#1 |
#2 |
#3 |
Paste this URL into an email or IM: |
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
|
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
|
Would you consider Graffiti artistic expression thus making it an art form?
Please be explain your stance on the matter.
Yes
Side Score: 20
|
No
Side Score: 17
|
|
2
points
1
point
2
points
Graffiti certainly can be an art form. This question is too sweeping. Some graffiti is simple vandalism. Art is intended. Even the scrawling of a profanity, done artistically, could be an artist exploring lettering, shapes, line quality and how they might be used expressively, even if the subject matter and placement are poorly chosen. I don't think that legality is a concern when judging artistic expression. Banksy has obviously elevated graffiti to art and caused us to question what art is in the same way that Warhol did with Pop art. Side: Yes
1
point
1
point
1
point
|
1
point
While I admit that there are a handful of instances where graffiti can be considered artistic, by and large graffiti is not an art form. If we're to accept a crazily scrawled "Motherfucker" on a bridge embankment as art, don't we also need to accept the same thing scrawled on the wall of a bathroom stall in feces? Side: No
1
point
by and large graffiti is not an art form. Graffiti fits the definition of "art". Art: the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power. Graffiti: writing or drawings scribbled, scratched, or sprayed illicitly on a wall or other surface in a public place. Now writing may not fit the definition, unless the words are done artistically. don't we also need to accept the same thing scrawled on the wall of a bathroom stall in feces? Yes. Side: Yes
1
point
1
point
0
points
Where are you getting your definition of graffiti? You're leaving out an important part- the fact that it is illicit, illegal, not consented to by the property owner. I also have to contest that graffitiy meets that definition of art either. Most graffiti doesn't pass muster of creative skill and imagination, for example- spray painting your name, the name of a gang, or "Motherfucker" isn't creative or imaginative in any way. Furthermore, it doesn't pass muster in regards to being appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power. The overwhelming majority of graffitiy is just that- writing, and not done in a particularly interesting or artistic way either. As such, I have to dispute that graffiti can be classified as an art form. SOME graffiti is art, but those would be classified into an existing art form, eg. painting. You have not made an argument for the classification of graffiti as an art form, all you've done is noted that some forms of graffiti could be classified as art- which I already allowed for. So despite clicking 'dispute' you have not in fact disputed my claim, so I'll have to downvote you. I KNOW you aren't seriously argueing that we should consider someone writing "Motherfucker" on a bathroom stall wall in feces as art, and you're just trolling me with that bit. Right? Side: No
2
points
You're leaving out an important part- the fact that it is illicit, illegal, not consented to by the property owner. Okay? What does that have to do with it being art or not? Most graffiti doesn't pass muster of creative skill and imagination True. Same for paintings though. Every painting isn't "cool" or emotionally impacting. Same with music. Or sculptures. Furthermore, it doesn't pass muster in regards to being appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power. Some people actually appreciate it. Its subjective in this sense. Still, people do like graffiti and catch the emotional power of it. The overwhelming majority of graffitiy is just that- writing, and not done in a particularly interesting or artistic way either. Yeah, it kinda varies. Some writing is just "text". Some writing is donw artistically. SOME graffiti is art, but those would be classified into an existing art form, eg. painting. I disagree. I think you have it backwards. Let's say Picasso was alive and decided to paint something on your house. Is it art? Graffiti? Vandalism? I say it is art in the form of graffiti. Of course I will say it is vandalism, but I see it as art in the form of graffiti. So despite clicking 'dispute' you have not in fact disputed my claim, so I'll have to downvote you. Cool? I KNOW you aren't seriously argueing that we should consider someone writing "Motherfucker" on a bathroom stall wall in feces as art, and you're just trolling me with that bit. Right? No. If I take my poop and make a nice image of Justin Beiber then I would say it's art in the form of public defacation. If I spray paint a moose on the side of your house I will say that it is art in the form of graffiti which is illegal. Side: Yes
1
point
