instead they just sent us their political prisoners some of whom were completely innocent.
We did hypothermia torture to some of them where we sprayed them with water and left them in a cold locker over night. One guy died from it and we come to find he wasn't tied to any terrorist group at all.
Just because people wind up in Gitmo doesn't mean theyre the right people or even linked to the right people. But I'm Gitmo there is no due process of law to figure out who is really who were after. So we wasted time torturing and killing innocent people for information they don't have. Often they would give false information they think we wanted to hear just to get us to stop torturing them. Torture is one of the least effective ways of gathering Intel.
Is it still acceptable to torture and kill completely innocent people?
How do you know we got the wrong people ? Just go on and admit Progressive you support Radical Muslims ! If you like them so much why don't you go and live under Sharia Law in a Muslim Country !
What does Vegan have to do with torture of Radical Muslims ? What needs to be done is bomb those Sand Rats into complete submission. Kill them all Moms ,Dads , Grandpa , Grandma and kids. Eliminate the threat !
Because weve gotten the wrong people in the past and most likely have some innocent people there right now.
How does that make me supportive of radical muslims? Im supportive of innocent people being freed from prison where theyre kept with no trial to even prove that theyre guilty.
Oh so now the Progressive says Radical Muslims are innocent ? Now that is a SHOCKER right there ! Hello BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Youre the one who is so paranoid about the government coming for your guns and being so corrupt. If you think the government is so corrupt how can you not see how there is definitely the possibility that guantanamo is holding people who havent committed ANY crime or terrorist action! Until a radical muslim actually commits a crime then of course they are innocent. And how do you know every person in guantanamo is a radical muslim or even a muslim at all? We have so many different people in there and none of them have been formally charged with an actual crime or have been proven to have committed a crime. I am not saying they all ARE innocent im saying they might be and we have no way of knowing if they are or not. We know weve had innocent people there in the past so we know were not always getting the right people. Do you have literally no concept of what justice is at all?
So all the Radical Muslims in GITMO are now innocent ? What might you say about the LGBT crowd that is getting killed in Muslim Countries ? Are you not concerned with their rights being abused ? Come on Progressive you must make a stand but i understand your to busy riding the fence because you don't know how to make a choice !
I literally just said NO i do NOT mean that they are all innocent for sure. But we dont know of all of them who is innocent and who is guilty. Because they never had trials to actually prove if they are guilty of not. So while they are not ALL innocent SOME definitely ARE innocent. Understand?
What about the LGBT community? Yeah theyre heavily mistreated. Yes we should continue to fight and kill isis. Yes we should continue to fight people who do terrorism. And yes we should speak out against the mistreatment of gay people. But what does that have to do with guantanamo? How does wanting to free innocent people from prison somehow make me not in favor of LGBT rights in muslim countries?
So as a Progressive you are more concerned with the rights of Radical Muslims in this country than you are the rights of the LGBT in Muslim Countries ? Why is it you Progressives stay continually confused ?
No im concerned about the rights of INNOCENT people AND the rights of LGBT people in muslim countries. I am for BOTH of those things. Why the fuck do you keep presenting it like i cant be for both of those things? Why are those two things contradictory? You make literally no fucking sense at all.
You never made any claim to LGBT rights in Muslim Countries at all. You were just worried about the Constitutional Rights of Radical Muslims in GITMO ! You got to keep it straight Progressive but that is hard for you to do in the "State of Confusion" where you Progressives live !
Yes i did make claims. I said i support the rights of LGBT people in muslim countries. I also said we should combat and kill terrorists like ISIS. I also said we should fight against islamic ideology and prevent islam from subjugating people. I made all those claims now for the 2nd time.
I am worried about the rights of INNOCENT people. If someone has not committed any crime and has no connection to terrorist groups at all then it is not right to hold them in prison without a trial! How does being in favor of freeing innocent people from prison make me not able to also support gay rights in muslim countries? You have not demonstrated why there is any contradiction in those two things.
There is literally no confusion there. They are two different, non contradictory stances. Not sure what your problem is with being able to understand that
You aren't doing much to support the LGBT rights in Muslim Countries but you sure are harping on the Constitutional Rights of Radical Muslims in this country. So where do you stand Progressive ? Yes you are confused but that is to be expected from a Progressive.
What am i supposed to do for LGBT people in muslim countries? Go there and liberate them? Im also not able to do anything for the innocent people in GITMO either. But that doesnt change my opinion that they need trials.
For the hundreth time. I stand for both things. THEY ARE NOT CONTRADICTIONS. I support LGBT rights in muslim countries and i support getting innocent people out of GITMO. Two different things. I support both 100%. Thats where i stand. You are the confused fuck who cant seem to understand that
Why is it you are more concerned with the Constitutional Rights of Radical Muslims then you are LGBT rights in Muslim Countries ? I haven't as to yet noticed any word of the Constitutional Rights of the LGBT in Muslim Countries expressed by you !
I'm not more concerned with either. I'm concerned with both equally. Difference is I as a voter can actually fight against Guantanamo bay being open. I can't do a thing to change another countries laws.
If the gay people in other nations came to the us they would be protected by our constitution but they're not here so what do you want me,to do? They have the human right of being treated as human beings. We might be able to take action through the UN.
Now what is your point? You're trying to make it seem like I favor radical Muslims over gay people when the two issues are completely unrelated and my stances on them arent contradictory.
Well lets just take a look at the hypocritical pious Left when they scream for criminal right's.
These same people support killing viable late term Babies for any reason up to birth. They dismember the Babies or use harsh chemicals to kill, and these same people cry over water boarding war criminals? Water boarding kills or mames no one!
