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Why do Christians deny the contradictions with God?
There are some contradiction with the personality of God, or should I say characteristics. Things like total omniscience or absolute omnipotence or simple omnibenevolence. Why do Christians just deny the logic when clearly proven to be incorrect? Is it loyalty? Fear of Hell? I would love to know.
There are no contradictions with God. And, also, the Christian God is described in the Bible, which means that if God's characteristics had a contradiction, then it would be in the Bible, since His characteristics are in the Bible.
Alright. Good. Now, God purposely makes humans who will be doomed for destruction in order to further glorify himself correct? It was apart of God's plan for Lucifer to rebel and tempt Eve into eating the fruit correct? Also, it was God's plan for him to kill all creation besides Noah's family and his animals, correct? It was according to his will that Egypt would be plagued, correct? It was according to his will that he created Jesus with the foreknowledge of his death and persecution, correct?
No need to check. I know those verses. Let me continue. So God created everything according to his will. He created everything with intentional prupose. He created everything. Do you agree with this?
Good. That is all I wanted to know. Now that you are strictly alligned with that belief my attack may commence. God created knowledge, correct? God created the universe. Black holes, the higgs field, quantum teleportation, quantum physics, bosons, photons, particles, yes?
He always has had knowledge. As I said, there is a difference between human knowledge and godly knowledge. Godly knowledge is intrinsic and absolute and eternal: there is no creation of it. Human knowledge given to humans by God and created in them.
Even if that were true, it wouldn't negate that God is eternal, along with the universe, while the beings who can have knowledge are given it by God, which is created in them.
If the Cyclic Model is true God did not create anything. In fact his presense would not be required. God is simply a figment sent from your right temporal lobe. How will disprove this?
As I thought you were going to allude to. This reverts in the transcendental argument. If logic and knowledge and morality and the universe are all absolute and eternal, the only way to reconcile how they are even in existence is to say that they came from an eternal and absolute creator.
That is child's play. If the Cyclic Model is true matter is absolute and eternal and God simply is an evolutionary trait built to control anxiety front the right temporal lobe of your brain. Saying God made the universe is childish. Saying the universe created God is something worth studying.
It does not. If the Universe had no beginning or end then God cannot create it. As easy as that. God, as I said, is a figment created by your right temporal lobe.
If God did not create the universe, then as you said, He is not real and could not lie. That doesn't deny that the notion of the Christian God is contradictory, since it established within a possible world (that of the universe being eternal and God not being true) another possible world (that of God being imagined).
I'm not sure that you are understanding the argument. Yes, it would be possible that God did not create everything, which would be the universe, and that He lied about it; however, even at that, it wouldn't mean that He would be contradictory, only a liar. Moreover, that would not deny the possibility that He would not be real and that He is a figment of our imaginations. Within that possible world, we can establish that God would still not be contradictory in of Himself.
God cannot lie. God lied. Blatant contradiction and desruction of his omnibenevolence. You are not understand anything I am telling you. In our realm of existence scientists are beginning to see evidence for an eternal universe. You possibilities do not even parallel with what I am saying.
Correct, God is omnipotent and omniscient, but God does value free will. God allows us to make the choices we do. God is omnipotent and omnipresent because he can accomplish his will even with allowing us free will. Lucifer was created to reflect Gods glory, pretty much second to God. He decided to rebel (which God knew would happen). Adam and Eve were accountable for their actions, but God had a plan for Christ to redeem them.
List the verse. Show everybody the exact verse that utilizes those words. This is not for me, but for everybody. Show me where the words omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. 4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. 5 You hem me in--behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.
Psalm 139:7-12 (omnipresence)
7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," 12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.
Revelation 19:6 KJV (omnipotent)
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and the voice of many waters, and as the voice of may thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God Omnipotent [other versions use Almighty but its the same thing] reigneth.
Free will is from the perspective of the person who chooses the choices. God knows what happens, but the actions that are known are still made in free will. Knowledge by another being does not inhibit or restrict the choices of the being who's choosing.
Following your thoughts free will is reduced to an illusion, let me show you why:
I have to pick one of three cards. From my perspective I have the capacity to choose any of the three options. Whether I pick A, B or C is a matter of possibility.
But let's say that God knows that I will pick A. It seems that I have no choice but to pick A, because it's predetermined that I will pick A. I agree that from my perspective it certainly looks like I could pick B or C, but it's only an illusion. Because God knows that I will necesarilly pick A, then no matter how I feel about the matter I will necesarilly pick A. Whether I pick A, B or C is not a matter of possibility. Free will is an illusion; my decision is predetermined.
then no matter how I feel about the matter I will necesarilly pick A.
You pick a BECAUSE you feel that way. God knows what you will pick because he is omnipresent and omniscient, he knows what you will pick. Their is nothing obstructing you from picking the other options, you just don't because you don't want to because of free will.
