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Why do you believe what you do?
Atheists, why do you trust the scientific method and your observations? Scientists have lied about false or distorted evidence in the past.
Not to mention, everything you see is interpreted by your brain, which is quite susceptible to delusion and bias.
Why do you believe what you do?
Theists, why do you trust your holy books and churches? Religious leaders have lied and taken advantage of people in the past.
Not to mention, there is a completely lack of evidence for any god. There have been hundreds of gods invented by humans throughout time. Why is yours right?
The fact that there are no points pointing to the existence of those gods.
Do you believe in the tooth fairy because she might exist? Because some people used to believe in her? Some still do?
No, unless my parents are nearby, I will not ever get money for leaving teeth under my pillow, regardless of whether I believe or not.
If I had never heard of the tooth fairy, but accidentally left some teeth under my pillow after a drunken brawl, I would not wake up to find money.
If I had heard of the tooth fairy, and needed some extra money, if I extracted my own teeth and put them under my pillow, believing with all my heart that she'd leave me $5000 cash, I would wake up quite disappointed.
So no, it is not a good idea to believe things just because the idea of them exists. Better to believe things for the opposite reason, believe them because they exist. Observation. Science.
The fact that there are no points pointing to the existence of those gods.
Absence of evidence etc. Please don't mention Russel's teapot; evidence is not exclusively physical.
Do you believe in the tooth fairy because she might exist? Because some people used to believe in her? Some still do?
No, no and no, but that's not why I refuse to make a judgment on the existence of a God either. And there's quite a bit of distance between the hypothetical properties of a tooth fairy and the hypothetical properties of an omnipotent entity.
tooth fairy
tooth fairy
tooth fairy
Sounds like somebody's got a bone to pick.
So no, it is not a good idea to believe things just because the idea of them exists.
Why do you assume that's the only reason anyone believes in God?
Better to believe things for the opposite reason, believe them because they exist.
I don't think that's how opposites work. Believing only in things with physical manifestation might lead to trouble in spheres of abstract thinking. Like geometry.
No, there is not a distance between a tooth fairy and an omnipotent entity.
Don't make differences that aren't there. You like to elevate your religion to the status of godhood, as if it was some infallible belief beyond mankind's understanding.
Yet, is it? It is extremely simple. Religion and god offers simple explanations, it gives moral rules and it provides control, and a feeling of safety.
It is not complex or beyond understanding. Your god is not above understanding.
Please take a look at that video. With the "Atheists:" in the title, I thought it would be some antagonist, anti-religion video filled with propaganda that although I agree with, could find sketchy or inaccurate, but it is extremely accurate. It appears to be exactly what happened based on all that I've ever known or heard of history.
Also, geometry can be understood and proven with numbers and mathematics. Besides that occultist numerology bible stuff, there is nothing that provides a clear proof or understanding of a god.
No, there is not a distance between a tooth fairy and an omnipotent entity.
What's your reasoning for this conjecture?
your religion
Your god
Curb your presumptions. I'm not religious (or "spiritual," if it makes any difference [it doesn't]).
Besides that occultist numerology bible stuff, there is nothing that provides a clear proof or understanding of a god.
You can't have much background in theology or philosophy if you honestly think that.
I'll watch the video and the rest of the series 'cause it seems interesting, but it's not really relevant to anything I've said as none of my defenses in this thread are of the Judeo-Christian God specifically.
No, but that is the most mainstream religion, and referring to "your god" is a handy way to target a person who is monotheistic, as nearly all people in the west are, except small pagan groups. The Middle-East is also almost completely monotheistic, except Hinduism, which I do not think anyone in this thread believes in.
As far as your first statement, my reasoning is that both are invented by people as a myth. Besides the fact that people call gods miraculous and attribute them with powers beyond reality, with powerful magic and influence over reality that no other being can have, they are really no different from the tooth fairy. Upon rereading that, I realize that also describes the tooth fairy.
But gods are soaked in history, right? No, history makes just as much sense assuming those gods didn't exist, and the people only believed in them. In fact, it makes more sense that they don't exist. That explains EVERYTHING in reality a lot better than gods, I think.
my reasoning is that both are invented by people as a myth
That isn't reasoning, that's more conjecture. I'll accept it, but why does the fact that God was invented by people lend to the conclusion that there's no difference between it and other various supernatural concoctions? A single analogy is certainly a necessary condition for identity, but not a sufficient one.
Besides the fact that people call gods miraculous and attribute them with powers beyond reality, with powerful magic and influence over reality that no other being can have, they are really no different from the tooth fairy.
Yet within this class of supernatural attributes, only some are applied to the tooth fairy while others are reserved for a monotheistic god. Are Oberon and Titania said to act outside of causality itself? Does a unicorn send you to Hell? Did Santa create the universe? Not all supernatural forces, even if entirely imaginary, are identical. This is important to acknowledge, even if you can't resist belittling theists otherwise. Comparing God to the tooth fairy just isn't metaphysically accurate.
But gods are soaked in history, right? No, history makes just as much sense assuming those gods didn't exist, and the people only believed in them. In fact, it makes more sense that they don't exist. That explains EVERYTHING in reality a lot better than gods, I think.
Because you keep refusing to make it known I'll assume your reasoning here is Occam-related (correct me if I'm wrong). Remember before invoking the Razor that it's closer-related to the ease with which human minds manage systems without seemingly unnecessary facets than to irrefutable principles of logic.
I still see no difference between one supernatural entity and another.
Just because you give one the job of creating the universe or life doesn't make it real.
I could give an entity the important job of fanning stars in the past to produce all the elements that exist now so that life can exist.
I could give an entity the important job of attaching a rope to the edge of the universe, several of them on each edge, and running, stretching the universe as we observe.
Or the most important job of invisibly pulling down every object so they don't float away from the Earth.
It doesn't matter how important their job is. If it doesn't exist, if there's another cause, then I'll go with that one when it's able to be explained by science.
You know that nearly all atheists are agnostic atheists, right? If you could PROVE a god, I would believe you.
You cannot. I don't want to deal with God hypotheticals. If God and religion were a system that only helped people and nothing else, I wouldn't mind, but the bloody history of religion makes me feel, maybe we can FORGET about supernatural things, and try to not assume that magic created the universe.
Instead, I'm going to keep researching evolution and self replicating chemicals, or microwave background radiation that seems to indicate expansion of the universe, as if it was once a lot smaller.
I won't make assumptions, I'll just look at the evidence and judge from that.
I won't say "It MUST be a natural explanation! There's NO WAY AT ALL that a god did it!"
Instead, I will simply observe the utter lack of any sort of supernatural power, except in the myths that humans wrote throughout history, and notice that everywhere else in the universe, I am seeing physics and chemistry that consistently work to explain the universe, and the fact that so many things in the past, once attributed to a god, are now explained by science.
Or do you still think diseases are caused by evil demons?
Well, here's how i see it. I see no proof in there being any sort of God or divine being of any sort, no matter what religion. Even if there were, and i was told " Convert, or go to hell" I am afraid i wouldn't I am sorry but if there truly were a God, why isn't this world a happy place. It is filled to the brink with pain, misery suffering, untold millions of children every year asking "why." Well, if there were a God, from the descriptions i have heard, he/she would have done something about it by now. And so far, things have only gotten worse.
Just 500 years ago you had no electricity, no toilets that you poop into, then POOF no more smelly mess, no light bulbs, you needed to light a candle, which doesn't give off much light, and books and information? Only in libraries or churches.
Most books were religious in nature, or fiction, because science was very rare, and often contradicted the Bible.
And of course, no reading. You need to be educated if you wanted to know how to read.
The common man had no idea of books or education. He grew food or made metal objects in a smithy or another simple trade.
There was no education, no microwave food and no computers. It's a LOT easier today.
Also, back then if you argued against religion, you got burned to death by the people who believed in it. Or beheaded. Depends which religious people you offend, I suppose. But to say things like that today?
Unfortunately, whereas then you didn't think about how computers would be so much faster than horse back, and how flushing lavatories would be easier. No you didn't think about that, and you were happy the way you were. Also, you could simply go in to the woods (not the kings!) And simply catch your self a dear. You needn't worry about what other people might think of you because of the way you dress or what you eat e.t.c. We are all slaves to modern democracy. If one person does something, then everyone else has to. Things like Fashion e.t.c. We are currently living in some pre- apocalyptic version of'1984 ( i assume judging your by your other comments you have read the book.) Sooner or later we will all be wearing the exact same things, all speak the exact same, all eat the same, look the same. Places like Brazil, where farmers just have small farms keep some livestock, pop in to the village to see friends and buy a few essentials, and go back home, is a nice peaceful way to live. Not all cramped together in grey dreary sky scrapers.
Yes, I do agree. One culture is no good, but with a more liberal society, as in the actual meaning of liberal, not those in-debt angry college liberals, but an actual liberal society would support individualism a lot better than a highly religious or authoritarian society, which would still allow one who chooses to do what he wants.
As life becomes easier, do you think you will still need a job?
When robots replace you not just in manufacturing, but in food service, building houses, power management and other maintenance services, (Highly advanced robots, I mean. 20-30 years.) then what? Now you have time to write music, to draw or paint, to learn to program, to study all you want, to do what you want without stress.
If that society fails? Excellent. Either we are replaced by thinking, self aware robots, an odd form of "evolution", or we are wiped out due to our own laziness.
Or perhaps the society fails but we survive anyways. Who knows.
Anyways, you can choose your fashion and your friends.
I don't waste my time with false friends. If a person doesn't like me for me, then that's their problem.
Certainly not. However, this is not about what two people think. What i have said is based on everything i can see around me. I don't want life to be easier. I don't want to be able to sit down the day i'm born and stay there, whilst robots do everything for me. I don't want to just be able to take a small pill and not need to eat for another month. That's the joy of life. getting stuck in. All the fun things in life are based on events, doing things. You make idleness and laziness a top priority in mankinds lives, there would be no point in living. Basically, what it all boils down to. Is. Life is for living. Doing things, feeling things (no innuendo intended!) And feeling emotions. We are gradually loosing all this as we become more technologically advanced. If you have seen WallE, read the hunger games/1984, i am sure one of these outcomes is what we are heading for. Non of which are good. If we were living in our own little villages near the woods, we learned to shoot arrows, catch wild boar and generally get on with each other, then great! But that's not going to happen! Besides, this is just MY opinion...