The illegality of it doesn't directly affect whether or not a specific example could be considered art- however, a significant portion of examples that are pointed to as examples of artistic graffiti were not in fact graffiti; that's what I was getting at. Paintings in general, even ones that we don't particularly care for, are still a form of art. It doesn't require unanimous or even popular support to be classified as such. That aside, words on a wall do not constitute art, except maybe in some cases where it's done particularly well. Even then, it wouldn't be artistic graffiti, but rather calligraphy on a wall. For graffiti to be classified as an art form, it would need to be consistently artistic, and not overlap existing art forms. A wall mural is a painting on a canvas. In your Picasso example, it would be graffiti and vandalism, but it may also well be art- in the form of a painting. That's the issue I have here. I can't call graffiti an art form because the overwhelming majority of it is simply not art by any stretch of the imagination. The few cases that can be considered art already have categories they fall under. There is no case for establishing graffiti as an art form- as I said, individual cases may be art, but that does not make graffiti in general an art form. I'm going to have to contest the idea of fecal 'art' in general also. Side: No
1
point
Paintings in general, even ones that we don't particularly care for, are still a form of art. So because the paint comes from a can it's no longer art? Even then, it wouldn't be artistic graffiti, but rather calligraphy on a wall. Yet if I paint it on paper it's art? That crazy. It's pretty much the same. One from a brush and one from a can. One may suck and another may look great. For graffiti to be classified as an art form, it would need to be consistently artistic, and not overlap existing art forms I say it is art in the form of graffiti. Same way my example was art in the form of painting. Determining what is artistic is subjective. I can make a horrible painting, but it's still art. Artists make terrible music. It's still art. Some people make ugly sculptures. I still say it's art. but it may also well be art- in the form of a painting. Of course. It's just illegal painting. You are still using paint in both examples. One from a brush and one from a can. I can't call graffiti an art form because the overwhelming majority of it is simply not art by any stretch of the imagination. What? I am sure that there are many more "failed" paintings than successful ones. I am sure that there are more "poor quality" songs than successful ones. I am sure that this is applicable to any form of art. We only hear of the succesful ones in history. What about all the failed ones? The "wannabe" Mona LIsa paintings? The failed creations are still are. Simply saying that the mass quantity of poor graffiti means it isn't art isn't logical. It on public display you have to see it. A normal painting can be hidden or destroyed. A failed song will never be aired. These failed creations are still art. The few cases that can be considered art already have categories they fall under. Well here is a new category. An illegal painting on someone else's property. Now graffiti has a place. I'm going to have to contest the idea of fecal 'art' in general also. Just because it's poop? I don't think you can. Side: Yes
1
point
You misunderstand me entirely, and fail to address anything I've said. "So because the paint comes from a can it's no longer art?" No. If it's done artistically, it is art- a painting, using a wall as a medium. Painting on canvas vs. painting on paper are not different forms of art, they are different mediums for the same art form. Graffiti itself is not an art form, but can be a medium for painting and calligraphy. There simply is no compelling case I've yet to hear for considering graffiti to be an art form. I can surely contest the idea of fecal art just because it's poop- I may not have an objective case for it, and I may well be objectively wrong, but I sure as hell can contest it :P If you must insist that graffiti is an art form, please present a case as to why it should be considered an art form unto itself, rather than just a medium for existing art forms. Side: No
1
point
You misunderstand me entirely, and fail to address anything I've said. That is a good way to dodge a bullet. No. If it's done artistically, it is art Prue-school finger painting. I would even call that an art. Some graffiti is just words. I get that. However once it can grasp the eyes of ones subjective preference I am calling it art. Graffiti itself is not an art form Why? You're painting. It's just illegal. You never explain why it isn't. Graffiti is just street art. Art in the form of graffiti. By your logic a bad song is not music. A bad bust of Obama is not a bust. I disagree with that. You seem to has a biased viewpoint towards graffiti. I believe you said it's just calligraphy, but even that is art. Art in the form of calligraphy. Graffiti is art. People dislike it because it's illegal. If it was my house and I decided to graffiti my house people would admire it. If it's on a local bank it's opposed. There simply is no compelling case I've yet to hear for considering graffiti to be an art form. Calligraphy is art. Graffiti is art. Art in the form of graffiti which can be done calligraphically or done with an image. I can surely contest the idea of fecal art just because it's poop That is biased. You simply won't call it art just because of what it is composed of. What if I make a flute out of solidified poop? Is in not an instrument? If you must insist that graffiti is an art form, please present a case as to why it should be considered an art form unto itself, rather than just a medium for existing art forms. Well, it consists of the same materials as painting. The only difference is that it's illegal. That gives itself a new category. Also you are using cans instead of a brush. It's like rap. How come it isn't just poetry? Well it has slight differences yet it is derived from poetry. It just follows a beat. Side: Yes
