CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
In response to 99% of the arguements on the other side all worded slightly different - evidence like "Conservatives own more American flag shirts" doesn't hold water.
The problem with both sides with due respect, is that we're arguing from two different frames of mind.
Conservatives believe that patriotism has more to do with a thing.
Liberals believe that patriotism has more to do with an idea.
That being the case, Liberals tend to question government more on things like wars, which appears to Conservatives to be unpatriotic.
Liberals like the idea of helping everyone who's sick.
Conservatives see more government programs and get scared.
Liberals like the idea that in the country with the most food/ capita, no one should ever starve.
Conservatives see lazy people... and get scared.
Liberals see statistics that say more guns in the hands of more people = more dead people, and so want better gun control.
Conservatives see robbers under their bed, get scared and buy a gun. Then think anyone not scared of robbers under their bed is unpatriotic.
Liberals see historical factual statistics that say outlawing abortion doesn't stop a single abortion, only drives them into dirty basements where mothers die.
Conservatives only see a big invisible dude in the sky ready to throw lightning at them...
So yeah, the Bush era Conservative is under the dillusion they're patriotic, really though, it's basically the opposite of what our forefathers intended our nation to be.
"Liberals like the idea that in the country with the most food/ capita, no one should ever starve.
Conservatives see lazy people... and get scared."
Conservatives like that idea to, and there is no excuse as to why anyone can't make enough money not to starve. This is America. If you work hard enough you can make enough money not to starve, and then some! How do you think we got to be the country with the most food/capita? Through hard work.
Conservatives take advantage of the country they live in. ( :
Liberals see hard work.... .. . and get scared. D:
The problem is though, with the "anyone can make enough money not to starve." Is that it's not true.
Most homeless people are Vietnam vets (and an increasing number vets from more recent wars) who through service to our country kind of "lost it" for lack of a better term. And we as a nation have tragically failed this segment of our society.
And there are also children not even old enough to work, who fall through the cracks. More should be done to stop this from happening.
You can't rely on individual good will to save these people. Obviously or there wouldn't be a problem.
You need social programs for these kinds of issues.
Which Conservatives are usually against.
On another note, notice I specified "Bush era Conservatives."
Liberals do not question wars very well obviously.
WWI Woodrow Wilson Democrat
WWII FDR Democrat
Korea Harry Truman Democrat
Vietnam Lyndon Johnson Democrat
Persian Gulf 1 George Bush Republican
Persian Gulf 2 Bill Clinton Democrat
Iraq/Afghan George Bush Republican
The world wars were democrat presidents however party would not have mattered.
Korea, Vietnam, and the 3 middle east wars looks like 3 democrats and 2 republicans now I will even take the 2 Persian Gulf wars off the table and we are still left with 3 wars.
Korea, Vietnam both democrats and 2 very bad wars. VIETNAM being the worst.
Iraq is compared to Vietnam but not one death in Iraq was from an involuntary soldier. Vietnam most deaths were unvoluntary soldier deaths.
Paint the picture to whatever liking you want but facts will still show the true picture.
I have never met any "liberal" that made fun of people for being patriotic. I have never seen or heard on TV any "liberal" making fun of patriotism. In fact rarely have I met anyone, regardless of their political views, who made fun of patriotism. My issue with what Jake said is that he was making a broad stereotype, that is both inaccurate and offensive.
That's called socialism so people who work hard and go to school whether they are rich or poor should give others who don't work hard their money? Yeah that's fair if that what its about then i want to stop work right now and receive those benefits. Your theory doesn't work it only makes the poorer poor and only expect hands out and makes people lazy.
patriotism - love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it; "they rode the same wave of popular patriotism"; "British nationalism was in the air and patriotic sentiments ran high"
Theres the definition. I would say Liberals are more willing to sacrifice for the country, because we are attempting to bring home our soldiers who are fighting a pointless war in Iraq, which wasn't a threat to us in the first place.
