Why Christianity is self-contradicting.
So hey, I wrote an argument and I need you to rip it apart. See, I think it makes logical sense. But that's because I wrote it, and everything I write makes sense at the time. I'd hate to use it and THEN realize that it's full of holes. So if there's some flaw in the logic, point it out.
This was originally written as a series of messages to a kind of dumb person, so it's in a somewhat simple, conversational format. Also, it's pretty long so I'm going to post it as a comment.
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First, would you agree that the God of your bible is completely and totally all knowing and all powerful? [He says yes] Moving on... (If you disagree at any point, stop me and clarify) Now, would you also say that two more traits of God are a perfect love and sense of justice? Traits that are vital and inseparable from his definition? [He says yes again] Mmkay. Now, hypothetically, say one were somehow able to prove that he is lacking any (or all) of the four given traits. (I know this will strike you as impossible. But HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING...) Considering how important these ideas are to God, wouldn't this in effect prove the bible to be wrong (or at least very untrustworthy), as the entire thing is based in him being all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and all just? Wouldn't this mean that the bible had lied every time it called him one of these, rendering it just another religion? [He sceptically agrees] Okay, in the beginning God created the world. When he did this, he knew everything that would come as a result of this. He knew, at the very dawn of creation, before he even spoke the world into existence on the first day, whether every coin ever flipped would be heads or tails. He knew whether I'd choose toast or cheerios for breakfast today. He knew the exact number of hairs that you possessed on your 7th birthday. He knew what I'm thinking right now, what I'll think of next, and how many molecules of dead skin I'm leaving on the keyboard even as I type these words. He knew every choice that every individual will make, and the little occurrences that caused them to make them. EVERYTHING. NO EXCEPTIONS. Agree so far? [He does indeed] Now, this is not the only world God could have created. If he felt like it, he could have gone with a literally INFINITE number of universes to create instead of this one. Because he's an all powerful god, right? Nothing is off limits to him. He could have made a planet consisting entirely of fish people who feed on good thoughts and communicate through interpretive dance. He could have made a galaxy 15 miles around, where all of the planets are two feet in diameter and connected with little bits of colored string, there's no such thing as heat, and instead of space being a vacuum it's more like a thick, syrupy liquid. He could have made a universe almost exactly like this one, where the only difference in all of creation is that you were born with your left pinky .02 inches longer than your right He could have made millions of these universes, and, being all knowing, he knows exactly what would have happened in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM if he had decided with that choice instead of creating the universe he did. But, for whatever reason, he went with this one. Still with me? [He is still with me] Continuing with that thread... Now, when he chose to create the world in this manner he knew what the results would be. He knew that Lucifer would rebel against him and bring a third of the angels to earth. He knew the grief and devastation that would arise of him intentionally creating a flawed angel. Note the "intentionally" there - God knew that Lucifer would turn against him, and could EASILY have created him differently. But he didn't. He knew the entire time that Eve would eat the apple, knew before she had even left Adam's chest that her mind was too weak to stand up to his first failure, Satan. He knew that Adam and Eve would fail his little garden test, because he set it up that way from the beginning. He knew that humanity would, because of things he knew and allowed, become corrupt and need to be wiped off the earth in a flood - tens of millions murdered because god felt like creating a flawed humanity. He could have created an infinite number of Earths where this didn't happen, of course. But he didn't. He could have corrected his mistakes at any time. But he didn't. Because of choices god made, because he created this earth the way he did instead of any if the infinite choices that he could have gone with, every human who didn't believe in him will go to hell. Billions of souls will suffer FOR ETERNITY because they got dealt a short straw when god was making the universe. Every Muslim, every atheist, everyone who just wasn't convinced - all in hell because of a single choice. One that wasn't theirs to decide. One that god chose (albeit indirectly) for them at the very moment of creation. If you believe that your god is just, then you believe that a puppet can be blamed for the actions of its controller. If you believe your god is loving, then you should call me loving if I raise 30 orphans and then send 2 of them to Disneyland while I lock the rest in the basement to be tortured. If you say your god is all knowing, then you must either admit that he did all of this intentionally or that some of our actions are out of his control - that humans can somehow do things god didn't see coming an eternity away. Actually there is a lot of misunderstanding of what Jesus, the Prophets and his apostles really taught. 