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christians are persecuted?
http://www.businessinsider.com/17-big-companies-that-are-intensely-religious-2012-1?op=1%2F#ixzz1lWltJgwV http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=10840&MediaType=1&Category=26 christians are persecuted?
Nigh every group is in some way persecuted. As long as there is any sort of difference between two individuals, then those differences shall be brought to the forefront; religious differences, though, tend to inflame people.
Back in the early '90s in Norway the black metal scene (and people think rappers lead a life of crime!) was responsible for dozens of arson attacks on churches. In China, where religion is highly controlled, one can easily be jailed for expressing Christian sentiments; India, too, has seen an outbreak of anti-Christian violence as of late. Then there are the principally Islamic nations wherein Christians are routinely imprisoned.
No, that was just a link I happened upon to add a little more credence to my argument, at least to the minds of some. However, I find your incessant and unsubstantiated criticisms of nigh everything you dislike to be stupid in the extreme. I should imagine your brain to be so deadened by all the alcohol you intake (at least, I hope that's the reason, for your sake) that you are psychically incapable of writing anything of greater utility than that which you wrote above. Just to be thorough, I shall counter each point individually, wouldn't want that li'l brain of yours to have to think too much, now would we?
... really?
What exactly are you disputing? My claim about the Norwegian black metal scene in the '90s, or is it the claim about China's grip on the religious beliefs of its subjects? Maybe it's the link that you don't like!?
That's the kind of source your rely on for info?
As I said earlier, no, it is not. My sources are far too varied for me to aggregate here, which is why I chose the first page I got from Google (aside from wikipedia) to supply here. It seemed legit enough, that part through which I looked.
Explains a lot I suppose.
Is this a criticism going back to our previous encounters, those in which you made a fool out of yourself countless times by insulting, never substantiating? Perhaps you are questioning the integrity of my comment above - something you only seem to do when the comment is in opposition to your views - in which case, prove it. I provided a source, now try to at the very least make a coherent argument without resorting to those fallacies and insults which you know you need in order to sound like you've IQ points.
Sure every group is persecuted to some extent, but i'm looking for systematic and persuasive persecution. Except in some collapse Leninist states of old and Islamic states, Christians dominate and output a lot of pressure to conform. This pressure isn't only non-violent and numerous examples of religiously motivated violence from all groups can be found. As the dominate religion, quite a few examples of violence and threats of violence can be found. It is a systematic feature of western society for Christians to pressure others to conform, at times with threats of bodily harm or material lost. It is not a systematic feature for minority groups to do the same. Most atheists just want religion out of government and to be seen as people. Most wiccans and neo-pagans are solitary, and I have found the Muslims of my area to be awesomely non-pressuring.
You created the debate, so you should realize that the title explicitly states that the debate is about Christians being persecuted, without even a reference to Christians persecuting others.
It is not a systematic feature for minority groups to do the same.
Of course, they're outnumbered. Now let's send a bunch of Christians to a predominately, say, atheistic country, enough so that they are a minority about the size of the atheist population compared to the Christian population of America - do you really think that they would not be persecuted in any way?
That is a good site! I am glad you put that as your supporting evidence. I use that website everyday to find out where Christians are being persecuted.
That is the point, most Christians have to look for where Christians are being persecuted. Where as the great majority of them are involved in persecution elsewhere.
Yes, i believe that they are persecuted but not in the way most people see. We are not baing killed but we are silently being killed from the inside out by having rights taken away.
Everyday Christians are being persecuted because of there belief. In many different countries where you are only allowed a specific religion they persecute Christians. Its happening everyday. The reason why is because when Jesus was on this earth He was persecuted and so then we will be persecuted because of HIm.