It is by the very definition of liberalism that a liberal is more patriotic than a conservative:
Where a conservative is unwilling to change from the status quo, to "preserve" a a country, a liberal is willing to make radical change- to do what is necessary.
Where a conservative is unwilling to do anything that might contradict so-called "traditional values," a liberal is unconcerned with that, so long as nobody's rights are violated.
Where a conservative is unwilling to help those who are downtrodden, the liberal is willing (and, hopefully, so are his or her constituency) to spend money to help.
More patriotic is difficult because one really understand patriotic means. Who knows. There are definition for patriotic but who is to say who is more patriotic, conservatives or liberals. I pick Liberal only because I am liberal.
If you mean by someone that mindlessly waves a flag and can't for the life of him see anything wrong with anything the country has ever done, then conservatives, certainly.
If you mean someone that values freedom for everyone, honors their ancestors who found, bled, and died to create that freedom, cares deeply about not squandering the nation's security by not frittering away it's wealth in no-bid contracts and 'rescuing' fat-cat, well-connected donors on Wall Street, sending untold billions to useless defense contractors, defending the nation's integrity on the world stage, that kind of thing ... then it's hands down, liberals.
"Conservatives" - continue to worry yourselves with the pressing matters like the "war on Christmas," gay marriage, standing firm in your opposition to helping stave off a depression. We, the adults, the liberals, will work around you and do what needs to be done to save the country. Wave the flag all you would like. As if it even mattered. We'll take care of the financial crisis you made, the torture doctrine you created, the wars you started, the wasting away of the nation's wealth by concentrating it in the hands of a privileged few; we'll try our best to restore the freedoms you frittered away. Keep waging against "happy holidays" and the other straw men that so thoroughly occupy your time. We'll put out the fire.
I'm not in favor or one or the other side. I don't think that leftists or rightists are more patriotic in general. However, I noticed that the debate was dangerously close to being balanced so I thought I'd take the opportunity to balance it out. Hopefully, once and for all.
Bingo! It's what I've been trying to point out. Not one or the other has the corner on the market of patriotism and it certainly doesn't matter which side of the middle one falls on. My God...they voted you down too! What a nasty assed thing to do.
Well now, LindseyKinns, this debate happens to be about Patriotism and not morals. I take offense at your accusation of Liberals having NO morals. I am a Democrat and therefore immediately thrown into the Liberal category! You are a Republican and automatically thrown into the Conservative category. Who knows? You may very well be a person with morals but to label an entire sector of society immoral makes no sense and is not to be believed or taken seriously. You've made the statement, now back it up with fact, if you please.
We are more patriotic than liberals because we focus on the positive strength of america. We are are proud of our country for what it is and what it has been.
Yeah. I happen to find political segregation for the means of patriotic one-upmanship against your fellow countrymen extremely patriotic. Good show sir.
Just look at the our president right now apologizes to other countries for us. When was the last time any president has ever done this. Liberals always have been less patriotic I can recall liberal rallies burning the flag I can't even think of one Conservative rally that has ever done this.
Patriotism is not blindly following what your government tells you because you've been brain washed into thinking that your government is some kind of infallible god. Patriotism is sticking to your guns and fighting to make your country what you want it to be. What you are talking about is indoctrination, not patriotism.
I am sorry for what I am saying, but conservatives are to blame for A) everyone else hating us, and B) over 4,000 American troop deaths and close to a million (or more?) Iraqi deaths since 2003.
I don't think there is much to be proud of the past 8 years...
1.) okay, everyone does not HATE us, but much of the world does. Much more than is desirable.
2.) Yes we should fight terrorism. Problem is, we're NOT. Former big oil CEOs may be fighting to gain political control over other peoples' oil, but bin Laden? Come on. And you're right, liberals voted to go to war too. Why? Because after they tried to make the argument that there is no justification to invade Iraq (which there wasn't), they were publicly labeled 'unpatriotic' by conservatives (which they aren't, if patriotism still means protecting America's interests).
