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Why Were There Weird Laws in The Bible in the First Place?
There are laws in the bible (especially in the OT) that state that you aren't aloud to eat shrimp, crustaceans, octopus, squid, etc. And there are also unnecessary laws like not being aloud to shave and not being aloud to wear clothes comprised of multiple fabrics- and also there are actually laws that demand you must put children to death if they disrespect their parents.
When I've brought this up in debates, Christians seem to ignore the lunacy behind these laws, and say that they no longer apply to them because of Jesus.
Well I am not here to talk about how Jesus the scapegoat supposedly made them no longer to apply, I am here to talk about why would God make these laws in the first place.
Please add evidence to your arguments here- I don't want any crazy fanatics trolling on this debate with baseless arguments complete with their merry band of mindless up voters- or alternate accounts of that individual...
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
On Destroying Other People
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
On the Evil of Biblical Law
Ezekiel 20:25-26 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.
On Slavery & Subjugation of Women
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.
2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
Probably because people at the time were simple and easily manipulated; thus making it easier for the Church to brainwash them. Why they chose those laws... I don't know; maybe the dude that wrote it didn't like those things :P
The laws apply to Jews, not to Christians. That's why many Jews only eat "kosher" foods, whereas Christians can delight in all kinds.
We find them lunatic now, but that is after thousands of years of our morality becoming evolved, whereas the laws of the Old Testament may very well reflect a more primitive stage of our moral evolution, something which has remained because of the popularity of the Bible throughout the millennia.
'The reason why there was those laws is because those are for the Jews to follow.'
So because they were Jews, God required them not to wear poly/cotton blends?
You didn't even attempt to reason out a logical answer to the question. your answer gives no reason for god wanting them not to wear poly/cotton blends. the fact that they were jewish is not a reason, its an excuse. one that doesn't hold a teaspoon of water.
Here is a quote for the last few sentences in the debate's description:
When I've brought this up in debates, Christians seem to ignore the lunacy behind these laws, and say that they no longer apply to them because of Jesus.
Well I am not here to talk about how Jesus the scapegoat supposedly made them no longer to apply, I am here to talk about why would God make these laws in the first place.
I gave you a reason why which was actually no reason at all but here it is again.
Well Im christian but here is a simple answer to your question because we don't know why, the answer has to be because he wanted to make the laws like that. Heck you can find old laws around the world that make no sense, heck look at old laws in the US for certain states and you will be baffled at some of these laws and some of those crazy laws still exist to this day why were they laws in the 1st place I am sure they had their reason but who knows, idk they just were. So once again to answer your question its Because he wanted them if he doesn't say why in the bible then there is no way for us to know.
And just in case you try to use a excuse like this is not an answer then Ill show you this response i used earlier on someone else who said my answer was red herring.
This is not red herring, it is an example of laws that make no sense that really have no explanations as far as the common person is concerned but maybe to the one who created the law there was reason but to everyone else it just seems stupid since there was never really an explanation as to why the laws were made in the 1st place. And this is the reason why I brought up laws of current that make no sense, with how I am referring them, that comparison makes good logic to not be thrown off topic it is on topic.
Because you cannot answer a question for something for someone else when they never gave an explanation of why it was done in the 1st place and left no clues as to why they did what they did or said, that one could research and finally find an answer to.
And................................ when people try to answer or argue against these types of questions with non thought out responses then this is when you go from one unanswerable question to now a stupid "Q & A-Battle-Debate-Royal".
Do you agree that God is flawless, and completely perfect? If you don't then you are denying what the bible says- over and over again.
But if you agree that God is perfect and flawless, then you will agree that murdering a child, (or getting someone to do it for you, to ensure they die a painful death) for simply swearing at their parents, does not mean that they deserve it. If Jesus didn't come into the picture, christians would be murdering children all day long. But we know that christians wouldn't commit such acts, but you have to understand that these acts were commanded by your god.
What went through God's mind when he decided on this?
