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Satan is real ... and he wins when we are ignorant of his devices. Infact, he is working very hard to win many people over to his side because he knows that his time is limited. Check your Bible.
The minimum argument length is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.
I cannot see heaven and hell ... they are not tangible like a car or a house where I can show them to you. They are spiritual. Obviously, spiritual things cannot be seen with our physical eyes unless God wants to reveal them to a person. He allows him/her to see those spiritual things. He has shown those things to many people, infact ... and although we don't see them ourselves, we have faith and we believe their report. They are all in the Bible.
I cannot see heaven and hell ... they are not tangible like a car or a house where I can show them to you. They are spiritual.
Then you cannot prove them beyond a reasonable doubt and certainly cannot make the claim that they exist with 100% certainty.
Obviously, spiritual things cannot be seen with our physical eyes unless God wants to reveal them to a person.
We cant see hydrogen but we know it exists. We have ways of detecting things we cant even sense. So how come we have absolutely no way of even detecting heaven or hell? It only points more towards the fact that theyre made up.
He allows him/her to see those spiritual things. He has shown those things to many people, infact ... and although we don't see them ourselves, we have faith and we believe their report They are all in the Bible.
And i dont think that the personal experiences of ANYBODY let alone 2000 year old illiterate sheep herders are very trustworthy people to base absolute faith off of. If you showed an ipad to a person from 1789 what would they do? They would probably throw a fit in amazement and then anger at the witchcraft youve performed. then he would go to his fellow people and rile them up with stories of a demon tablet from hell and theyd tie you to a stake and kill you. Now what do you think a 2000 year old sheep herder would do if he had an extremely vivid dream, or saw a tornado, or saw any kind of great natural occurance? He would fabricate every detail! He wouldnt understand it but he would try to make something up from local superstitions to support it.
Face it. Humans make things up. Especially those pre-science era. Theres a story from a newspaper the 1400s about a farmer in England who saw a snake in his garden. The story says that he found a 4 foot snake in his garden and then scared it away. But what was the picture to match it? It showed a farmer with a pitchfork fighting a 50ft tall serpent breathing fire. Why? Because it was more interesting? I dont know. But this is only one of thousands of examples of humans making things up either out of ignorance of the truth or for dramatic effect.
This all being said how can you possibly accept the writings from unknown authors from 2000 years ago as absolute FACTS? Many things in the bible have already been proven wrong or imbellished! Why should the main details be exempt from this?
The only conclusion I can give to everything you have nicely outlined here is ... "That is what Faith is all about ... believing something that we do not see ... for we live by faith, not by sight:)"
And that is illogical. You theists butter up the word faith making it seem not so bad and even noble. But you're not defining the word properly. Faith is belief in something without or in the face of evidence for the contrary. That is illogical and often foolish. And also the main reason why im not, and wont ever be religious.
I agree with Hellno, as misconceptions can severely damage relationships, cause you to lose your business, fail you in an exam and make you sound like a general dimwit.
If Satan wins when people stop believing in the Christian god, a lack of knowledge would be Satan's loss. As we gain more knowledge about reality, we learn both that the Bible doesn't represent truth and that a god is not only unneeded, but we have yet for find evidence of his existence.
Lack of knowledge is the Christian god's win, not Satan's.
"If Satan wins when people stop believing in the Christian god, a lack of knowledge would be Satan's loss."
... what you just stated up there (in other words) is that, if Satan wins when people lack knowledge (stop believing in a Christian god is the result of lack of knowledge, one has to lack knowledge in order to stop believing), a lack of knowledge would be Satan's loss ....
Didn't you just contradicted yourself? You said one thing in your first statement (before the coma) and then you said another thing again (after the coma).
Definitely a lack of knowledge is Satan's win, and not the other way around :)
what you just stated up there (in other words) is that, if Satan wins when people lack knowledge
I never said Satan wins when people lack knowledge, I said it's Satan's loss when people lack knowledge.
one has to lack knowledge in order to stop believing
False. Did we lose knowledge when we learned Zues doesn't throw lightning from Mt. Olympus? No, we learned that what we thought was knowledge was nothing more than a story to explain what we didn't understand.
As we gain knowledge about reality, what we accepted as true because we didn't have an explanation goes away, but that as never knowledge, so we lost nothing.
Please don't take my statements, put them in your words, add in your own opinion, and accuse me of contradicting myself.
"one has to lack knowledge in order to stop believing"
I am afraid you did not complete that statement. It has to read "one has to lack knowledge in order to stop believing in God" ... that was what I meant, and not the way you put it.
"I never said Satan wins when people lack knowledge, I said it's Satan's loss when people lack knowledge."
.... I said in other words, what you wrote earlier would have been read that way ... and then it would look like you are contradicting yourself.
You are asserting that "one has to lack knowledge in order to stop believing in God". I don't agree, and the only way I would be contradicting myself would be if I did agree.
You can't input your own opinion into my argument, then claim I'm contradicting myself.
When people gain knowledge about reality, they realize the knowledge they thought they had never existed because they were wrong. Whether it is Zues making lightning, or the Christian god making rainbows, believing something isn't the same as knowledge.