1
point
You're right that refusing to address my points was a good way to dodge a bullet, but your doing so is dragging this out to the point of it being irritating now. The statement "Graffiti is not art." does not imply that no graffiti is art. Saying graffiti is art carries the implication that all graffiti is art. The fact that some graffiti can be considered art does not make all graffiti art, and nothing you've said justifies considering graffiti another art form. I can only reiterate that you are misunderstanding me- 'a bad song is not music' and 'a bad bust of Obama is not a bust' absolutely do not follow from what I've said. Yes, Calligraphy is art. Painting is art. Painting and calligraphy are art forms. Canvas, paper, paint brushes, pens, cans of paint, etc are mediums. Graffiti is NOT an art form. Graffiti can be art, but where it is art, it is Painting and/or calligraphy using a wall or a This debate is not about whether graffiti is art or not; I've acknowledged multiple times that it can be art. This debate is about whether graffiti can be considered an art form, and it cannot- it can only be considered a different medium for existing art forms. The fact that it uses a wall and a can are insufficient to differentiate it, as I've already explained. The fact that it is illegal is insufficient to differentiate it- literary works are a form of art, and illegal literary works (in places and times where such can be illegal) are not a separate art form. By your own words regarding graffiti as art: "You're painting." Painting is the art form- a spray can and a wall are your mediums for the art form. Replace painting with Calligraphy for written words. Graffiti brings nothing new to the table as an art form to differentiate it from the others, it's just another medium. You keep coming back to the suggestion that I don't believe that graffiti is art, and you imply I have a bias against it. I don't. I object to it being classified as it's own art form when it isn't. I do have a bias against fecal art, which I was pretty blatant about as well; going along those lines, if you make a flute out of solidified poop, it is an instrument, but when you start playing that you are not making music, you are making German porn. Side: No
1
point
You're right that refusing to address my points was a good way to dodge a bullet, but your doing so is dragging this out to the point of it being irritating now. That sucks. I can't help you there. The fact that some graffiti can be considered art does not make all graffiti art Why? What makes it "not art"? I can only reiterate that you are misunderstanding me- 'a bad song is not music' and 'a bad bust of Obama is not a bust' absolutely do not follow from what I've said. You're right. It follows what you typed. Graffiti is NOT an art form. Why? You have not given my a reason as to why it isn't. I habe already stated that even in it's poorest quality it is still art. The same way an terrible songs is art. It is art in the form of graffiti which is why is has coined the term "street art". This debate is about whether graffiti can be considered an art form, and it cannot- it can only be considered a different medium for existing art forms. I am aware. However I disagree that it is not an art form. It is derived from painting. It is a subset of painting. It involves its illegality and placement to create its placement of definition. The fact that it uses a wall and a can are insufficient to differentiate it, as I've already explained. The fact that it is illegal is insufficient to differentiate it Just because you explain it doesn't make you correct. You have to admit, you are in the wrong here. It is like a genre. The fact that it involves a wall and a spray can and that it's illegal gives itself a new definition. If painting is an art form and calligraphy is an art form then the combination of the two logically results in it being an art form. You keep coming back to the suggestion that I don't believe that graffiti is art, and you imply I have a bias against it. I don't Well, you are not doing a great job at showing that. I do have a bias against fecal art Then there is no point of me debating with you about. You would be oncorrect in that instance any how. Side: Yes
1
point