I think the structure of this debate is a form of psychological persecution in of itself. One does not have to be either a persecutor or the persecuted. I think the wrong questions and examples are being made of the Christian faith. An examination of the principles of a faith are far more telling than the followers. No person is perfect, that is something universally accepted. The Bible specifically acknowledges this and actually states "Pray for those who persecute you." It is true that the persecution of Chistians occurs every day, everywhere (many are afraid to express their oppinions in public because of the riddicule they recieve from it). Solid truth of it is, every group persecutes and every group is persecuted... The question is: does the belief system in question ASK someone to persecute another. In Christianity, it is not the case. Therefore, YES some Christians are persecuted, some persecute, and none of them should. Try to be forgiving. Note: I am a Christian. Please ask any question you may have, but please do not assign a black and white image to people- it is not so. I believe there are a great many things that are black and white but no person, and certainly no group of people can be judged good or evil by a record of their actions- or we would all be wholely evil.
While atheists and liberals are whining how persecuted they are because a parliament of a state - PLAYING BY THE RULES OF DEMOCRACY _ refused gay marriage, or something, Christians are being slaughtered in Nigeria, bombed in Irak, persecuted in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and other countries, etc etc
It should be remembered that atheists are also being slaughtered in nigeria, bombed in irak, persecuted in pakistan and saudi arabia and other countries,...including the western ones.
... if Christians are being ill-treated, have no doubt that atheists are as well and often have it worse.
If Christians face persecution for their faith, it is often due to an alternative religion having state power, and they tend to view atheism as worse than other religions.
This argument is irrelevant and quite restrictive to the US. Some Christians (often in North America) are opposed to the marriage of two homosexuals, and therefore either Christians are not persecuted or any persecution Christians may suffer doesn't matter? There is a grand difference betwixt being opposed (free of violence, most often) to something on principle and killing people because they are of a religion to which you stand in opposition.
There is a grand difference betwixt being opposed (free of violence, most often) to something on principle
Don't downplay it to aid your weak argument. It is the deliberate forcing of one's distorted personal beliefs onto others, suppressing their rights and freedoms.
and killing people because they are of a religion to which you stand in opposition.
Is that what persecution is defined as?!
Let's see:
persecution (n): hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious beliefs
I hate it when people are ambiguous in a debate. I believe that you believe I am downplaying non-violent discrimination as opposed to violent discrimination. That's a very big difference!
to aid your weak argument.
I'd love for you to tell me where my argument is week.
It is the deliberate forcing of one's distorted personal beliefs onto others, suppressing their rights and freedoms.
Before I say anything about this, I'd like to remind you that this debate (in title, at least) had nothing to do with persecutions committed by Christians, but rather about Christians being persecuted.
Something which I find all groups can be accused of, but typically by small factions and, quite often in the case of Christians v. homosexuals, non-violently.
Is that what persecution is defined as?!
Not the only application of persecution, but perfectly valid.
-------------------------------------------
Now let's set up a little scenario to preemptively show how discrimination against a certain group can give another, larger group a bad name:
There are one hundred people trapped in a party hall. Ninety-five are neutral, four are in opposition to homosexuality, and the last one is a homosexual (let's say that he's wearing a purple tux, whilst all the other tuxes are black). So, there are four people who don't like his sexual preference for any of a great number of reasons. One walks by him and shouts "nobody likes faggots!" (obviously hyperbole!). Another walks by and makes a rude gesture, and the last two do nothing.
There! 100% of the homosexual population has been "persecuted" twice! The figures (eg. "42% of gays feel discriminated against" vs. "8% of white people feel discriminated against") can appear skewed when it comes to minorities persecuting majorities, for there are far fewer members, of whom far, far fewer actually persecute the majority. But things change when one country's majority becomes another country's minority.
There are one hundred people trapped in a party hall. Ninety-five are neutral, four are in opposition to homosexuality, and the last one is a homosexual (let's say that he's wearing a purple tux, whilst all the other tuxes are black). So, there are four people who don't like his sexual preference for any of a great number of reasons. One walks by him and shouts "nobody likes faggots!" (obviously hyperbole!). Another walks by and makes a rude gesture, and the last two do nothing.
