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Debate Info

38
49
Communism Capitalism
Debate Score:87
Arguments:45
Total Votes:100
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 Communism (18)
 
 Capitalism (22)

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DrawFour(2662) pic



Which is better for people communism or capitalism?

Communism

Side Score: 38
VS.

Capitalism

Side Score: 49
3 points

False dichotomy; they can both go disastrously wrong. Other variables (e.g. representation, rights, non-corruption, etc.) are far more important.

False ideals; neither has ever actually existed in a pure form. The only economies are mixed economies, and the more mixed are usually the more successful.

That all being said, I think a successful communism-like economies are more oriented towards people rather than companies which generally imbues greater social stability and individual happiness.

Side: Communism
1 point

A' false Dichotomy' and mixed economies I agree with, but I disagree that communism- like economies are more oriented towards people rather than companies. May I point out that although countries like China are thriving and yes...communist, they are in some aspects although this may be misconstrued; less developed in public health care, and most importantly in human rights which are much more prevalent in Western society. Furthermore, 'individual happiness' - care to elaborate??

Side: Communism
Jace(5222) Clarified
1 point

That would be why I used the word "successful" before "communism-like economies". Obviously, a nation with a communist-leaning economy that is also politically conservative and/or dictatorially inclined will have other issues. China has a left-leaning economy which I would contend does ameliorate corporate influence more than would occur if it were a right-leaning economy; this, though, is mitigated by the effect of a less democratic political environment. The economy does not exist in isolation from politics and social influences. For all that you can point to China, I would point to the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Sweden which have both more left-leaning economies and politics than, say, the United States... as well as ranking better by just about every variable you care to consider.

Side: Communism
2 points

Communism, as defined by Karl Marx, is a stateless and classless society. It was the sole form of human organization before agriculture, and has existed in the industrial age during the Spanish revolution and the Russian uprising. Successful communist societies were made up of people who were like-minded and capable of co-operation.

Communism eliminates overlapping functions, such as two phone companies with separate networks running at the same time, by co-operation. The same utility is achieved with less work, and the inefficiencies of state intervention would also be avoided.

For all these inefficiencies, capitalism has the benefit of actually creating a common value or goal: money. People who'd otherwise hate each other co-operate to compete in the market. Capitalism can do a great deal of good, especially if effects on non-humans are not seen as relevant. However, I can't conclude that it's the more efficient system of the two.

Side: Communism
2 points

To tell you the truth NEITHER! Communism kills people when it goes wrong but capalism kils people when it goes right! They both exploit people again because communism doesn't work like the thorey of it! Socialism which is between capalism-people are aloud to own privite proparity and communism-you can't exploit people as much and the. Poor get help! Is the best! Communism is only a little better because of the thory of it! Capalism's purpose is to exploit I believe but capalism works better but capalism is exploitation and so sochallism is best!

Side: Communism
Scoots(33) Disputed
2 points

I agree but please cite one example of a place in the world where Communism has gone right... it always goes wrong because it simply doesn't work.

Side: Capitalism
Beardontcare(47) Disputed
1 point

Communism worked adequately well during the Spanish revolution. Also, hunter-gather societies exhibit many communistic traits.

Side: Communism
1 point

Capitalists hate communism . Yet they depend on their goods being made in communists countries where workers can be kept in line.

Side: Communism
-1 points

communism!! this reminds me of history class haha but without Stalin, Lenin, and Trotsky it'd be great if they magically came back alive to discuss stuff like this xD anyways... COMMUNISM would be better for people just because ^.^

Side: Communism
Scoots(33) Disputed
1 point

Yeah that would be fantastic if they came back... and killed tens of millions more people. That would be fantastic!!!! Thanks for that... just because ;)

Side: Capitalism
1 point

you're right and I'm not a commie or a socialist now for regulated capalitism no exploiting workers but no commie stuff! No dictators I HATE north Korea I support capalism now! But we shouldn't be greedy! CHINA IS THE WORST! Ps what do you think about the (UN) Useless Nonsense picks on Israel ALL THE TIME RIGHT! Sorry