3.) Pessimistic attitude won't help anything? So tell me what will. Perhaps paying attention to actual intelligence before invading a country that did nothing to us? Maybe calling attention to the egregious acts of the Bush administration? Obviously, that's not working. So tell me. Why would I want to pretend to be proud of something that is obviously not worth praising??
Hey, we are not at war with Iraq!, we are at war with terrorist and yes they are in Iraq. Why shouldn't the people in Iraq have the same freedom that we have? Why shouldn't we get rid of the terrorists that are in Iraq? Do you think Iraq is the only place we are fighting terrorism?
Terrorists were not in Iraq until the USA invaded it!!! That is a fact that is backed up by a mountain of evidence!
"Why shouldn't the people in Iraq have the same freedom that we have?"
THey should! They were a sovereign state that was invaded by a hegemon that wanted their oil, and they are now victims of a war that should never have been started!! Where is their freedom now??
"Terrorists were not in Iraq until the USA invaded it!!!" that doesn't make sence, why would the terrorists do that. I don't think they are that stupid.
You are saying that they should have the same freedom that we have, just with terrorists in their country.
You keep trying to agree and disagree with me at the same time.
"that doesn't make sence, why would the terrorists do that. I don't think they are that stupid."
Obviously you have never studied world politics, because if you have, you would not even ask that question. Here is the answer:
Sovereign country + a ruler who is intolerant of terrorists + trigger-happy oil-hungry hegemon = intolerant ruler gone + civil strife among THREE groups + inherent instability + basically a 'FAILED STATE'
Where else would terrorists go? Come on.
"You are saying that they should have the same freedom that we have, just with terrorists in their country."
NO, I am saying that they have less freedom now than they did before! And a million dead Iraqis!! Hello!!
are you serious? cause a war with 4000 deaths, we are to blame? let me remind you that the liberal party who supported slavery which ultimately became the rally point for conservative men in the north to fight for .so since liberals who were mainly on the pro side of slavery of the war, should they be blamed for the casualties? those causalities number a total of 360,222, way more then the Iraq deaths. i would not tie an ideology with a war, but since you blamed conservative with the Iraq war, should i blame liberals with the civil war?
We should have never been in a war with Iraq to begin with! Osama bin Laden had absolutely nothing to do with Saddam Hussein but 9/11 was a great excuse to pursue other interests there! Can you tell us why you think President Clinton didn't "kill" bin Laden? Do you know what the circumstances were then?
There is absolutely no difference between the patriotism of liberals or conservatives, Democrats or Republicans and any other group of people who hang their hats on another hook in the cloak room of America! You confuse patriotism with the politics of individuals and that simply doesn't fly. The definition of Patriotism, according to Merriam-Webster is the "love for and devotion to one's country."
I'll take the liberty of amending your statement to reflect my thoughts and feelings about America.
I am proud to be an American but am not always proud of the things my country does. Through these 232 years America has been the torchbearer of freedoms and liberties unknown in other parts of the world. We have also been shameless in the treatment of our own brothers and sisters in this very land. I stand ashamed in their presence. I will strive to do the very best I can, as a citizen of this country, to help re-build the American way of life as outlined by our forebears so that one day, I will again be proud of my nation and its standing on the world stage. We can always do better than we have in the past. May we find the strength to make our dream a reality and,once again, revel in what this country can and will be.
Just another name for the piss pot who goes around voting entire sides down. Early on in this one...99.9% of this whole side was voted down! No reason given just down.
Somehow this has turned into a "who's better" or "right" when it comes to political ideology. That is really an entirely different topic. Neither party if inherently more patriotic in my opinion. That being said, many people who are liberals have made very unpatriotic statements and vehemently attacked the U.S., often in a way that tries to stir up public sentiment against us in foreign countries. Trying to work to change something you like is not unpatriotic, attacking the country, making absurd conspiracy claims without proof, and trying to lower public opinion about the US are. Unfortunately, I have not seen any conservatives doing these things. I can name dozens of liberals who are doing just that.
It shouldn't be that way; it doesn't have to be that way; and liberals in general are not unpatriotic. But there are some very unpatriotic liberals.
