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Debate Info

142
182
Because of Man There is no God.
Debate Score:324
Arguments:130
Total Votes:413
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 Because of Man (69)
 
 There is no God. (61)

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eztone123(15) pic



Why Does God Allow Suffering?

This is a very common question Atheists ask because they do not know anything.

"Facts of Life
Some facts about life must be taken into account before we try to form a judgement:

  1. Man lives in a universe of cause and effect and the consequences of certain causes are inescapable. Fire burns, water drowns, disease germs destroy. These facts have moral implications. Men live in a universe in which the consequences of what they do are inescapable, and therefore their responsibility for what they do is equally inescapable. Without this burden of 'natural law' man could do as he liked with impunity, and there would be no responsibility. God made the universe this way because He is a moral God who makes men responsible beings with freewill to choose how they will act.
  2. Man's neglect and misuse of his own life has corrupted the stream of human life itself, and left evils which fall on succeeding generations. These, again as part of natural law, may manifest themselves as hereditary weaknesses and tendencies to disease. The very stuff of life may be affected as it is passed on from generation to generation.
  3. The consequences of man's acts are not only directly physical. The social and political evils which they have created throughout history have left a gathering burden on the generations following. People today are caught in a net of the consequences of past history, and even when they try to right one evil, another is brought to bear: "The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22)."

GG :D

Because of Man

Side Score: 142
VS.

There is no God.

Side Score: 182
5 points

I love how the athesists respond, they claim to not debate thesists, but they follow debate religion like it's their religion.

Side: Because of Man
6 points

I love how the athesists respond, they claim to not debate thesists, but they follow debate religion like it's their religion.

We (this writer) has never professed not to debate theists. This is a debating society. There are theists within it. Therefore no illusion can be made that atheists do not herein debate theists.

Side: There is no God.
zombee(1024) Disputed
4 points

Where did any atheist claim they never debate theists, much less all of them?

Side: There is no God.
2 points

do not forget that in addition to Yes, No, there is Unknow answer. People are not neural-networks.

Side: NULL
0 points

That is because atheism is a religion. The United States Supreme Court ruled that it was.

Side: Because of Man
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
1 point

I've already explained to you how it is not, why not dispute that argument, instead of putting your fingers in your ears and going na na na.

I also fail to see it's importance in this debate.

Side: There is no God.
catticus90(360) Disputed
1 point

The definition of religion

re·li·gion

noun /riˈlijən/ 

religions, plural

The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

- ideas about the relationship between science and religion

Details of belief as taught or discussed

- when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics

A particular system of faith and worship

- the world's great religions

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q;=religion&tbs;=dfn:1&tbo;=u&sa;=X&ei;=r_0KTu-KEpKzhAfa5bDNDw&sqi;=2&ved;=0CDAQkQ4&bav;=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp;=191443bee054f323&biw;=1366&bih;=667

Atheism involves none of these examples. Therefore it cannot be defined as a religion.

Side: There is no God.
5 points

god does not allow suffering. it is man himself who brings sufferings to him, by doing wrong deeds and stuff not really acceptable. what ever wrong happens, it comes back to man. sometimes, another man has to pay for some other man's doings.

Side: Because of Man
8 points

sometimes, another man has to pay for some other man's doings.

And therein lies the immorality of Christianity. The idea that one person should be punished for the crimes of another, or that one person can absolve another by taking on their punishment, is something that can never be accepted by a person who truly understands right from wrong.

Side: There is no God.
mitgag(1652) Disputed
2 points

And therein lies the immorality of Christianity. sorry but I have never read the bible, or any other religious text, so I don't really have much idea of what you talk about.

the idea that one person should be punished for the crimes of another,

I don't see any problem with that. another man has to sometimes pay for the wrong doings of some other man.

or that one person can absolve another by taking on their punishment, is something that can never be accepted by a person who truly understands right from wrong.

yeah, not many will accept that, but it is mostly true.

Side: Because of Man
zombee(1024) Disputed
5 points

god does not allow suffering.

The question of this debate is why God allows suffering, not if he does, as it's pretty obvious that he does allow it. Even if he is not the cause of it, he still permits it to occur when he has the knowledge of its occurrence and the power to prevent it.

sometimes, another man has to pay for some other man's doings.

One man commits a crime and goes unpunished while an innocent man suffers for it. This sounds okay to you?

Side: There is no God.
mitgag(1652) Disputed
2 points

The question of this debate is why God allows suffering, not if he does, as it's pretty obvious that he does allow it.

yeah. sorry, that is irrelevant.

One man commits a crime and goes unpunished while an innocent man suffers for it.

yep! that is true. US emits the highest pollution in the world. yet other countries too have too suffer for it. not all people are innocent. in fact most people have committed some or the other crime small or big. so actually no one is innocent after all. and they are somehow punished for their deeds.

This sounds okay to you?

reading my above data, yeah, it is perfectly fine to me.

Side: Because of Man
3 points

I absolutely agree with the reasoning above: We as people suffer because of the decisions WE make. When you love someone, do you force them into doing something or choosing to love you back? Or do you give them free will, a choice? If it is forced, it is not true love. That said, if God made us choose all the time the right thing to do without giving us the free will to make our own decisions, that would not be love. But, since He DOES love us, more than we will ever know, God gives us free will and a choice to do right or wrong. It all goes back to the beginning of human life: Adam and Eve. Eve CHOSE to listen to the serpent and disobey God. Adam CHOSE to follow after his wife's sin and eat of the forbidden fruit as well. You cannot tell me that Adam and Eve did not exist because that would mean that we didn't either and I am VERY much alive. All this being said, Man inflicts our own pain caused by the decisions we make. If we choose to do right, we won't have to suffer the consequences. We live in a universe of cause and effect. Even school teachers agree with that, and they don't have to be Christian. It is the truth whether you like it or not.

Side: Because of Man
6 points

When you love someone, do you force them into doing something or choosing to love you back? Or do you give them free will, a choice? If it is forced, it is not true love.

You mean the way you're forced to worship God or be tortured forever in a lake of fire? Got ya.

That said, if God made us choose all the time the right thing to do without giving us the free will to make our own decisions, that would not be love. But, since He DOES love us, more than we will ever know, God gives us free will and a choice to do right or wrong.

So what are you claiming here? Are you claiming God wasn't smart enough to allow free will without unspeakable suffering, or that he simply chooses to allow unspeakable suffering? It's one or the other.

Eve CHOSE to listen to the serpent and disobey God. Adam CHOSE to follow after his wife's sin and eat of the forbidden fruit as well.

There's the immorality of your religion again punishing the innocent for the crimes of others (and a fine example of how the Bible contradicts itself at every turn - Ezekiel 18:20 - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity"). Well we all know that's certainly not true don't we? Kinda makes you wonder what else in the Bible is untrue doesn't it? It should; unless of course you're a complete imbecile.

You cannot tell me that Adam and Eve did not exist because that would mean that we didn't either and I am VERY much alive.

You exist, therefor Adam and Eve existed? You don't know what a non sequitur is do you?

All this being said, Man inflicts our own pain caused by the decisions we make. If we choose to do right, we won't have to suffer the consequences.

How does this apply to a two year old girl missing an eye and most of her face after a pit bull attack?

Side: There is no God.
TheDude(165) Disputed
5 points

The argument questions Why God ALLOWS Suffering to happen, not why he DOES it. The point is, God allows men to kill other men and destroy his(God's) own value. Why? He himself supposedly holds man to be sacred, but both Testaments also state that god created man to worship him, Essentially saying that God was bored and is also a rather selfish being. If thats true, why believe in him? Why trust his word? Why like him? God gives you the choice of continuing to serve him in heaven for eternity or receiving damnation in Hell for eternity. Thats not really a great choice. Its like choosing to buy gas for 28.99 a gallon, or being lit on fire. Both kinda suck. Theres just no longer any reason to believe in this guy, in terms of existence OR virtue. Hes just a grumpy old father who doesnt feel like allowing his son to do what he wants, but that the son has to work for him every monday, tuesday afternoon, wednesday, thursday, Friday Night and saturday. Thats not a God Im a fan of.

Side: There is no God.
3 points

God gives us free will and a choice to do right or wrong.

yeah!!! god knows that people will grow by learning from their mistakes, and therefore allows them to make a mistake, and learn lessons from them.

If we choose to do right, we won't have to suffer the consequences.

yep. and if we choose to do wrong, we will suffer and learn our lessons, which will help us from making future mistakes.

Side: Because of Man
5 points

God allows suffering because we are all put on this earth to fullfill a job for God and to go through experiences for bad or for good. If God didn't allow suffering we would not have people that are different or unique. God wouldn't put you through it if he didn't think you could handle it. Everything we go through makes us who we are there is no one who is just like anyone else or has been through the exact same thing. He allows it to make us stronger and makes us understand things and see things differently.