But it's impossible to go back. Wishing to go back to those more simple times, without the teenage depression coming from being inside all day, being forced to study tests that are important because they are called important, where you have to work in an office rather than hunting or learning a skill.
But you can't go back. Wishing to go back isn't possible.
This world will likely become very similar to 1984. If we can't go back, then I want people to learn and understand science.
The smarter we are, the less people in power will take advantage over us.
If you use a computer, but don't understand how it works, then in the next generation, those children?
Computer glasses with enhanced vision? How can you explain that if you already have religions and a lack of science knowledge?
They'll think it's literally magic or something. They'll be raised stupid and ignorant.
We can't stop it, we can't go back in time. We can only try to enter gracefully into a future where we can be happy.
Yes i suppose. Only unless mankind goes and does something else stupid like invent the P-Bomb and whips out half the planet, will then realize that they have been foolish. But as you say this will probably not happen. I am sure there will be some large religious war that will decrease the population vastly, or that mankind will just over populate until someone decides to launch some nukes to get rid of some. Ultimetly, whatever we do, no matter what happens, mankind will come to an end. Ever fear death, what happens whilst im gone. I wont be able to know. Oh well, the sun will expand, then fall in on its self. The universe will go on for another googleplex of billions of years, without ever remembering that on the 1st of July, 2012, two guys had some lonely conversation about what is to be. I can only imagine, as i fondly do, traveling back around 6,000bc before farming or agriculture. Going there, joining some clan, and living the rest of my life, and dying some natural happy way with those who love me. I think of this often.
^There, you have now taken a very short, small glance as to the consistent goings on in my head! I hope you enjoyed! I could however go on to my other eccentricity's, or my far deeper thoughts, but i think i have said enough!
I'm just saying: agreed. If there actually is a God, and it is the one Christianity preaches, well, I want nothing to do with him, and I think he is a manipulative being. "Born with sin"? That is so offensive, I don't know where to start! I was born with the burden of all humanities mistakes before even having the chance to get a parking ticket, it's like being put in jail as an infant because your father was a criminal! And the only way to save my soul is to believe in a being far above who only reveals himself when it suits him, often on barren hilltops!
If he doesen't get my scepticism, and wants to punish me for my own thoughts, which he in fact (presumeably) made possible, then I say: Dude, thanks for life and all, but leave me alone, and if you want to burn me in hell when I die, fine. I'll bring some marshmallows with me.
"...If there truly were a God, why isn't this world a happy place." You postulate that if there were a God, then bad things would not happen. Then you are suggesting that God is a force that causes only good things to happen. Well, as a Christian, I believe that man operates according to his own free will. However, man's free will operates under God's will, which governs everything. God's will exists in three parts: 1) God's permissive will, which allows man to act out his free will; 2) God's perfect will, which is how God intends for man to live (his plan or outline for how man should live; 3) God's direct will, in which God directly governs events and outcomes in the physical realm.
I am an Atheist of Logic. I dismiss the belief in (a) God, because the idea of God itself was created by men to explain natural phenomena. This explains why polytheism dominated the ancient world, because there were so many things they did not understand. For example, there were harvest Gods, Thunder Gods, and Water Gods. They existed to explain why there were good and bad harvests, what Thunder really was and why it occurred, and also why there was water in the sky and on earth. As we learned more and more about our surroundings we believed in less and less Gods, because we no longer needed the old ones to explain the things we had come to know about. The idea of a monotheistic God came later in history, because it was then that we knew enough about the world around us to start concerning ourselves with human matters, like ethics and good and evil. This is why the monotheistic Gods of todays religions have rules of living, and proverbs of human nature. Our Gods got more philosophical as we did, because the Gods were invented to explain the questions that people of the certain times asked themselves. This is why there are few if any polytheistic people, because polytheism is based on answering questions of nature and we as an "advanced" species have come to answer those questions. Most people are monotheistic, because philosophical questions are still valid to us and those Gods concern their followers with Good and Evil and other human experiences. In short, we came to explain our physical reality, but we still have yet to answer our spiritual/actual reality, this is the only reason why the idea of God is still valid to some people. God is a way to explain; it is only a matter of time until we do not need it as an ideological crutch.
I don't have any reason to believe in more than what I see. I wish there were more to the universe than there is, yet I will not turn to the false shoulder of religion to cry on.
Prove that the supernatural exist, and get a million bucks.
Yes, as always, I will say "If you feel you are too pure to accept or test the supernatural, then do it anyways and donate the money to build a better world."
There is no reason a person would not want a million dollars. A pure, unselfish person would give it away, someone else might keep it and live a good life.
The only reason you wouldn't be able to get that money is if you didn't actually have any powers.
That's why me and ChuckHades do not believe beyond what we see.
Because we can't see, because even if it did exist, I cannot sense it, so to assume it exists is lunacy.
Why stop at god? Why not claim the existence of a legion of unicorns, trained to murder all Christians on April 13, 2013.
If no one can see it or sense it no matter what, then my faith can justify that.
What if my faith was a more common faith, such as a militant muslim's "All heathens must die."?
Is that alright? That's what their God and their holy book says.
What about the Christian god? Is that why you hate gays?
If I believed in things I didn't see, then what am I believing in?
I have nothing to say except thousands of years ago, a bunch of confused people made up stories to explain things they didn't understand in order to enforce rules and gain control.
What other explanation is there? There is nothing you can prove or back up.
God is not evident in nature, so there is no way to consider a Gods existence only by observing the Earths natural phenomena. With this said, it would have to be excogitated by man with no basis, because nature was the only basis for logical thought in the ancient world. "I don't have any reason to believe in more than I see" is a valid statement, because the only reason a person would believe in more than what they see is if they were told to by another person. Nobody naturally contemplates God because it is a human idea.
Many aspects of science may have been disproven in the past, but that is not to say that every aspect of science is wrong. I think that most areas of science, and what we know about them, is right.
Actually it does require trust. Science is not some dogma, it's a constantly advancing and self-correcting process. While there is very good reason to be sure of the truth-value of the theorems and hypotheses we have now - there is no guarantee that our understanding is actually correct.
Scientific paradigm shifts happen and when they do, they completely revolutionize their respective scientific field and the theories we previously held on to are either discarded or re-analyzed to fit the new paradigm.
I would suggest you read Kuhn's book - The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Basically, while we have a very good reason to consider our current scientific knowledge as true and factual - we can't discount the possibility that our understanding is actually incorrect based on false or partly false theories.
Kuhn says that if we encounter an anomaly that goes against all scientific knowledge and which cannot be explained in the framework of the current scientific understanding - then we have a paradigm shift i.e we see that our current theorems and hypotheses are inadequate and they require extensive over-evaluation. In extreme cases we may even discard these faulty theorems and begin all over with a new theorem that can explain what we currenty know + the anomaly as well.
So yeah, while there's a good probability that it's true, we can never truly be certain. It does require trust. To some degree.
Yes, he means he doesn't trust it, as in, I would NEVER trust gravity.
In order to KNOW that it works, I will drop a pencil.
Because it goes down, it's no longer trust, it's knowledge.
Understanding science doesn't mean blindly trusting that it works.
It's about testing it to learn why and how it exists.
In daily life, you don't need to do science, but if you want to learn things, lots of things, then yes, you should experiment and measure things. Most things can be measured. That allows not for trust, but for looking at the results and knowing how it is.
I mean, it's just trust vs belief vs knowledge, right?
Theists, why do you trust your holy books and churches? Religious leaders have lied and taken advantage of people in the past.
Not to mention, there is a completely lack of evidence for any god. There have been hundreds of gods invented by humans throughout time. Why is yours right?
Why do you believe what you do?
I trust the holy book, because it earned my trust. I've learned a lot from it. And if you guys try to read it, you will know that there isn't just silly fairy tale stuff in it. A lot of wise quotes we know, are from the bible.
The bible is a very good book, and even if you don't believe it, fairy tales can still be entertaining to read ;) So I will recommend you to read it :)
Even tho there is a lack of evidence that there is a God, there is also a lack of evidence proving that there isn't a God. So that tells us nothing.
I believe what I do, because I felt God.
Even tho atheists want evidence and explanations and blablabla, I can only say that the fact that I've spoken to God, and he responded, that is enough evidence for me.
No, in a debate, personal experiences don't hold very much water.
Also, please try to understand logic, "there is also a lack of evidence proving that there isn't a God."
That statement does not prove a god, and on a debate website, you cannot try to make someone else prove a negative.
Also, your Bible is extremely violent and hateful. You are aware that it mentions putting people to death, right?
Not for things like stealing or murder, but just things like witchcraft or being gay.
If the Bible was Holy, not just any book, but a book that you could really put your faith in to get you through life, then why does it contain rules like that?
I'm not going to look up every single violent Bible passage for you. If you don't know what I'm talking about, despite being a Christian, then I am not going to go on.
How can you still believe in such a violent and oppressive religion?
Also, your Bible is extremely violent and hateful. You are aware that it mentions putting people to death, right? Not for things like stealing or murder, but just things like witchcraft or being gay. If the Bible was Holy, not just any book, but a book that you could really put your faith in to get you through life, then why does it contain rules like that? I'm not going to look up every single violent Bible passage for you. If you don't know what I'm talking about, despite being a Christian, then I am not going to go on.
How can you still believe in such a violent and oppressive religion?
I believe in God, not the bible. There is a big difference.
The bible contains a lot of horrible stuff, but not all of it came from God. There were hundreds of people who participated in writing the bible.
So the gay thing, I believe it came from some of the people who wrote the bible.
I know that the flood was God, but I believe God did horrible stuff, but I also believe that those people who died were going to Heaven, and not to hell.
I don't live my life like the bible tells me to. I know that it is not always right. The bible tells people to stone naughty children and stuff like that. Of course I don't believe that is the right thing to do.
But I also think, that a lot of the terrible stories in the bible are only stories. There are not only laws you know, not everything in the bible should be done.
A lot of the stories in there are just stories, for us to read. You know... ?
I don't believe in a violent and oppressive religion. I believe in a loving God.
Also, please try to understand logic, "there is also a lack of evidence proving that there isn't a God."