If you re-read my response carefully, thoughtfully and open up you can see that I say and that I clearly state that basically some of these laws make no sense which obviously shows that I do not understand the justice and or logic behind them but either way I am not sure what you just said has to do with my reply and your question now its seems as if your the one using alternative responses to beat around the bush of my response unless you are using it as an example but then again that to would just lead right back to my original response and I never said "I don't know" was an answer I said since we don't know the real reason because there was really no real explanation or clues left behind for us to figure out "why" then how can we know.. the only answer that can be given is "that he just wanted to"
I did read your previous response it was pretty easy to comprehend the 1st time, heck maybe you should go back and re-read your own original debate question, but anyways it was simple to see you were using alternative questions to use as an excuse to beat around the bush for my response as you are still doing.... like I said you are going off topic from your original debate by bringing up another question after realizing my response was sufficient enough to answer your original argument, if the purpose of this debate was to prove what God is and or is not maybe you should rephrase your "original" debate, but you see you have a pretty broad argument and I gave the best logical answer possible to "that question" that anybody who thought it through would have been able to answer and once again my response was to "that original question" not a whole new debate argument that you brought up after the fact, im talking about the one you put up in the first place not a second or third new question..... you know the one you put up in the Fiirrrsstt Pllaacceee!!!! "literally" and this right here certainly is not a difficult concept to grasp at all, emmmm but I expect you once more to give the reach around to try and tickle your fancy of debunking ones faith, which im not saying you cant cause you definitely can, but anyhow while doing this your still dismissing the simple fact that you are creating a different debate to counter any reasonable response put forth against the original debate, which im now starting to think was your plan in the first place---ooo lol oooops gosh dang there it goes again.
Sorry, but your writing is a little too slippery to read... the lack of full stops suffocated my mind and you seem do be wandering around or something...
Just dispute my "God is not Omnibenevolent for creating weird, immoral laws" argument... if you can...
Ya sure what an excuse, it was not hard to read just hard for you to accept the fact that I was able to respond to your debate with a logical answer. But I am sure you understood it pretty clear of what I was saying as you still keep going back to this omnibenevolent question you have with total disregard of my answer to your debate and like I said, why do you need to add a whole new dispute to your debate after the fact that I answered the debate.
I also like how you keep trying to steal what I say in reference to you by trying to be funny and use it against me, ya cause I am sure wandering around or something, well since you seem incapable of comprehending my last comments or it just shows you are unwilling to accept it, ill just make it quick and simple as I already have....
why do you need to bring up new questions without acknowledging my answer and make it seem like your new argument (you know the one that keeps mentioning omnibenevolent) was the only question to answer all along and just ignore your own original debate and my response to that debate.
Whats so wandering about that, looks like you are the one committing acts of Red Herring, you are the one making up new debates to your original debate to beat around the bush of my answer to the original debate, ya it sounds mind baffling but hey that's what you will get when you try to be slick and act like a second question can overlook your original debate and my answer, because clearly you are trying so hard to implement this new question into the scenario to overlook my response.
But like I said before if the purpose of this debate was to say what God is and or is not then create a new debate about it don't try to use it to hide your original debate after it was provided an sufficient answer, which it is clear now that you were not expecting to happen hence the reason for you to beat around the bush.
Your accusation of me using an excuse is an excuse itself to avoid disputing my actual argument.
"I don't know" is not an answer in the face of a God that is claimed to be omnibenevolent, omnisicent and omnipotent. Because we are able to show contradictions to disprove these claims that originated from the bible.
ummm hello, I did answer your actual argument so how can I be avoiding it when I clearly answered it, what are you not getting my goodness, your using this new question to overlook my logical answer with this new argument you have. And its not an accusation its a clear factual statement.
I mean if you forgot, your original argument was why did he create those laws in the 1st place. Not if he is or is not omnibenevolent, omnisicent and or omnipotent... you see if this was the purpose of your debate then you should have included it in there, not only bring it up when someone gives you a reasonable answer then act like the purpose of your debate was for you new question the hole time, because you were left shocked that the original argument was answered and was not expecting anyone to be able to answer it, without going against the rules you put forth on the argument.