1. That millions of souls are doomed to eternal torment. That is not taught in the original greek scriptures. The original greek translated in English to mean a place of eternal damnation was not supported in the original greek. Aion, which was translated into eternity really means time indefinite. The scriptures referred to traditionally as hell really signify a place of temporary chastisements to prepare one for salvation. Plus several places in the bible speak of a total restoration of everything created, and an end to sin, death and "Hell". Now if you want to know my take on the so called form of Christianity taking over the churches, I would say its self contradicting. God is love, but he'll send you off into a painful eternity because of some finite bad decisions. No matter how you try to justify it, it does not make any sense. You choose hell? Who would choose to go into a lake of fire. OR God doesnt invade our supposed "Free will", and will let the ignorant blindly walk into a lake of fire? If they are so beyond redemption, would it not be fair to just kill them? What kind of paradise would heaven be if most of your family is being tortured in some hellfire? But that doctrine was made up by the church to exercize control over the mass. They did that in ancient cultures too. There are a few flaws in this "argument." He knew the entire time that Eve would eat the apple, This was a fruit from the forbidden tree of good and evil. The Bible never specifies the name of the fruit. Billions of souls will suffer FOR ETERNITY This is not necessarily true. In Revelation, the Final Judgement is when the book of life is read. If your name is not in this book, you will be thrown into the lake of fire. (Look up Revelation 20:14-15) This is called the second death. Your soul is now dead, not just your human body. because they got dealt a short straw when god was making the universe. Every Muslim, every atheist, everyone who just wasn't convinced - all in hell because of a single choice. Why do you think free will cannot coexist with predestination? Shouldn't God be capable of making this possible too? 3
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Billions of souls will suffer FOR ETERNITY This is not necessarily true. In Revelation, the Final Judgement is when the book of life is read. If your name is not in this book, you will be thrown into the lake of fire. (Look up Revelation 20:14-15) This is called the second death. Your soul is now dead, not just your human body. Just like before we were born huh. Well that's good news. In other words we don't have to be tortured forever for not worshiping some douchebag god who doesn't deserve it. Thanks for clearing that up. Why do you think free will cannot coexist with predestination? Shouldn't God be capable of making this possible too? Because they are mutually exclusive, and while according to premise god could make a contradiction non-contradictory as part of omnipotence, we're going for a logically consistent argument. Free will implies that there are no strings operating your judgment from above, you are in control. Predestination implies that everything has been decided in advance, including your will. They can't coexist anymore than a square can have five sides. "This was a fruit from the forbidden tree of good and evil. The Bible never specifies the name of the fruit." Doesn't really matter. > "This is not necessarily true. In Revelation, the Final Judgement is when the book of life is read. If your name is not in this book, you will be thrown into the lake of fire. (Look up Revelation 20:14-15) This is called the second death. Your soul is now dead, not just your human body." The fact remains that if the rest of my argument follows, most people are being sent to eternal separation from god and thrown in the lake of fire, while a priveledged few are given eternal bliss for a choice that god made. Still every bit as unjust, no? Plus, I was under the impression that the "lake of fire", as with much of revelation, was metaphorical. Surely there are other, less appealing, descriptions of hell. > "Why do you think free will cannot coexist with predestination? Shouldn't God be capable of making this possible too?" To repeat my response to Joe: "That's kind of the entire point of the argument. Shortened version: God knows everything and is all powerful. God knows every reaction that will arise as a result of his choice of world to create. By choosing to create that particular world with full knowledge of every single event that will occur from that point on, he is consciously choosing everything that will ever happen. By doing this, he removes the choice from us humans, which means that the consequences of disbelief are his fault, yet we are the ones getting blamed and punished. Therefore, he is neither just nor loving." So while some would say that defining god as omnipotent and then turning around and giving him limitations is a contradiction, I would say that his very definition as both omnipotent and benevolent is paradoxical. Sweet. Had that hypocritical Christian religion turned out to be right, I was gonna go ahead and voluntarily swine dive into the lake of fire anyway. Now maybe you assholes will just leave me alone for eternity instead. That would kind of be like my heaven. Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