That statement does not prove a god, and on a debate website, you cannot try to make someone else prove a negative.
I know that isn't proving anything.
I wasn't trying proving anything. I was trying to make you understand, that you have just as little evidence supporting your belief, as I have supporting mine.
And please do understand this; I'm not trying to prove anything, I am not trying to convince you to believe anything, and I know I don't have any evidence behind me.
You think you know so much about debating? A debate is when you discuss, you don't try to convince each other.
And it seems, like your obsessed with making me realize that I'm wrong. That is not a true debater :)
"I know that the flood was God, but I believe God did horrible stuff, but I also believe that those people who died were going to Heaven, and not to hell."
How can you say that?
There is no evidence a flood ever happened.
You cannot know they went to heaven or hell. You cannot even know a heaven or hell exists.
This is a debate website, bringing up points and things you believe that are easily open to argument is an excellent way to make someone desire to correct you.
Because you made statements like "I know this about this unknowable object", I feel that you need to defend yourself with more than "I believe."
This website is not for you if you cannot ever learn anything from anything besides what you believe.
Why don't you believe in Buddhism? It is a far more fair and tolerant religion than Christianity.
Well, actually there is. I saw a program on national geographic.
They we're digging really really deep in to the earth, and when they were like really deep down, they could see that there once was a very big flood.
If if was the flood we're talking about in the bible, no one knows.
But there was a big massive flood a long time ago.
But I'm not saying anything.
When will you get it in your head, that I'm not stating or saying anything. I'm just saying what I believe.
This is a debate website, bringing up points and things you believe that are easily open to argument is an excellent way to make someone desire to correct you.
And you have failed to correct me. When did you ever correct me? Not once during this debate were you able to 'correct' me.
Because you made statements like "I know this about this unknowable object", I feel that you need to defend yourself with more than "I believe."
I never made that statement. Tell me, when did I made that statement?
For a person who thinks he knows so much about debating, you are constantly saying that I said something I never have.
But I don't need to defend myself. I don't know why I should defend my belief. What I believe is not an object that can be harmed by you or any other person. I can lose it, just like you did.
But I'm not gonna defend my belief, because all I need to know about my God is that he loves me, and I don't have to defend that to anyone.
This website is not for you if you cannot ever learn anything from anything besides what you believe.
You've been here for what? 48 hours or so?
And you already know who is and who is not worthy of having a profile here?
And I have a freedom of speech, I came here because I want to speak up about some things. But not religion. I want to defend my political views.
Not what I believe. We two can discuss another thing if you like, to discuss religion is just wrong and pointless.
And tell me, if you think I haven't learned anything. What should I learn from you? What have you said during this debate if you can call it that, that I should learn something from?
I have learned just as much as you have - nothing.
Why don't you believe in Buddhism? It is a far more fair and tolerant religion than Christianity.
Again, you don't know anything about me or my religion. You don't know if its fair or tolerant or not.
The only thing Christians have in common is that they believe in Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. Is it unfair to believe in those things? And for who is it unfair for?
There are millions of different Christians.
Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah's witnesses, Pentecost.. and hundreds of others.
And each Christian has his own religion too. You can't say anything about my religion,you don't know what it is.
And I believe my faith is tolerant.
I mean, I believe gays should be allowed to marry - I think that is pretty tolerant considering I'm a Christian.
I'm not a Buddhist because I'm a Christian. Stupid question I think.
If you don't want to talk about religion, then stop talking about religion... sheesh.
This is a debate website. Stop posting if you don't want to debate. If you want to debate politics, stay out of the religion section.
And no, not all Christians believe in God, and not all believe in the Holy Spirit.
Really, what do you believe? Why don't you explain that to me?
If you don't wish to explain it, then admit defeat.
If you don't want to argue religion, then don't argue religion.
If you're unsure of your religion, then study it.
Why do you think I'm atheist? If you want to keep debating, answer that. Give a good, solid reason why a person might be atheist.
If your answer takes thought and you actually tried to answer it, not just "Because you hate god" or something shallow and antagonistic like that, then I'll believe that you have an interest in life, the universe and everything.
If you do not care about life, the universe and everything, then seriously, don't tell me about your beliefs. You can believe ANYTHING, but if you can't back them up, and you don't want to debate them, then go to the politics section.
It's not a stupid question. It's probably a question you don't want to think about.
Do you know why you are Christian? You said your parents told you.
Do you know why someone is Hindu?
Do you know why a person is Islamic?
Do you realize these people believe just as strongly as you do?
"But I don't need to defend myself. I don't know why I should defend my belief."
"But I'm not gonna defend my belief, because all I need to know about my God is that he loves me, and I don't have to defend that to anyone"
Why? How do you know?
You say you won't defend yourself, yet your Bible says I'm going to hell.
Even if you don't believe in hell, what does that mean? Is it ok to believe in Jesus of the Bible, but not Hell of the Bible?
Do you believe in Satan of the Bible? The Angels in the Bible?
Or is the Bible only right about ONE thing?
If yes, then is Heaven not real?
You say the story of Genesis isn't real, what else isn't real to you in the Bible?
How do you pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe?
Just based on what's convenient? It's easy to not believe in hell, no one wants to believe there's a hell, of course, but to accept Jesus in the Bible, yet not the stories of Hell in the Bible seems like a very odd thing to do.
It makes no sense at all. You would not behave that way about ANY other subject, except something like this, which is founded on pure mindless belief.
Look at the Dark Ages. Look at the church's corruption. You can say "Those people are just using the Bible wrong!"
But no, you are also corrupting what the Bible says.
You invented your own religion based off the Bible. You can't deny that because that's exactly what you did.
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"Because you made statements like "I know this about this unknowable object", I feel that you need to defend yourself with more than "I believe." "
"I never made that statement. Tell me, when did I made that statement?"
You made a statement like that in your post here. Did you forget?
"No one created God.
God is infinite, like a circle. He never started and he never ends"
That is something unknowable, yet you didn't say "I think god is infinite"
When it comes to religion I never make statements.
It's not a stupid question. It's probably a question you don't want to think about. Do you know why you are Christian? You said your parents told you.
Do you know why someone is Hindu?
Do you know why a person is Islamic?
Actually I already thought about it. I'm not a Buddhist because I love God.
And not all people who are religious are it because their parents are. Many of them have found God by themselves, but I consider it a good thing that I grew up in a Christian family.
No, I don't know why some people are Hindu or Islamic. You will have to ask them.
Do you realize these people believe just as strongly as you do?
Yes I do, what is wrong with that?
Just because I believe in God, just as much as another person believes in Allah or something else, doesn't mean neither of the Gods are real.
I believe my God is real, another person believes another God is real, and a third person believes there is no God.
We just have to wait and see who's right.
Why? How do you know?
I feel it. Usually you feel love, you don't see it or hear it or anything.
You feel it. And I feel God's love, thats how I know.
You say you won't defend yourself, yet your Bible says I'm going to hell. Even if you don't believe in hell, what does that mean? Is it OK to believe in Jesus of the Bible, but not Hell of the Bible? Do you believe in Satan of the Bible? The Angels in the Bible?
Or is the Bible only right about ONE thing?
If yes, then is Heaven not real?
My bible? It isn't my bible .
Is it okay? I don't know what okay is. I guess its okay to believe anything you want.
And I believe in Jesus, not Hell.
I believe that Satan exists, and he's trying to tempt us, but not that we're going to live with him if we fall for the temptations.
I believe Heaven is real, and why do you say it isn't just because I don't believe in hell?
You say the story of Genesis isn't real, what else isn't real to you in the Bible?
How do you pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe?
I don't pick.
The story of Genesis is real. Its a story that happened. Its not a story showing us that this is the way we should live.
I believe everything in the bible happened. I don't believe everything in the bible are laws that we have to follow. Some is, but not everything.
Just based on what's convenient? It's easy to not believe in hell, no one wants to believe there's a hell, of course, but to accept Jesus in the Bible, yet not the stories of Hell in the Bible seems like a very odd thing to do.
Yes it is an odd thing. And if you think I do that you're wrong.
I accept Jesus in the bible. I believe the stories in the bible happened, that they're real. But I don't think, that just because there is a story in the bible about a naughty child, which then was stoned to death by PEOPLE, is the right thing to do.
You have to know, that there are people in the bible. Regular people like you and me, who make mistakes. God wasn't a part of stoning children, it was humans.
People don't seem to disassemble the people from God, when reading the bible.
Have you read the bible?
Look at the Dark Ages. Look at the church's corruption. You can say "Those people are just using the Bible wrong!"
But no, you are also corrupting what the Bible says.
You invented your own religion based off the Bible. You can't deny that because that's exactly what you did.
Yes it is.
I read a book, and I believe whats in it. And I believed what I read.
I'm not corrupting it. I'm just telling you how I read the bible, from my perspective. And yes, I made my own religion. Everyone who has a religion has their own.
You made a statement like that in your post here. Did you forget?
"No one created God.
God is infinite, like a circle. He never started and he never ends"
That is something unknowable, yet you didn't say "I think god is infinite"
You said "God is"
How in the world can you know that??
I would go back through this whole debate, and quote how many times I didn't state that.
If you haven't got it in your brain (which I really am beginning to wonder if it is real) that I didn't state that. It is seriously something wrong with you.
Stop saying I state, stop saying I claim, stop telling me to prove .. I don't do any of those things. I don't need to do those things, I don't feel like do those things.
Why? cause whats the point in telling you what I believe when you don't understand? You can't understand. No one will ever understand another person who believes another thing.
How in the world can I know that.
I'll tell you. I don't know. I didn't state it. I don't know. I didn't state it either.
I believe.
Got it know, or should I keep writing that I didn't state it? Should I repeat that I don't know? Because I don't know, and you don't know either.
I'm serious, if you can't handle debates, then you can't keep arguing like this.
No matter what you believe, right or wrong, if you can't back it up, don't debate it.
You think I enjoy thinking of complex arguments only to hear back "I BELIEVE NO MATTER WHAT"?
No, you're wrong about not being able to convince other people of things.
I am atheist. I was once not. Until you figure out WHY I switched, why I have rejected those things you believe in, you will continue to be unable to support your beliefs.
I'm serious, if you can't handle debates, then you can't keep arguing like this.. No matter what you believe, right or wrong, if you can't back it up, don't debate it.
