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Debate Info

37
120
He created himself We did
Debate Score:157
Arguments:62
Total Votes:182
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 He created himself (24)
 
 We did (38)

Debate Creator

Libavius(114) pic



Who created God?

 

If there are any other suggestions as to who might have created God, feel free to share it with us.

 

He created himself

Side Score: 37
VS.

We did

Side Score: 120

It is easy to make an argument for God’s existence from a cosmological standpoint. As the years have gone by, a growing amount of scientific data has accumulated which negates atheistic assumptions about how matter and the cosmos came into existence and how it has arrived at its present condition. I have been impressed with an increasing awareness on the part of many scientists and theologians that science and religion are symbiotic disciplines.

One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what the origin of God is? If God created matter/energy and designed the systems that have propelled matter into its present arrangement, who or what accomplished that for God? Why is it any more reasonable to believe that God has always been than it is to say that matter has always been? As Carl Sagan has said, “If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?” (Carl Sagan, Cosmos, [New York: Random House, Inc., 1980], p. 257).

From a purely scientific standpoint, it is easy to demonstrate that matter cannot be eternal in nature. The universe is expanding from what appears to be a beginning point in space/time, which appears to be a one time event. Hydrogen is the basic fuel of the cosmos, powering all stars and other energy sources in space. If the fuel of the universe has been used eternally, that fuel will eventually be depleted; but the evidence is that the cosmological gas gauge, while moving toward “empty,” is yet a long way from being there—a condition incompatible with an eternal universe. The second law of thermodynamics insists that the cosmos is moving toward a condition of disorder, sometimes referred to as “heat death.” Even in an oscillating universe, things ultimately run out of energy and “die.” All of these evidences, and several others we have not made reference to, show that matter cannot be eternal, as Dr. Sagan and his associates would like to believe. However, this does not mean that we automatically accept the hypothesis that God is the Creator. Why is it not equally invalid to suggest that God has always been?

The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to the Bible and to common sense. Consider the following descriptions of God from the Bible:

John 4: 24

God is a Spirit: ...

Matthew 16:17

... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should ... ;

Obviously, the descriptions and concepts of God given in these passages are that God is a spiritual entity. He exists outside of the three-dimensional physical world in which we live. The Bible further supports this concept of God in the following passages:

Jeremiah 23:23-24

Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? ... Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

2 Chronicles 2:6

But who is able to build a house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? ...

Acts 17:28

For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; ...

Not only is God described as being outside space, but He is also described as being outside of time. Consider the following:

2 Peter 3:8

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:4

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Psalm 102:27

But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Acts 1:7

...It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his power.

If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory.

When asked “Who or what created God?” we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Revelation 22:13).

God created time. The statement of Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” is making reference to the creation of time. The reason that things like heat death, the expansion of the universe, and the depletion of hydrogen do not apply to God is because He is outside of time. God has always been. He did things before time began (see 1 Corinthians 2:7). He not only began time; He will also end it. When time ends, all matter and all mankind will enter eternity—a timeless condition free of the negative things that time brings upon us now.

2 Peter 3:10-11

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness.

Revelation 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The agnostic position that there is nothing that can be said to support God’s existence that cannot be said against that existence cannot, in the opinion of the author, stand in the face of this evidence.

Side: He was already there
casper3912(1581) Disputed
1 point

I would say the argument presented is not so much an argument for god's existence as for the possibility of his existence despite concerns about temporal matters.

The same argument can be made concerning the "big bang", with minor modifications. Since the "speed" of time is related to the density of mass in an area.

It doesn't really deductively lead to god's actual existence, but merely states that if god exists it is in a way which makes concerns about temporal matters misplaced/invalid. It is more of a counter to an argument against god's existence than a proof for his existence.

There are also a few things I could be nit picky about, like:

If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created!

That assumes something can not be created outside of time and space, which outside of such things we really don't know much about. If something outside of our plane of existence could create it, then could something of created god's timeless plane of existence with him in it?

There are also a few other things I don't really care to point out at the moment which I find fault with.

Still, one of the better ones on this side, and thus it deserves up top; upvote.

Side: We did
1 point

God was before man came into being. Anything that is not apart of God is apart of death. We were made in Gods image therefore we have been given life. These words to not come from man but from God himself.