Side: There is a God
4 points

you think this for you are i feel unaware of ancient vedic knowledge.

the suffering is not by god.. it due to your own past deeds.... you did in this life or in past life... yes i am talking about the karma theory....and rebirth... the truth ...study vedas the oldest literature of earth..

the suffering we have is due to the bad deeds we did in old lives.

obviously our old deeds are only reason for which some are deaf,dumb,blind,handicapped,poor from birth...while others are healthy,rich,capable...since birth..

i suggest you go to www.agniveer.com for getting a wider perspective.and note it is not my own site.

Side: Because of Man
4 points

it due to your own past deeds

the good you do stay with you and the evil you do come back to you, or something like that, is what I read somewhere. and I believe it very true. ewvil deeds come back to you someway or another.

Side: Because of Man
4 points

If there was no God then it has been explained that we wouldn't count for anything. No government, No punishment, No restraints. Kill anyone if you want. And if there is no God, then what are you working for? You mean nothing, All you are is nothing, you came from nothing and you will return to nothing, So in that case... Do we even exist? Yes, because there is a God and the ultimate reward is heaven, We work towards God.

Side: Because of Man
imrigone(761) Disputed
2 points

No government: the majority of the governments in the world today are secular.

No punishment: Secular governments punish. Groups of people can punish without government. Parents generally punish children that misbehave, regardless of their religious inclination.

No restraints: a society without restraint would not be very strong. We may not have lived long enough to get to this point without restraint. You don't need to be a theist to understand that logic. Theism CAN help drive that point home, but is not necessary to achieve that understanding.

Kill anyone you want: Religions have often had a tendency to kill, they just find religious support for it. There is strong genetic evidence of a disinclination to harm that exists in all people except those who are miswired or brain damaged. This inclination can obviously be overpowered, sometimes by greed, sometimes by emotion and sometimes by religious teachings.

What are you working for?: I try to do whatever I can to make the world a better place. I never needed any religion to tell me that is a noble goal. I simply need to have the ability to observe the world around me and have empathy, skills which most of us come packaged with at birth.

You mean nothing, all is nothing: Nonsense. There is obviously something all around us, more than anyone can properly conceive. If I came from nothing (which is not true, I am a physical manifestation of my parent's love) and will return to nothing, that only means that while I am here, while I am something, I have that much more incentive to do what I can and love life while I still have a chance to so do.

Do we even exist?: I have more evidence of my existence, and of YOUR existence (even though we have never met) than of God.

The ultimate reward of Heaven: The only reason you do good is because of a reward? Doesn't that make your good actions more selfish than anything?

Side: There is no God.
4 points

When we continue to lift the vail and pull back the curtain and deny God into are lives for greatness it is then we bring on suffering to ourselves by denying God. Man brings suffering to himself not GOD.

Side: Because of Man
3 points

Exactly!! But it's simply put this way, if God doesn't exist, then where do we come from?

Side: Because of Man
zombee(1024) Disputed
2 points

If the answer to this question is that we do not know yet, that does not show that God exists. It just shows that we do not know yet.

Human knowledge is not complete, but there is no reason to fill the gaps with a supernatural being.

Side: There is no God.
3 points

If you really think about it who created the social pyramid? Man of course. Why are there poor because some MAN said this is worth more than this. We have more than enough food in this world to feed its population yet Man won't allow it to be shared amongst its brothers. In The U.S.A. the government is paying farmers not to farm. Why? That is just as if you are giving your money away why not either pay the farmers to farm and sell that food to other countries poorer than the U.S.A. then boost up the economy. But no Man only cares for oneself .

Side: Because of Man
2 points

Why Does God Allow Suffering?

Because of the fags. They corrupt the rest of the world.

Side: Because of Man
2 points

The reason for God to allow suffering is simple really.

Just as parents have to eventualy let their children make mistakes knowing that the child may suffer as a result in order to prove that the child does not have all the answers...God MUST allow us to suffer our mistakes to prove to US that WE do not have the answers.

Side: There is a God
2 points

You know what, we Can debate this topic for the rest of our lives but I will just leave you all with this: I know what I believe to be true and the bottom line is, when it all comes to an end, my fellow believers in Christ and myself will be heaven while you non-believers burn in the Lake of Fire and after and eventually you will go to Hell, FOREVER. ETERNITY. THEN, you will see, but by then it will be too late. So believe what you want, whatever. I know where I'm going when I die. Where will you go when your last day on Earth? Think about that.

Side: There is a God
zombee(1024) Disputed
1 point

Perhaps this is not the best website on which to spend your time, if you believe an acceptable way to end a discussion is to basically shout, 'I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG THE END!'

Side: There is no God.
Debater2012 Disputed
2 points

Perhaps this isn't the best website to spend YOUR time on if you don't understand what the actual point of a debate is. I stated what I believe and know to be true. In a debate, both the Affirmative and Negative teams want to be right; to get their point across and win. And that is exactly what everyone is doing here. I just don't see the point in debating if you atheists are going to believe what you want anyway, despite what us believers and followers of Christ say to you all. Hence, my statement. And, for the record, no one is shouting anything. I'm simply expressing my point of view, no different from what you and everyone else here is doing. So thanks for your concern about where I spend my time, but your concern and opinion is not needed. Thanks. :)

Side: There is a God
2 points

You can't really be sure about anything to tell the truth, the only absolute in life is that of mathematical certainty.

No one can really dispel the idea of a god, and no one can prove it either. For me personally, I tend to be agnostic but lean towards deism.

As such, blaming something such as tragedy on a mythical being is pure poppycock, you can't prove it, certainly, but, on the whole, there is enough rational evidence to prove that man causes suffering. Even in the case of earthquakes, these are natural events and suffering only occurs when man acts and then forgets just a quick (I.E Haiti).

Side: Because of Man
2 points

We are each responsible for our own actions. We are taught to be good people, and yet we make stupid choices. God allows you free will, there for you are do your own suffering on your choice.