"for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country" ... just made me sad...
Oh, and I have also traveled all around the Americas and Europe, and people are better off, the poor have MUCH more, there is much more freedom, women, blacks and minorities have more opportunities, and all in all things are pretty good. We are perfectionists however and see what we still do poorly. This is good, but lets not forget the great things we have done.
Neither are very patriotic. I consider patriotism to be not only an undying love of one's country, but an unwavering adherence to its traditions. Higher taxes, more regulation, more government control are not tradition and they're not patriotic. However, on the Conservative side, warmongering, abuse of power, abrasion of civil liberties, and corporate backroom dealing is not patriotic either.
Both sides have a lot to learn about who we are as a country and as a people. Both sides have strayed in different ways but both are of the opinion that government knows best and that is decidedly un-American.
Well it depends on what exactly you mean by patriotism, but I think it's fair to say that conservatives are generally the more patriotic.
I think it's mainly because conservatives see the world as more competitive while liberals see the world as more cooperative. Flag waving and what have you is good in a competitive environment because it promotes a sense of unity -- it pulls the team together as one. These things are not so good in a cooperative environment because they exclude and separate people into groups -- creating an us vs. them mentality.
You can look at this from different points of views.
1. Conservatives are usually the guys with the "God Bless America" t-shirts and hats... bumper stickers... shit like that. i've never seen a liberal wear a "support our troops" shirt. it's not that liberals AREN'T patriots, it's that Patriotism isn't much of a concern for them.
2. Liberals actually make fun of how Conservatives love America (Colbert Report, American Dad). They think talking about how much you love America is a joke.
i think both love their country, but Conservatives definitely prove to be the more patriotic.
Oh puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeze! Is that what sets them apart? I suspect there are more ways of expressing your love of country than bumper stickers, flags and such...and I just love the one that says "America, Love it or Leave it!" That IS the most UNPATRIOTIC slogan I've ever seen. My own slogan reads a bit differently..."America, Love it and Fix it." Haven't you "conservatives" ever heard of the right to dissent or freedom of speech?
My number one concern is how to make our country better and function at its highest level.
1. I am not a Conservative... please don't see things as black or white. i was purely making an analysis.
2. America itself does not need fixing, this is why we have the form of government that we have. Because, if you don't like how the current government is going, you can simply vote against it next time. That is not fixing AMERICA, that is changing your government... which is what America is all about. Really, the only way you can actually change America is to open up the Declaration of Independence and do some editing. That is the birth of what we know as America.
our country is what it is, and it shall stay that way (unless we have a Communist Revolution or something).
If someone does not love their country... why would they stay there. it seems that bumper sticker is more about common sense than it is about patriotism.
I'm certainly not afraid of expressing love for this country (and in case you doubted it, I do love this country). My only issue is that there is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism. The latter of the two is dangerous, because what that says is we're superior to everyone else. So many people in the U.S. say that we have the best country, but have never even visited another country. I fail to understand that logic.
Love where you are, but don't assume that just because of where you were born that you're better than other people. For some reason, it's way more acceptable that hundreds of thousands of middle easterners die than a single American. That's not patriotic, that's stupid.
As for the NUMBER ONE concern, I'd say you are confused. If a mom puts a "my child is an honor student" bumper sticker on the back of their car, does that mean they suddenly care more about education than anyone else? If you want to put on a bumper sticker, great! Exercise your first amendment right, but don't assume you're better than me because I don't want to. Actions speak a whole lot louder than words.