Could there be any bigger hypocrites on this planet?
Two wrongs don't make a right and we've never get information out of terrorist we torture (which waterboarding is!). Torture is worthless because the person being tortured will say anything to make it stop. If you think they deserve and it should continue despite us not getting any information out of them, than you're ignoring what the constitution says about it. Remember no cruel and unusual punishment? You have to be consistent, you can't ignore one injustice just because you feel the other side is ignoring a bigger one.
It is common knowledge that waterboarding gave our nation information that finally led to getting Bin Laden.
I will show the hypocrisy of the Left every time they piously claim to be the compassionate party. They are much more evil than the Right.
I don't consider water boarding an injustice when the people are brutal murderers. Maybe you forgot about capital punishment for our murderers? I think terrorists are getting off easy with water boarding.
No, it is not true that waterboarding gave our nation information that got bin laden. I don't believe capital punishment works as a deterrent, and I believe the criminal justice system should work to rehabilitate someone not punish them. You can't be a strict constructionist who believe the government should take our guns, but be okay with our government torturing people.
Capital punishment is not only a deterrent, it is a 100% sure way to stop that murderer from ever murdering again, whether his victim is a guard or inmate in prison. Life without parole allows the murderers to possibly keep killing in the prison.
I am all for Government keeping all innocent law abiding citizens safe, and to use water boarding or capital punishment to do so.
You on the other hand worry more for the killers than our most innocent babies.
How on earth do you sleep at night. Your priorities are ALL SCREWED UP!
I'm pro choice up to 10 weeks, after that I'm only okay with it in rape cases or if the child will have any disabilities. Or if there is high risk involved.
Have you read the many posts I have written to phonies like you who say you only support 1st trimester abortions while voting for Democrats who support no restriction abortions(FOR ANY REASON).
You're absolutely correct about the effectiveness of waterboarding as a source of intelligence. Until it was stopped by the P.C, low lives, waterboarding was allegedly used occasionally in Northern Ireland where it was reportedly an invaluable source of information resulting in preventing a number of terrorist acts and frustrating the I.R.A's attempts of blowing the Northern Irish people and their commercial infrastructure to kingdom-come. Like I have said, there will always be the sanctimonious filth trying to claim the moral high ground from the comfort of their homes. I was part of a group of people who made hospital visits to bomb victims who had no family nor friends to come and see them. On one such visit I was talking to a older lady who was still affected by her pain numbing morphine. It was with stunned with horror when I realized that the nice neat, flat bed cover was where her legs should have been. If such unorthodox interrogation techniques could have prevented just this one instance then, ''THE MEANS DEFINITELY JUSTIFIES THE END''.
"Justified" is the tool you use to let yourself sleep at night. "Morally Correct" is a gray area produced by the culture you live in, to protect the culture you are in. and since those terrorists wanted the death of the culture I live in, then it was justified, and morally correct. Next question?
The USA is a free society with civil rights and which asserts itself as the preeminent world leader in that form of societies. There is no way whatsoever to justify torture by a society such as ours unless we are no longer going to stand for those principles.
If instead we want to become a Russia or China or N Korea then so be it. THEN you can justify torture. Tell you what, if you put Trump in charge then we just might go that way.
Well lets just take a look at the hypocritical pious Left when they scream for criminal right's.
These same people support killing viable late term Babies for any reason up to birth. They dismember the Babies or use harsh chemicals to kill, and these same people cry over water boarding war criminals? Water boarding kills or mames no one!
Could there be any bigger hypocrites on this planet?
Except for the fact virtually all the free societies with constitutional civil rights allow abortion because the fetus in not considered independently entitled to civil rights. The nations outright banning all abortions are the Vatican, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Chile. Those are not bastions of civil rights.
It's not hypocrisy when legally 99% of the developed world agrees abortion is a legitimate option for women.
LOL, you just got done saying that America is a beacon for the world to follow, and then you talk about how butchering late term viable babies is ok because the world does it?
I would bet most of the wolrd is not as extremly radical with their abortion laws. I'm sure most of those nations do not allow no restriction abortions as nine of our states do.
THE WORLD IS OBVIOUSLY SELFISHLY EVIL AS WELL!
That is never an excuse to say others do something. I guess the nations that kill Gay people are nations to follow?
I guess what Russia or China does to it's people is something to follow?
Get real, America once was the light of the world..... no longer since porgressives came to power.
Damn Straight! I love how arguments with Fromwithin always turn to the topic of abortion. Like you could be talking about nuclear energy vs renewable and he'll find a way to tie abortion into the discussion.
In a society where a democratic system of government has been established since it's inception there is no chance of the United States of America ever becoming akin to one of the totalitarian states you have mischievously suggested. Freedom is, and will remain a congenital characteristic of the American Nation's psyche'. Donald Trump ''tells it as it is'' and his interpretation and proposed anti terrorism measures to combat the ever present and growing Muslim terrorist threat makes good sense to me. Trump is a patriot, but unfortunately in most western nations, including the United States, the word patriot has been twisted by the P.C, brigade to mean racist.
''The U.S.A., is a free society'';- free to do what? Participate in a marathon race in Boston? Go out for a recreational evening in San Bernardino? Go out for a social get together with like minded people in Orlando? Go to your place of work at the Twin Towers in New York? Wake up and smell what it is you're shovelling. Freedom has to be fought for and, if necessary, maintained by the use of unorthodox measures. Leave the fight against terrorism to the nation's lawfully appointed security forces and you stick to knitting 'Aran sweaters' for your granny.