Side: Because of Man
2 points

I was lost in the Darkest parts of my own wicked ways, spiraling down a path of destruction leading me away from His Almighty ways, and all the while im going down ONLY ONE, He could save me. No matter how far i looked on this lowly planet, i never once found a soul who could manage, to show me the love that i truly needed, because on this planet aint nothing but hate and contempt have been breeded. the lowly snake slithering as he goes through the towns of man looking for lowly lowly souls, to feed on so that it could plant it's evil seeds, and so that throughout the generations nothing but evil and hate we could recieve, but those where the ways of the past, my brothers and sisters. the devil had a hold of us and he managed through our parents, down through the generations His ways have been lost, and because of the us, the devil has turned and tossed, We can All be saved, all we need is Thanksgiving, to the One who Above, for All of His Givings. The devils trying to stop me right now as i speak, but Faithful to the Lord and willit He, that i may be meek. Because it is He not i that gives you this message but it is The One that we All should seek. i know that it is hard to find Rest, as we all go through this test some call a game, every single last one of us, probably, training to gain and retain our fame. But That is not what this life is about, i have a Strong feeling that we are All getting our Water from the wrong wrong spout. because thats all the devil has for us is a little bit, of pleasure, then comes the pain. steady feeding our bodies what i see now Is Insane. because ya'll hafto see that we are all carnally minded, and This is the reason The LORD, us he has blinded, binding, ourselves to our own flesh, so that eventually we would All fail this Test. but know that The Lord, He loves us, and wishes nothing but the best, and all He wants is for us to Love Him all the while through this Test. some wonder why we see nadoes and quakes, He needs ya'll to know that its Ya'lls souls that He is trying to shake. and bake if you will, so the devil may not have his fill, to letchya'll know that there is NONE like that ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFULL ONE. i say full because Hes filled with Love, like None that we have seen on this lowly earth, but now that i have SEEN, my Eyes have been UnBlinded, and now it is He, He who signs this, letter so maybe that some of Ya'll could listen, and Maybe get the Message that He is trying to dish, out of His spout, so that ya'll might be fed, with all of His Love, His Water, And His Bread. Don't for a second think any of Ya'll are living, All of ya'll are dead and for the devil are you "living" as i sit here and do this all of the "dome" just know that it is Not me and that this is His tomb. He is singing through me in these words and this song, so that maybe one day we All can be free all the day long, and ya'll can say its cheesy if ya'll want, but just know the devil in you he does flaunt x) i had to stop and show ya'll how i felt about that one, cuz its the truth, and right now i have a Strong feeling He is swinging harder than that brother Babe Ruth, or ballin harder than micheal jordan, and in this song he Is Playing His Accordian. Ya'll just need to know that He is our Guardian, and right now im flying Higher than any single air jordan, because my love i gave to Him more than any of Ya'll so i guess i can say more than them. But dont getit twizted like boi's if ya'll know, that me and moreover Him, have a lot to show. we are all brothers and sisters, but i should call us the missers, because we all fail to see the smaller things in this world, without even thinking twice, what truly brings a man alot of happiness or to see the pain that ALOT of us have in us. i know that we are all hurting on the inside, and for ya'll who say we dont, Boi, you know that is a lie, because only with Him and not that evil leech from down south, can we truly fly. higher than the highest of trees or the tallest of mountains, But in Him we Have to trust, so that We may Drink From The One and Only True fountain, only because of Him can i do this for days, and its Because i gave Him my love, thanksgiving, and praise. so now that i have seen what it is truly to be Man, Men of God, all these hater out there who bout to say something aint nuthing more than sod. sorry if it dont make sense, just know that me and Him the latter first, We are just trying to give His children, ya'll some mother lovin cents. forgive me if i pause for no longer am i a vulgar man life is just a beach, and Now, He is playing in the sand, hopefully in the minds of the young, the daughters and sons, i have my holster, and now the Lord is my Gun, Shining Brighter, than a million suns, times two, because His love is True, actually make that twenty twenty, because He is aplenty, in me in you and All, i just hope that ya'll can hear His call, so that maybe that ya'll may not fall, into the Pit, but right now i can say the devil is probably having a fit, of anxiety cuz he is losing his "children" just know that we are God's and with me He has been pilfering, in my mind day and night, as i have been in my room trying to stay out of sight, of ya'll because all it seems like to me, that nothing to ya'll it would please, more, than to see one of your own fellow brother get shot and fall. when i look around me i dont see any real love, this evil surrounds me, but Now i DO NOT CARE, because the Lord, THE LORD, HE has found me. so now ya'll cannot touch, because with His love, im about to bust. with loving Faith and Trust, i put in Him, so that i can be led away from this life of sin, and Now that i have His Trust, my brotha's and sista's, not just the black ones, comeon now, that just is not a must, there is no such thing man, all that is, is nothing more than an evil thought, brought up in vain, so that maybe a man's soul, that leech, can be bought. Quit being evil, for it is Love, that should be sought, out so once again we may be fed from His Spout, for only He can give us what we need so that in the end we may succeed. my brothers and sisters all we need to do is Believe, and then, Anything, together, WE CAN ACHIEVE. this is an ode to ya'll so in hopes once again that ya'll may hear The Call, and will not fall, so one day me, ya'll, and The Almighty,Perfect, like a prefect without the er, Omnipotent, and Patient ONE, that together we May All Ball. and they keep telling me to stop, but i just cant my brothers me and Him are headed to the top, and right now i got The Heart Of A Lion, King, and pray tell me my brothers and sisters who are reading, what single Beast can stop that king? of the jungle we are running but with Him we can be free. out into the open pasture we all can roam, just know this is not me, and that this is His Tomb. its wierd how they're spelled alike but do not rhyme, im talking bout bomb my brothers, and its One of a Kind. in the Hopes that this petty rhyme, can help lead the black sheep, away from the Blind, being themselves, for who? tell me can save them from that? if you dont answer right then your a part of this blight that runs rampant through the streets, evil im talking about and all it wants to do is eat, your souls because it is angry at the Living God, hahahaha for it is nothing more than a sod, on His Cleat as He is Running, Hoping that some of these Words, hit you right in the stomach, and make you sick, but not you, im talking about the evil you, for we are all children of God, but we have made ourselves nothing more than a sod =( i say with a heavy heart, because all this time we have been playing the devil, his part, but with Him it is nothing but a fart, because He Forgives, and Only Through Him may we EVER, get the chance to Live, and im not talking about on the earth, im talking about another, and maybe one day you can see and i can Truly call you my Brother, for there is Life in Death, but it is only gained through this life which is a test, just know that when we die, if you have lived righteously, on that day you will Fly, for the Lord will Breathe His Breath in you when you die and like i said before You Will Fly, but not if you keep eating from the devil's table, for you can only eat from one, and i hope its Not the devil's table. for if we Eat from Him, we can All go back into His Stable, and only in doing that can we Ever truly be stable, only only if, we are eating from, The Living God's Table. and for ya'll who are sitting at your computers steadily dissin Him, i pray for you, because it you are missin, Him and the bigger picture, just know right now im taking a Big Gulp From His Ultimate Pitcher, not one from the MLB, and if you are listening then i pray that you sea, i mean see, but with Him we can fly over the one before, and higher than mike, dunk it in, right for a score, but not for 2 for it is for 3, because He is Holy in me, but atm holy in you, because you missing some parts, we all need to change, so that we may play His Part, that He intended from the Beginning, because only With Him can we ever be winning, but hahahaha not as long as we are sinning. for that is not the way that we was meant to walk, With Him we was mean to Walk and Talk. once again i say this way i, used to, but we choose to live, is insane in the membrane, but He is using me as His Template, lol or templar whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, ha just without the errrr. as i sit here steadily dissin em i mean the demons in the minds of the children of the One and Only, God Who Is Kind, i hope that they depart, so we can All gaze upon The Divine, not like wine or watch, i aint lil wayne, just know that i feel like im the only one who is sane. because i AM NOT PERFECT, do not get the wrong message for that would hurt me, only He is, and He just wants some love from His Kids, but for some odd reason... we still choose to do the evil leeches bids, for i feel he has sucked to much from us, all of our blood, i mean soul, it has tucked from us, and right now He is aiming at it with a Big Ol' Blunderbuss. to shoot it and unleech it, from His Children's Soul's so one day maybe we can gaze upon, That Wonderful City Of Gold, and dont letit peak your in ter ests, for if you do your not getting whats bests, from this test that He has beset, for our minds to ponder and think on, maybe in some of the hearts out there this message is shining, for He is a Beacon of Light, to shine out all the evils, and end this ugly, hateful blight, that courses through our vains, that nasty garbage that makes us feel insane, because no one is living right, and for That NONE is sane. you can talk and sit there and chatter, but i pray and hope that none get fatter, and im not talking because of mcdonalds, im talking about your ego and pride, because We Alll NEED to push that aside, all we seem to do is breed hate and contempt, sitting there looking for another hurt sould to feed on, thinking it makes us content, but just know NOW people, lolol all your doing is letting the devil be your PIMP! ha ha ha i think that really funny, because in the words of man that just makes ya'll some ho's, and please forgive my trespasses my sisters and brothers, for my vulgar words, because i Did Not mean to hurt, He's just trying to keep our faces from being rubbed in the dirt. but it really shouldnt matter because we are mud, and from One we all came, so can i not call ya'll blood??? nah im not talking about them two glock shotta's, im talking bout from The One Who Has Always Got Us, not us as in the navy, i mean us as in the ones who might sit on that bus, the one going to school and to the ones who drool in class, and all of us who needs a kick in the, pause, ya'll know what i mean, im just sitting here trying not be obscene, all im trying to do is get the bigger picture, through ya'll minds so that maybe one day, we can All WALK IN THE LORDS WAY. forgive me if i make any of ya'll mad, if i do know that i Am sad, but how about ya'll just go to the store and go and grab on of them happy hefty bags, you know i meant glad if you didnt you are simple, and forgive me as i sit here and bust this pimple, lol sorry that was nasty just know that i didnt, and know that we are all fake, and its time for some rhino plasty, or however its spelled im just hoping some hearts will melt, like the plastic we are, and become melded into flesh, as i sit here and type in this Soul Food test, for if ya'll can't hear me then your hearts are so cold, forgive me as i trespass, because, uhm, i Am not trying to be bold, im just tryna through some fia atcha hearts, in the hopes that you may leave the Dark, ness not loch just in case thats watchu thought, all you gotta do is leave your flesh behind, and know that He is the one who Should Be Sought, out so we can drank From His Spout, cuz the Lord Knows, man it has been a drought. we are all so thirsty, but in order to be filled its The Lord who must come firsty x) just know that me and Him are going Stooopid, and for those who are real maaan i thoughtchu knew it. and if you dont i pray you haven't already blew it, up i mean your ego, like a balloon, just know right now i feel like taz boi, yup them looney toones, or tunes whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, just without the err. and i say pre because He was always here, yes before you and me, but with Him i wanna letchu know that we can all be as pure, and as white as the snow, just like powder we can all be melted, i mean melded into the beings we were meant to be, so one day we may fly free as a dove, Right over the sea, so that we all can reach New Jerusalem, yup just right where we was all meant to be, that is the Golden City for those who did not, know, im just hoping that one day we can All be as pure as the snow, because the evil has taunted and flaunted and given us a show, to peak i mean perk up our ears and it, that leech i mean, gave us nothing but fears, fears of ourselves and one another, fears from our sisters and daughter, Father, and brothers, but we have a right to Fear the Living God, because to Him we have all become a sod, He is sorrowful and cries as we follow, the evil being, who was never meant to be followed, and i felt His pain at one point in time, yes i Am talking About the Divine, we both cried together, in my room, because of the little things we miss, something just as small as, a heartfelt kiss... for it is the little things that bring us the greatest joy, not some diamond chain, or a, wind up toy, the biggest thing of all that should, is His Love, should bring us the Greatest joy, in the world, for thats all it is man just cars and noise, all the long going our way, Missing the sweetest noise, zes ya'll know what i mean, im talking about the One who is Never obscene, for He is Just And Right, in each and every single way, and for our sins my borhters and sisters, we have to pay, but do not fret for it is never to late, I think we all need to call upon The Divine, and we should All go on a date, do not worry for on this date there is no rape, or murder, or hate, for that is of the devil, and Your Soul it will take, there is no worries once you follow Him, we should all be hand in hand as we walk down this path, called, life Never having to worry about no pain or strife, or for a bigger picture His Wrath, but ONLY IF WE DRINK FROM HIS PITCHER. for The All Powerful and Righteous Wrath, only comes when you stray from His Path, it is there to show us our wrongs...can you feel His Soul as i sit here and Sing His song? and with Him i will NEVER fall, because with my Brother, I will always Hear His Call. i say we but it is Him, who say these words to in the hopes, that those who have an Ear to listen may never Fall, into the Pit, all you have to do is have Faith, Follow The Ten, Believe, and never EVER Quit, for in order to gain His All Perfect and Good Graces, we have to eliminate ALL the Hate and evil, in all sorts of places, i have a feeling this song was wrote long before, just in His mind and now in mine, and i sing His song in the Hopes, that you follow Him and not any of these "popes" for no hope lies in them, lol and if you truly think aboutit that actually rhymed, just know that im thinking of Him, foremost, but ya'll too as i steadily write This Rhyme, it comes from above yup, Straight From the Divine, in the Hopes that one day ya'll can SEE, exactly it was that we was missing, so we can All fly over the sea. Man this thing is long but i should Say God, because this is His Rhyme, and not from a sod, like me or you, if you real you can feel its True, as His Sword aims at the hearts of His good, flying Straight and Through, lol i mean True, but them if you can follow my friend, all we gotta do is sing Praises and Thanksgiving to Him, until the very end, and give Him all of our love, Because WITHOUT HIM, ha There WOULD BE NO LOVE, all there would be is pain and suffering, and i hope that the ones who are, suffer, i mean acating, Might actually stop and take the time to sit there and be debating, against the devil of course, cuz all it wants to do is, lead us, right, or left, but straight off our course. Lord Please Forgive me, if i am being coarse just know that i am your back, and You Are My Horse, lol ya'll might think He's heavy but He's really not, and i Love Him till Death, i mean Life, cuz i have found It, but back to the point, because i HE HAS TAUGHT, never went to church or none of that, maybe when i was younger but none of that, for our minds our are churches, ha gotit backwards but i feel as tall as the burches, talking bout them trees man im over the seas man, just know i cant, wait, My Father, until You Kick Over My Can Man x) aw man i thoughit was funny, because he's One Cool Dude, and i am His, Bunny, i mean Collie, and know that as i, i mean He, but as i bark, that i have a Strong feeling, that i am playing my Part, or His i prefer the latter but the choice is yurs, because it is His Puzzle, and i am the last part, i cant be for certain because the Knowledge is His, but im just trying to bring His Black Sheep back, you know i mean His KIDS, He thoughtit was funny, But ya'll best Believe that He NOR i the first comes first, but neither one of us is No, pause, Dummy, lol but if you choose you can beat and bite, whatever you do just know it is out of spite, and i dont capitilize because its an evil word, just know me and HIM, are trying to end this wrongful blight, and saying these words i Hope that maybe, just maybe some can be given the Sight, that HE intended us to have, right, from Go, talking bout monopoly,lol but no no more, from the start maaaan all HE ever wanted was us to give our heart, which is HIS, because He gave to us, All that is HIS, HE just Wanted someone to talk to man, thats why HE made HIS Kids, HE was all alone, and then HE built, a Beautiful place for us, and HIM, to walk and talk all the while, just laughing and talking, seeing eachother smile =) because HE is our FATHER, He's not as mean ha as ya'll would believe, just know that HE TRULY IS ONE BENEVOLENT KING. lol ha ha i think this is funny, He knows what im talking about, cuz this is all of the top of the dome with barely a second to pause, Just Know the THE LION KING, Has Opened HIS Claws, Blessed be the children who took the time to listen, to the message that a, and The King is steadily dishin, i say a because i am one too, but know that im a servant, and from a Seed i did Grew, i dont care if it makes no sense to ya'll because i have heard the Lords Call, and they, they know who they are, are always listening, and as He types, through, me i have a feeling they are about to call, Prayer is the Best Wireless Connection X) aint no service down here got that type of Connection, i just hope that i get to see some of ya'll at that intersection, i mean Crossroads, bone thugz n harmony, they said it first, man thats the song man and if you feel their soul, then maybe you should hurt, because those bois on the streets back in the day, all they was doing was searching for some Peace, but in the streets, the oppressors, following the devil, have no love for us in the slums, just know that we All have a Holster and God Is our Gun, we dont need no metal, for The Lord our issues HE will settle, all you gotta do is Have some Faith, saying this in hope that some dont see any wraiths, talking demons people come now and please listen, as the Lord spits his song and these Words HE is dishin, out yup you getting it word of mouf, lol or mouth whichever you prefer just DONT follow that lowly snake, yup the one down south, it might try and offer pleasure and happiness butits all fake, HA what do ya'll expect from a lowly snake? remeber eve as she sat under that tree? sitting there thinking and feeling the breeze? the snake spoke in her Ear temptation it did bring, and after teel me WHO did she fear? she had a split second of happiness and thats all it can give, and after that she felt the WRATH which is ONLY HIS, lol i hope that ya'll see, the way we live people, it just wasn't meant to be, i have a feeling that there all up there laughing, with, not at me as i type out His message, and i pray ALMIGHTY FATHER, THE ONES WHO HAVE AN EAR TO LISTEN PLEASE FATHER PLEASE LET THE HEAR. and the ones who dont i pray you dont hit him hard, maybe just a little tap, just like Babe Ruth, on that baseball card x) Peace be with you my sisters and brothers, just know that HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER, GOD BLESS ALL WHO FINISHED, AND I PRAY YOUR SOULS NEVER, DIMINISH. ONE HEART IS ALL, AND WITH THAT HEART WE CAN NEVER FALL, lol i said i was finished, but i dont think HE is as you can tell this words are not mine, THEY COME FROM THE UPPER BEING, yup THE DIVINE!!! i think im going to cut Him short and please Forgive me, because i know HE could go all day, BECAUSE I CAN FEEL HIM IN ME.