freewill compatible with predestination? How on earth people can cling to these weird things in 21st century. Christianity, and every other religion is self-contradicting because it is man made, used to control people for the kings of particular times, and is obsolete today, when reason is trying to knock 'moronism' out. Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
heh heh, nice one. I like this argument. However I ask some clarifying questions. To see if I can pull it apart in ways you didn't expect. I hope as a type-6 on the dawkins scale I can offer some unique questions. 1.) From what you are stating it seems that your idea of the Christian god has fourth dimensional sight, is this true or not true to your argument? (This will be my primary counter-argument based on what you say, you have been warned.) 2.) Prove to me that those other universes don't exist right now! What makes you think he can't multi-task universes? 3.) What if we are just playthings? Can we just be played with, put away, put into a different scenario next time? Just act things out and see how things go along, until we get judged? After that do we get put into a new universe, and what if the concept of paradise in just a lie? 4.) He is all-knowing in what way? 5.) What if the original versions of all the books were right than manipulated through various translations and rulers to fit their view of Christianity? This means free-will if we did. (not original, oh well) Side: Clarify
1: Care to define what you mean by "fourth dimensional sight"? 2: Whether or not there are multiple universes has no bearing on the injustice to individuals in any given universe. When I'm burning in hell for something I had no choice in, the fact that an alternate universe version of me is living the high life will come as little consolation. 3: That's an interesting concept, but this argument is against Christian lore in particular. If the bible has consistently lied about its ideas of paradise, then it isn't a particularly trustworthy source to begin with. 4: Knowing everything. EVERYTHING, I SAY. 5: Then god, in his omniscience, knew and planned for the books to be manipulated. If he didn't want it to happen, then he shouldn't have created the universe in precisely the manner that would cause them to be manipulated in the first place. Side: Clarify
Although I agree with most of the points you brought up. I guarantee the response you get from Christians is going to be something regarding choice. This is what it inevitably always comes down to. They might argue that no matter how God made the universe as long as people (and angels) have choice naturally some are going to rebel. That God wants people to chose to love him. This is my prediction. Side: Clarify
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The only flaw I see has to do with choice. No matter how God made the universe, as long as people (and angels) have choice, naturally some are going to rebel. God wants people to chose to love him. ;) It's kinda like liberals. No matter how logical conservative views are, as long as there are mind altering drugs, some are going to chose the liberal view. Conservatives just want liberals to use their brains. ;) Side: Clarify
"The only flaw I see has to do with choice. No matter how God made the universe, as long as people (and angels) have choice, naturally some are going to rebel. God wants people to chose to love him. ;)" That's kind of the entire point of the argument. Shortened version: God knows everything and is all powerful. God knows every reaction that will arise as a result of his choice of world to create. By choosing to create that particular world with full knowledge of every single event that will occur from that point on, he is consciously choosing everything that will ever happen. By doing this, he removes the choice from us humans, which means that the consequences of disbelief are his fault, yet we are the ones getting blamed and punished. Therefore, he is neither just nor loving. > "hurr hurr i am literally incapable of entering a debate without spewing my retarded partisan bullshit. also i suck cocks" Perhaps you should consider sucking fewer cocks. Side: Clarify
... right, except this study says you're wrong and it was like done by scientists and stuff link - Average Conservative IQ 95, Average Liberal IQ 106. I'm sure though the voices in your head are far more accurate than a survey conducted using scientific process and analyzed by independant parties. I know how much you bright conservitives disdain anything all sciency and junk. 3 word slogans are so much easier to remember, "Drill baby drill" etc. Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