You started.
You think I enjoy thinking of complex arguments only to hear back "I BELIEVE NO MATTER WHAT"?
When I tell you what I believe, I'm not telling you what you want to hear.
So no, and I'm not trying to make this debate joyful for you, if thats what you're thinking.
No, you're wrong about not being able to convince other people of thing
I'm not trying to convince you or any other person.
I am atheist. I was once not. Until you figure out WHY I switched, why I have rejected those things you believe in, you will continue to be unable to support your beliefs.
I am able to support my beliefs. I just don't want to defend my beliefs.
Do you know how many people like you come around and tell me things like you are telling me?
You're not the first one who asks me these kinda questions you know? And frankly Im kinda tired of answering them, cause you will never understand me.
Every argument I've had with atheists ended just like this one :) They got mad, because they couldn't convince me that my beliefs was wrong. Why couldn't they? Becuase they didn't have evidence supporting them either.
Again, you don't have any evidence proving that I'm wrong.
And I don't have any evidence proving that you're wrong.
Its a matter of choice, and you'll just have to accept, that some people acutally disagree with you. I accept that you don't agree with me - that's a true debater.
A person like you, who get mad and asks me to leave this page - thats what I call a pussy.
And "Stop saying I state, stop saying I claim, stop telling me to prove .. I don't do any of those things. I don't need to do those things, I don't feel like do those things.
Why? cause whats the point in telling you what I believe when you don't understand? You can't understand. No one will ever understand another person who believes another thing.
How in the world can I know that.
I'll tell you. I don't know. I didn't state it. I don't know. I didn't state it either."
That is the saddest thing I have read.
You did state it. Do you understand what a statement is?
Do you understand what an assertion is? When you make a point like "I believe this", on this sort of website, people here will want to know WHY. If you can't answer that without saying "I believe because I believe", then you will be looked down on.
You cannot form a rational argument. Saying you feel love is the saddest thing. That's an imaginary friend.
If you could prove that your god existed, I would believe you, but when you can't prove a god, yet you still feel it's effects, that is very sad.
It is obvious you invented your religion. All religions are invented, as you said. Unless reality is subjective, I'm afraid you are wrong. God is not real, and god does not exist.
Reality is not subjective, because if it was, science would not work.
Science works. Electricity works according to theory, gravity works, heat works, stars work, biology works.
Everything works without miracles or gods or magic.
Do you understand what an assertion is? When you make a point like "I believe this", on this sort of website, people here will want to know WHY. If you can't answer that without saying "I believe because I believe", then you will be looked down on.
And why, why I ask you. Why should I care how people look at me? Is the goal in life really to be looked up at?
If that's your goal, then thats the saddest thing I've ever read.
I don't care what you think of my religion. I couldn't care less.
You cannot form a rational argument. Saying you feel love is the saddest thing. That's an imaginary friend.
You can't from a rational argument either. You can't tell me why my beliefs are wrong.
If you could prove that your god existed, I would believe you, but when you can't prove a god, yet you still feel it's effects, that is very sad.
Is it sad to feel loved? I think its more sad to not have any love at all.
I'm not trying to get you to believe me.
God is not real, and god does not exist.
How can you say that? How can you make a statement like that, without any evidence supporting you ?
You know what really is sad? People like you who think they're better than other people, that's what is sad.
Science works. Electricity works according to theory, gravity works, heat works, stars work, biology works.
Have I said it didn't work?
Everything works without miracles or gods or magic.
Miracles don't work? lol.
Life is a miracle. That the flowers rice every spring is pure miracle. That a woman can get pregnant, that a woman can give life, is a miracle. Its magic.
Just stop. If you don't like arguing, if you're getting angry, then quit...
My rational argument is "Prove god"
You have not done that. You have said you felt God.
I could say I feel unicorns. Doesn't make it true.
It's not rational to you, because you are not rational.
You do not seem to understand why even you believe what you do.
Why are you fighting about god? Why is it important to you?
Why do you disagree with me on everything I say?
Why do you pick apart what I say, yet you don't say anything besides opinions and claims.
"Life is a miracle. That the flowers rice every spring is pure miracle. That a woman can get pregnant, that a woman can give life, is a miracle. Its magic."
Life is fascinating, but it's not a supernatural miracle.
To say it is, is very simple. It is complex. It is not magic.
"Science works. Electricity works according to theory, gravity works, heat works, stars work, biology works.
Have I said it didn't work?"
Do you know why I said that? Please tell me why you think I mentioned why those work, and tell me why you think I am arguing against your god.
I went through similar nonsense with her (at one point, I suspect being unable to handle the confusion I created in her mind, she began ignoring what I wrote). I ended up asking a lot of questions to which I got zero rational answers (most questions didn't get answered at all). The overall outcome was that she just "believes" and that's all, or that god made it so. She is obsessed with her beliefs and if something impacts them then she either ignores it or bends it somehow to suit her preferences.
It is sad but true - her mind is not well - she is delusional.
Don' try to make you look like a saint. Neither of you can answer my ONLY question.
Show me the evidence proving that there is zero possibility my God doesn't exist.
You can't, and instead of realizing that, you're just calling me irrational. If that's how you win a debate, then congratulations. You've won, but you didn't accomplish anything, because neither of you have changed my mind.
I'm not, I'm just stating facts as I have first observed them.
Neither of you can answer my ONLY question.
Of course we can, if there is an answer.
Show me the evidence proving that there is zero possibility my God doesn't exist.
I gave you proof through logic in another debate, you obviously ignored that too.
I'll retell this much. There might be some very powerful beings somewhere out there, but there is no proof to that. When it comes to your specific God and the fact that he supposedly created something, but in reality everything evolved, then that means your specific God does not exist. Because evolution disproves the act of creation and since your precious religion says creation happened and was done by God, it means it is all a lie, it means that God does not exist.
You can't
And yet I did.
and instead of realizing that, you're just calling me irrational.
Oh, and you are irrational also.
See, I gave you proof you won't comprehend and you are also irrational. You did notice I said won't, you could but you won't, because of your...
If that's how you win a debate, then congratulations.
Of course I "won" the debate, because you gave NO real nor rational answers to any of our questions.
You've won, but you didn't accomplish anything, because neither of you have changed my mind.
That is because you are, basically, mentally ill. You are obsessed, you are delusional, and shut out everything and everyone that disagrees with you and provides you irrefutable evidence and logic to the contrary of your beliefs.
You are simply messed up in the head. Sorry to say so but it is evidently true. The sooner you see yourself as you really are the better for you, not us. The sooner you can begin setting your life straight. We are simply trying to help you get to that point. It's similar with addicts, try to get them to accept treatment, very hard to do, until they see themselves.
I asked you one question, you ignored it several times.
Tell me nummi.. where is the evidence proving that there is no God?
Logic doesn't tell me or you anything. You believe in evidence right? There are no evidence, so you can't go around and say that there is no God,then you're going against your own religion.
Oh, and you are irrational also.
See, I gave you proof you won't comprehend and you are also irrational. You did notice I said won't, you could but you won't, because of your...
What proof? I don't see any proof.
Where is the proof?
Of course I "won" the debate, because you gave NO real nor rational answers to any of our questions.
You didn't either.
You used fancy words I didn't even know the meaning of, and had to go to google translate to find out what they meant.
Using fancy words in your argument doesn't make it the truth.
You asked me billions of questions. I didn't answer all of them, why bother?
I asked you one question. Maybe two.
One was did you read the bible
the other was where is the evidence proving no God?!?!?!?! you didn't answer. In fact you ignored it several times.
That is because you are, basically, mentally ill. You are obsessed, you are delusional, and shut out everything and everyone that disagrees with you and provides you irrefutable evidence and logic to the contrary of your beliefs.
And what are you? you listen to everybody ? you agree with everybody? you sure didn't listen or agree with me. So whats the difference between you and me there?
I could agree with you on something. Just not here, and it bothers you, that I disagree with you. That makes you mentally ill, not me.
You are simply messed up in the head. Sorry to say so but it is evidently true. The sooner you see yourself as you really are the better for you, not us. The sooner you can begin setting your life straight. We are simply trying to help you get to that point. It's similar with addicts, try to get them to accept treatment, very hard to do, until they see themselves.
The sooner you can prove to me, that I'm wrong, the sooner that will happen.
Seriously, show me the proof... where is it? No one can give me an answer for my question. Can you prove to me, that there are no possibilities of a higher power what so ever?
When all the evidence comes against you, to keep fighting in the face of that is insanity.
I am hoping that link to scientists creating life will break her.
I really don't understand her motivations though, and why she keeps insisting she hates arguing religion.
This is the internet, she can just leave if she wants to. It's not difficult to admit you're wrong. In fact, admitting you're wrong is something only the most intelligent people can do well, I think.
When all the evidence comes against you, to keep fighting in the face of that is insanity.
What evidence? Show me the evidence please.
Where is the evidence proving that there is zero possibility that my God doesn't exist? Show me, and I'll admit I'm wrong.
I really don't understand her motivations though, and why she keeps insisting she hates arguing religion.
Maybe because i don't like it? I'm not arguing. You're just asking me questions and I'm answering.
This is the Internet, she can just leave if she wants to. It's not difficult to admit you're wrong. In fact, admitting you're wrong is something only the most intelligent people can do well, I think.
Yeah I could leave :) in fact I should. I don't really know why I bother having this debate with you.
But tell me, where was I wrong?
Can you prove to me that my God doesn't exist? The only thing you say is, that there is no evidence my God exist.
But there isn't evidence proving he doesn't either, so just shut the 'admit your wrong' thing. Because I'm not wrong, and neither are you two.
But you know what? I'm going to do this, and you do it too.
I want you to turn on a recording microphone, so this works for sure.
I want you to say out loud "God, do you exist?"
Record it. Even if you cannot hear the words of god, I want you to upload it anyways. Include 10 seconds or so at the end, so I know there's time for god to respond. Maybe it'll be in some otherworld frequency only disbelievers can here.
My idea is if your god doesn't exist, or doesn't care that people don't believe in him, then he won't answer, and you can stop arguing.
If he does answer, then you win this argument, and I'm not a Christian.