Side: Because of Man
2 points

It is real simple, sin. Sin is what makes everything deteriorate. Therefore, with deterioration you will have suffering.

Side: Because of Man
2 points

This question is a difficult one, one that I do not think we will know an answer to until God explains it to us. My feeble attempt at explaining a portion of it goes like this:

The whole idea of sin came from Satan (Lucifer, at the time) saying that God's laws were unjust, that he should be allowed as much power as God Himself. In a universe created by God and God's laws, there really was no 'other side' to compare it with. How 'just' would it have been if God destroyed Satan then and there before sin ever entered the mix? Wouldn't creation then follow God out of fear, not love?

God is no tyrant, an He is wiser than anyone. But even we humans can see that any government would be considered bad if it simply killed anyone who had any opposing thoughts. No, in order for justice to be seen as justice, the consequences of going against God's law have to be visible.

That's what our suffering is: the result of leaving God's love. And there always will be suffering as long as Satan lives.

Good parents will allow the consequences of their child's actions to come to them (as long as they're not too severe, like death). If children are shielded, how can they learn? Little kids will push their parents' rules to the limit, to see what will happen. If the rule is just and fair, they will probably get hurt, and realize the reason for the rule. A kid may not understand why they shouldn't touch the stove until they actually do.

God told Adam and Eve not to 'touch the stove', and they did. And we're still suffering the proverbial burns.

Side: It's too complex for us to understand
2 points

When God created humans, he gave them free will, so we could make desisions for ourselves, feel emotions and learn from the consequences of our actions. He did this to stop us being robots. We, however, misused this free-will, and went round stealing food from the mouths of the hungry and money from the pockets of the poor. Condem me for it, but this is my opinion, and I will stick with it for life.

Side: We misused the free will he gave us
1 point

their is a god and if you say their is no proof you haven't been reading the bible or or only doing 2 minutes of research. plus on day we all will know if god is real how else do you think we got on this planet how did was this solar system been created................

Side: Because of Man
1 point

god allows suffering. agreed. but saying its a test is wrong. He knows what will happen. and He knows how we'll deal with it. When He causes suffering, He knows we wouldn't be able to take it. so He causes suffering to make us more fore-bearing. He simply makes us go through something difficult, so we know how to deal with it when the tough stuff comes.

Side: Because of Man
1 point

I think because of man God allow suffering. I have ound those who are dishonest have to suffer most.

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Side: Because of Man

What is life without suffering? How can we know good without knowing evil? I would say that if good exists then evil must have a place to so the will of the human race can be free.

Side: Because of Man
Jace(4757) Disputed
1 point

And why is it, precisely, that the will of the human race must be free?

Side: There is no God.

It doesn't have to. However it's essential that will should be free in order to understand life concepts. It allows us to actually live. If will is restricted you are nothing more than a machine. By giving humans suffering they may know good and evil and right and wrong. Otherwise everything would just be neutral or unlabeled.