it's not about who's better, it's about who loves their country more. Patriotism was created in order to rally the civilians into accepting Dissent from Britain and creating a new nation built on new ideals. When the ideals were set (Declaration of Independence), it was the Patriots who supported this Declaration. The Declaration is what defines the country. Therefore, loving thy country is being a Patriot. Nationalism actually falls very much in Patriotism, although, Patriotism is believing YOU'RE better than everyone else, it's believing that AMERICA is the greatest country on Earth. It doesn't even matter on what you think of the Government... it's your support of America and it's ideals. Liberals could love their country just as much as Conservatives do, but unfortunately, they've failed in proving it. Both can arguably have done just as much action, but Conservatives have shown much more pride in their country, much more pride in the fallen members of the military. Hell, i'm not Conservative, but one trait I do have from them is that I express my love for the USA. Yes, liberals actually point me out as a Conservative just because i have a t-shirt that says "Support Our Troops", or a hat that has an American Eagle and an American Flag on it... and i always respond that my country is one of the most important things to me, and they actually look at me as an ideologue or even an enemy. In high school i was always pointed out as a Conservative by the Liberal kids and they actually would start debates with me out of random (even if they didn't know my political views). The problem was that they assumed i was a Conservative just because of my "Support Our Troops" shirt.
Then, when i actually get complimented on my patriotic clothing, it would always be chants like "USA all the way" or "Hell yeah, fight those Iraq bastards". and this is very common. this is why, Conservatives (despite how many Liberals feel patriotic), have at least successfully convinced me that they are more patriotic.
Well let me just concede because your personal anecdotes have just convinced me.
Let's clear this up, the shirt you were wearing said "support our troops." Although I agree with the sentiment, the shirt is quoting a motto that is associated with conservatives. Just like if you had a shirt that said "support our troops, end the war" it would be associated with liberalism. What your shirt implies is if you don't support the war you are, for some reason, against the troops. I am guessing that as an intelligent, rational person you don't feel this way, but never the less that is what the shirt implies. Maybe if the shirt instead said "I support our troops" there would have been less of a division.
If the liberals or conservatives at your school thought the American Eagle or American flag was somehow a depiction of your political views then they're probably just narrow minded.
My whole argument with how most conservatives view patriotism is they think that it only applies to those with the same views as them. Dividing the country and demonizing your opponents is not very patriotic in my mind. Patriotism and love for country has almost nothing to do with political affiliation.
To demonstrate my point, let me leave you with three quotes...one by a former, conservative president, one by a conservative governor and one by our soon to be, liberal president:
G.W.H. Bush:
I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic.
Sarah Palin:
We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation.
Barack Obama
There is not a liberal America or a Conservative America, there is the United States of America
(I know grabbing random quotes isn't any better then your personal story but I wanted to do it anyway, so whatever)
Just because all the arguments fall to one side matters not one iota! The "liberal" side fell to opposing the conservative side...that's why 99% of the writing is on this side and for no other reason.
I am not sure why the liberal side is winning. Conservatives look at the positives of America, while conservatives the negative.
When you see someone sitting for the national anthem or burning a flag, ask them if they are a con or lib. I'd be interested in that response: I bet ithey'd be liberal.
I don't agree with your thought that Conservatives look at the positives of America, while Liberals (I believe that is what you meant to say!) the negative, Republican08. I believe that liberals see both clearly and we are also ready to see and admit to the negatives.
As a liberal, when I see someone sitting out the National Anthem, it makes me just as sick as burning an American flag. When I've been at a ball game or other place where the National anthem is played, I've been known to bring sitting down to their attention. They do get up about 80% of the time.
How is it possible to say that liberals do not focus more on the negative side?
It was Barack Obama (a.k.a. "The Savior") that told a little girl that America isn't like it once was. I heard McCain saying that we can make America what it once was! There is a big difference, and it is time we start to see that.
You are incorrect in your wording on the Obama comment but even if you were not, America as it once was is a statement that needs context such as time frame and events. I took his meaning to be, since he is black, that a prejudiced America is not a good thing as is not having Health Care and sundry other things that have been missing from our nation for so long. McCain would also have to explain his remarks but both of these candidates simply want to make things better here. Obama is no "Savior" and neither is McCain.
Conservatives look at the positives of America, while liberals the negative (I fixed your typo, to what you meant)
I think what you mean is that conservatives accept the status quo while liberals look to see how we can improve the country. Liberals helped make our country better by extending rights to minority groups. Conservatives? They thought blacks should get to the back of the bus.