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Because the New Testament is full of contradictions against the Old, and Christianity holds that they were both divinely inspired by the same God, so the New Testament cannot have been divinely inspired. John 3:13 says that nobody had ascended into heaven before Jesus, while Kings 2 2:11 states unequivocally that Elijah ascended into heaven. Genesis 11:12 says that Shelah was Arphaxad's son, and the genealogy listed in Luke 3:35-36 contradicts it directly by saying that Shelah was his grandson. Leviticus 20:9 condemns those who curse their parents and sentences them to death. On the other hand, Jesus declares in Luke 14:26 that no man can become his disciple unless they hate their parents, along with their wives and children, and brothers and sisters. Numbers 25:9 states that God killed twenty-four thousand people in a plague, but in Corinthians 10:8, the death toll is twenty-three thousand. Additionally, there are conflicting verses within the New Testament itself. Matthew (1:1-16) claims that there are 27 generations between David and Jesus, Luke (3:23-38) claims 41 generations. Whosoever shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hellfire. - Matthew 5:22 [Jesus said] ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17 “For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.” - Ephesians 2:8-9 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” - James 2:24 Practically everything about the religion is self contradicting. It's not even a question. Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
Well, it looks to me that the only thing you are hung up on is God being all knowing and the fact that he gives humans the ability to choose. There are many bible verses I could throw into this but considering your mind isn’t open, I’ll just try to explain what we, as a Christian, believe. Don’t worry; I’ll try to put it into as simple of terms as I can for you. Yes, God did know what Adam and Eve would do, he knew about the devil, and he knows what we are all personally going to do. You can call it predestination, but its more like, I will use a metaphor to help explain for you, God read the book of the universe so he knows what is going to happen and is now re- reading it. Because he already read it, he knows what is going to happen the second time around. Now for free choice, we all as humans have free choice, which I don’t get why you don’t like that, who doesn’t like the ability to decide for themselves? You obviously used your free choice to decide not to believe, that means you are still using the free choice God gave to everyone. For free choice and predestination, since God knows what is going to happen, that’s what it means by predestination. He gave us free choice, we decide, and since he’s read ahead he knows our choices, which is predestination. If that’s too confusing let me know, I’ll try to explain it simpler for you. Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
"There are many bible verses I could throw into this but considering your mind isn’t open, I’ll just try to explain what we, as a Christian, believe. Don’t worry; I’ll try to put it into as simple of terms as I can for you." I appreciate you starting out with the condescension. Most people wait until the end to take a few immature jabs, but you...you don't beat around the bush. Very direct. I like that. > " but its more like, I will use a metaphor to help explain for you, God read the book of the universe so he knows what is going to happen and is now re- reading it. Because he already read it, he knows what is going to happen the second time around." That's a wonderful analogy. It really helps condense the subject so that my closed, unbelieving mind can wrap around it. Unfortunately, you left out the most important part. The part that makes Christianity faulty. See, god didn't just read (i.e, know through his omniscience) the book. He WROTE it. He CREATED THE ENTIRE WORLD, and EVERY RESULT OF THAT CREATION was HIS DOING AND HIS ALONE. Now, we wouldn't have this problem if god was ONLY omniscient, or ONLY all powerful. But mix them together and pretend we have free will, and you have a paradox on your hands. What you are essentially saying -to continue using your own little analogy - is that the characters of a book deserve punishment for what the author decides they do. They think they made their choices, but in reality it was just the plotline that the writer had planned from the beginning. They don't know about the writer, have never seen him - hell, they would call you crazy if you said that anyone but them was making their choices. But no matter what they think, the big man in the sky is pulling all the strings safe behind his typewriter. > "For free choice and predestination, since God knows what is going to happen, that’s what it means by predestination. He gave us free choice, we decide, and since he’s read ahead he knows our choices, which is predestination." Again, this statement would make sense if god WEREN'T the one who created the world. He could just know what was going to happen, and all would be fine. But before he consciously decided how he wanted to create the world, he knew what would happen as a result. Every "choice" every human would ever make. He didn't have to create the world this way, but HE DID. That right there? That was god making every single choice since the universe's creation. Do you understand the paradox now? It's like the classic consumer's problem: "you can have it fast, cheap, or well done. Chose two." Well, here our choice is between all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent - Choose two. Unfortunately, the people writing the bible got greedy, made their god perfect, and wrapped themselves up in a contradiction. > "If that’s too confusing let me know, I’ll try to explain it simpler for you." Ooh, condescension at the start AND the end! I'm flattered. You're just covering all the bases, aren't you? Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