Side: There is no God.
1 point

Maybe he hopes that we will learn from our mistakes... assuming that he's real.

Side: Because of Man
1 point

I love this argument. I can not vote any answer. Personal Loans Louisburg

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Side: Because of Man
1 point

God allows us to bear suffering. I found interesting to read this article.

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Side: Because of Man

This is a perplexing question and I don't think anyone can provide a right answer.

Side: Because of Man
11 points

This is quite simple really.

If God does not exist, suffering is explained.

If the unjust bloodthirsty warmongering baby-killing slave-trading racist misogynistic tyrannical God-douche-dictator of the Bible exists, suffering is explained.

GG :D

Side: There is no God.
BornAgain(2) Disputed
4 points

God does exist.

If there were no God, there would be no atheists.

How can you counter this argument? (Hint: You can't)

Side: Because of Man
imrigone(761) Disputed
4 points

"If there were no God, there would be no atheists. How can you counter this argument? (Hint: You can't)"

Nope. All you need to have in order to have atheists is to have the concept of God. Atheists are denying that the concept is true.

I say that unicorns do not exist. Does that mean they have to exist in order for me not to believe in them? Of course not. All I needed to form that opinion was to understand the concept of unicorn, and to have no evidence of such a thing.

Side: There is no God.
Bohemian(3861) Disputed
3 points

Leprechauns do exist.

If there were no leprechauns, there would be no leprechaun deniers.

How can you counter this argument? (Hint: you can't)

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I just did.

Side: There is no God.
Bohemian(3861) Disputed
3 points

Your argument essentially assumes that man cannot think of something that does not exist, or that a subject must be real for people to disbelieve in it. Which we can easily demonstrate is untrue. It's an argument against man's own creativity.

Side: There is no God.
Debater2012 Disputed
2 points

It's quite ironic how you perceive God to be this awful, unjust being, yet, you fail to speak about the God that made the Heavens and the Earth, the God who has always been there with you no matter how many times you screw up, the God who wakes you up in the morning (no not your alarm clock) and the very same God who knew you BEFORE you were formed in your mothers womb! This same awful God that you speak of is the same AWESOME God who continues to keep His Worthy Hand on your life! No, you cannot physically see God, this is true. But you also cannot physically see Satan so why is it so easy to believe the negative rather than the positive? That's just it, we as humans naturally choose to believe the bad before we believe anything that is good. The positive has to be PROVEN to us, while we automatically believe that evil has always been present, no questions asked. Nothing in this world exists without its opposite, this can be proven by simply looking around you. So if evil has always existed, where has good been all this time? Answer: IT'S ALWAYS BEEN HERE!!! So if you are going to mention God as being all the awful things that you just listed, remember, MAN is the exact same WAY THAT you perceive God to be. It wasn't God who traded slaves, it was PEOPLE. God did not start the Jim Crow laws or the Ku Klux Klan, HUMANS did so God is NOT racist. God cannot be a dictator because He does not MAKE us do anything. He gives us a choice, free will. Whether you chose to believe in HIM or not is a choice that you make everyday. If God was a dictator, He could simply snap his fingers and MAKE you love HIM and believe in Him. So don't forget to mention the goodness of God when mentioning how horrible you THINK he is.

Side: Because of Man
5 points

It's quite ironic

No it's not ironic. Why do so few people understand what irony is? It was Ironic when the owner of Segway rode a Segway off a cliff and died. I hope this helps.

how you perceive God to be this awful, unjust being, yet, you fail to speak about the God that made the Heavens and the Earth,

I will not speak of the worst mass murderer in history with fondness. I don't have a soft spot for an evil being who demands that men murder their children.

If I knitted you a sweater for Christmas, but shortly thereafter punched you in the face and raped your mother, how would you perceive me?

He gives us a choice, free will. Whether you chose to believe in HIM or not is a choice that you make everyday. If God was a dictator, He could simply snap his fingers and MAKE you love HIM and believe in Him.

I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me" - Exodus 20:5

So he wants you to use your free will to worship him, because if you don't, he'll punish four generations of your children (because he loves you). I'm sorry, you're just stupid.

So don't forget to mention the goodness of God when mentioning how horrible you THINK he is.

So don't forget to tell people I knitted you a sweater for Christmas before I punched you in the face and raped your mother.

Side: There is no God.
1 point

Saying That God is the creator of suffering is incredibly ignorant. God did not create suffering. He created a perfect world. However He created man in his image with the gift of free will. Everything that has happened in our incredibly sinful world is mans doing. God did not force people to make the decisions they did. He simply allows it because any involvement from God denies humans free will. He does not contradict himself. This is such a simple answer. Choices have consequences. If you can prove to me that my choices have no consequences I will gladly hear you out. Until you can do that quit blaming God for decisions you, and others including myself have made.

Side: There is no God.
zombee(1024) Disputed
2 points

If you put a rat in a room with a piece of food, and then repeatedly shock it every time it gets near the food, it will eventually become afraid to go near the food. When it does, you can't shrug your shoulders and say "The rat has free will, it's not my fault he's afraid of the food."

When God created a perfect world, he knew and in fact must have planned for it to be 'ruined' by humans. He could have just as easily created the first humans with free will, but a little less curiosity, a little less gullibility, a little more obedience, or just no interest in that particular fruit. But he didn't, and it was on purpose. He knew Eve would encounter the snake exactly when she did and he knew at that time, she would not be able to resist...because of the way he created her. She was a product of her genetics and her environment and experiences, just as we all are. According to the Bible, God is the sole designer of both our genetics and sole engineer of our environment and experiences, he is responsible for everything that happens on his creation, good and bad. When he created the world, he set it on a trajectory it had no choice but to follow, and unless he's know all-knowing, he knew exactly what that trajectory would be, down to the tiniest detail.

Side: There is no God.
1 point

If God does not exist, suffering is explained.

Okay? Even if a god did exist would he be obligated to eliminate suffering? I don't think a god would. What if the god was completely malevolent? Even if the god was completely benevolent would it be benevolent of the god to allow evil so man may understand happiness? I feel as if you cannot fully understand good or happiness without evil or sadness.

If the unjust bloodthirsty warmongering baby-killing slave-trading racist misogynistic tyrannical God-douche-dictator of the Bible exists, suffering is explained.

So then you argument is basically a bunch of poo and you only wish to insult the Christian god further? Even if God 2x as worse as your list above would that obligate him to eradicate evil? Again, I feel like suffering is essential to human understanding and experience.

Side: Because of Man
LoveU(348) Disputed
-1 points

...........................................................................

Side: Because of Man

Either because God just doesn't give a shit or he simply doesn't exist.

Side: There is no God.
CharterP(8) Disputed
1 point

God gave us free will. We make decisons because we are wicked sinful people. That is our doing not Gods. Stop blaming God and see that you are a sinner and you are the one that is doing wrong. I will tell you right now I am a terrible person who has made many bad decisions that have affected my life with a tremendous amount of suffering. God did not make me suffer. The decisions I made are what caused me suffering.

Side: Because of Man

Either because God just doesn't give a shit

This here, wouldn't you say there are other options you didn't touch on? Like is God obligated to eradicate suffering? Or is suffering essential to human understanding?

Side: There is no God.
7 points

God as thought in the Bible, the Quran and the Torah is at all times omniscient, omnipotent, omni benevolent and omnipresent. The irony is that all these contradict each other.

If God is all-knowing then it would go against said power if he did not know all the outcomes of the time line that he set out, populated by the people that he put in.

God would have to have planned suffering and all associated bad things in order for the omnipotent omniscient thing to even start working. So not only does God allow suffering, he created it.

This is then contradicted when you consider his omni-benevolence.

Side: There is no God.
Genesis1vs1(31) Disputed
1 point

Your argument about God not knowing sin would enter the world is incorrect.

1 Peter 1:19-20 "but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake."

Side: Because of Man
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
1 point

Your argument about God not knowing sin would enter the world is incorrect

I didn't state this. Did you read my post? I stated that God would have to have known and planed for everything negative that has ever happened. So if he does exist which I doubt. He is a horrible playful deviant.

Are you stating from your biblical passage that God did indeed plan for evil and sin. He also went out of his way to send his son, (which is himself mind) down to suffer a horrible agonizing death. Why? What did this prove? None of this makes sense in the view of God the omniscient omnipotent creator.

.

Side: There is no God.
Uspwns101(444) Disputed
1 point

You fail to understand how Gods plan works. His plan is adaptable. It allows for the variable of free will and by analyzing everything that happens and the character of people God is able to discern what will happen. He then sets up the best possible outcome for any given situation. As soon as something changes God's plan changes. Example Adam and Eve sinned therefore God changed his plan to fit the circumstance and created Israel and later Jesus. If your going to say that then Gods plans fail I will reinstate that Gods part did not fail peoples did.

Side: Because of Man
ricedaragh(2500) Disputed
2 points

You fail to understand how Gods plan works.

I don't fail to understand anything here. What you fail to grasp is the central irony of Abrahamic dogma, the idea that an omniscient omnipotent creator would not know every outcome of his sick little story before he brought it in to existence goes completely against said powers attributed to him/her/it.