Side: He created himself
deepishm(359) Disputed
6 points

we come from our parents....then gods came from??????there is nothing called god it was just created by our ancestors to instill fear in the minds of future generation..........god is immortal

Side: We did
mustang(14) Disputed
2 points

Why use energy arguing what came first. If God is everything then we are part of everything so we must be God along with everything else in existence

Side: We did
1 point

God created Himself. .

Side: He created himself
Nautilus(629) Disputed
2 points

How can God create himself?

*btw I'm not down voting you, I think if someone down votes another person they should at least have the balls to dispute them. I dispute, not down vote.

Side: We did
Billie(790) Disputed
3 points

Ah right ok, yes someone is going around down-voting every post I make but I'm getting it sorted anyhow.

I have not actually studied this topic so I may be wrong but I am hoping someone will have something interesting that I have not yet considered. Perhaps He created Himself, but often the Word tells us that time is something very different to God therefore He always existed thus there was no "creating God". It is a very interesting subject and what it really comes down to is that if no one else created God (which they didn't of course) then He created Himself/was always 'there'.

Side: He created himself
1 point

What pathetic moron is going around down-voting my posts? If this continues I will report to the site staff and have you banned, savvy?

Side: He created himself
1 point

What does it really fucking matter? If you believe in Him, that's great. If you don't, that's fine too.

Why in the hell do so many of the "oppressed" atheists seem to feel an overwhelming need to attack others (simply because they believe differently than the atheists do)?

If atheists are really as "amused" by Christianity and religion as much as they claim; why in the hell do they always seem so fucking angry?

Side: He created himself
casper3912(1581) Disputed
1 point

yes actually, religion is tied into politics, companies, social lives, etc.

Most atheists view such "attacks" as a playful game, or are tired of religions interconnections to the rest of their lives.

Its doubtful atheists always seem angry, but if they are it may be because of the pressure to be something other than an atheist. People tend to push back, I find it amusing that so many religious people assume that other people are themselves religious, such assumptions can create an atmosphere of religious pressure and pointing out that your nor religious or that you would prefer a different atmosphere can often lead to heated argumentation.

Side: We did
Batdude(75) Disputed
0 points

So what you're saying is, no; it doesn't really fucking matter.

People (ALL) people are stupid as a box of fucking rocks and no matter what will always seek to crush others they feel are opposing them, even if no one is.

Side: He created himself
hoegy(308) Disputed
1 point

because we were all made in the image of God and in every person deep down their is a piece of them longing to reach out to life. Longing for something more. This longing is what creates frustation in the mind of an atheist. Because day by day it is a war amongst good and evil.

Side: We did
2 points

I don't find it to be a "longing for something more" when someone feels that the best way to say, "We have a difference of opinion on this subject" by screaming at me that I'm a "fucking idiot nutjob" because I happen to believe in God.

Side: He was already there
1 point

God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

Side: He created himself
casper3912(1581) Disputed
1 point

If god exists in a plane where cause and effect do not operate, then how could he has caused anything himself?

Both god and the "big bang" can use arguments concerning the nature of time and how our usual perception of it doesn't apply in such cases.

Is there a proof that we can not access a super universe in a scientifically verifiable way?

Side: We did
8 points

I believe that we created God. If we live, we are forced to face our human conditions. I believe nature has given us the ability to ask questions about our condition but has forgotten to give us the ability to find an answer. I refuse to create an answer. Others prefer to create an answer because incomprehension is too hard to bare. God was born from our desire to understand.

Side: We did
2 points

...Or from our desire to cope. I don't believe religion truly helps in understanding, since so much of it is itself pretty incomprehensible. Rather religion seems to be an area which many people have a limited ability to rationally consider, probably due to an emotional need being satisfied by the religion. The brain is a beautiful thing, which seems to be able to protect itself from even itself.

Side: We did
8 points

And so, as it was, man created god in his image.

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Side: We did
7 points

I truly don't understand how someone can believe that something made itself. It just sounds ridiculous.

Side: We did
Billie(790) Disputed
1 point

Thats because God isn't a man with no power. He is God who is all-powerful therefore He can do such a thing.

Side: He created himself
casper3912(1581) Disputed
6 points

In another debate you basically claimed his omnipotence is actually bounded by logic.

In order for a entity to create itself, it must first exist but if it first exists it is already "created".