There! 100% of the homosexual population has been "persecuted" twice! The figures (eg. "42% of gays feel discriminated against" vs. "8% of white people feel discriminated against") can appear skewed when it comes to minorities persecuting majorities, for there are far fewer members, of whom far, far fewer actually persecute the majority. But things change when one country's majority becomes another country's minority.
Does that make it any better though? Because what you appear to be saying is that simply because there are less gays, it's not as bad. Obviously we understand that for 100% of gays to be persecuted it doesn't take 100% of non-gays, and that's the only real point you made.
Whatever estimate you take for gays, 1%, 10%, or probably the most accurate for the US, 5%, that's still about 15 million people being persecuted, and discriminated against. Even, as you said, accepting that it's non-violent oppression, that's still not something most people consider good.
Just out of interest, are you defending it, or downplaying it, or simply discrediting his argument? You seem a little ambiguous.
In the western world, and especially the united states; the presence of christian organizations and the domination of it in our culture is nearly inescapable.
It is rather naïve to say that because some American companies have religious ties that Christians aren't persecuted. There is, believe it or not, a world outside of the US, and that world, often enforcing atheism or Islam, is far from friendly to Christians.
Christianity is nearly 1/3 of the world population. It is by far the most dominate ideology of any type in the entire world, far far outnumbering any other religion.
Sure, in some pockets of the world Christians may be persecuted. Imagining for a second that it is anywhere near the extent to which Muslims, gay people, or any other minority is persecuted is a fantastical piece of imagination.
What I don't get anytime I hear one of the dozens of debates where some Christian is be-crying their horrid lot in life is, why it is so simple for you to imagine shadow-discrimination against the obviously dominate ideology while at the very same time doing absolutely nothing ever to dare say a word against Christians actually doing what you so imaginatively claim is happening to yourself. Example: gays and Muslims and how Christians are so evil toward these groups as a whole.
Christianity is nearly 1/3 of the world population.
Divided into countless sects and denominations, many of which loathe each other.
It is by far the most dominate ideology of any type in the entire world, far far outnumbering any other religion.
Which doesn't mean that any of its adherents are not oppressed for their beliefs.
Sure, in some pockets of the world Christians may be persecuted.
Your pockets must be quite big.
Imagining for a second that it is anywhere near the extent to which Muslims, gay people, or any other minority is persecuted is a fantastical piece of imagination.
Depends on in which part of the world you happen to be.
What I don't get anytime I hear one of the dozens of debates where some Christian is be-crying their horrid lot in life is
I believe that the creator of this debate made it so that he may ridicule what I agree is probably a Christian persecution complex most often.
why it is so simple for you to imagine shadow-discrimination against the obviously dominate ideology while at the very same time doing absolutely nothing ever to dare say a word against Christians actually doing what you so imaginatively claim is happening to yourself.
Such ambiguities! Calm down on the pronouns usage and the overuse of forms of the word "do".
Example: gays and Muslims and how Christians are so evil toward these groups as a whole.
One thing you may notice in my arguments is that I failed to mention general groups as being responsible for persecutions. Of the billion or so Muslims, only a very small number are responsible for acts of terrorism, yet the whole lot of 'em are blamed (I estimated something like .0005% are actually terrorists in a previous debate).
So, why is it that you insist that "Christians are so evil" towards "gays and Muslims"? I've never been anything less than respectable in my dealings with members of those groups (I've actually even watched a number of gay films, something most Christians would never even consider). I've never known a Christian to be "evil" towards those groups. I've only heard rare accounts in newscasts, though I have heard homophobic sentiments from Muslims and atheists I know. I'm not saying that anybody I know is representative, or that it matters, but one person can destroy a generalization simply (ie. sure, some Christians are less than human in their dealings with homosexuals and non-Christians, but likewise are some non-Christians less than human in their dealings with homosexuals and Christians, etc, etc). You write as though you seem to think Christians are responsible for all the oppression, and these oppressed groups are being oppressed together. What you have is a common liberal trait: the Minority Persecution Complex.