1)But let's say that God knows that I will pick A.
2)because its predetermined I will pick A
3)It seems that I have no choice but to pick A
God having knowledge of an event is correct because God is omniscient therefore 1 is correct. God has knowledge of an event therefore he has predetermined using omniscience so therefore 2 is correct. The third assumption (3) is where the knowledge falters. Nowhere is their a limit on the choices. Their is no "illusion" of free will. Either you can or can't pick choices. You can pick, God just knows before hand what you will do.
Frankly speaking, if you are going to accept predeterminism while at the same time accepting free will then I don't think you understand what you are saying.
If an event is predetermined, then that event is necessary. For something to be a choice, then it's implicit that no course of action is necessary. Free will states that we have the capacity to choose, which means that no course of action is necessary. This is in direct conflict with predeterminism which says that all events are necessary. Predeterminism and free will therefore can't be reconciled.
A predetermined act is not required in the sense that inhibits free will. God predetermining something is not requiring something to happen. If I predict the future, I am stating fact, I am not inhibiting free will. The events I predict will happen, but the events will still occurs through choices that has been made.
Their are also biblical problems with I guess "strict" predeterminism. God has pretermined every action a person that a person will make. That is a biblical fact. However, Calvanism States that God has prechosen peoples actions. Included in these actions would include sin. By transitivity, God would have sinned.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the serpent who tempted Eve was Lucifer. It was a snake with arms and legs who could speak. Sounds ridiculous, but that is what it was... according to the Bible. God punished the serpent by taking away his arms and legs and forcing him to slither on his belly from then on. It's basically the Bible's origin story for snakes.
I am aware of that. However we can conclude that Satan was either using the serpent or appeared as a serpent or possessed the serpent. They don't speak. It is true that the bible never specifies who the serpent was, but from the description of Satan in Revelation I conclude that he was the serpent. I don't know for sure about it though, but I feel as if he truly was.
In an absolute applicable sense many Atheists fail to equate God with an actual contradiction and simply state nonsense. Yet to them they believe it is a contradiction. One must attack the logical characteristics of God himself or primarily his actions committed thus far. Many arguments I have seen equate God with nonsense. In order to completely quell a Christian believer an Atheists must attack the logical implications that the Bible gives and what follows God's intrinsic order. That way the logic is undeniable. I rarely see Atheists successfully pulling this off.
I indeed agree with you there. When many Atheists attempt to contradict God their ignorance and arrogance blinds them from actually realizing that what they are saying is simply nonsense.
Seeing a passage where God says "I dwell in Zion" and then another where God says "I dwelleth in Heaven" and noticing a glaring problem with the two is "stating nonsense?".
In order to completely quell a Christian believer an Atheists must attack the logical implications that the Bible gives and what follows God's intrinsic order
No we actually dont have to do anything seeing as Christians are the ones with the burden of proof and were the default position. We can just sit back and let you prove to us theres a god which never seems to happen.
And im also failing to see why equating god with nonsense isnt a valid argument. For example: God instead of just forgiving mankind, must send down his son who is also himself and impregnate a virgin who then gives birth to him/son who then goes around doing magic tricks until the Romans capture and kill him as a sacrifice to himself and then he rises from the dead 3 days later and flies back up to be with himself/dad for eternity.
Yeah that seems like a brilliant and simplistic plan with no other possible alternative. I think its totally a valid argument to look at this scenario and call bullshit on it 1) because it has absolutely no proof for it occuring and 2) because an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent creator of the whole universe should be smart enough to think up a better plan then this one.
It isnt a contradiction of any kind. But its a valid argument
Seeing a passage where God says "I dwell in Zion" and then another where God says "I dwelleth in Heaven" and noticing a glaring problem with the two is "stating nonsense?".
Idiotic if I may say. You are aware of literary techniques right? Otherwise you are just another inherently ignorant Atheist.
No we actually don't have to do anything seeing as Christians are the ones with the burden of proof and were the default position. We can just sit back and let you prove to us theres a god which never seems to happen.
Atheists, especially on sites, usually commence the attacks. That is why I say this.
And im also failing to see why equating god with nonsense isnt a valid argument. For example: God instead of just forgiving mankind, must send down his son who is also himself and impregnate a virgin who then gives birth to him/son who then goes around doing magic tricks until the Romans capture and kill him as a sacrifice to himself and then he rises from the dead 3 days later and flies back up to be with himself/dad for eternity.
Nonsense is nonsense. It is ignorant and often opinionated yo say such things. I am assuming you cannot even recognize a legitimate Christian argument. Nonsense, in all practicality, is nothing worth even heeding because it is nonsense. How can you not see this?