He then sets up the best possible outcome for any given situation.

I suppose giving a child cancer is the best possible outcome in that situation, right? Or how about the burning of women as witches. That was probably for the best too. Maybe mass genocide was a great decision on his behalf.

As soon as something changes God's plan changes.

How can you not see what is wrong with this?

Adam and Eve sinned therefore God changed his plan to fit the circumstance and created Israel and later Jesus.

Do you honestly believe in the Adam and Eve story as literal truth, even the catholics know that one is but a story.

If your going to say that then Gods plans fail I will reinstate that Gods part did not fail peoples did.

An all knowing all powerful creator would had to have known how this would play out. The actions of man in the eyes of said creator carry no weight or moral responsibility. Man is but a puppet of God, were he to exist.

Side: There is no God.
4 points

Biased and skewed religious viewpoints aside, a realistic explanation for why there is suffering in the word is because their simply is no god. The Christians and Catholics can make up any excuse they want to, fine. But what about the rest of the 5 Billion people on the planet, hmmm?

Side: There is no God.
3 points

If everything said in the top argument is true, then why does god allow the universe to stay its course? If he knows that man will eventually corrupt itself beyond selfrepair or savior, then why does he allow its continued existence? Does he not care about man? It would seem outrightly so. If this is true, why should we not turn our backs on a creator who has done such to us? Why continue assailing a god who doesnt give a shit? Theres no point. And if he turns around and realizes that were no longer caring ourselves and demands that we worship him once again, why should we worship and listen to a hippocritical five-year-old deity?

Side: There is no God.
2 points

How can a loving God allow, for example, a five-year-old child to be raped and murdered because it is supposedly so incredibly important to give humans the ability to rape and murder a child? Why does he grant this ability to anyone, if he is loving?

The stock-standard answer of "because he wants us to have free will and free will entails consequences arising out of our choices" doesn't wholly explain this.

Firstly, when this child is raped and murdered, the murderer doesn't suffer for it. It's the child and the child's family who suffers. As far as the murderer is concerned, the consequences are irrelevant.

Secondly, if God believed free will to be so important that he'd allow enormous suffering for its sake, why has he given us such restrictions as we do have? For example, maybe what the murderer would really have loved to do is erupt like a volcano and spew lava around him, and kill the child that way. But he isn't able to, because it's not part of his physiology as a human. Why not? If God wanted us to choose our own destinies why didn't he give us as much ability as he could? Why does he give us such arbitrary restrictions, allowing us to rape and murder but not allowing us to do something like healing with the touch of a hand, or saving a life through the power of love alone?

Thirdly, why does God equip us with the definite ability to do both good and evil, but then propagate his instruction manual (the Bible) in such a roundabout and indefinite way? Being omnipotent, he could have sent visions and miracles to each of the 6 billion people on Earth, in order to convince them that he exists and that the Bible really is the truth and that they should do good only. A lot of people don't believe in God not because they're evil or stupid, but because there is rather limited evidence that he actually exists. A quick educational campaign by the Lord himself would have been far more effective than generations of preachings.

A mother who raises her son by allowing him to do anything he damn well pleases is not a good mother; she's a terrible one. But when God "raises" humanity the same way, he's doing a great job?

A teacher who watches on passively while one student exercises his free will to kick and punch another student isn't a good teacher at all; she's a seriously negligent teacher. But when God looks upon the suffering of innocents and does nothing, he's doing a great job?

An inventor who builds a flawed invention shouldn't blame the invention for being flawed; he should blame himself for not making his invention good enough. But when God creates a flawed humanity then sends humans on a massive guilt trip about their flaws, he's doing a great job?

Side: There is no God.
clearEn(207) Disputed
1 point

First, I appreciate your concise argument style, full of spaces and punctuation, not to mention brilliant spelling. Your questions are interesting, and I don't think anybody can answer them satisfactorily. I will try my best.

1 It is true that the murdered doesn't care. If he cared, he wouldn't do it. I have no idea how to answer this. I can only say it is the Church's job, as the body of Christ, to console those who've lost and help those in need. It may not due much in this case, but miracles have been known to happen. But if the Church actually got invovled in the world a bit more, it would help alleviate the suffering, and maybe demonstrate God's love a bit better[1][2].

2 The only thing I can say to this is God worked/works through people. I probably can't use the Bible here, as you sound athiestic, but there may be people who walk close enough to God that they can heal at the touch of a hand.

3 If God did open up the sky and talk with a massive booming voice, convincing everyone that He did exist, great. But how long would it be until that happening would pass from history to fantasy (such as the Bible seemed to have done a while ago), and people once again fall away? You see, He did that[3] in the past (Exodus 20, 1 Kings 18:19-39), and it has since fallen away.

As for evidence, what about miracles? My brother-in-law's friend recently had cancer. The doctors had pictures of the multiple tumors in his body. Just before he went into treatment, however, they took more pictures and showed that the tumors had gone. Disappeared. What could have caused that besides God? There are many such miracles. No, I don't know why they happen to some and not to others (for I had a great friend who died from Breast Cancer), but it still cannot be ignored. He's done enough in my life alone for me to believe, without having to look outside.

As for him doing nothing to the suffering of others, that is just false. God works through people. It may sound corny or just a way of weasling out of an argument, but there are thousands of people who flock to disaster areas (such as the Haiti quake) to help out. Those who return don't say, "Where was God in there?" but "THERE was God!"

And humanity isn't 'flawed'. God built us with free will. What would be the point of even creating humanity if we were just robots? God doesn't want robots, He wants people. He loves us, even when we don't do what He wants. I know it's a lame argument, but that what I have.

Once again, I know I probably won't convince you, but I tried. We'll just have to wait until we get to Heaven to ask God why many things happened. I hope to see you there!

------

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUqCbZ6Seuo

[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpMDaptXfKk

[3] These examples aren't making the whole world believe, but they're still extreme examples of God's Power.

Side: It's too complex for us to understand
Peekaboo(704) Disputed
1 point

Thank you, I do try hard to make my comments readable, in order to counteract the tl;dr effect. And I have to admit, I'm surprised that your reply is so reasoned and polite. I was expecting to see rambling preachy invective, since I had taken such an antagonistic stance in my argument.

Yeah, I'm agnostic. I see the Bible as a collection of writings of varying authority - some of them purely fairytales, some of them history unreliably passed down through word of mouth and later transcribed in writing, and some of them pretty accurate firsthand accounts.

I tend to categorise Biblical accounts of miracles into the fairytale or unreliable history sections, because there is so little modern, scientific evidence to support the possibility of miracles. I'm aware that some people are trying to uncover reliable evidence for miracles, but so far the evidence against them are simply overwhelming.

I also know that quite a lot of people, like you, relate to having personally experienced or witnessed miracles. While one possibility is that God really does exist and performed these miracles, there are many other possibilities:

A. They're not miracles at all, just everyday events that happened to be very fortuitous, and hence get interpreted as miraculous. (e.g. A certain disease has a 90% mortality rate. Most patients die, 9% survive but barely, 1% survive and recover remarkably well. The 1% might interpret their recovery as a miracle when in fact it was just statistics.)

B. They're psychological events. A number of psychologically healthy people do experience sound or sight hallucinations, and medical stimulation of the eye or brain could create visions or overwhelming feelings of a spiritual presence (e.g. the God helmet).

C. There is a scientific explanation for the supposed miracle, but it hasn't yet been discovered. (The Gospels say that during the crucifixion, there was darkness on the whole land. In medieval times that was a miracle. Today we call it an eclipse.)

D. They're faked. A number of miracles have been discovered to be bogus (e.g. Weeping Virgin Mary statues).

I suspect your example of the friend with the disappearing tumours fits into category A and/or C. In modern times with our heavy reliance upon medication and surgery, we are always surprised when an illness goes away of its own accord. But we are also constantly discovering how adaptable and strong the human body is, and how well people respond to natural treatments. Of course, you can say that this is because God has created us to be so wonderful, but atheists will just as easily say that we have adapted over millions of years of physical hardship to be what we are today.

---------------

Yes, religious organisations are responsible for a lot of charitable acts past and present, which is a great thing. But those aren't acts of God's love; they're acts of the love of humans who believe in God and believe that they're acting upon God's will. And being merely human, they'll never be able to end or reverse suffering, only to alleviate or attempt to prevent them.

---------------

I agree that if massive, indisputable miracles had been performed in the ancient past, over time it would have turned into mythology and no longer believed. But:

(1) There's no reason why God, in his infinite power, couldn't regularly perform these miracles to instruct each new generation,

and

(2) In modern times, it's become far less likely that history will turn into mythology with the passage of time. The reason that it's so hard to separate fact from fiction in history is that they left so few records, they didn't clearly distinguish between fact and fiction even amongst themselves (ancient historians saw no problem with inventing details like speeches and personal details), and often didn't see the need for rigorous scientific study. Unlike them, we frantically write anything and everything down, keep duplicate records, cross-reference many sources, and subject everything to scientific bombardment. If a worldwide miracle happened today, it's not going to be forgotten or brushed off as a fanciful tale.