And my goodness once more how many times do I have to say it, I never said "I don't know" was an answer how many times must I explain what my answer was to you before you stop overlooking my answer, which I am sure your doing intentionally.
Somebody please explain to this guy what he doesn't seem to get if that's even possible.
No your debate title is pretty clear its specifically states why did he create them. Not if they contradicted himself or if he was or was not something else. Like I said if you wanted it to be as that you should have re-phrased your question you cant just assume people to read your mind of what you really meant. Either way I still gave an answer to it which you still keep ignoring.
OO its not an answer then please tell me why did he create them... Im waiting...
Let me make it more clear for you with another example....
If someone walks up to a complete stranger they never seen before never had any problems with nothing and slaps them in the face and then just walks away. Then the slapper gets hit by a car and dies. How in the heck is anyone suppose to know why he smacked that person in the face out of no where for no reason. Now if he left clues behind in his house, work, or wherever intentionally or not, that could lead up to an explanation of why he slapped a random person then one could come to a reasonable answer as to why he did it. But if there were no clues left behind or he left no explanation of why he did it then what answer can anybody give for him slapping somebody........
Ill tell you since no one knows all they can really say is because he wanted to or some other logical answer along those lines.
But what you are trying to say is something like this, well he slapped the guy in the face so this means he is crazy, an idiot, he was an atheist, he was a mermaid, yes maybe so for all of them but that still does not answer why he did it in the 1st place all those responses do is just cast out personnel attacks some which may be correct and or understandable given that you don't know the real reason of why he did it in the 1st place.
Ill tell you since no one knows all they can really say is because he wanted to or some other logical answer along those lines.
So a person of perfect morality murdering a child doesn't sway you in any way- but instead makes you try to stretch it far out just to try and find what little rationality that is left?
And please, dispute this argument I posted earlier:
You need to understand that crazy laws from a human is okay, because they are human and can be fallible.
But laws (such as murdering a child for swearing) from God is not okay. Because he is Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscent and he's supposed to be a Perfect Being with no mental-illness.
But once again the reason for bringing up the laws of man was to give an example of laws that make no sense for man that have no explanation that we can relate to this day. And for the simple reason that they are man and we still do not know the reason for some laws made unless they left behind explanations or clues to find out why they are made then there is no way for us to know why they were ever made. So if we cant figure out why a human would make crazy laws with sense behind them to everyone else how in the heck do you expect us to know why laws were made by a God when he gave no explanation or clues to the reason.
Once again, there is no reason to why a Being of Infinite Morality would murder children for a minor act- because he simply doesn't exist- well in the Christian Bible of course.
Do I have to clarify this again?-
Here's what I'm basically saying:
God is supposed to be perfect and Omnibenevolent.
God murders children because they swore at their parents.
You are not getting it. This debate is not about how Jesus supposedly abolished these rules, this debate is about why did God make these rules in the first place.
Why did he put children to death if they swore at their parents?
Why did God hate, and prohibit the consumption of shrimp?
God forbade them to eat those animals because they are bottom feeders and thus unclean.
As far as prohibiting shaving, God thus loved his people so much that he did not want them to cut themselves while shaving. He did not want his people walking around with little pieces of toilet paper stuck to their faces. ;)
When humanity was starting out, it needed cohesion in order to succeed. By weeding out the malcontents, you evolve a cohesive community perfectly equipped to deal with the challenges of that time. Now that humanity has reached the current state, we no longer need to take out the malcontents. Kind of like the appendix. We needed it then but we don't need it now.
But what the fuck do I know. I'm an agnostic troll, bored on a Sunday morning, trying to pass as a real debater to see how that goes. ;)
I'll talk specifically about Leviticus 17-26. These are the so called "Holiness Codes", often thought to predate the rest of Leviticus. They are often thought to be derived from an earlier set of legal code. Their purpose is thought to be a reference to avoid sexual deviations, sexual transmitted diseases, and other physical ailments. Other weird laws in the Bible has to do with societal norms; which seem weird to us now due to the shift in society's expectations.
