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Debate Score:24
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Nomoturtle(780) pic



What do you believe about justice?

so, I found a rather bulky scenario which was posed against the concept of Justice, and thought it was really interesting albeit quite depressing. Thought I'd share it. Tell me what you think:

Here, the world's saddest woman is walking. Her face is a little ugly, but she has a lot of make-up on.
Right then, Gum that somebody thoughtlessly spat from a roof landed on top of the woman's head. Oh, no! she was on her way to a blind date for her 20th time that day. She kept getting dumped so she was thinking that it'd be the last and was going to the meeting place, but she couldn't see the man with gum in her hair. So she stopped by a hair salon and cut her hair, but her hair was still a mess. 
The man meant to be her blind date, without even waiting for an hour, quickly left as if he had a sudden life-or-death situation. The woman was completely dumped, and it suddenly starts to rain as well. Everybody Else had umbrellas, but she didn't. She was so excited about the blind date that she forgot to bring one. 
Just then she twists her ankle over a can someone left on the floor and falls, screaming, to the floor. The people around her started laughing their heads off watching her. 
At that point, on the verge of collapse, seething with self-hatred, the final blow hits her. On the street, with her messed up hair, in the midst of the laughter, she receives a text as follows: "You know how the company is nowadays right? I'm sorry, you don't have to come into work tomorrow. I'll be sure to get your next paycheck in next month." 
That night, after drinking alcohol all alone, she rode a taxi to a bridge. And she stopped the taxi. And that was her last moment.

well that's the story as best as I could give it. The question is then asked, whom is to blame for the death of the woman?
The author proceeds to give their view that all people have killed at some point or another, and that "I've never done a single bad thing" can neither be true, nor proven by other people if it were.
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5 points

The woman is responsible for her own death. You have to look at intent. Intent is what separates a willful murder from an unfortunate accident. Obviously the guy who threw gum off a roof did not intend to kill anyone. They probably didnt even intend to hit someone with it. Can you really say that person holds any responsibility for his simple careless action? Justice is assigning an appropriate punishment to a given crime. And when youre assigning that punishment you have to consider a multitude of factors. The severity of the crime and intent are both key factors. Now if we look at each person in this story none of the people involved committed any severe crime even if all their actions together compounded. You also have to look at intent and clearly none of these people intended to make someone want to kill themself. The woman is the only person who intended to kill herself and was the only person who undertook the severe actions of doing it. She is wholly responsible for her own death.

I agree. The woman is responsible, nobody else. Although some of the other people involved such as those who laughed at her could be accused of, at most, being rude and unkind, they in no way forced her to kill herself, nor in all likelihood would they have acted so callously if they thought their actions would cause her so much distress for her to do so.

It is also a false claim that all people have killed. Perhaps it could be said that we all have been unkind or uncaring or even cruel at one time or another, but this is indeed a far cry from pre-meditated murder with malice aforethought.

The story in the header also has very little if nothing to do with the idea of justice. it is a strange tale, and not a good one at all for a discussion on the topic of Justice.

Jace(5146) Disputed
2 points

While intent differentiates the willful murderer from the accidental one, there nevertheless are numerous common and popular conceptions for regarding negligence and other unintended harms as both criminal and immoral. Just because there is a difference does not necessarily mean that the one is not an injustice or failure of responsibility. All you have demonstrated is that we might consider such acts less unjust or less irresponsible.

2 points

In my view, there is no actual thing as justice. What is "just" is a matter of subjective and generally popular opinion. Owing to the stigma against suicide and the tendency of many people to overlook their tacit complicity in social systems that frequently contribute to mental health issues and often fail to support people through them, the majority of persons will say that the women in this scenario is solely or very primarily responsible for her death. This assumes that we act in isolation, though, and that callous neglect is permissible. While I personally do not think that anything is owed to anyone, this is not a popular opinion which places the assumption of permissibility at odds with popular narratives of utilitarian social justice.

1 point

Everyone experiences a similar situation like that in their daily lives. However, she made the choice to jump. Life was clearly not fair to her, but the bad day she had, was due to chaos and chance, not intent.