The reason your argument is flawed i beliebe is because you are putting the constraint of time on God. God made time for humans so they could have a will to decide what they wanted to do with their life. God can still know exactly everything that is going to happen with out us deciding it or us not being able to freely make that choice. It is like watching a movie if the character in it were real. Just because we can know everything in the movie before it happens does not mean the characters are not making real dicisions that effect the out come of the movie. God can be all powerful, there can be predestination, and man can have a freewill all at once. Part of being all powerful means God is all understanding. If an atheist truly believes that his way of life is the right way, and that he is truly helping people in the world and contributing, God will not send this person to hell. Where on the other hand if he knows a God exists, but chooses not to believe in him because it is easier not to, or he thinks he hates this God for some prideful arrogant reason that persons chances of getting into heaven or a little bit lower. This does not however mean they cant' get into heaven. God is all powerfull and all knowing and all understanding. Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
I'm sorry but I fail to see how your arguement shows any form of reason. God created the world, he created everything in the world, but he didn't decide what everyone or thing was going to do. Yes, he knew what we would choose to do, he just chose not to stop us. Its all part of free will, and our ability to choose. Now, I think its free will that again is tripping you up. I'll start from the beginning, God created the world and everything in it. He knows what everyone is going to do from the beginning all the way to the end, but he still gives us free will, and a choice. Now, he gives us this choice because he wants us to be able to choose to either love him and follow, or to choose not to love him and not to follow him. That's why, even though he already knows what is going to happen, he still gives us free choice and will always give us free choice. Its all about being able to choose to love him. I just don't understand how that is hard to comprehend. Wouldn't you like to have free choice, and choose your road? The fact that God knows what is going to happen doesn't affect our choices, it just means that he knows what way we are going to choose. Now don't get confused, he may know what the outcome will be, but that outcome can always change, according to the way we, personally, choose to go. Now, I'm sorry for being condescending, I didn't mean to be. Let me know if you have any questions now, for the atheist guy. I'm sorry to say, but there are some major flaws in your thinking. The ONLY way to get to heaven is to believe in and follow God. You have to make him your God, and follow him. Thats the absolute ONLY way to get to heaven. Now amount of good works, or deeds will ever get anyone to heaven. Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
"I'm sorry but I fail to see how your arguement shows any form of reason." Not my fault. > The rest of your argument... I think you're still hung up on the ramifications of his having created the world knowing what entirely well what would occur from then. I'll try to explain bit by bit. "Yes, he knew what we would choose to do, he just chose not to stop us." The thing is, he created us KNOWING what we would do. He INTENTIONALLY CREATED a flawed humanity, never AT ANY POINT having ANY DOUBT IN HIS OMNIPOTENT MIND which of us would stray and which of us would choose to love him. That's not free will, it's an illusion thereof, no matter what it appears to look like on our end or the deal. > "He knows what everyone is going to do from the beginning all the way to the end, but he still gives us free will, and a choice." Like I said last time, this would be fine and good if he were ONLY all knowing. But he created the world with full knowledge of the results. Despite this knowledge, he created the world - and in effect, every event that would ever occur from it's creation - in it's flawed state. Your argument is like saying that an engineer who presses the button at the beginning of a Rube-GOldberd machine isn't responsible for the final reaction, because he isn't personally moving every mechanical part past the initial startup. The problem with your logic is, he BUILT THE MACHINE KNOWING FULL WELL WHAT IT WOULD DO. Now, expand that simple analogy to god as the engineer, with the universe as the machine. Where, pray tell, does the blame suddenly shift to us humans? > "but that outcome can always change, according to the way we, personally, choose to go." So wait, we humans can make choices that god didn't know at the beginning of the universe? We can take actions that god didn't see coming an eternity away? I'm...not sure you quite understand how omniscience works... Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
Im not going to research this maybe u can to reply but the all knowing doesnt mean knowing what hasnt happened. Which are the choices we make. I dont ever remember reading that god knows what your decision is going to be. What im sayin is as soon as something happens he knows which would make him all knowing but not before it exists. Yes the end of the world and the lake of fire he knows because thats his choice and he knows what his plans are. At the same time if GOD exists our feeble{?} minds would never be able to grasp understanding of him anyway Side: of course it is this isn't a debate
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