But ignoring the historic actions of both groups, politics don't have any bearing on your love of country. Patriotism is a separate issue and shouldn't be assigned to only Liberals or Conservatives.
Let's compare the two sides. Liberals are about forcing - they think by taxing and by forcing people to spread their hard earned wealth is "patriotic" when in fact paying taxes is a requirement. Conservatives are more patriotic because they want to cut taxes so people can be patriotic and donate... which is an option.
In the history of the U.S. name one person who has donated money to the government. The closest thing I can think of is war bonds, but people got that money back.
It's hard to say one is more patriotic the other. I was in the military and was with liberals, conservatives, socialists and others and they were all pretty patriotic.
Patriotism is not defined by a party but by the love you have for your country. I am conservative to most people but believe in liberal ideas as long as it benefits AMERICA not individual americans.
If you do nothing for this country but complain and ask for hand outs and do not support the people who have made it possible for you to be here and have the freedoms we have, well then you are not patriotic no matter who you voted for. If you burn the American flag in protest, you are not patriotic.
Patriotism does not mean you are for or against WAR, ABORTION, HOMOSEXUALS, DEMOCRAT or REPUBLICAN. It means you love, respect and honor your country.
So if you LOVE, RESPECT and HONOR your country you are PATRIOTIC no matter who you vote for or where you live.
The pie chart goes to show how Liberal leaning the CreateDebate crowd is, and also how fickle the American public opinion is and how short memory is. People are just reacting to the last President in office. Yes, Congress was dominantly Democrat, but most people don't see it that way because they can only focus on one person- the President. So the politicians take advantage of the stupid voters and play up the party politics to try to win the votes of the day. People eat it up like rat poison fed to pigeons in the park, they love every bit of it.
liberals?!?!?!?!??! how could this be. maybe they could be considered patriotic to the government since they support big government. but a Conservative is patriotic to its nation, it knows that the average person wants to have their freedom and liberates. a Conservative fights to wars, one is against people trying to destroy American values and ways, and the second is against a too powerful gov that wants more and more control. and as far as I'm concerned, a person patriotic to the nation's people then the nation's government is was i look for patriotic wise.
If everyone truly hates us, why do they all coming running to us when a natural disaster strikes? Why do they send their children to our universities and colleges? Why do they nearly drown themselves trying to cross bodies of water to get here?
I have traveled extensively abroad, and many are in awe of the U.S. - our freedoms, our sense of humor, our love of life, our freedom to debate, our freedom to self-education. If you see hate, it's most likely envy.
Liberals aren't unpatriotic, just misguided. Communists and socialists are unpatriotic.
Liberals aren't unpatriotic, they are just less patriotic. When was the last time a conservative went abroad and started bashing the U.S. Now, on the liberal side, let's remember the Dixie Chicks, shall we? Or Madonna? How about Alec Baldwin, he was ready to abandon his country because Bush won. Did Chuck Norris promise to leave the US if Obama won?
Again, not that liberals completely lack patriotism, they tend to engage in more misguided behaviors.
As we shall all see after about 6 months of Obama's administration. That man is in way, way, way, way over his head.
And, his wife, she'll make Hillary look like Betsy Ross.
You must have traveled in your dreams...because most countries detest us and it has nothing to do with envy! It has everything to do with our butting our nose in where it doesn't belong...in other peoples business! Natural disasters, hmmm yes, it must be because we've done such a terrific job with Katrina and such! Colleges and Universities...yes, those that are of some means do send their children here to Ivy League schools but the fact of the matter is, the Euro high school education is still equivalent to one to two years of college here. Crossing bodies of water! I suspect you're talking about Cubans and their 90 mile trip in a rowboat!
Liberals are not misguided, we're just intelligent enough to ask the right questions. We're no less patriotic than conservatives, in fact and in many ways we are more patriotic. What have The Dixie Chicks, Madonna, Chuck Norris or Alec Baldwin to do with anything here? I believe that everyone you listed with the exception of Chuck Norris was talking about George Bush's America and good for them. They spoke out!