The reality is that chaos doesn't pick sides, thus, it cannot be unfair. The guy shouldn't have thrown gum off the roof, so he committed a crime of negligence and I believe she would be in the right to charge him if she could prove it, however, he didn't mean to hurt the girl. Furthermore, she chose to walk away.

The guys laughing were pricks and that is unacceptable. However, they weren't trying to hurt her specifically. They would have laughed at anyone.

Her getting fired, well, unfortunate, however, everyone gets fired. I have even, because of company politics in a lot of cases.

It was the girl's choice to get drunk, it was the girls choice to jump. She could have done a lot of things. The events were due to chaos, and unfortunately, it was just a bad day for her. Chaos isn't necessarily fair, but then again, since I don't believe in god, it doesn't pick sides either.

You can't pick how you look, how much money you were born into, your genetics, or anything else ... sometimes, the world is just screwed up.

Jace(5146) Disputed
1 point

Out of curiosity, are you a determinist?

Aries(37) Clarified
1 point

Ummm ... You use new words. I suppose to a degree we all are, aren't we? Problems arise due to past events. Unless someone steps up to handle them, they will grow and become worse problems.

1 point

its her fault and their fault if they treated her badly on purpose which made her commit suicide. I think if someone tries to make someone suicidal by taking away their happiness by mistreating them then they are to blame for the suicide to the extent that they caused it. if they would of committed suicide anyways then they didn't cause it.

1 point

I think to make an assumption that one has "never done a bad thing to anyone" at all in their life is a bit self-absorbed. At some point, rather directly or indirectly you may have been the cause of or contribution to someone's bad day. Maybe you weren't paying attention to a street sign and blew through a stop that made someone slam their breaks or maybe you took that last packet of marshmallows when...gosh darn it, the lady that was just two steps behind you needed that for her child's birthday.

In this instance the woman is responsible for her death. The contributing factors were done with neither malice or intent and I'm certain if someone had known then someone would have reached a hand out. Justice would be met more if say that person spitting gum had intentionally zero'd in on her and done it vindictively or someone had thrown the can at her instead of just negligently leave it. While I think the people who laughed at her may have some karma coming their way there was nothing illegal in any singular action with the exception of littering really. Perhaps the man leaving like there was a life or death situation really did have a life or death situation, maybe his child was sick or something happened that warranted it. I mean if you ask us to take into account all of the bad that happened to her maybe it requires a broader view of those lives who impacted her.

1 point

That's a fucked up story and it has little to do with the concept of justice.

Nobody to blame for her death but her. People who cannot weather life's vicissitudes without resorting to suicide are probably better off dead, as they don't offer much to the gene pool from which Evolution must dip into.

I believe in justice. Including street justice. Seen plenty of it in my home town of Detroit. Meted some out myself when need be. On the ice too.

I am also pro death penalty. The only problem with it in my country is that its not used enough. Not often enough nor expediently enough. Nobody should ever have to wait on Death Row for more than a month or so.

Rapists and chomo's should be hung in Town Squares. And it should be televised. Drug Dealers should be thrown into a pool of sharks. All of this could be on the Execution Channel.

See if the crime rate does not drop. I know it would.

As usual, I truly hope this helps.

adios from CR................SS

1 point

It seems to me that Justice Works in a Moral Climate.

Bing's definition of justice: "fairness · justness · fair play · fair-mindedness · equity"

When people create an environment, an atmosphere where immorality flourishes chances are you will find very little justice. People should come to a point where they recognize what is just and what is unjust. For those of you who have seen the movie "Carrie" do you believe what her so-called friends did to her as being just? Do you believe if someone found some incriminating photographs of you and posted them on the Internet is that just (I mean they had the photographs so why shouldn't they post them?)

Do you feel that someone who has a financial means to go golfing and boating with the boss of your job deserves that next promotion rather than you?

I see justice not just simply an individual event but rather a mindset that the majority of the people determines what is fairness and what is not!

IAmSparticus(1516) Clarified
2 points

But almost everyone has their own concept of what all constitutes "fairness" and morality. So how do you create a climate of fairness and morality for everyone?

wisegrip(132) Disputed
1 point

Since it's you I have to ask the question are you really interested in the solution or merely focused on arguing point counterpoint?