You have to value the knowledge. Not all knowledge has equal value. For instance, scientists have strong knowledge in all the disciplines of the scientific method and especially in their field of study. This knowledge is extremely valuable. However, then you have the guy whos read the Cat In The Hat 487 times and knows every thing there is to know about Dr. Seuss. Well that's knowledge too, but it has absolutely no value. It doesnt benefit anyone.
So when we get into religion, you have non-religious people who, statistically, have higher IQs on tests that test for science and math skills which is valuable knowledge. and then you have religious people who's "knowledge" is only of their religion or holy book which is most likely false and is only beneficial to the people of their religion. Its non-valuable knowledge.
So in the end you cant just say "oh you guys have knowledge A and we have knowledge B so ahaha were both smart" No. Because A does not equal B.
That would be great. Do take note of the correction I just made. It's actually in the Book of Hosea (Hosea 4:6 to be exact) and not the Book of Isaiah. My apologies :)
I value all knowledge... religion, science, phylosophy, business, etc. There is nothing bad about them. They are all good. We need these knowledge to help us get to where we want to be. I cannot deny that. Infact, I appreciate literature very much otherwise I wouldn't be where I am today. I read a lot of religious literature when I have free times.
Sure thats all fine and dandy. But im not talking about your opinion. im talking about what is valuable to society. Science, Math, and Reading/Writing are considered the 3 most important disciplines to be adept in to achieve a position that will benefit the advancement of our society. Religious knowledge is useless to anyone not in that religion, and it doesnt help really anything else. What does knowing John 3:16 do for society? Nothing. Does it advance science? No. Does it tell us anything new about the world around us? No. Its just words in a silly book.
What AveSatanas meant (and I agree with him) is that many people overlook simple biblical truths such as "showing compassion" for example. They lack that knowledge (plain ignorance) and as a result, they do not talk to people who have back slidden in their faith. They keep their distance and have nothing to do with them (those who have backslidden). In that sense, you can say that they are too religious.
I hope I am saying what you are thinking, AveSatanas?
I see. I would very much love to support your view but I am afraid I can't. The reason is because I have come across many uneducated, low IQ people who were some of the meekest people I have ever seen. Their love for GOD with their simple faith moved me to tears. And they were not even religious.
Non-religious people moving you to tears with the love of god? how does that make sense? And you only supported my hypothesis. Low IQ = belief in god/religion. You said: Low IQ people moved you to tears with Godly love.
Religious people are those who know too much of the Bible and yet do not live it, like the pharisees and the saducees. I don't know what you mean by your view of "being religious". Please clarify.
Alright, I'll say there is a difference of understanding the term "religious" here. Mine is more into identifying with people like the pharisees and saducees as being "religious".
: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
2
: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances
3
a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful
There is no different interpretations of the word. Only one definition. yours is wrong
And the pharisees and saducees are irrelivant to any other religions and the ones that came before christianity. There were religious people long before them so you cant use them as a difining example of a word that originated before them.
Assuming Satan exists, just not knowing isn't likely to destroy you. Wasn't their a bible quote that said "The meek shall inherit the earth" if anything it would be the other way around. Yet to the purpose of Satan winning over anyone, I think it's less a lack of knowledge, and more a lack of will.
There is a big difference between being meek and being ignorant. The Bible is for the meek but against ignorance.
Now, when it comes to comparison of the level of knowledge between the two, the meek simply obey if they know it is the right thing to do. Even if they know so much, they can easily let go of what they have been holding on and obey what they discover is true knowledge. That is not "lack of knowledge" and that is also more of their will. I believe the Bible identify people like these as meek.
Ignorant people on the other hand are those who know something to be true but choose (again more of their will) not to obey it. They are full of knowledge and they cannot let that knowledge go easily inorder to cling to the truth (true knowledge that can set them free). It's impossible for them to do that. I believe the Bible calls these people as ignorant people.
It is this ignorance that Satan capitalizes on to keep one in the dark so long as that person is still ignorant of the true knowledge. That's how he wins ... by keeping one person in the dark so that he/she does not know the truth and come to light inorder to be free.
Satan is the reason for all knowledge according to the "good" book. God created the tree of wisdom and wouldn't let humans partake in its fruit. Satan came along and convinced Eve to eat. All knowledge is Satan's win.
True knowledge is "obeying what God says ... His Word". Eve disobeyed God's Word (the instruction He gave to Adam which Adam gave to her). Hence Satan won after tempting Eve.
If Eve had listened to God, there would be no knowledge. Obedience to God is a must. Being disobedient gets you knowledge, therefore lack of knowledge is God's win.
No. Obedience to God is the True Knowledge. When you obey God, you obtain knowledge, wisdom, understanding, insight ... and all those wonderful gifts from God to help you live a good, successful life :)
The dumb doesn't stop. Obedience and knowledge are different. I agree that disobedience is Satan's win.
When you obey God, you obtain knowledge, wisdom, understanding, insight ... and all those wonderful gifts from God to help you live a good, successful life :)
Unless the knowledge comes from the tree of knowledge.
I told you before that you are wrong, and you don't listen. Why should I listen to you? You can't change what the word means and expect people to play along with you.