---------------

The part about flaws - I see your point. Free will wouldn't be very free if we were incapable of acting in evil ways, or even of having evil thoughts. (Though I still think that physical restrictions, like the inability to erupt like a volcano, are strangely arbitrary and not explainable by anything other than the theory that we became what we are through evolution, which is based on the essentially random process of genetic mutation.)

My other point in that paragraph was that I dislike the Biblical description of sin. The entire story about humanity's creation, then fall from grace resulting in the need for redemption, and various Biblical punishments enacted for sin... to me, it reeks of psychological manipulation. And for people who interpret Genesis literally, I think manipulation is exactly what it is. God created a couple of humans, put a massive source of temptation right where they lived, sat back and watched while they succumbed to the temptation, then told them they and their descendants are forever cursed with fleshly mortality and hardship, and will need to follow a very specific way of life and constantly feel sorry about their sinful state if they want redemption in the afterlife. It all sounds like a cruel experiment by a mad scientist.

---------------

I realise that I spoke too broadly when I said that God "does nothing". A lot of people are spared suffering, so that is not true. I should have qualified it: "God allows some innocents to suffer."

When adults suffer, I can sometimes accept the religious explanation that God is testing or training their mental resolve. But a lot of the suffering we see seem so excessive, or happen at all the wrong times and places, that all they do is make a person more callous. (e.g. Children growing up in violent/abusive cultures, which do nothing but teach them to accept violence as a way of life.) Or what about animals or very young children who suffer? I can't see what there is to be tested about them.

---------------

And onto the final point :P

If, either in this life or the next, I see conclusive evidence that God exists, I'm perfectly happy to admit that I was wrong. I'm not an anti-God-ist (dunno what to call people who are vehemently opposed to the concept of God), I'm just not convinced at all that he is real.

I am rather opposed to the Biblical depiction of God though - if you happen to be interested, I explain my views in various arguments at http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/ Does_God_hate_fags .

In any case, something I hold onto is that while I'm not religious, I try to be a good person for the purely secular reason that I think it makes the world a better place. If a deity (or deities) does turn out to exist and is benevolent and merciful, I trust that this deity will judge me by how I behaved towards other people and how well I kept to my moral standards, and give me the chance to accept him as my lord once I have seen with my own eyes that he is real - not by whether or not I believed he existed back when I had insufficient evidence to hold this belief.

If this deity turns out to shut out people from a pleasant afterlife simply because they guessed the wrong answer in a test (Does God exist? [Y/N]), wellllllll... I'm not sure he deserves worship.

Side: There is no God.
1 point

How can a loving God allow, for example, a five-year-old child to be raped and murdered because it is supposedly so incredibly important to give humans the ability to rape and murder a child? Why does he grant this ability to anyone, if he is loving?

Let's go with the basis that God is all-loving and completely benevolent. If he is an absolute good he wishes to give his creation better understanding of "choice" then he would have to apply evil. Suffering would help humans understand what good and evil is. How can you know good without knowing evil? How can you understand happiness without understanding sadness? If God is absolutely good then a powerful evil would be incorporated (like Satan).

A mother who raises her son by allowing him to do anything he damn well pleases is not a good mother; she's a terrible one. But when God "raises" humanity the same way, he's doing a great job?

I don't understand. Christians are not allowed to do as they please. God has rules and regulations all over the bible. They also must follow common laws within the land. However that doesn't mean they can't break them.

A teacher who watches on passively while one student exercises his free will to kick and punch another student isn't a good teacher at all; she's a seriously negligent teacher. But when God looks upon the suffering of innocents and does nothing, he's doing a great job?

Actually the system of Karma, or equal exchange, or reaping what you sow plays the role in suffering. If one give suffering to another they will also receive suffering. In that case God has not done "nothing".

An inventor who builds a flawed invention shouldn't blame the invention for being flawed; he should blame himself for not making his invention good enough. But when God creates a flawed humanity then sends humans on a massive guilt trip about their flaws, he's doing a great job?

An inventor is the only person to blame. I'm sure God intended for humanity to go this way. If he is all knowing he knows things we do not and cannot. He probably would know what he is doing.

Side: Because of Man
1 point

If I tell you there is a body in you trunk you would probably not believe me, but you look. No body so you doubt more. You then look for body parts under things in the trunk. No e so you believe less. You look for DNA, blood, etc. None so the evidence tells you there is no body. It is the same with god. You look but no evidence at all except a bible written by humans. Consider, if we were created by god science has proven the earth is billions of years old. Life as been on the planet for hundreds of millions of years. So who put all the luring things before us here? Who put the dinosaurs here? Why are 98% of all past living creatures extinct? Would god create them to get rid of them? We are imperfect therefore we cannot make anything perfect. Will how does a perfect god make imperfection? Why is the planet so violent with earthquakes, tornado's, hurricanes, volcano's, etc? Why does eve animal have a predator? They do not sin. The biggest two questions of all for those who believe a god had to create everything because you cannot create something from nothing, who or what created God? If God was always there as some claim with no creator then why did it take forever to create earth and then us billions of years later after creating thousands of other living things first? Truth is after looking at it just like looking in the trunk there is no evidence at all. In closing, why also would a god create all this and just disappear?

Side: There is no God.
Genesis1vs1(31) Disputed
1 point

I will give you the same answer that I did above your post.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Why should God intervene in the choices of man's freewill? Do you not agree true love requires the choice to love or not?

Job 36:5-15

"God is mighty, but he doesn’t hate people. He’s mighty, and he knows exactly what he’s going to do.

6 He doesn’t keep alive those who are evil. Instead, he gives suffering people their rights.

7 He watches over those who do what is right. He puts them on thrones as if they were kings. He honors them forever.

8 But some people are held by chains. They are tied up with painful ropes.

9 God tells them what they’ve done. He tells them they’ve become proud and sinned against him.

10 He makes them listen when he corrects them. He commands them to turn away from the evil things they’ve done.

11 If they obey him and serve him, they’ll enjoy a long and happy life. Things will go well with them.

12 But if they don’t listen to him, they’ll be killed with swords. They’ll die because they didn’t want to know anything about him.

13 “Those whose hearts are ungodly are always angry. Even when God puts them in chains, they don’t cry out for help.

14 They die while they are still young. They die among the male prostitutes at the temples.

15 But God saves suffering people while they are suffering. He speaks to them while they are hurting."

Side: Because of Man
Bohemian(3861) Disputed
2 points

Why should God intervene in the choices of man's freewill?

I think this is a good question for you to answer. Do you not believe in a personal God?

Side: There is no God.
Debater2012 Disputed
1 point

You said scientists have proved earth is billions of years old. Okay, how do they know that for sure? Were these scientists alive billions of years ago? No, they were not so they really cannot PROVE anything. Also, if there is no God, where do we come from? You might say evolution. Okay, well, if you say evolution answer me this: If we evolved from monkeys/ primates, where did those primates come from? And if u say from another creature who came from something else, then where did THAT "something else" come from? The bible says that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen." We all as people hope for things to happen. Hope is just the rich man's word for faith. Then you talked about lack of evidence would make you believe less. So when you hope for something, you are having FAITH and believing it will happen. There is no EVIDENCE that what you are hoping for WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN. but does that make you believe less in what you are hoping for? When you can intelligently answer those questions, WITH PROOF, then you can convince me that there is no God. But until then, do not influence our fellow debarred with your ignorance of humans and the earth coming from nowhere. Tell your scientists friends to shove it. :)

Side: There is a God
imrigone(761) Disputed
3 points

"You said scientists have proved earth is billions of years old. Okay, how do they know that for sure? Were these scientists alive billions of years ago?"

And who was there when God made the universe? God/Jesus? How does one take eyewitness testimony from a being one cannot prove? Nobody who is here now was there then, so we make our conclusions based on evidence. And everything from radiometric dating to light speed measurements provide considerable evidence for a reality that is billions of years old. If God exists, that's when he started things. Either that, or he intentionally lied to us by allowing evidence that denies the truth to be everywhere.

"No, they were not so they really cannot PROVE anything."

Science works by weeding out hypothesis that don't fit the data. When we say "scientifically proven", we really mean that our hypothesis so far hasn't been disproved. Should further evidence be provided that disproves a hypothesis, we realize that we misunderstood something and try again using the new observations. That is how our knowledge base grows.

"Also, if there is no God, where do we come from? You might say evolution."

Although a lot of people do say that, they shouldn't if they actually know what they are talking about. Evolution describes the methods of change within already existing life. The origin of life is studied in the field of abiogenesis. There are many religious people in the world who accept evolution but not abiogenesis. To their credit, abiogenesis is much more speculative and has conflicting theories. But the main reason for that is that we don't really know what the range of conditions that existed on Earth was billions of years ago. We are reverse engineering an extremely complex chain of cause-and-effect that has been going on for billions years. It isn't easy. But people who are serious about what they do don't stop doing it just because it is hard.