That's an awful argument. I've lived in two of the countries on that list, and I've visited 5 more, and I have friends who either live or have been two most of the countries there. Christians are not killed in large numbers anywhere in the world any more, and there are even that are directly because the person's Christian.
You obviously know nothing about what you're talking about, my guess is you just copied and pasted this from somewhere on the internet. In all honesty, it's hugely insulting to suggest that any country discriminates en masse to such an extreme, I'd learn more about what you're talking about before you go quoting it around.
I've lived in India & Qatar. In India I've also been up and down the country, and never had any problems. It happens, but due to its large size that's hardly surprising, and it's exceptionally rare. In Qatar, it's an Islamic state but the majority of the population is not (85% of country is immigrants), and there is complete freedom of religion. Again, never heard of violence towards Christians.
I've visited Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. In none of them did I feel threatened in the slightest over my religion, or lack of. Yes, there have been incidents in the past, in Indonesia and Pakistan, but to connect small scale events to the 'ongoing deaths of 160,000 each year' is ridiculous.
Could you please show the source of the 160,000 a year statistic, as well? I'd be interested to see on what grounds the claim's made.
If you come in as a Christian you might be fine, if you convert from Islam you might be dead
Qatar:
The government uses Sunni law as the basis of its criminal and civil regulations. Some religious tolerance is granted. Foreign nationals are free to affiliate with their faiths other than Islam, i.e. Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Bahai, as long as they are religious in private and do not offend 'public order' or 'morality'. There is persecution here.
Bangladesh:
Religious minorities may worship openly, but they face social discrimination. Most discrimination against Christians comes from Muslims, but Buddhists in southeastern Bangladesh also cause trouble for Christians. Christians are denied access to public water wells, beaten and blackmailed. Last year, six Christian health-care workers accused of “hurting religious feelings” were arrested while working with a Japanese volunteer doctor. A judge dismissed the case in April because police failed to submit a primary investigation report.
Malaysia:
In Malaysia if you want to be considered a Malay then you are legally required to be a Muslim. If a non-Muslim marries a Muslim, they are legally required to convert to Islam. Oh, also Christians are not allowed to proselytize Muslims, only Muslims are allowed to do that.
The persecution of Christians, including violence and hate propaganda, has escalated in Sri Lanka in recent years with the rise of militant Buddhist nationalist groups. Although the constitution guarantees religious freedom, minority Protestants have experienced violent persecution as well as discrimination in employment and education. An anti-conversion law is awaiting legislative approval. The law would make evangelism punishable by up to seven years in prison. In February 2011, a pastor and his family were attacked in their home. The attacker was arrested but later released with only a severe warning and the requirement that he apologize to the pastor.
First of all, I'm going to discuss the source. He gives absolutely no proof of any of his claims, and even he says near the end that most religious deaths are not due to religion alone, a direct contradiction of his earlier claim that 163,000 die a year for not renouncing their faith. I do not trust it even slightly, he claims that in 2025 210,000 Christians will die, definitely seems to just be making numbers up.
India: You're fine. There has been religious violence in the past, and there will always be a small number of deaths, but there is freedom of religion, and the chances of having any problems is minute (it does have 1.3 billion people, tiny chance that anything will happen to you).
Qatar: I live there now. There are churches, there are thousands of openly Christian, Hindu, Buddhist people. They are fine. Yes, law is based on Islam law, but that's their right to decide. Connecting either of these two countries to the '163,000 killed for their faith' is not a logical thing.
Bangladesh, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and Indonesia, all three have certain tendencies towards certain religions, but I don't feel they're any worse than Christians, and the Western world discriminates against Muslims, and other religions, as the debate asks.
Pakistan, yes, there is violence against Christianity, but even there, it's rarely more than 100 deaths a year, I'd say, not good, but it's decreasing every year. I will accept that there is a large problem in Pakistan, but considering its lack of government regulation over its outermost regions, I'm hardly surprised with its history.
