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Debate Score:37
Arguments:42
Total Votes:40
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 Why do they call it religious liberty? (36)

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WhatIsDaAuck(274) pic



Why do they call it religious liberty?

what is usually called "religious liberty" is what i would call freedom of association, or right to discriminate .because what does religion have to do with it ?either discrimination is legal in a particular context or its not .

if you believe as i do, that a photographer has the right to turn down a job they dont want, then why does the reason matter ?too far away, too long an event, your too ugly, gay, not christian, whatever .i dont think your religion gives you any rights here that you didnt already have .

i believe that if a baker has a cake for sale then they have to sell it to whoever wants to buy it .but if someone wants them to decorate it as a gay wedding cake, they can say no, thats not a product they offer .again, why does religioun matter ?maybe you refuse because of your religion, maybe you just dont like gay people, maybe you dont feel like changing the way you do things .

calling it "religious liberty" seems weird because no one is trying to stop you from practicing your religion .you can be a christian who disapproves of gay marriage .you are free to believe whatever you want to believe .but you can do that while complying with the law .your religion is never an excuse to break the law .and if religion is an excuse, then so is personal preference .
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1 point

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What does the 1st Amendment say !

yes the 1st ammendment protects religious liberty .religious liberty has always been safe and has nothing to do with discrimination .

outlaw60(15368) Clarified
1 point

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What point are you trying to make ? Is it about Religious Liberty or Discrimination ?

1 point

Equality enters the equation here.

To refuse a service to anyone on the grounds of their sexual orientation, their religious persuasion or denying them expression of their political viewpoint is blatantly discriminatory and considered a crime in most western nations.

Frustrating contradictions occur when, as you have mentioned, an establishment refuses to decorate a cake celebrating a gay marriage on the grounds that such an embellishment is contrary to the teachings of their particular religion.

For instance, if a Christian wishes to follow the scriptures of their religion and refuses to contribute towards the glorification of a same sex union on grounds that such an act would be contrary to their religion, and then be prosecuted for following his/her faith could only be construed as institutionalised religious persecution.

What would happen if a Muslim bakery refused to provide a cake showing a pro Jewish slogan, or vice versa?

Have any of these scenarios ever occurred and challenged in a court of law?

I don't know, do you?

1 point

You will send the Progressives into spasms when you mention a Muslim bakery.

1 point

Yes they have been challenged in court and they upheld religion right to legally discriminate...

Most famous was Hobby Lobby. They have the right to pick and choose what medical treatments tehre employees can get.

1 point

It was pretty hard for me to read your description, so I'll take that English isn't your native language.

Here's the shick.

Religion is sacred to some people... literally. If a baker owns their own place, then they can decide to sell whatever they want to whomever they want. If they don't want you to buy their product, they have the legal right to turn you down within reason. For instance, I'm scared of heights. But my career choice makes me have to use ladders to reach where I need to be to get the job done. So, I take a deep breath and climb up the ladder. Over the years, I have lost my fear of heights to the point where it doesn't affect me as much anymore. However, lets say I didn't climb the ladder and told my boss that I'm afraid of heights. He has the legal right to fire me due to my inability to complete the job.

A baker can use the same guidelines as mentioned above. Homosexuality is against his religion. He can claim to the gay couple that his religion will not permit him to bake a cake for them and they have to find someone else.

"Religion is sacred to some people... literally."

fine .

"If a baker owns their own place, then they can decide to sell whatever they want to whomever they want. "

unless that breaks the law .

"If they don't want you to buy their product, they have the legal right to turn you down within reason. "

within reason = not breaking the law .

"For instance, I'm scared of heights. But my career choice makes me have to use ladders to reach where I need to be to get the job done. So, I take a deep breath and climb up the ladder. "

by your logic ,shouldn't they fire you for that ?

"Over the years, I have lost my fear of heights to the point where it doesn't affect me as much anymore. "

good job .