Although I'm not christian, I still believe that these laws were created because man needed something to believe and something to blame. So if they fail to adhere to any simple rules, there would be simple punishments and these would make up stuff like my mum scolding me today.
At those time there were no cleaning products or antibacterial whatnot. If they ate these animals they were likely to get countless diseases, is mainlu common sense than biblical ritual.
Well Im christian but here is a simple answer to your question because we don't know why the answer has to be because he wanted to make the laws like that. Heck you can find old laws around the world that make no sense, heck look at old laws in the US for certain states and you will be baffled at some of these laws and some of those crazy laws still exist to this day why were they laws in the 1st place I am sure they had their reason but who knows, idk they just were. So once again to answer your question its Because he wanted them if he doesn't say why in the bible then there is no way for us to know.
“Yahweh: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unplesant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
- Prof. Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
Heck you can find old laws around the world that make no sense, heck look at old laws in the US for certain states and you will be baffled at some of these laws and some of those crazy laws still exist to this day why were they laws in the 1st place I am sure they had their reason but who knows, idk they just were.
This is not red herring, it is an example of laws that make no sense that really have no explanations as far as the common person is concerned but maybe to the person who created the law there was reason but to everyone else it just seems stupid since there was never really explanation as to why the laws were made in the 1st place. And this is the reason why I brought up laws of current that make no sense, with how I am referring them that comparison makes good logic to not be thrown off topic it is on topic.
This is not red herring, it is an example of laws that make no sense that really have no explanations as far as the common person is concerned but maybe to the person who created the law there was reason
Unjustified assertion.
And this is the reason why I brought up laws of current that make no sense, with how I am referring them that comparison makes good logic to not be thrown off topic it is on topic.
No it doesn't. You haven't given any sort of proof for all your claims. Furthermore, if you are going to ground your argument on a law-maker, then the law-maker of the Bible is God. If you wish to use this argument, you need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that God exists.
Any proof for what claims its an example for goodness sakes AN EXAMPLE. Im not really sure where you are going with this since my thing with current human laws was an example but, ill just paste what I said to someone else since your basically on the same level as him.
As I have said I never said those laws were okay, Once again I clearly stated before that basically some of these laws make no sense which obviously shows that I do not understand the justice and or logic behind them.
But once again the reason for bringing up the laws of man was to give an example of laws that make no sense for man that have no explanation that we can relate to this day. And for the simple reason that they are man and we still do not know the reason for some laws made unless they left behind explanations or clues to find out why they are made then there is no way for us to know why they were ever made. So if we cant figure out why a human would make crazy laws with sense behind them to everyone else how in the heck do you expect us to know why laws were made by a God when he gave no explanation or clues to the reason.
OO its not an answer then please tell me why did he create them... Im waiting...
Let me make it more clear for you with another example....
If someone walks up to a complete stranger they never seen before never had any problems with nothing and slaps them in the face and then just walks away. Then the slapper gets hit by a car and dies. How in the heck is anyone suppose to know why he smacked that person in the face out of no where for no reason. Now if he left clues behind in his house, work, or wherever intentionally or not, that could lead up to an explanation of why he slapped a random person then one could come to a reasonable answer as to why he did it. But if there were no clues left behind or he left no explanation of why he did it then what answer can anybody give for him slapping somebody........
Ill tell you since no one knows all they can really say is because he wanted to or some other logical answer along those lines.
You need to understand that crazy laws from a human is okay, because they are human and can be fallible.
But laws (such as murdering a child for swearing) from God is not okay. Because he is Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscent and he's supposed to be a Perfect Being with no mental-illness.
As I have said I never said those laws were okay, Once again I clearly stated before that basically some of these laws make no sense which obviously shows that I do not understand the justice and or logic behind them.