Yeah that seems like a brilliant and simplistic plan with no other possible alternative. I think its totally a valid argument to look at this scenario and call bullshit on it 1) because it has absolutely no proof for it occurring and 2) because an omnipotent omniscient omni benevolent creator of the whole universe should be smart enough to think up a better plan then this one.
It is not. That shows me your lack of actual, logical, intrinsical, knowledge of God. I don't even believe in God in a sense yet I know what is a logical argument and what is nonsense. Equating nonsense to something like a deity is childish. I don't believe he is all that. For all I know God could have lied. Does that mean he doesn't exist? No. He can be malevolent. Does that mean he doesn't exist? No.
It isn't a contradiction of any kind. But its a valid argument
Not at all. I wont even debate with you further if you cant understand such a simple concept.
Idiotic if I may say. You are aware of literary techniques right? Otherwise you are just another inherently ignorant Atheist.
I wasnt aware that errors and misinformation was a literary technique. Hm...maybe ill try that for an assignment someday.
Atheists, especially on sites, usually commence the attacks. That is why I say this.
And? That doesnt shift the burden of proof on us. You still have it
Nonsense is nonsense. It is ignorant and often opinionated yo say such things. I am assuming you cannot even recognize a legitimate Christian argument.
Christian arguments are nonsense
Nonsense, in all practicality, is nothing worth even heeding because it is nonsense. How can you not see this?
Reasons why im an atheist
It is not. That shows me your lack of actual, logical, intrinsical, knowledge of God
If there was actual logical intrinsical knowledge of god you wouldnt need faith
I don't even believe in God in a sense yet I know what is a logical argument and what is nonsense. Equating nonsense to something like a deity is childish. I don't believe he is all that. For all I know God could have lied. Does that mean he doesn't exist? No. He can be malevolent. Does that mean he doesn't exist? No
Okaaaaay... i never said god couldnt exist nor did i say he doesn't exist so i guess i agree
Not at all. I wont even debate with you further if you cant understand such a simple concept
You still have yet to make any real point. You have an "in depth logical intrinsical actual understanding of god" well whoopie do, it doesnt mean shit if he doesnt exist. Thats like saying ive analyzed the Cat in the Hat and i have in depth logical understanding of the characters and you know NOTHING. It doesnt mean shit, that cat isnt real. Demonstrate this god exists and ill take you seriously. But you seem to not believe in him either.....so....wtf?
For a lot of them it's because they think it should just be that way and anybody that tries to say that their way is wrong will be completely denied. Even when given evidence. Simply because it goes against their subjective moral beliefs.
It's apart of them. Trying to tell them it's not right is like taking a knife and trying to kill them. They are going to do everything in their power to resist.
For others its objective. They see the many other people who do it so they just follow along even if they don't understand why other people are doing it. They don't stop to ask questions because it's not in their nature to do so. They are not capable of seeing inconsistencies which is why they don't stop to ask any questions.
Well this my psychoanalysis soooo...if anyone knows anything about psychology....
Wandering away from reality and a little wishfull thinking maybe peppered with a bit of childhood indoctrination brings people to religion. Common sense coupled with some logic and peppered with science, reason, philosophy, and intelligence brings people to Atheism.
And ive long since stopped giving christians contradictions to address because im tired of hearing poor excuse after excuse for the blatant mistakes the bible makes.
I wasn't asking you, but fine. You are given answers and are sick if being given logical answers. Being an atheist and supposedly having logic as a characteristic of yourself, you just call bs and leave, never explaining the break in logic, just claiming that their was. At least in the debates we've had.
Do i have to? Did i ever say my goal was to make logical arguments? Sometimes i make logical arguments, sometimes i just chip away at stupidity. At the end of the day the burden of proof is still on you so i can really do whatever i want
No they didnt...spawning light before sun and man out of dirt and the earth and heaven is nowhere close to singularity creating an expanding universe and gravity pulling matter together into galaxies and eventually planets and then abiogenesis followed by biological evolution....just no
I am kind of an ignorant person. But legit. You sign up for a religion like Christianity, you just don't question god. You. You just don't do it. There's no further logic than that.
1 John 4:1 -- "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
People usually try to be consistent with what they believe, especially if they have defended their beliefs from criticism. A Christian has invested so much time and so many words to their faith in God. Their faith has become a deep rooted "part" of them, so naturally they want to protect it.
Things like total omniscience or absolute omnipotence or simple omnibenevolence
I don't think it is contradiction, rather, we just don't know everything about God. Personally I think he has the power to have complete control, but chooses not to use it all the time so that we can make our own choices.
It's literally sin. God is word of law, God is perfect, God is good all that jazz. Anything against him is blasphemy, which is said to be the one sin he does not forgive.
Actually only the Christians who want to deny God deny contradictions! If God wanted us to consider him/her perfect, they would have allowed us to grow in a sterile, safe and protected environment. But, this is not the case. So God must want us to go through these challenes.