"We all as people hope for things to happen. Hope is just the rich man's word for faith."

And faith is just an excuse to believe what you want to believe no matter how much evidence is against your belief. Faith can, however, play an important role. Humans are curious creatures. When the species was young and didn't know very much, faith helped us to focus on problems that were simpler and more immediate by giving of reasonable-sounding answers to the most difficult questions. It was an intellectual placeholder, effectively saying "here, let this satiate your curiosity for now. You can start asking the questions again when you are ready." But we are now in a phase when we are ready to ask those questions again. Faith apparently never fully satiated that curiosity.

"So when you hope for something, you are having FAITH and believing it will happen. There is no EVIDENCE that what you are hoping for WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN. but does that make you believe less in what you are hoping for?"

Once you realize that reality does not align with your hopes, then yes, you should stop believing in them. When the thing that you are hoping for is still possible (she likes me, I will get that job, my loved one will survive this illness), then hope feels really good. But when that thing doesn't happen, the hope can hurt you too. You recognize that the hope wasn't reality, and you eventually move on. As far as faith, wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. In fact faith can pull you away from truth if you ignore the evidence. Scientists may have hope that their hypothesis is true, but when the evidence proves that it is not, they shouldn't have faith that it is true anyway. Humanity can only get so far acting like that.

"Tell your scientists friends to shove it."

If our scientist friends had "shoved it", we wouldn't have the computers to make this debate. We wouldn't have harnessed electricity to power them. We wouldn't have cars and airplanes. We would have much smaller crop yields. We wouldn't have medicines and surgical procedures that cure ailments that ancient man did not understand. Science is your friend :)

Side: There is no God.
clearEn(207) Disputed
0 points

As for the age of the world, what are you basing it on? Salt water has been shown to mess up carbon-dating, and if the world really did undergo a world-wide flood, that's a lot of salt water. If you're using the strata layers, then those layers could have been formed quickly during a flood. This is actually evidenced in the fossilization of jellyfish, which have no skeletal structure and thus must be buried very quickly to fossilize.

I believe that nothing created God, but if God doesn't exist, what created the Big Bang? What came before? I don't know why God waited to create us. Maybe He didn't wait at all? I don't know. As for creating thousands of living things first, if that were true, than those animals would have died, right? Death is a result of sin, and thus, according to that theory, sin was on Earth before Eve ate the fruit.

I don't know, and won't pretend to. Maybe something like Brown's Hydroplate Theory happened. Maybe God set the Earth into motion, let it simmer a while, and then created us. I don't know.

But as for evidence, I have plenty. An example: While skiing at recklessly irresponsible speeds on the edge of a line of trees, I caught an edge. Not only was I off-balance, but heading into the trees. I probably wouldn't have survived had I actually hit a tree. But something I can only describe as an invisible but solid wall pushed me back onto two skis and away from the trees.

How can science explain that?

Side: Because of Man
1 point

God does exist He created the universe He created you and me and He died on the cross for are sins and rose on the 3rd day. Its your choice if you decide there is no God and when you die you will stand right in front of Jesus and He will say you should of listened to the person you were talking about and then you will notice there is a God but it will be too late to repent since you already died and you will go to hell because you never knew God and said He never existed and you will be screaming to get out and there is no way out of hell and you would wish that you knew God

Side: There is no God.

To be truthful, all I saw when I read the debate description was gibberish typed by person who is completely dependent on the idea of a god. Like seriously, using your pseudo-intellect to make a complicated post giving "proof" of your god's existence, isn't going to do anything for your dying cause.

Side: There is no God.
1 point

there is no god. he only exists in a select few who do worship and "praise" the lord Jesus fucking Christ ^.^ but then there are some people such as myself who reject that idea completely. "god" doesn't allow suffering people are doing it to themselves subconsciously. (I know that one can't exist without the other but still) god doesn't exist. not as a whole. (once again I hope you kind of get what I'm trying to say) but I fully agree with people on this side of the "argument"

Side: There is no God.

Free will doesnt exist if the creator of man is omniscient. Your argument collapses from there.

Side: There is no God.
0 points

So after reading all the arguments on this topic, my question for all of the people who believe there is no God is this: why is it easier for you all to not believe in Him than it is for you to believe? What events have Occured in your life or those around you that made you start to believe there is Bo God? Also, since you do not believe in God, do you believe in Satan?

Side: There is a God
zombee(1024) Disputed
2 points

So after reading all the arguments on this topic, my question for all of the people who believe there is no God is this: why is it easier for you all to not believe in Him than it is for you to believe?

It is very easy not to believe in something for which there is no evidence.

What events have Occured in your life or those around you that made you start to believe there is Bo God?

I began to think critically about the claims religion was making, rather than automatically accepting them.

Also, since you do not believe in God, do you believe in Satan?

No.

Side: There is no God.
0 points

Man lives in a universe of cause and effect and the consequences of certain causes are inescapable. Fire burns, water drowns, disease germs destroy. These facts have moral implications. Men live in a universe in which the consequences of what they do are inescapable, and therefore their responsibility for what they do is equally inescapable. Without this burden of 'natural law' man could do as he liked with impunity, and there would be no responsibility.

Right... until,

God made the universe this way because He is a moral God who makes men responsible beings with freewill to choose how they will act.

So god made the universe in a way that causes suffering, and you call this moral?

# Man's neglect and misuse of his own life has corrupted the stream of human life itself, and left evils which fall on succeeding generations. These, again as part of natural law, may manifest themselves as hereditary weaknesses and tendencies to disease. The very stuff of life may be affected as it is passed on from generation to generation.

Prove it.

The consequences of man's acts are not only directly physical. The social and political evils which they have created throughout history have left a gathering burden on the generations following. People today are caught in a net of the consequences of past history, and even when they try to right one evil, another is brought to bear: "The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22)."

So from what I gather, you tell us that god created a universe that allows suffering and evil, the consequences of this universe are suffering to the innocent and burdens upon the proceeding generations... and this is all created by god but you place the blame upon man?

GG :D

Simple arguments copied and pasted by a simple mind.

Side: There is no God.
Debater2012 Disputed
1 point

See, this is what I mean. People can interpret things in all different kinds of ways, so just because you "gather" something from what someone said, does NOT give you the right to classify them as "simple" minded. That's just rude and you seem to be taking pot shots at their thinking process instead of focusing on the argument here.

Side: Because of Man
aveskde(1935) Disputed
1 point

See, this is what I mean. People can interpret things in all different kinds of ways, so just because you "gather" something from what someone said, does NOT give you the right to classify them as "simple" minded. That's just rude and you seem to be taking pot shots at their thinking process instead of focusing on the argument here.

Copying an argument verbatim from another source and then finishing off with "GG :D" is simple-minded. When the argument source blames man for the laws of nature which are stated outright to be manufactured by a god, it is simple-minded.

Side: There is no God.
-1 points

because maybe the god, isn't a benevolent one, maybe whatever gender god is, thinks of us as a sort of ant farm?

Side: god cant be understood
4 points

Exactly. The only arguments to make here are:

God is an ass.

God doesnt care anymore.

God doesnt exist.

God doesnt care about our fate or suffering.

All of which are rather viable.

Side: There is no God.
2 points

who cares????? who would worship a being (god) that does nothing to help when help is needed??? santa claus never brings me the million dollars i ask for, either. get it??? if people need to worship someone or something, and it makes them feel better, let them. rational and thinking people usually suspect something's up, or just not right when they keep doing the same thing over and over and over, and get nothing in return. of course there are those who convince themselves that when something good happens it was because god had something to do with it, or when things go bad, they didn't pray enough.?!? whatever, IT MEANS NOTHING TO ME, so let them have a little empty happiness.

Side: There is no God.
1 point

im pretty sure there is a god, how did the big bang occur? But anyone who thinks god personally loves them and that the only thing he wants is your happiness is an ignorant, blissful ass, no point in trying to figure his/her motives, might as well just live your life...

Side: god cant be understood
-1 points

You know what there is a God he saved us from are sins He died on the cross for all of ure sins even He died for me and God does exist if He didnt then we would not be alive think about it! God created all of you and it wasnt ure parents that did it was God and your parnents did not make the world if they did then ure parents should be dead by now and i am a Christian and it also says in the Bible that He exists

Side: There is a God
loganwhite(51) Disputed
1 point

you know what, i think that they didn't teach you about run on sentences in school. If god didn't exist, we wouldn't even have this debate.

Side: god cant be understood
EvgRooster(29) Disputed
1 point

Love the double negative. My guess is you didn't go to school.

Side: There is no God.
1 point

I agree. Thank you fellow believer. May GOD bless you. :)

Side: There is no God.
clearEn(207) Disputed
1 point

Although I agree with you, you probably shouldn't do what you just did. For instance, spewing out your beliefs like vomit. I assume people won't be converted simply because you wrote that down.

Second, you should probably take a course on grammar, spelling, and punctuation. People will listen to you more if you put spaces and periods and commas. I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to help.

Side: Because of Man