Side: We did
clearEn(207) Disputed
1 point

It's not so much that God made Himself. God just is and was. Why does everything have to have a beginning and an end? That seems the result of mortal human thinking.

Side: He created himself
casper3912(1581) Disputed
7 points

If god always is and always was, then couldn't energy be something that always is and always was? occam's razor would lead us to see that energy always existing is more likely, if we grant that the two propositions have the same empirical evidence.

Side: We did
7 points

GOD is nothing.....it is just an imaginary thing just to create a sense of fear that someone is watching us.....

Side: We did
7 points

My parents !

Side: We did
6 points

The concept of god(s) is a product of the human mind in an attempt to explain that which we couldn't explain at the time: Storms, wind, child birth, sickness, etc. Nowadays, people use god as an emotional crutch to try and diminish their fear of death or being alone.

Side: We did
3 points

AGREEE AGREE AGREEE!!!!!!!!! WE CREATED 'GOD'. HE IS JUST A RANDOM FABLE THAT PEOPLE WENT WWWAAAAYYYYY OVERBOARD WITH!!! (SORRY ABOUT ALL THE CAPS.....CAPS LOCK IS ON :) )

Side: We did
3 points

On the first day, man created God.

On the second day, man created another God.

On the third day, man created another God.

On the fourth day, man killed everybody who didn't believe in his own God.

Side: We did
Billie(790) Disputed
0 points

Lol, whats up with the four days? Its meant to be seven, but hey, you atheists are so good at making shit up aren't you? Lol.

First day - God created light and seperated it from darkness.

Second day - God created the sky.

Third day - God created land, sea and vegetation.

Fourth day - God created the sun, moon and stars.

Fifth day - God created living creatures in water, and birds in the air.

Sixth day - God created man, woman and land animals.

Seventh day - God created a day of rest.

Get it right.

Side: He created himself
EvenBetter(44) Disputed
3 points

I know the order, I have read the bible, probably more so than many so-called 'theists'.

I don't make anything up, it's the religious who are the masters of creating fallacies and fabrications.

Side: We did
Bohemian(3860) Disputed
1 point

How do we have days at all, before the sun? What is the earth orbiting before the sun? How do we have light before the sun and the stars?

Side: We did

Chuck Norris ; )

Side: Chuck Norris
2 points

It's pretty obvious.

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Side: We did
10 points

Oooooooooh, yeah.

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Side: We did
3 points

Definitely. XD

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Side: We did
1 point

The thing is:no one knows. But why should atheists concern themselves with this?

Side: He created himself
1 point

I think that humans in the early years of humanity created gods, mythological creatures/stories, and other such things to explain the unexplainable. Now that we know so much (evolution) I believe we are too smart to believe in God, or any other celestial beings.

Side: We did
1 point

The human primate evolved in the fertile basin of Africa. An area where there were many threats from other species'. As such, our primitive ancestors needed to maintain a social contract, through which they could guarentee that no individal Athroprimate would dare to try to usurp the group for their own autonomous interest.

Many of the leaders of these very early tribes realized that merely saying 'we will punish you' would not work in it's purpose, though inventing some transcendant deity would have that effect, as the deity would work as a multilateral surveillance and conscience. Thus the original religions were created.

The more effort people put into the religion they have, the more dedicated they feel to it, as they will findit harder to accept that their efforts were on a wasted cause and such. Therefore, early religions demanded greater blood sacrifices, which caused people to become dedicated to said convictions.

Throughout history, society has further developed more of these dreadful false impositions known as religions to maintain the corrupt social order.

Side: We did
1 point

there is nothing called as god in this world. everything happened, is happening, and will happen according to the laws of physics, chemistry, mathematics. And something which cant be understood using existing laws will be finally understood when we make our laws and understanding about the universe more refined.

Its us who created GOD, god is not a thing. it is just a man made source of inspiration, which a person can rely on when his is low in confidence and inspiration. GOD is nothing more than that. GOD cannot make thing happen for u. its us who have to get inspired from some inspirational source called as god and make thing happen.

if u cant get inspired from god, u can always get inspired from some other thing, like ur mother, wife, kids, enemies, rivals, friends. etc.

its absolutely not compulsory to pray to god or worship. just concentrate on ur duties, perform thm well.

Side: We did