Please don't fake it, of course. That's the sort of thing that a god would actually get REALLY angry about, I think. Impersonating god is probably .... yeah. That's being a false prophet, right? So let's be honest.
Record yourself asking "God, do you exist?" and if your god is all knowing, all seeing, and all powerful, I'm sure he will respond if he wants to. I will also ask this out loud, and if a god answers on your end, then I'll record myself asking the same, to confirm that a god will actually answer both of us, to prevent faking.
Really, you try to say none of us is wrong, yet it appears that you are wrong. You are saying there is a god, and I am saying there isn't. There isn't a compromise in this sort of thing. Either supernatural forces exist or they don't. Sometimes existing is a positive on your end. You have sometimes existing and always existing, I can only say they never exist.
So do that recording thing, if you dare. I'm sure the results will be interesting. If you decline, then I will assume you don't have enough faith in your god to do this, and that I win this personal argument.
But you know what? I'm going to do this, and you do it too.
I want you to turn on a recording microphone, so this works for sure.
I want you to say out loud "God, do you exist?"
Record it. Even if you cannot hear the words of god, I want you to upload it anyways. Include 10 seconds or so at the end, so I know there's time for god to respond. Maybe it'll be in some otherworld frequency only disbelievers can here.
Weren't you a christian before? Then you'd know, that God speaks to us through the bible.
And just because he doesn't answer me, is not an evidence of that he doesn't exist.
Instead recording to what you say, Im gonna record this: Mackindale's Brain, are you there?
And give your brain 10 seconds to answer.
That's the sort of thing that a god would actually get REALLY angry
I hope you're joking. Please read the Koran, the Vedas, Buddhist philosophy, Greek myths, Norse myths, Egyptian myths and all other religions you can, and tell me they don't all sound like those gods are speaking to you.
"LET THERE BE LIGHT" God said that and there was light.
Later that week, he made the sun.
That is a massive contradiction I found on page 1 of the Bible.
How can you feel that isn't the work of flawed humans? No god wrote that.
It's easy to invent a character. JK Rowling did it.
God isn't even that good of a character.. He killed everyone in the flood, right? sheesh
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I'm not sure what you mean by my brain. Yes, if you really want to test god, then say what I told you to. If you can't do that then you already know in your heart that god can't possibly exist. You don't want to ask that question and hear only silence.
Fear holds you back. Have courage and seize the day.
I have already tested God many times, and he didn't fail once.
You think you have. It's called an imaginary friend, you know, a unicorn. It is also called insanity.
Reality hurts and you resort to fantasy. It is called escapism. Yeah... you've got issues.
And to be honest, I'm more interested in testing if your brain really exists.
I mean, you can't give me any real evidence, just that you can google other people's brains. That is not a real evidence.
You do know if he were to prove it to you he would literally die? He could survive but I doubt he is a brain surgeon, so all bets are on lights out.
Other people's brains? So you assume if they have, some others don't and can actually be alive? Every person who is alive has a brain, it is a fact. No brain equals a dead corpse.
You have a brain too. Why don't you take a sharp knife, take a mirror and start cutting. Oh, and be careful, one slip and that's it. Those who make a suicide go to hell, right? That would basically be a suicide, the cutting yourself and accidentally killing yourself but the cutting was intentional so... Since you are afraid of hell you won't do it. I won't do something like that because I know I would very probably die, or receive brain damage that can cause various other issues. The only thing that seems to keep you back is the fear of hell.
Come out of your box and face reality, seriously now.
Self replicating chemicals are likely the first sort of life ever made on Earth. Because they self replicate, offspring that is not good at self replicating will not replicate, ones that are good will. That's evolution.
Also, the evidence against god is this "All religions are invented by humans.
Humans are flawed, and religion is dogmatic. It cannot be corrected if it is wrong."
Because God is only found in holy books, churches and religion, all of which is created by flawed humans, all the myths on earth all have the same source. Science, including evolution, gravity, and light is based on observation of what is real, and it is falsifiable. Science is not created by man, only observed. If light is shown to go faster than C, then all current theories involving light must change. If we find evolution is true, the Bible will not EVER change. It is stubborn.
But if religion was a force of good, if it was ONLY charities that it founded, if all good people were religious, and all bad people atheist, I would understand, but only religious people have reasons like "God wills it" behind oppressing women, gays, blacks, other cultures and religions and anyone who disagrees with them. Even you are like that with me. I have stated nothing except "Prove that God exists"
BUT, I can't disprove something. In a debate, a person NEVER needs to disprove something.
Because there is no proof either way, I will not believe in it. To do so would endorse the Bible, something I find oppressive and evil.
Then can we leave it at there?
You have no evidence, I have no evidence.. lets just make peace, this is a dead end.
The rest you wrote I didn't read, cause its late and I'm tired ;p but I'm sure you're right about scientists making life.
Al tho I don't mean plants or anything .. I mean life .. they haven't created a human, with emotions and consciousness. Or did they? I've never heard of it anyway.
You should have stopped talking at "The rest you wrote I didn't read, cause its late and I'm tired ;p but I'm sure you're right about scientists making life."
If you need to continue to specify requirements in order to feel good about your religion, then you are impossible.
And yes, let's stop. But I'm not sure about me having no evidence. I'm pretty sure the fact that there are more gods than one, yet many of them say "there are no gods but me" is a massive contradiction, which can work to reveal the information that religions are made up by man and have no truth to them at all, besides minor historical details.
If you need to continue to specify requirements in order to feel good about your religion, then you are impossible.
And yes, let's stop. But I'm not sure about me having no evidence. I'm pretty sure the fact that there are more gods than one, yet many of them say "there are no gods but me" is a massive contradiction, which can work to reveal the information that religions are made up by man and have no truth to them at all, besides minor historical details.
I feel good about my religion.
And 'pretty sure' isn't a rational argument, like you said.
There is nothing you have to prove what you believe in.
Why should I respect or consider your beliefs valid? You made it up, or someone taught you stuff, I've found it to be wrong and incorrect, and you fight against all logic and evidence, as if you were 100% correct no matter what.
Just because it's a spiritual matter doesn't mean there isn't a right or wrong answer. You can be wrong about more than just mathematics or a school test.
There is nothing you have to prove what you believe in.
You believe there is no God.
There is no evidence supporting that either.
Why should I respect or consider your beliefs valid? You made it up, or someone taught you stuff, I've found it to be wrong and incorrect, and you fight against all logic and evidence, as if you were 100% correct no matter what.
If I am correct, Darwin or someone made up yours.
I fight against evidence? Yes I agree with you I fight against logic, but evidence?
I ask you one more time. What evidence are you talking about? where is the evidence proving me wrong.
If you tell me, I will surrender, I will become an atheist and you've won this debate.
I've asked you several times, and you have never been able to answer me, so I guess the answer is, that there is no such evidence, proving my belief wrong.
I don't think you understand evidence or brainwashing.
I have given you things to think about. Reread this debate, ALL of it, and tell me there is no evidence for my side.
And Darwin? Are you some creationist fiend? Get out of here if you are. Creationists defy logic and sanity.
And again, you will NEVER submit until you decide on your own. I have given evidence and reasons, you choose to not listen to them because you already believe something. You don't want the truth, you want to be right.
I have given you things to think about. Reread this debate, ALL of it, and tell me there is no evidence for my side.
There is no evidence supporting you, of what you said so far.
I can't come up with a logical evidence proving that my God is a fantasy figure.
If there is, and I've missed it, please show me where it is.
And Darwin? Are you some creationist fiend? Get out of here if you are. Creationists defy logic and sanity.
I think I'm kinda in the middle of evolution an creationist. And what is so bad about being a creationist?
I don't think you understand evidence or brainwashing.
I don't think you understand evidence at all, since you think that the fact there is no proves of God is a proof of there is no God.
And again, you will NEVER submit until you decide on your own. I have given evidence and reasons, you choose to not listen to them because you already believe something. You don't want the truth, you want to be right.
Evidence and reasons? where?
Every time I've asked for evidence, all I got was: I can't prove a negative blablabla... where is the evidence you claim to have given me?
It is logically impossible to prove a negative, so we can only prove God doesn't exist to the same extent that we can prove that Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Just because someone came up with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and it is hard to prove a negative, doesn't mean FSM exists.
There are several ways you can provide evidence against a theory.
You can look at the origins of the idea.
No one believes in (or even knows) the earliest god(s) man came up with; we take for granted that man has made up thousands of false gods for thousands of years.
You can look at the beliefs themselves.
Man has used gods to enforce order and morality and to explain then unknown phenomenon such as lightning, asteroids, comets, earthquakes, volcanoes, sickness, childbirth, etc. As humans have learned the truth behind these phenomena, the scope of god has been diminished until we are now left with a near powerless god existing basically to kick off the big bang.
* You can look at the material itself for contradictions.
I gave you several methods of arguing against the God of the Bible
(The origin of the concept of God, the attributes assigned to God which we know understand, contradictions with science and contradictions within itself)
There are also other logical and evidential arguments against God
Isn't it just as likely that God is morally bad as it is that God is morally good? or even more likely, good and bad?
Anything is possible, but I believe that my God is only good, but not everything we consider as 'bad' is bad in God's eyes, and not everything we consider 'good' is good in God's eyes. Like being rich and stuff, isn't very good.
I believe the bible contains stories. Real stories that actually happened.
I don't think every single word in the bible is a law.
I don't think, that just because there is a story about a child getting stoned to death, because he misbehaved, means that I have to do that with my own kid.
No, that is just a story.
People have to know the difference between stories in the bible and laws.
Why is it that Athesits cannot accept that someone can believe in something without proof, if someone is happy in what they believe because it enriches their life why should they have to prove it. From what I have seen Atheists seem to be the ones desparate to disuade Christians from their beliefs, why? Another thing I have found interesting with a lot of Atheists is that they are quick to assume things which I find strange for a group of people who are so obssesed with proof, the other day an Atheist assumed with no proof of my beliefs that I was a Christian because I disagreed with something he said.
Anyway to my point the title of this debate is Why do you believe what you do, I assume that the person who set up the debate wanted some insight into what and why people believe what they do, Birgitsiv put forward her reasons and people immediately started demanding proof and saying that she was wrong because she could not supply proof she said she was'nt debating her beliefs just stating her reasons for them, why cant Atheists accept that she has differing beliefs and leave her be. I have found a lot of Atheists to be as bad and close minded as any militant religous person
Why is it that Athesits cannot accept that someone can believe in something without proof,
It's not that they cannot accept it, it's why you believe it. That is the problem.
if someone is happy in what they believe because it enriches their life why should they have to prove it.