Side: Capitalism
5 points

The problem with communism is that there is no incentive to improve societal conditions or intellectual advancement. Equality sounds good on the surface but in practice but without advancement, innovation, and a reason to strive for higher ideals a society will stagnate and die. "From each according to his ability to each according to his need" doesn't work because its the needy and unable who benefit the most from the arrangement, hence why would I work hard to make a living when I could let you do the work for me and still have the same exact standard of living as you do? I have no reason to do so when I could simply kick back, relax, and let those willing to work pay my bills. Of course, this results in no one being willing to work beyond the minimum they might be required to since there is no incentive for me to do so.

The only way communism would somewhat work would be in a system where all the jobs are about the same in terms of difficulty and people would be forced to work. China's forced labor camps are a great example of that but China has seen the failure of its system and is now moving very aggressively in a capitalist direction while the United States instead is moving more toward communism. The end result will be China replacing the United States as the world's chief superpower unless we learn from the mistakes of the past.

Capitalism isn't equitable, it's not meant to be... but it works. Under capitalism people are compensated based on the societal value of their contribution which means the more they contribute the better they live. If you don't contribute anything you die, simple as that. Equitable? No. Fair? Yes.

Side: Capitalism
Beardontcare(47) Disputed
3 points

"From each according to his ability to each according to his need" doesn't work because its the needy and unable who benefit the most from the arrangement

The problems you present are not problems with the principle, but with your interpretation of it. During the Spanish revolution for instance, every hour of work was seen as equal in value, and netted a coupon which could be exchanged for certain goods.

The needy and the unable benefit most, because society has a duty to protect them. Anyone who chooses not to live their life in a way that is constructive and moral, is going to look back and ask: why did I bother living at all?

If you don't contribute anything you die, simple as that. Equitable? No. Fair? Yes.

Those who're truly "unable" haven't chosen their disabilities. Are people accountable for things they haven't chosen? This is not even a frontier of debate. What you propose has nothing to do with fairness.

Side: Communism
Scoots(33) Disputed
3 points

"The problems you present are not problems with the principle, but with your interpretation of it. During the Spanish revolution for instance, every hour of work was seen as equal in value, and netted a coupon which could be exchanged for certain goods."

The work itself was that of a soldier and as even you mentioned was fairly short lived. Rebels really need to work together to win a war and coupons were used to ration resources. Every modern military does this to an extent... pay based on rank (not occupation) is another form as are the functions of a Quartermaster- this makes sense since all jobs contribute equally to a unit's survival- without warriors you have no defense, without doctors no way to heal the injured, without spies no way to anticipate an attack so all jobs are equally important to survival.

"The needy and the unable benefit most, because society has a duty to protect them. Anyone who chooses not to live their life in a way that is constructive and moral, is going to look back and ask: why did I bother living at all?"

I believe society has a responsibility to help the needy become contributors but not help the deceitful become chronic abusers. Teaching someone a trade is much better than keeping them dependent on handouts they didn't earn. A life without honor or integrity has no purpose.

"Those who're truly "unable" haven't chosen their disabilities. Are people accountable for things they haven't chosen? This is not even a frontier of debate. What you propose has nothing to do with fairness."

Its actually a huge frontier for debate. People are held accountable for things they haven't chosen all the time like being born with a certain skin color, having to pay taxes for policies you don't agree with, or being involved in an accident... just a few examples. Society has a responsibility to correct disabilities wherever possible and to not prolong the suffering of someone who is fully unable. Most disabled persons can and do contribute to society. Providing for the elderly is providing for someone who already made their contributions to the elderly previously- we all grow old.

Side: Capitalism

Communism pretty much always ends up with the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions of people and it is not like even works any way. It wasn't until China developed a capitalist style economy that it became successful.