It pains me to know what you are teaching your children since you home school them. It must be great fun brainwashing small minds with your mindset and to not teach them to be open minded and fair. I have not yet seen you write anything where you didn't think you were absolutely on the money. There are simply no gray areas where you live.
In six months to a year you'll eat every word you've spoken about Obama...and what does his wife have to do with anything? More power to her if she, like Hillary Clinton, can help her husband navigate through the mess you conservatives put us in over these last 8 long years!
If you watch TV, read the newspaper, or search the internet, you've seen it's conservatives. There are always stories of leftist groups burning flags, shouting swears at Bush, wearing offensive t-shirts, and, of course, displaying hateful bumper stickers.
Conservatives have been the ones standing up for America. Conservatives want America to win in Iraq. It was at John McCain and Sarah Palin's rallies that the people were chanting "USA! USA!" and the leftist groups wearing pink that were storming the RNC, only to hear chants of "USA!" from the conservative crowd.
Clearly the Conservatives are the ones who love America through the thick and thin.
What? Nailed the Texan? I am not a Texan. I am an Illinois Republican and proud of it. The IL GOP is in a fight with Blagojevich and the Dems right now and were putting up a fight against the majority to get a special election.
Can you back those statements up please? Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why you would think that conservatives have a more patriotic view and that many Veterans are Conservatives. How many are many?
Ok, tell me...Out of 10 people, 5 are conservatives, 5 are liberals...
Ask each one there opinion on the war...
the 5 conservatives say they are in favor of the war, and stand by the government
the 5 liberals say the government is so stupid that they put us in a war, and won't end it...
Now, who is going to support a war?
1. An older Veteran, who lives in North Carolina, fought for his country because he believes that America should always go to war with those who attack us...
OR
2. A working woman, who lives in Massachusetts, sees only that the government will be spending money to support a war...
Tell me, who's the conservative and who's the liberal...
No, you need to back up your statements! Your plebeian quiz means nothing and I'll tell you why it doesn't. From what you've written you cannot see that protesting or being against something your country does is just as patriotic than going along with the governmental decisions. Going along with and supporting is what you find patriotic. Sorry, but that's got nothing to do with the definition of patriotism and neither does your quiz.
Patriotism is commonly defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country. The word comes from the Latin, patria, and Greek patritha.[1] However, "patriotism," or the love of one's country, has come to have different meanings over time. Thus, the meaning of patriotism can be highly dependent upon context, geography and philosophy.
Alright, although my argument that partioism=support is more supported, I can see where you are coming from..I suppose patriotism is relative, as many disagreements between democrats and republicans are...
Just because I make a negative comment against the president doesn't mean I'm not patriotic. However, it does make me less patriotic than others who don't...You say that it is equally patriotic to tear down our government? How so? Back up your statements. I just proved your satement that partiotism has nothing to do with support wrong. So, I really don't know your argument here.
I defined Patriotism in my first post here! I KNOW what Patriotism is. Your argument is not more supported at all. If you make a negative comment, and I'm not talking about things like he's an ass or stuff like that, that does NOT make you any less Patriotic than someone who keeps his/her mouth shut and goes along with the program or agenda because they haven't a mind to think clearly with! In fact, I would think it would make you more Patriotic by commenting on what you believe to be wrong! You don't love your country any less by not supporting something that is wrong! You support what is right and try to fix what is wrong!
I asked you to back up YOUR argument 3 times already so don't tell me you don't know what my argument is. I've not said anything about tearing down the government here. Where did you see that?
Replace North Carolina with Indiana, and you've got Kurt Vonnegut, who
a) fought in WWII
b) was a self-described socialist, and
c) opposed the war in Iraq
How does he fit into your scheme of patriotism?
Patriotism has nothing to do with one's politics or one's stance on specific issues. Patriotism is about supporting the country, not necessarily its current government. Patriotism is most definitely NOT about agreeing with the government no matter what, and Thomas Jefferson would weep at the implication.