There it is. Believing lies does not enrich ones life in a positive way, only in negative. Life based on lies is not worth living. And that is all religion is - a huge and very old lie.
From what I have seen Atheists seem to be the ones desparate to disuade Christians from their beliefs, why?
Because believing something that has no evidence and, in fact, is not real is being delusional and being delusional is, in essence, being insane. This is what religion requires - to be insane, basically.
Another thing I have found interesting with a lot of Atheists is that they are quick to assume things which I find strange for a group of people who are so obssesed with proof, the other day an Atheist assumed with no proof of my beliefs that I was a Christian because I disagreed with something he said.
It doesn't really matter what religion you are of, they are all lies.
Birgitsiv put forward her reasons and people immediately started demanding proof and saying that she was wrong because she could not supply proof she said she was'nt debating her beliefs just stating her reasons for them,
Taking something as real when there is no evidence to it is very unhealthy for ones mind. It is downright stupid. This is why people demand proof, because the other persons opinions aren't based on reality. This is called insanity, sorry... religion (mass insanity).
There is plenty of proof to claim religions false, the only problem is that the religious are denying pretty much all of it. But there is no evidence to prove religions true, and never will be, because they are fundamentally wrong.
why cant Atheists accept that she has differing beliefs and leave her be.
They do accept that she has differing beliefs, the problem is why she has them and what they are. In this case she doesn't really have answers to those questions herself either, and saying "I just believe" or "God made it so" is not an answer. It indicates mental issues.
I have found a lot of Atheists to be as bad and close minded as any militant religous person
That's because those atheists know what is right and what is wrong and they fight for it (a good cause considering there are so many other causes based on delusions). Because their opinions are based on reality, not fantasy.
And militant religious people? You mean terrorists, right? See the issue there? Terrorists...
It's not that they cannot accept it, it's why you believe it. That is the problem.
Why is it a problem? Is it bothering you, is it hurting your family? No, so shut the problem thing. The only problem we have here, is that you and all the other none believers can't accept that some people simply don't agree with you.
There it is. Believing lies does not enrich ones life in a positive way, only in negative. Life based on lies is not worth living. And that is all religion is - a huge and very old lie.
There it is again.
You don't have any proof that it is a lie.
I can't prove to you that my God exists. But you can't prove that he doesn't either, so why are you telling me that it is a lie, when you don't have any evidence supporting you?
Because believing something that has no evidence and, in fact, is not real is being delusional and being delusional is, in essence, being insane. This is what religion requires - to be insane, basically.
Is it bothering you that people believe in something without any evidence proving thats the truth? Seriously? Is your life that boring?
And you don't have any proof of your theory either.
Again, there is no evidence supporting that there is no God. So you actually believe in something that isn't proved either.
Why is it a problem? Is it bothering you, is it hurting your family?
Why is it a problem? Is it bothering you, is it hurting your family?
Why is it a problem? Is it bothering you, is it hurting your family?
Why is it a problem? Is it bothering you, is it hurting your family?
WOW.
-
Do you understand WHY I dislike religion? I couldn't care less if it was some trifle about Elvis being dead or alive. This is quite a bit different.
Do you understand how much pain religion has caused people? Do you think gay people are alright with Christians OUTLAWING gay marriage? If it was a debate, I wouldn't mind, but it is ACTUALLY outlawed, and it is not like "Should we outlaw it" it IS outlawed, and that is not ok with me.
Throughout history, this has happened AGAIN AND AGAIN. Slavery, oppression of women, ignorance and hostility to science.
If you can't see the harm religion does, then you are clearly covering your eyes in your own filthy, putrid ignorance.
I don't debate religion for fun, although it is entertaining, I really do dislike religion because of this shit you bring upon the world.
Even if YOU personally are not against gay marriage, you are supporting a Bible and a religion that is. I cannot accept a person who accepts such a violent book as a sane or kind person.
You eliminated Greek culture, Viking culture, you've tried in the past, and you're trying again to eliminate Islamic culture.
Religion has caused only bloodshed throughout history. The happiness based on delusion is brings to some people is not worth this pain it causes others.
I don't think I said that. I do think that if people let go of religion, people could no longer use religion as a scapegoat.
Even if religion doesn't fuel every war, it is a nice motivator for some people. Same with same sex marriage stuff. Some people think it's gross anyways, but they can't say that without looking like a huge jerk unless they say "God hates fags"
Do you understand WHY I dislike religion? I couldn't care less if it was some trifle about Elvis being dead or alive. This is quite a bit different.
I understand why you dislike religion.
But why bother making people not believe? What is the point? Do you feel like you achieved something in life if you can make a believer turn into a nonbeliever? Is it bothering you that people believe in something?
Do you understand how much pain religion has caused people? Do you think gay people are alright with Christians OUTLAWING gay marriage? If it was a debate, I wouldn't mind, but it is ACTUALLY outlawed, and it is not like "Should we outlaw it" it IS outlawed, and that is not OK with me.
You can't that against me. I'm not against gay marriage, I'm supporting gay marriage. And in my country gay marriage is allowed.
If you can't see the harm religion does, then you are clearly covering your eyes in your own filthy, putrid ignorance.
If you think those things will go away if the whole world were atheist, then I must say I have to laugh.
I don't debate religion for fun, although it is entertaining, I really do dislike religion because of this shit you bring upon the world.
Okey, I don't care.
I cannot accept a person who accepts such a violent book as a sane or kind person
I don't accept the book. I accept God.
I've read it. I think those violent episodes in the book are lessons for me. I'm not supposed to repeat those episodes, I'm supposed to learn from them.
Did you miss the part "Even if you personally don't hate gays"?
You still had numbers to their group.
Why not become a deist? Reject the bible, like it seems you've done, and just live with the idea of a force behind the big bang or something.
Or are you a creationist?
I just find the Bible to be filled with violent hate speech, from the mouth of god, apparently, so I find it offensive when I find people agree with it.
Why is it a problem? Is it bothering you, is it hurting your family?
Is it bothering me that more than half of humanity (billions) are adhering to utter stupidity and delusions and that they teach the same crap to their children? OF COURSE IT BOTHERS ME!
The only problem we have here, is that you and all the other none believers can't accept that some people simply don't agree with you.
Reread my previous post... you clearly missed something.
You don't have any proof that it is a lie.
I've given you more than enough proof, so has Mackindale, you simply ignore all of it.
I can't prove to you that my God exists. But you can't prove that he doesn't either, so why are you telling me that it is a lie, when you don't have any evidence supporting you?
Because he does not exist. And yes, there is evidence to its nonexistence, but you have ignored all of it.
Something not existing and yet claimed to exist is a lie. And the evidence part, again... read through all of my previous arguments on this topic, also in other debates.
Is it bothering you that people believe in something without any evidence proving thats the truth? Seriously?
Is it bothering me that so many people are being kept stupid by religion? Why should it not bother me? I actually care about humanity and where it is going.
Is your life that boring?
And how exactly is that relevant to all this? I should not bother myself with important issues and not think about them, in fact not think about anything? Are you stupid? Of course you are, you've given plenty of evidence of that. In fact downright delusional... as I've previously said.
And you don't have any proof of your theory either.
What theory exactly? So far everything I've said is backed up by actual reality (logic, evidence).
Again, there is no evidence supporting that there is no God.
Oh yes there is, and you've been provided plenty. But there is no evidence to a very powerful being, and that being would not be a god.
So you actually believe in something that isn't proved either.
The only definitions of "believe" that apply to me are:
1) to think, assume, or suppose
2) to think that someone is able to do (a particular action)
3) to have a conviction that (a person or thing) is, has been, or will be engaged in a given action or involved in a given situation
I was not talking about Terrorists I was talking about people who are so obssesed by their religion they think everyone should have the same beliefs as them and if they dont their wrong, maybe I should have made that clearer.
You say believing lies does not enrich your life, how so if your belief makes you happy then your life is enriched. You believe that religion is a lie, a lot of people disagree with you, for a lot of people the only thing that makes them happy is their beliefs take away that belief these people will be sad how will that make their lives better?
Yes there are some religious nutters but there are also some nutters who are not religious, there is no proof that being religious or not religous makes you insane
But like with Birgitsiv, I kept giving proof, and finally she got to the point where she didn't even bother to refute it, she just turned into some "lalala, I can't hear you, we're both right and both wrong, there's no way to know, and I believe so it's right!"
If a religious person can say without lying that "God exists"
Yet that god does NOT exist. Then they are insane.
How often did I ask you this question: Can you give me the evidence proving that there is no chance what so ever, that my God doesn't exist?
If you do that, I will surrender.
But you can't, so ofcourse Im going lalalala and refuse to understand you, because you can't even support your own belief, and your trying to make me prove mine, instead trying to prove your own.
Alright, then do it. "I am mentally insane." Say that please.
It is insane to say "There is no evidence against the existence of elves, but there is no evidence for the existence of elves. Therefor, I believe in elves."
That is literally what you are saying, but with a god.
That doesn't not make sense. Believing 'just in case' is something that is horrifying when it comes to the nature of the universe.
It is insane to say "There is no evidence against the existence of elves, but there is no evidence for the existence of elves. Therefor, I believe in elves."
No, what I'm saying is.
I've never had a sense able contact with your brain, but still I am sure you have one.
That is what I'm saying.
That is what I'm saying, but with God.
And Im not believing just in case.
If I believed just in case, I would believe every religion existing, in case one of them were right.
Yes, you can know I have a brain because you can google "brain" and find a picture of a brain.
You can perform a study on a brain. You can even saw your head open and use a mirror to check, although I don't recommend it.
But with a god, something from another world is not something you can guess about, right?
You can't test god. I can stay really late, and feel tired. That's my brain, being tired.
But you can't test that a god exists. You can't prove a god doesn't exist.
God doesn't affect daily life, or what would happen to atheists or nonchristians?
The very fact that god doesn't affect daily life, and that you can completely ignore every rule and live a completely normal life is a HUGE sign that maybe god doesn't actually exist.