"However, lets say I didn't climb the ladder and told my boss that I'm afraid of heights. He has the legal right to fire me due to my inability to complete the job."

ok ,you answered that question .yes, he can fire you ,if it is not illegal to do so .

"A baker can use the same guidelines as mentioned above. "

refuse customers when legal ,yes .

"Homosexuality is against his religion. "

not the customers problem .

"He can claim to the gay couple that his religion will not permit him to bake a cake for them and they have to find someone else."

his religion is not an excuse to break the law .suck it up and obey the law .i know of some people whose religion permitted them to fly planes into the world trade center .not an excuse !

DevinSeay(1120) Disputed
1 point

"unless that breaks the law."

It doesn't. A owner of a business can turn down whom he or she wishes to serve.

"by your logic, shouldn't they fire you for that"

They very well could have. If I refuse to do a part of my job based on a phobia, then they have a legal right to fire me for it. If you talk to some construction workers, you'll find out that many of them still get an adrenaline rush on ladders. But yet they do their job because they can control their fear.

"not the customers problem"

Grant it, it isn't. Not unless he wants a cake baked by a religious baker. Then it becomes a problem.

"his religion is not an excuse to break the law .suck it up and obey the law .i know of some people whose religion permitted them to fly planes into the world trade center .not an excuse !"

He isn't breaking the law. He is refusing to bake a cake for a homosexual couple based on religious beliefs in which he religion can condemn him. Besides, those people that you speak of, their religion doesn't permit them to fly anything into a tower full of innocent people, they themselves chose that.

I think you need to spend some time researching.

1 point

It's not that your argument is itself wrong. It's not. If people truly are free then they are free to be ugly and mean, too, regardless of reason.

It's that the US society we choose to live in is truly based on civil rights. Allowing people to openly discriminate would mean allowing segregation, quid pro quo abuses of power, sex predation in the work place, and on and on. And that's not the US I want to live in. Frankly I don't give a rat's @ss if you feel your religious right to be a d!ck outweighs everything else. Our ability to function as a cohesive society with a full complement of civil rights outweighs your singular need to hate someone.

0 points

your too ugly, gay, not christian, whatever .

This type of personal preference is illegal. You have to package into something that is protected (religion) in order to get the illegal discrimination.

outlaw60(15368) Disputed
1 point

"your too ugly, gay, not christian, whatever ." SouthPark what does that have to do with Religious Liberty ?

Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

Nothing. Why do you think it does?

WhatIsDaAuck(274) Clarified
1 point

but surely a freelance photographer can choose whatever jobs they want ,right ?

1 point

Yes. A freelance photographer takes a picture of something and tries to sell it.

Amarel(5669) Clarified
1 point

Ugliness is not a protected class. .

Monaclu(8) Disputed
1 point

None of these classes should be protected. If a neo-nazi baker wants to refuse to bake a cake for a black person, it should be legal. Also, we should boycott their business and make sure they fail. The government has no business in my personal business. To suggest that the government somehow has the right to force you to do something you don't want to do, is insane.

Let's say I am a baker. Let's say I'm also Christian. A gay couple comes in and asks me to cater their gay wedding. I say "Oh, I'm really sorry, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. I can however give you a list of some other bakeries that would do it for you." Does the government then have a right to send men with guns into my home and put me in cuffs in front of my kids?

Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

refuse to bake a cake for a black person, it should be legal

We know what that is like. It was not the best part of American history.

To suggest that the government somehow has the right to force you to do something you don't want to do, is insane.

No, to suggest that in a capitalist society we would ever consider that people not doing their job is smart is insane.

I say "Oh, I'm really sorry, but I don't feel comfortable doing that.

You aren't a Christian then. This is not a doctrine of Christianity. This is a doctrine of Republicans.

Does the government then have a right to send men with guns into my home and put me in cuffs in front of my kids?

You have made it very clear that that is the only way you will follow the law. The government had the right to uphold the law. If you break the law you risk your kids seeing you get arrested.