As stated, most graffiti does not constitute art because it fails to pass muster in terms of creative effort, imagination, and emotional aspect. All of these are needed. A creative, imaginative effort that fails to have any emotional impact is not art. Something with an emotional impact that lacks creativity is also not art. Much graffiti falls under one of these categories. Your assertion of placement as an aspect of those instances of graffiti that can be considered art is the first valid point you've made in that, but I still feel that that is insufficient to classify graffiti itself as an art form. We may simply just have to disagree on that. No, I don't have to admit to being in the wrong here. Your use of the term 'genre' is actually quite fitting here; music, literature, and paintings are forms of art. Rock, country, and ska are genres within the musical art form. Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Horror are genres within the literature art form. Impressionism and Surrealism are forms of painting that could be called genres, though they aren't generally referred to as such. Within music, the medium varies based on the instruments used, among other things. In literature, the medium can range from something being handwritten on paper, to being presented electronically. Within painting, the medium can be a canvass, a piece of paper, the hull of a ship, or the wall of a building. So we have an obvious hierarchy of an art form itself, various genres within each art form, and various mediums through which the art form can be expressed. From that, it follows that graffiti could be considered a medium for either calligraphy or painting- and with the idea of placement, you could even make arguments for it being a genre, but it simply doesn't fit as it's own art form; can you refute that? I've been pretty clear, in my opinion, of where I stand- that graffiti can be art, but that graffiti itself does not constitute an art form. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm specifically biased against graffiti, nor can I work out where you're getting the idea that the subjective quality of a work determines whether it is classified as art or not. The cynicist in me wants to say you're intentionally conflating the issues to try and 'win' the argument, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just misunderstanding me. There really is not point in debating fecal art with me, even if I were to personally give it merit, it's not something I find to be a tasteful subject for discussion. Also, I am correct about the fecal art deal, and you are the one who is oncorrect! Side: No
1
point
As stated, most graffiti does not constitute art because it fails to pass muster in terms of creative effort, imagination, and emotional aspect. Your requirements are too subjective. With that logic lots of art won't be art in your standards. Creative effort? Isn't that the point of spray painting? The cognitive process that gives effort from creativity is present. Imagination? How can you even spray paint if you can't conceptualize what it looks like? Emotional effort? All things are technically done with emotional effort unless done by machince. Regardless of the emotion felt or currently present. I don't agree with your systematics here. All of these are needed All of them already happen. You need to find a relative objective definition. My definition is more objective than yours. A creative, imaginative effort that fails to have any emotional impact is not art. I disagree. Either it doesn't appeal to you or the person has done a poor job. It still counts as art. It just sucks. Something with an emotional impact that lacks creativity is also not art. That is too subjective. What would we define as creative? Somethings may be creative to only a small group of people and thus qualifies are creative. All art is creative. All work is creative since it requires a cognitive process. A red dot on a black piece of paper can be seen as creative since ot can be perceived in many ways. Your definition is too subjective. Much graffiti falls under one of these categories. Graffiti falls under it all. A poor painting even falls under it all. You cannot objectify what is set towards the subjective. Your assertion of placement as an aspect of those instances of graffiti that can be considered art is the first valid point you've made in that, but I still feel that that is insufficient to classify graffiti itself as an art form. We may simply just have to disagree on that. My assertion is objective. It stands by what is realistic and measurable to all. Illegal paintings on someone else's property. No, I don't have to admit to being in the wrong here. Your use of the term 'genre' is actually quite fitting here; music, literature, and paintings are forms of art. Rock, country, and ska are genres within the musical art form. Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Horror are genres within the literature art form. Impressionism and Surrealism are forms of painting that could be called genres, though they aren't generally referred to as such. Within music, the medium varies based on the instruments used, among other things. In literature, the medium can range from something being handwritten on paper, to being presented electronically. Within painting, the medium can be a canvass, a piece of paper, the hull of a ship, or the wall of a building. Now you are just supporting my argument. From that, it follows that graffiti could be considered a medium for either calligraphy or painting You still don't get it do you? Graffiti is to art as electro is to music. It is it's own form of art. An illegal painting on someone else's property is art in the form of graffiti. An image on a canvas consisting of paint of other materials is art in the form of a painting. but it simply doesn't fit as it's own art form; I have already explained why it is. I've been pretty clear, in my opinion, of where I stand- that graffiti can be art, but that graffiti itself does not constitute an art form. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm specifically biased against graffiti, nor can I work out where you're getting the idea that the subjective quality of a work determines whether it is classified as art or not. Not really. I have explained above. There really is not point in debating fecal art with me, even if I were to personally give it merit, it's not something I find to be a tasteful subject for discussion. Also, I am correct about the fecal art deal, and you are the one who is oncorrect! No. Just no. Side: Yes
1
point
Could you provide some examples of art that would not be considered art under those requirements? And remember, those are not in fact my requirements, but your own words that I reiterated. You're doing a pretty good job of defeating your own arguments. The point of spray painting isn't always to create, it is often to deface or destroy. Sometimes it is for it's own sake. Neither of those involve creativity, merely action. You're using an overly objective definition of creation- remember, art is by necessity subjective, so your overemphasis on objectivity is misplaced. Extend it to writing, for example. If you simply write the word 'cheese' you have, technically speaking, created a piece of paper with the word cheese on it. But that doesn't make it a creative effort. If you were to stylize the wording somewhat, you may have something creative, but this is rarely the case. A few scrawled words do not constitute art- please refute my points rather than dissembling. You again misinterpret my statement. From "A creative, imaginative effort that fails to have any emotional impact is not art" you counter with "Either it doesn't appeal to you or the person has done a poor job." I didn't say 'no emotional impact for me' but rather 'no emotional impact.' Although cases of zero emotional impact are rather rare with graffiti, given that it tends to cause amger, so I'll drop that point at least. Your definition of creativity is not only overly objective, but flatout wrong- The use of cognitive processes do not imply creativity. Mathematics, for example, involves a cognitive process, but you aren't creating anything by showing 2+2=4. My statement does not support your argument for graffiti being considered an art form- It supports my argument for classifying it as a medium for existing art forms. Read it again. "Graffiti is to art as electro is to music" is wrong. "Graffiti is to painting as electro is to music" would be more accurate. It is not it's own form of art, it is a medium through which several forms of art can be expressed. It is not in and of itself an art form. You have not explained anything that would classify it as its own art form- only further reinforced the idea that it is a potential medium for existing art forms. Read your own statements again. And you're still wrong about fecal art. Side: No
1
point
Could you provide some examples of art that would not be considered art under those requirements? Why? And remember, those are not in fact my requirements, but your own words that I reiterated. These are you words not my own. These are your requirements. I gave my definition. So in what way are you revoicing my argument? The point of spray painting isn't always to create, it is often to deface or destroy. By covering it up with paint which is creating something. Even if it's a dot. You still created a dot. Neither of those involve creativity, merely action. I disagree. It inherently is creative. You are painting it. You are adding to what already exists. If there was no creative thought process the person wouldn't know what to do. You're using an overly objective definition of creation- remember, art is by necessity subjective, so your overemphasis on objectivity is misplaced. Not true. My definition fits fine. In fact it defines the subset of the action itself. The connotation given away through it's visual appeal is what is subjective. The definition is constant. Same goes for morality. What is truly bad or good? In order to do that bad and good must have a consistent definition. If you simply write the word 'cheese' you have, technically speaking, created a piece of paper with the word cheese on it I'd say that is creative. How is this person writing the word? Thick lines? Skinny lines? Wavy? But that doesn't make it a creative effort. I disagree. It takes some creativity to write that word. Again, how did the person write it? A few scrawled words do