It is nice to believe in those things, but if you want to know the truth, not just any truth handed to you by your parents or your school or your church or by holy books, but if you want to know how it really is, then forget everything you know.
Forget about your religion, stop being christian, don't be atheist, just look at the world. Don't make assumptions.
Don't say "Ahh, it's so beautiful.. I'm sure only a god could do this!"
I am sure people said that about many things in the past that were later revealed to have a non-supernatural source.
Instead, keep living life like normal, no gods, no spiritualism, no atheism, don't be skeptical, just believe what you see.
Tell me if you see a god or if you don't. Have you ever seen a god in the past? By see, I am referring to any sense.
Of course, there is that "feeling" that god exists, perhaps. I do not think that is god, because I feel that same feeling when I look up at night and look at stars. It's that "holy" feeling, I think. Religious people feel it about god, because that is important, the reason for life, the universe and everything, but to me, someone who isn't religious, I feel the same thing about stars and planets.
In the end, evidence and clever logic and belief don't mean anything.
Yes, you can know I have a brain because you can google "brain" and find a picture of a brain.
You can perform a study on a brain. You can even saw your head open and use a mirror to check, although I don't recommend it.
Yes I can google God too and find pictures of him.
And what I mean is, that until you saw your head open and look, you actually don't have any evidence of the existence of your brain.
That's my brain, being tired.
How do you know that? Prove it!
The very fact that god doesn't affect daily life, and that you can completely ignore every rule and live a completely normal life is a HUGE sign that maybe god doesn't actually exist.
You don't know how I live my life. How can you say that I ignore God and live my life normally, without any evidence supporting you?
Isn't your relevant argument: Prove it?
And God does affect my daily life, I don't know if he affects your but.. he affects mine.
And I don't ignore his rules.
I honor my mother and father, I don't steal, I don't kill (I might kill if you say I'm stating one more time ;) that was of course a joke) .. and so on.
Don't say "Ahh, it's so beautiful.. I'm sure only a god could do this!"
I don't say that.
I say: This is so beautiful, how could this come from nothing?
just believe what you see.
Well, if I went blind, should I believe nothing?
I like to use the other senses God has gifted me with. Like hearing, feeling, tasting and smelling.
I feel God, and to me that is enough. Don't ask me to prove it, I'm asking you to disprove it instead. Prove to me, that I don't feel God.
A creationist believes the universe is 6000 years old, that people came from adam and eve, that dinosaurs lived with humans and other nonsense.
Intelligent design stuff.
Pure brain poison, worse than any sort of normal religion. They follow the Bible exactly, but without compassion.
I don't think you're like that, but if you are, then I can't debate you or talk to you. Creationists think outside reality. They believe that this world is a like a horrible dream, and once they die, they go to heaven.
I mean, evidence are supporting that evolution happened, so I'm not gonna say it didn't.
I don't believe the world is 6000 years old.
I believe that a 'day' in the bible can be a lot longer then our 24 hour day.
Do you understand?
Also the 7 days that God created the universe.. I mean, what is a day? We don't know if a day back then, when there were no human on earth, what a day is.
Also, the bible says, that a day is like a thousand years to God, and a thousand years are like one day to God.
So God could've taken 250 billion years to make our universe.
And that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth?
I mean, there must be someone who was first. There wasn't like.. 1000 people falling from the sky to the earth right? Someone was the first one, and that could be Adam and Eve.
So I think I consider myself as a Christian who believes in evolution.
Those were probably my last few thoughts before I became atheist. I just saw the Bible, I saw the people who worshiped god, all these people filled with hate, I saw 9/11, I saw religion killing people, I saw judaism, islam, and christianity with all the same genesis tale, it looked so similar, yet there was so much hate.
Uh, it's because although the idea of a god is nice, if it's not true, and a person continues to believe no matter what anyone says, he considers them deluded.
I'm the same way, but I'm not hardcore atheist enough to ever bother writing a book about it.
I can't prove a negative. It's not possible, except in very special cases. This is not one of those cases.
This is you say "God exists"
and I say "God likely does not exist"
The only thing I can do is beat down any argument that you have trying to prove your god.
There is nothing I can do. We can wait and wait and wait, and maybe a god will say something, or we can just wait until we die to know. Right now, we will NEVER see proof of god, so I will not believe in it. I can be happy believing in humanity, in love, in science, in the universe and in myself. I do not need a god, and I do not think god exists.
I say likely in the above quote, because it is impossible to prove a negative, but it's also impossible to be sure about a negative. Unicorns are also not likely to exist.
When you can't prove me wrong, why do you keep saying my belief is a delusion?
And I'm not saying God exist.
I say; I believe God exists. There is a difference.
The only thing I can do is beat down any argument that you have trying to prove your god.
When you can't prove me wrong, then you're going against your own rational argument: Prove it!.
I say likely in the above quote, because it is impossible to prove a negative, but it's also impossible to be sure about a negative. Unicorns are also not likely to exist.
Its funny how atheists always say, that they only believe in evidence and stuff.
And yet they dare say, that unicorns don't exist.
You have no evidence what so ever, that unicorns aren't real. That is not a rational argument, if I may quote your own words.
I say it's a delusion because it's not true. No matter how impossible it is to PROVE that your god doesn't exist, it doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. It means that there's not way to prove a god. Being agnostic is the only thing one can do if you can't know either way. If you still believe anyways, then you're delusional. Not that I like that word, I feel it's too strong, but that's a common and simple way to put it.
"You have no evidence what so ever, that unicorns aren't real. That is not a rational argument, if I may quote your own words."
Yes, that's why I said likely don't exist. I didn't say they DON'T exist. I said they likely don't. I am a a-unicornist. I don't believe in them. It would be nice if they were real, but I do not think they are. I can look in a forest all day, and even though they MIGHT exist, I doubt I would ever find one, so I won't waste my time looking.
Those people kill people. Those are called terrorists, crusaders, anti-gay marriage advocates, slave owners, in the south back in the day.
If Christians hadn't chemically castrated Alan Turing for being gay, despite the fact he developed modern computers in WWII to fight against the Nazis, I might feel different.
Throughout time, again and again, religious has oppressed science, like Darwin, Galileo, Copernicus and even now, they still fight evolution.
They oppress society and science and because the Bible suggests that that try to convert people, it is something I would like gone.
On a debate website, I will fight it with tooth and nail, not because I feel it's wrong, but because I was indoctrinated into Catholicism, and now that I am past that, I can look back and see my mistakes. My prejudices against people, and how ending religion can help the world in MANY ways.
I need to dispute some of your "facts", I was not talking about Terrorists I was talking about people who are so obssesed by their religion they think everyone should have the same beliefs as them and if they dont their wrong, maybe I should have made that clearer.
You mention Slave Owners in the South yes there were Slave Owners in the South but there were more in the prosperous North, there were also people fighting in the Confederate army who were anti slavery the Confederate army also had free Blacks fighting on their side were they all religious possibly but we do not know for definate, you cannot blame religion for Americans wanting to own Slaves.
Alan Turing was not castrated by Christians he was Castrated by the British Government because Homosexuality was a crime back in 1952 and he was given the choice Chemical Castration or Prison he chose Castration then Suicide, a sad moment in British History but again you cannot blame religion.
You say Darwin was oppressed by Christians, he was a practicing Christian when he discovered his theory of evolution, so what oppressed him his own beliefs?
Some Christians and Religous people fight Evolution and Science these are the ones I call Militant because they refuse to believe something that is clearly true because it is not written in their religous text's. There are a lot of Christians that accept Science and Evolution, they accept that the Bible is not neccasarily true because it has been translated many times over many years and through mistranslation and corruption in the Church it is not going to be the exact word of God, these people use the Bible as a Spiritual guidebook and tend to be open minded and accepting.
No I am not happy that your experiences of religion were bad but you admit to being prejudiced against religion and religious people this can only be a hindrance in a debate
I will try. How should I try to do this? Normally, it's not possible to prove a negative, but tell me, what conditions would I have to show you in order to prove a god doesn't exist?
What is something I can prove in order to prove something doesn't exist?
Think about how you would prove for sure that unicorns don't exist.
How can you say that you believe in a god, yet have no proof at all?
I mean, believing means you don't need proof, but for something as important as the reason and cause of existence, life, the universe and all that exists, wouldn't you want to not assume things without knowing?
You ran out of logical points, you've ran out of hypothetical points, you have no anecdotes, however useless those are, and you have no proof.
I think you lost this debate.
You can repeat over and over "There's no proof either way", but as long as someone believes in a god that you don't believe in, then you have competition, and because it's not atheism or your god, it's best to assume atheism or agnosticism.
You understand what I'm saying, right?
That because there are so many gods, and no way to know which is right, unless you blindly believe, something that rational people are unwilling to do, rational meaning sane, intelligent or just people who don't want to believe things for the heck of it, I will not believe in a god. There is no reason to.
Seriously, don't believe in a god just because you were told to, or taught that a god exists.
Think for yourself, and believe things because they are true, not because it sounds nice, or you want it to be true, or any reason that makes it convenient.
If it's not true, then say "I don't know if it's true, I'm agnostic. I can't know either way."
Don't insult people because you can't cope with reality.
Seriously, no proof of god being proof there is no good is a good point, I think.
If I wasn't typing or breathing or thinking, that would be good proof I don't have a brain.
If there was no evidence at all that I had one, it would be logical to say "This person likely doesn't have a brain"
You can't know until you open my head up, but if the signs looked like there was no brain, that would be a wise belief, I think.
However, you are the one mechanically saying "I believe no matter what"
You know what indoctrination is, right?
Brainwashing people? Do you think you are brainwashed? Why are you so determined to be right, even to the point of ignoring all debate ethics and directly insulting me, without even a backup. I mean, I might have called you delusional, but I always offered reasons why. You just directly insult me, as if you were an angry child who didn't get her way. Grow up and face reality. You can't always be right. I have been wrong many times before. If I was wrong about this debate, I think you would have had some proof or evidence.
Don't insult people because you can't cope with reality.
Yeah, like you calling me irrelevant, irrational and apparently I can't think for myself.
Is that how you cope with reality?
Seriously, no proof of god being proof there is no good is a good point, I think.
Then no proof of your brain is a proof you have no brain.