Once again this debate is about Christian persecution...I have provided more than sufficient evisence that it occurs. Just one person being killed because of their faith is too much.
Agreed, but that doesn't make your claims valid. Obviously, persecution happens to absolutely everyone, but in context, especially considering the debate tags, I feel it was talking about something larger than a single death.
My claim is that Christians are persecuted either passively or actively in many parts of the world, as opposed to just a few places as my opponent had suggested.
Sure, in some pockets of the world Christians may be persecuted. Imagining for a second that it is anywhere near the extent to which Muslims, gay people, or any other minority is persecuted is a fantastical piece of imagination.
What I don't get anytime I hear one of the dozens of debates where some Christian is be-crying their horrid lot in life is, why it is so simple for you to imagine shadow-discrimination against the obviously dominate ideology while at the very same time doing absolutely nothing ever to dare say a word against Christians actually doing what you so imaginatively claim is happening to yourself. Example: gays and Muslims and how Christians are so evil toward these groups as a whole.
The original quote which I believe you were replying to the reply of. Considering that your source is itself not based on a verifiable source, I'd contend that you've brought little to the debate. Yes, everyone knows that there are Islamic states, and that people from all religions are persecuted against, but a) I'm not saying it's quantifiable, or backed up, but I would imagine that levels of persecution are at the very least similar, I'm not going to defend it, I'm simply saying my opinion & b) Your original claim of 163,000 deaths a year due to not renouncing Christian faith, is fantastical and incorrect.
They are persecuted, but not systematically within the western world.
Leninist states have collapse(or in the case of cuba, are about to go though "revisionism"), you should see more religious freedom there soon as you have been seeing more. Leninism isn't coming back either.
Islam on the streets tend to be better with treating foreigners, populism(influenced by hollywood[and bollywood]) once some issues of self-determination and such is meet should result in democratic republics and more religious freedom.
However, despite all these trends the dominate religion tends to persecute the minorities. Islam only has an upper hand in some areas due to the higher population growth of underdeveloped countries, and because it is seen as non-western. A lot of mid-eastern dislike for Christians likely derives from colonialism. Although missionaries which set up schools and the like continue the colonial practices of civilizing the "savages". Any way, the point is that as we move away from the colonial period of history you'll see less Islamic persecution against Christians and more against Muslims. (The west isn't done with the mid-east yet). The religion best situated to continue persecution is Christianity, and in the coming years it may find itself less challenged. Just this year alone(and already) numerous republican state congresses attempted to pass legislation that violated the separation of church and state clause. In Indiana it even passed the senate but thankfully not the house(yet). Point is, christain persecution is the most systematic and embedded. The state sanctioned violence of previous Leninist states and some Islamic states was due to a lack of embeddedness in society, an act against the grain. I am looking for with the grain persecution, and when you look for that you consistently see one religion at the forefront.
All people are subjected to persecution, but the question is of quantity. And unfortunately, the question of quantity, whether it be the amount of victimization or the amount of violation, the practitioners of the Christian faith are largely not the most innocent people on the planet. It could arguable that they are just as persecuted as they themselves persecute others... if they didn't take up a third of the world's population.
It is Christians that are opposed to American Muslims erecting Mosques, and Western (Christian) countries that have interfered with the internal affairs of non Christian countries. It was America and Britain that deposed a democratically elected president in Iran and put the Shah of Iran in power. It was the West (Christian nations) that set up Israel in a primarily dark, Muslim part of the world when it was a Christian nation that inflicted the Holocaust on the Jewish People. Christians and their Bible is the number one ideological weapon in the world. Christians go into darker countries with their missionaries and gain power over them with their religion. Slavery, Native American genocide, destruction of the Carib Indians, the Aztecs, and opposition to gay rights are all examples of self righteous Christians persecuting others.