not constitute art- please refute my points rather than dissembling. Why ask such a useless question if your points are being knocked down? What is there to dispute with you? so I'll drop that point at least. Good. Glad you see how loose it was. Your definition of creativity is not only overly objective, but flatout wrong Mmm no. My definition was only for art. You are attempting to make it universal. The use of cognitive processes do not imply creativity. Mathematics, for example, involves a cognitive process, but you aren't creating anything by showing 2+2=4. My definition was suited for art. Not math. You should be able to tell. This whole thing we have going here is about art. My statement does not support your argument for graffiti being considered an art form I am sure it did. It totes did. You even realized the genre example I gave you as valid. Then you tried to wiggle out of it. It supports my argument for classifying it as a medium for existing art forms. Read it again. No. I have read enough. Graffiti is to art as electro is to music" is wrong. "Graffiti is to painting as electro is to music" would be more accurate. Now we are just debating opinion. Electro is to music since it is a genre type of music. Graffiti is to art since it is sub form of art. Another outlet. It is not in and of itself an art form. You have not explained anything that would classify it as its own art form- only further reinforced the idea that it is a potential medium for existing art forms. Read your own statements again. Why would you tell me to read my arguments again as if you wrote them? You barely under stand it's purpose. I have already explained why it is. You just don't see it. Or refuse to. And you're still wrong about fecal art. No. Side: Yes
1
point
You are asserting that under my logic, some things that are art would not be considered such. I am challenging that assertion and requesting examples. My words, and not your own? And I quote, from your first dispute, if you'll scroll up: "Art: the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power." I reworded them slightly, true, because as written it doesn't fit well into the flow of the sentence. Nevertheless, it was a definition that you yourself provided, as is evident to myself, you, and anyone else who bothers to follow this exchange. Can't you even keep track of your own position? We'll simply have to disagree on creativity. Evidently you set the bar extremely low for what constitutes creativity, and so it would make sense that your bar for what constitutes art would be just as low; your penchant for fecal art would seem to suggest so, no? I was asking what is generally referred to as a rhetorical question, in light of some statements that I expected would be self evident. Having a better understanding of your definitions of art and creativity, I realize now that they were flawed, so my apologies. You can introduce qualifiers after the fact all you want, but that's a case of moving the goalposts; I won't debate further with someone who repeatedly does this. I would advise you to do some study on debate in general; you obviously have a pretty poor grasp of it. As I said, I'm not debating with you further, but I still stand by the following things: 1) Graffiti can be a medium for art, but is not an art form unto itself. 2) You have no concept of how to debate properly and need to do some studies in that regard. 3) You remain wrong about fecal art. 4) You're wrong in your forthcoming reply, too- I'd stake good money on it. I'm out. Side: No
1
point
"I also have to contest that graffitiy meets that definition of art either. Most graffiti doesn't pass muster of creative skill and imagination, for example- spray painting your name, the name of a gang, or "Motherfucker" isn't creative or imaginative in any way. Furthermore, it doesn't pass muster in regards to being appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power." A profane word can easily be written with artistic quality or in an imaginative way. I would also argue that spray painting 'motherfucker' on a wall could very will have an emotional impact on people. Beauty is up to the individual. A well placed profanity may indeed be beautiful to many. Side: Yes
1
point
I've already conceded that words, profane or otherwise, CAN be presented artistically. By and large though, they aren't, and cases where they are are exceptions to the norm. For graffiti to be considered an art form, it would need to have something compelling to differentiate it from existing art forms. Artistically written words already fall under calligraphy, and murals fall under paintings. Even where 'motherfucker' has emotional impact, how often have you seen it written in any kind of artistic way? I don't like it, but I could concede that an artistically written and strategically placed interest of the word might qualify as art. But I was just offering that as an example. The debate is about whether graffiti itself can be considered an art form, and I don't believe it can. I would be willing to accept graffiti as a MEDIUM for several forms of art, but not as an artform unto itself. Side: No
|