You can't know until you open my head up, but if the signs looked like there was no brain, that would be a wise belief, I think.
Exactly. So open up your head, and we'll solve this whole thing.
Brainwashing people? Do you think you are brainwashed? Why are you so determined to be right, even to the point of ignoring all debate ethics and directly insulting me, without even a backup. I mean, I might have called you delusional, but I always offered reasons why. You just directly insult me, as if you were an angry child who didn't get her way. Grow up and face reality. You can't always be right. I have been wrong many times before. If I was wrong about this debate, I think you would have had some proof or evidence.
Whether I'm brainwashed or not time will tell.
But I think you are seriously brainwashed. You think you're better than me and you look down on me. I can feel it the way you write.
And when people think they're better than me, I call them brainwashed. Cuz they're not. I like to look at people straight in the eyes, neither up or down. Straight :)
First, before I begin, I have to apologize to all my allies for my unusually long hiatus from this site. I'm glad to say that I'm back, but my responses and comments will still remain sporadic.
Right, on to my counter-argument.
I trust the holy book, because it earned my trust
How did an inanimate object earn your trust?
I've learned a lot from it. And if you guys try to read it, you will know that there isn't just silly fairy tale stuff in it. A lot of wise quotes we know, are from the bible.
None of which lends any support to the claim that the Bible is factual.
The bible is a very good book, and even if you don't believe it, fairy tales can still be entertaining to read ;) So I will recommend you to read it :)
Yes, and so are The Da Vinci Code, Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, Les Miserables, etc. Still, it would be ridiculous for anyone to claim that anything that occurred in these stories are 100% true.
Even tho there is a lack of evidence that there is a God, there is also a lack of evidence proving that there isn't a God. So that tells us nothing.
Ah, so if there is a lack of evidence pointing to a celestial being, why say that it exists? Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that there is very probably no God - the fact that there is a lack of evidence that there is a God.
I believe what I do, because I felt God.
Even tho atheists want evidence and explanations and blablabla, I can only say that the fact that I've spoken to God, and he responded, that is enough evidence for me.
Charming, but hardly a good argument. Any con artist can say that a made-up deity or supernatural power spoke to him/her. Does that justify a con artist's actions if he/she were to pillage and plunder?
In the same way that atheists use fossils and layers as evidence for their beliefs.
What do you mean by this?
Why does the Bible need to be disproved? It has been at the foundations of many nations of the world.
You are misconstruing my argument. I never said that the Bible needed to be disproved. Christians can go believe in any fairy tale for all I care. I am more concerned about how the points that he/she has raised are any evidence for his/her arguments.
I don't see it much of an object, more like God's words.
None of which lends any support to the claim that the Bible is factual.
None of those lends any support to the claim that the bible is not factual either.
Ah, so if there is a lack of evidence pointing to a celestial being, why say that it exists? Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that there is very probably no God - the fact that there is a lack of evidence that there is a God.
You say: there is evidence suggestion there is probably no God.
How is this different from when I say there is a God? You have no evidence supporting that statement.
And I never said there is a God, I say I believe there is a God.
Charming, but hardly a good argument. Any con artist can say that a made-up deity or supernatural power spoke to him/her. Does that justify a con artist's actions if he/she were to pillage and plunder?
Yeah well I'm not a con artist, and that was not an argument. I was asked why I believed what I did, and I told you guys why. So that was not an argument, more an explanation of what I believe.
I don't see it much of an object, more like God's words.
Ah... So, does God exist?
None of those lends any support to the claim that the bible is not factual either.
A feeble response. My argument still holds. You have not provided any evidence that the Bible is factual.
You say: there is evidence suggestion there is probably no God.
How is this different from when I say there is a God? You have no evidence supporting that statement.
You are contradicting yourself. You quoted me, rightly, in saying that there is evidence suggesting that there is probably no God. And then, you turn around and claim that I have not provided any evidence for my statement when I clearly did.
And I never said there is a God, I say I believe there is a God.
Yes, and your evidence for holding such a belief is?
Yeah well I'm not a con artist, and that was not an argument. I was asked why I believed what I did, and I told you guys why. So that was not an argument, more an explanation of what I believe.
Well, explanations and arguments are not mutually exclusive.
A feeble response. My argument still holds. You have not provided any evidence that the Bible is factual.
My argument still holds too. You have not provided any evidence that the bible is not factual.
You are contradicting yourself. You quoted me, rightly, in saying that there is evidence suggesting that there is probably no God. And then, you turn around and claim that I have not provided any evidence for my statement when I clearly did.
Yeah, call me when you have proof that there is no possibility that my God doesn't exist. Suggesting he is not real? The bible suggest he's real too so..
And I really like to know what that evidence is.
Yes, and your evidence for holding such a belief is?
You have not provided any evidence that the bible is not factual.
I do not need to. In a debate, as an opposition, my role is only to rebut your arguments with criticisms. Whether or not I would like to put forth any positive arguments would be done at my own discretion. But since you are dying to know what my view is, let me just raise a few questions:
1. Did Adam and Eve exist?
2. How did Noah fit all the animals in an Ark?
etc.
Yeah, call me when you have proof that there is no possibility that my God doesn't exist. Suggesting he is not real? The bible suggest he's real too so..
Simple. I have already said it - the fact that there is no evidence that God exists suggests that he very probably doesn't. And this argument does not work both ways for the burden of proof lies on the claimant who made the initial positive claim.
Yes, and your evidence for holding such a belief is?
I do not need to. In a debate, as an opposition, my role is only to rebut your arguments with criticisms. Whether or not I would like to put forth any positive arguments would be done at my own discretion. But since you are dying to know what my view is, let me just raise a few questions:
1. Did Adam and Eve exist?
2. How did Noah fit all the animals in an Ark?
Well, this is not paradise, so as long as you can't find any proof that your beliefs are real, don't ask me to prove my own.
1. Yes Adam and Eve existed.
But remember, Adam and Eve were the first people God created, Not the only ones.
Atheists want evidence and explanations, because it is the only valid basis for accepting anything. You use toothpaste, because it is proven that it keeps your teeth healthy and the vast majority have experienced that. All of the things you have ever done and used were tested by you the first time you did them. You use and do the things that worked still, and the things that didn't have the expected result are not used. With this said, I do not know why everything else in this world you utilize has been tested and used accordingly, yet you mindlessly accept God as a theory of existence when there is no proof or reason to believe it.
For that reason, the atheist should test God's existence, spiritually. They should tap into the most innocent, sacred, furthest points of their heart, and seek that which confuses and frustrates them more than anything else. For if God's existence did not boggle the atheist so much, they would not even bother to question, challenge, or even discuss God's existence -- the nonexistence of God would be absolute. Someone will read this and be blessed!
I believe in Christianity because I find that belief that atheism can be dangerous for people. Atheism causes a void in people in which they have no fixed moral code to live by.
And at the end of the day, I would rather have spent my life believing in God and find out there isn't one, than to spend my life not believing in God to die and find out he exists.
Well that's the thing. The God of Christianity isn't the only god that is worshiped. I mean sure, there could be a god, but what if it's not your god? What if the Olympian gods do exist?
Just so you know, this argument is particularly susceptible to Atheist objections. A noteworthy feature of Pascal's wager is its indifference to the objective existence of God: the wager isn't intended to convince people that God exists, but that they should believe God exists because it is in their best interest. Can that belief solely for the sake of avoiding negative consequences really be called belief?
It also creates a false dichotomy: either there is a God, specifically the Christian God who offers rewards for those who believe, or there are no gods at all. But why should this single, narrow concept of a god be the only one considered? Pascal's wager fails to account for other gods and other religions. Islam has a system of rewards and consequences similar to that of Christianity. So wouldn't it be in your best interest to become a Muslim, just to be safe? And wouldn't it be even safer to believe in every god, to ensure that there's no chance of exposing yourself to the consequences of nonbelief? But what about those gods that demand you only believe in them, to the exclusion of all others? Do you believe in one of them, and jeopardize your chances with the rest of the gods? And if so, how do you choose which one to believe in?
First off, there is no scientific evidence against the existence of God. There is scientific evidence of things once claimed God's province, that ours is increasingly considered a "god of the gaps." That conception implies, though, that knowledge can be completed and that, as more questions about the nature of reality are answered, more, less-easily answered questions won't take their place. Potential questions about the universe are infinite, and only infinitude itself can answer them.
You're right. There is no scientific evidence against it.
If fossils didn't exist, we wouldn't know dinosaurs existed.
However, we know dinosaurs exist because of fossils.
That is evidence.
What evidence is there of God? God is a feeling in your heart, isn't it?
It is that feeling that there is a higher power. Yet, why?
Tell me why there is a god. Is it just for the big bang? Or only creation? Those can both be explained without a god.
Why add a god when there is a working explanation without one?
Is it because of Jesus? You cannot know he died for us. Even if he did exist, you can't know that his suffering meant salvation.
Why does it only save you if you believe? Why can't Jesus say "All mankind is guaranteed to enjoy heaven, even heathens, even murderers, they are all human, no matter their mistake. They will learn through knowledge in Heaven, not pain for all eternity. God himself will take each sinner and educate them using kindness and love and compassion."
However, Jesus did not say that. No matter how nice that would be, that is not how it happened in the Bible.
The Bible's God in the Old Testament is violent and angry, for he is based on a pagan god of war.
Why?
Why is your god based on previous mythology?
What happened for the several billion years before mankind existed?
Without mythology, without the Bible or pagan myths, before cro-magnons had their primitive burial rituals, not to Yahweh, but to a god that is now unknown, how did Yahweh exist?
Christianity is not how the world works, or everyone would be Christian, prayer would work, children would not die and Christians wouldn't be so easily defeated in debates.
Why does your logic not add up? Why do you think I am atheist?
Can you really defend your position without saying "I believe because I believe"?
You need to think about it. You need to realize the Bible was written by humans, edited by humans, parts deleted by humans, parts added by humans, and then advertised and used as a tool to control people by humans.
Im spiritual, becuase if anything has taught us anything, its spiritual truths, without shamans, we would not be where we are today (which would probably be in a worse setting) and spirituality can back up its claims and you can test them yourself. It takes a lot of practice and focus, but its the most proof you will ever receive, direct experience beats out all books, and all "historical facts" that we have learned about our past