But once again the reason for bringing up the laws of man was to give an example of laws that make no sense for man that have no explanation that we can relate to this day. And for the simple reason that they are man and we still do not know the reason for some laws made unless they left behind explanations or clues to find out why they are made then there is no way for us to know why they were ever made. So if we cant figure out why a human would make crazy laws with sense behind them to everyone else how in the heck do you expect us to know why laws were made by a God when he gave no explanation or clues to the reason.
The only answer that could be given is the one I have stated over and over and over again. But as I said after I gave that answer is when and only when you brought up this what God is and or is not to counter and overlook my logical answer to the original debate.
Heck even your argument of God being Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscent or not, in itself is not sufficient enough to answer your own original debate, because it doesn't give an answer to the question, just at best an opinion that is actually understandable.
If anything your case of him not being perfect is along the same lines of people giving the Jesus response for their answer to the debate because it still does not answer the question. What I gave you was the best logical answer that could possibly be given to that debate with the information given.
As I have said I never said those laws were okay, Once again I clearly stated before that basically some of these laws make no sense which obviously shows that I do not understand the justice and or logic behind them.
These laws don't just make no sense, they are also completely immoral.
But once again the reason for bringing up the laws of man was to give an example of laws that make no sense for man that have no explanation that we can relate to this day.
This reasoning does not work when there is a "perfect" being behind it.
So if we cant figure out why a human would make crazy laws with sense behind them to everyone else how in the heck do you expect us to know why laws were made by a God when he gave no explanation or clues to the reason.
Humans can be immoral and mentally ill, but God can't.
No "moral" and "perfect" God can make an immoral law. Only humans can.
Just to let you know once again I said i do not undertand the justice behind the laws so I dont know why you keep bringing up this point of them being immoral as yes this is the case im not disputing that though.
And that reasoning does work because the only reason why I brought up that example was to boil down to my answer of us not knowing why he created those laws in the 1st place.
And this is exactly the problem we are human and what is immoral to us may not be to a God that created. You simply cant use one things sense of logic against anothers where time doesn't even exist.
Here is an example that may be out of this world but its reasonable. Us humans currently create objects can we be considered as Gods to these devices. Quantum computing is on the verge of a major breakthrough which can help in high Artificial Intelligence. Humans are trying to build machines that have feelings and actually learn on there own without the need of human input and upkeep. Now the creator of this can be consider as its God and make laws for these new devices or whatever you would call it. Say they have some crazy laws that make no sense to the machines and possibly immoral in their own way to them but to the creators its not nothing even considered a big deal. This is just a way of showing how a God could think you may say well you are talking about machines well honestly all living species are nothing more than manipulation of energy so in theory its possible.
The simple answer is this: The God in the Christian Bible doesn't Exist. He was made up in the mind of humans. Humans are fallible, but have learnt morality over time. No omnibenevolent God would call for the instant death of a child for swearing at their parents. And no omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent God would suddenly become fallible and start learning from cruel it's actions when it's supposed to have already mastered a benevolence beyond bounds.
When humanity was starting out, it needed cohesion in order to succeed. By weeding out the malcontents, you evolve a cohesive community perfectly equipped to deal with the challenges of that time. Now that humanity has reached the current state, we no longer need to take out the malcontents. Kind of like the appendix. We needed it then but we don't need it now.
But what the fuck do I know. I'm an agnostic troll, bored on a Sunday morning, trying to pass as a real debater to see how that goes. ;)
Or maybe he does exist just not as one would think of him to exist, Im saying maybe just maybe God is a life form just one that's extraterrestrial. I do not think he was made up and why wouldn't a God call for what you just said if its something with intelligence then it can do what the heck it wants if capable of doing so.
Here's a quote of the first sentence from the argument you are disputing.
The simple answer is this: The God in the Christian Bible doesn't Exist.
I'm saying that the God in the Christian Bible doesn't exist because he commits unusual, atrocious actions and yet he is supposed to be omnibenevolent.
Of course, debates about an alternate God may be more viable, but the Christian God- No.
heck look at old laws in the US for certain states and you will be baffled at some of these laws and some of those crazy laws still exist to this day why were they laws in the 1st place