Side: Capitalism
Beardontcare(47) Disputed
2 points

The reason why China and the USSR are associated with communism has only to do with US and soviet propaganda. The question isn't if capitalism is good for people, it's whether communism is better.

Side: Communism
Jace(5222) Disputed
2 points

Any evidence to back that assertion beyond an oversimplification of the history of China? Not only have you not given any basis for your claim, the claim itself is inadequate because you have not demonstrated that the problem in the majority of cases was communism itself rather than an issue with the system of government or other variables.

Your argument is also rather too convenient in that it blatantly ignores the hundreds of thousands or millions of people have died under predominantly capitalist regimes.

Side: Communism
4 points

I'm just going to lay out why I think that communism is outdated, for a lack of better wording, and why a capitalistic system will work better for our society today.

Very early into the first civilizations, which solely consumed agricultural produce and the occasional animal product, there wasn't much need for a system of private property or markets, as people made just enough to sustain their own breath, and often may have needed to assist someone after their crops failed (flooding droughts), they were looted, consumed by animals, etc.

People generally had to really only worry about keeping themselves fed, and there would be no such thing as risk aversion of capital, after all, the only industries that you could invest in were your own farm, you could hardly demand other products much less produce them yourself, otherwise one might be able to slowly overtake their neighbors in time of financial crisis via usury and soon seize a disproportionate amount of belongings or land (other natural inequalities presented in inequalities in land productivity and inherited wealth, but to a lesser extent).

ie When setting up community in an uninhabited land with a handful of people equipped only plows and furs, your first task isn't going to be tuning monetary policy.

Later on, people began to develop other trades, more importantly, people were able to specialize in trades other than growing their own food. Still, as consistent with the LTV, which many market socialists (namely mutualists) espouse, labor would at that time been still a very good metric for value, and property rights assigned to possession would've allowed some degree of exchange and competition that society could handle without crippling inequality.

Wealth of Nations Book 1, Chapter 4, Page 45

IN THAT EARLY and rude state of society which precedes both the

accumulation of stock and the appropriation of land, the proportion between the quantities of labour necessary for acquiring different objects, seems to be the only circumstance which can afford any rule for exchanging them for one another. If among a nation of hunters, for example, it usually costs twice the labour to kill a beaver which it does to kill a deer, one beaver should naturally

exchange for or be worth two deer.

It is natural that what is usually the produce of two days or two hours labour, should be worth double of what is usually the produce of one day’s or one hour’s

labour.

If the one species of labour should be more severe than the other,

some allowance will naturally be made for this superior hardship;

and the produce of one hour’s labour in the one way may frequently exchange for that of two hour’s labour in the other.

Or if the one species of labour requires an uncommon degree of

dexterity and ingenuity, the esteem which men have for such talents, will naturally give a value to their produce, superior to what would be due to the time employed about it.

Such talents can seldom be acquired but in consequence of long application, and

the superior value of their produce may frequently be no more

than a reasonable compensation for the time and labour which

must be spent in acquiring them.

In the advanced state of society, allowances of this kind, for superior hardship and superior skill, are commonly made in the wages of labour; and something of the

same kind must probably have taken place in its earliest and rudest period.

In this state of things, the whole produce of labour belongs to the labourer; and the quantity of labour commonly employed in acquiring or producing any commodity, is the only circumstance which can regulate the quantity of labour which it ought commonly to purchase, command, or exchange for.

Now, we have a great variety of industries, and wealth inequality can exist without depriving the needs of that many citizens, so we must look to allowing what the rich normally do with their disposable income, invest! With this, the rich can buy out large quantities of land and other goodies (and have the best incentive to make industry as productive as possible).

The amount of resources in our society can sustain unequal pay and competition, and we can begin to set up a governing apparatus that allocates private property as needed to smooth out imperfections in the market (slump in aggregate demand, stickiness in wages, exchange of currency that is too low or "tight" to fit a much larger market) AND we can handle further inequality through investment due to a greater quantity of wealth.

You need both to make capitalism ideal, and need to only have the requirement of markets and not the sustainability required to maintain private propety to form a non-capitalistic market.

Side: Capitalism
Beardontcare(47) Disputed
1 point

wealth inequality can exist without depriving the needs of that many citizens

The argument is regarding what's good for people in general, and not citizens of a particular nation. What you'll find is that the bottom 44% humankind have 1,3% of global income, while the top 15% have 80% of the world's income. The result is that one third of annual human death is linked to poverty.

Side: Communism
Stickers(1037) Disputed
5 points

The argument is regarding what's good for people in general, and not citizens of a particular nation. What you'll find is that the bottom 44% humankind have 1,3% of global income, while the top 15% have 80% of the world's income. The result is that one third of annual human death is linked to poverty.

In these areas, there probably aren't even capitalistic markets, and for a good reason, they don't have the resources to support such systems.

To be fair, wealth inequality is too high even in nations capable of sustaining capitalism and we need to instill a basic income/reverse tax.

There are economic reasons for it besides ethical, you need to have steady supply of demand for consumer goods to have a market in the first place. In many regions, they lack the ability for consumers to demand goods when wealth becomes too scarce from consumers by way of inordinate wealth concentration or scarcity in general, which is the best way that I can explain their continuing stagnation.

Side: Capitalism
4 points

Communism assumes people will do the right things "just because", it also assumes people aren't ambitious, that they will attempt to achieve a higher standard of living.

I don't really think it would work in the long term.

Side: Capitalism
Beardontcare(47) Disputed
1 point

Those who give more will be recognized for their actions and naturally receive more in return.

Side: Communism
pakicetus(1455) Disputed
4 points

Huh? Isn't the entire point of communism that everyone be "equal"?

Side: Capitalism
Scoots(33) Clarified
1 point

Yes, that is exactly why CAPITALISM works... the more you do, the more you get... it inspires people to actually do something and the more they do the better life gets. COMMUNISM rewards effort and lack thereof equally so you really don't need to do much of anything.

Side: Communism
1 point

All political propositions 'assume'

I don't really think it would work in the long term

I agree.

To be fair, wealth inequality is too high even in nations capable of sustaining capitalism and we need to instill a basic income/reverse tax.

Well I'm glad someone is thinking about a solution, but capitalism/ communism or not. Like a diet, following one simple approach may suit some people but certainly NOT everyone!

Simply deciding which is better for you or 'the people' is too simplistic - you need to get to the root of the problems and take a more rounded approach. If for example we proposed that we shall now be a nation of people that only gives, or values generosity, it wouldn't work (and very unlikely). It would be taken advantage of (for sure.)

What we can see from living examples are whether communism is working for communist countries, like China (just because it's notorious) it is a thriving country and the rate of development in technology and the population is outstanding, BUT there is a very big but....around 3-5% of the population have most of the wealth. Where numbers are not necessary, recent floods of mainland Chinese people trying to get into Hong Kong because of he very deficient human rights China, at least in HK they can get free medical health care, hospital/ childbirth etc.

We say that the UK has a huge segregation between the rich and poor, but in China this is even more prevalent! China has now changed some of its policies/ approach towards capitalism - this shows that it must be better for long -term.

Overall, the matter depends on what you value, just because China's economy and population/ manufacturing has boomed, does it mean/ is this the reality that the social, wellbeing of the majority of the people has benefited at all?

Side: Capitalism

Capitalism. Of corse you have to have some sort of union laws, but over all capitalism is the way to go.

Side: Capitalism
1 point

Capitalism is, simply put, the superior economic system. It almost hurts me to think that some people believe it is a system designed to only benefit the rich.

Side: Capitalism
1 point

In phase 2 of Marx's theory of Communism: a dictator or elite leader must gain absolute control over the proletariat.

Side: Capitalism
HumannamuH(209) Clarified
1 point

The main idea is not bad; it is the means of achieving it which can taint it.

Side: Communism