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Jesus is God's Word. Jesus is "logos" which mean "Word". He was at the beginning of creation as mentioned in Genesis. "In the beginning was the Word". Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1, 1:14)
Muslims have a faulty logic in their claims. It's called "Self-referencing".
What this means is this:
"How do we know the Quran is truth?"
"Because Muhammad says Quran is the truth."
"How do we know Muhammad speaks the truth?"
"Because the Quran says Muhammad speaks the truth."
Christianity and the Bible is not self-referencing. It is supported by many contemporary sources and historical context. There's far greater evidence to prove that the Bible is true and the authentic Word of God than Islam's self-referencing faulty logic.
If we're wrong in teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, then He must have been wrong in allowing people to worship him. Jesus Himself said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Mat. 4:10) Why would He say this at the beginning of His ministry and then spend His ministry allowing people to worship HIM?
In Acts 10:25-26, and in Revelation 19:10, worship of anyone other than God Himself is forbidden, yet Jesus willingly received worship throughout His public ministry (John 20:28; Mat. 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 28:9; John 9:38). If He isn't Deity, then why didn't He correct those who worshipped Him?
I'm checking out Ravi, he seems pretty good, like his stuff and style so far, thanks for the link. He seems like guy who even if I find some things I disagree with I can appreciate for his fluent rationality in the things I can agree with him on....and so far I have seen nothing to disagree with him on.....and I'm extremely analytical and particular about who I would give such credit to. Thanks for posting that link, never heard of the guy before.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life" [1 John 5:20]
"If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God" [1 John 4:15]
Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me." [Luke 8:28]
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name
"Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” [Matthew 1:23]
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". [Isaiah 9:6]
Good job, sister, but I'll be surprised if any Muslims accept it. They are taught from early childhood to not believe the Bible no matter how you show them the answer they ask for. (better if you use King James only, especially with Muslims. They will use changed versions which weaken or remove wordings which uphold the deity of Christ. They will also say multiple versions of the Bible proves none of them is true. We have God's word preserved and translated into English in the King James Bible as God said He would preserve it down to the tiniest punctuation mark.)
The fact is, Jesus never DID claim to be god. The closest he ever came was in John, with all of that "IN the Beginning was the Word" and all of that stuff. And all those "I am the Light" references.
But this claim could be argued to mean he was claiming something other than being god. Just like he said "I am the Word, and the word was with god...." How can he be "with" god if he WAS god?"
And what about asking god why he forsook him when he was dying on the cross? Was he asking himself why he forsoook himself?
And what about all those times he spoke of god as "the Father?"
And spoke of his Father's House?"
Clearly he was speaking of a separate entity. Not himself.
Nope....fact remains....Jesus never said, "I am God!"
SS
And here's some other stuff from an article online that clearly offers several biblical quotes that ascertain Jesus never claimed to be god....
2- Jesus never said I am God.
Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God:
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins
Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:
Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.
Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.
Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.
Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.
So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not a coincidence.
2- Jesus never said I am God.
Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God:
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins
Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:
Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.
Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.
Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.
Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.
So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not a coincidence.
I assume you did not mean to repeat your comment twice in one post. I notice also that all of your examples are extracted from the Old Testament, none of which are applicable to the original question because Jesus had not arrived yet and does not feature. God comprises of three bodies and one of those was in human form (Christ) – that does not make Him a separate entity, it simply means that He had not unveiled that part of Himself to the world as yet. True, we do not read those exact words by Jesus Himself, however, that is not to say that they are not verses whereby Jesus Himself authorises and confirms that the title of ‘God’ applies to Him:
For instance, in John 1:14 it states “the Word was with God and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”, meaning Jesus as God in the flesh. Even when these titles are used for Jesus by others in His presence, notice they are never corrected or disputed by Him at any time.
Matthew 16: 15-17 records that Peter calls Jesus “the Messiah, Son of the Living God” to which He responds by blessing Him “this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father who is in Heaven”.
Same with Matthew 26: 63-64 – “Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God” “It is as you said” Jesus replies.
Thomas refers to Jesus as “My Lord and my God” when He sees Him for the first time after the resurrection [John 20: 28-9]
That said, He would not have been so despised by the Jews enough for them to want to stone Him had He not made those claims Himself, as mentioned in John 10:30-39 where He begins by saying “I and the Father are One”.
Moreover, Jesus frequently references and corroborates the OT, for instance “Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures” [Luke 24:27] and throughout Matthew [ch 5: 17, 19:4-6, 22: 29, 24:37-38 etc.]
"I am the God Yahweh who appeared to Moses as the Burning Bush."
As you claimed he said. If you cannot produce that quote, then everything else he said, especially when he refers to God as a 3rd person, and when he speaks with god on the Cross (why have you forsaken me) clearly allude to the fact he was NOT god, but rather his son.
I notice also that all of your examples are extracted from the Old Testament, none of which are applicable to the original question because Jesus had not arrived yet and does not feature.
He mentioned the OT because God would actively tell everyone he was God. He couldn't find quotes in the NT.
For instance, in John 1:14 it states
Doesn't it also say begotten of God meaning not God?
Matthew 16: 15-17 records that Peter calls Jesus “the Messiah, Son of the Living God” to which He responds by blessing Him “this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father who is in Heaven”.
Isn't Jesus saying He is the son, and not God?
Same with Matthew 26: 63-64 – “Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God” “It is as you said” Jesus replies.
SlapShot acknowledged that Jesus said He was the son of God.
Thomas refers to Jesus as “My Lord and my God” when He sees Him for the first time after the resurrection [John 20: 28-9]
Doesn't John 20:31 specify Jesus is the son of God?
[Luke 24:27] and throughout Matthew [ch 5: 17, 19:4-6, 22: 29, 24:37-38 etc.]
Isn't Jesus talking about the Christ being referenced in the OT and not Him being God?
He mentioned the OT because God would actively tell everyone he was God. He couldn't find quotes in the NT.
Hence why I provided him with some, because that was more relevant to the discussion at hand. Though God declares Himself throughout the OT but He does not cease to be God when we enter the NT. The greatest commandment is given in the OT book Deuteronomy 6:5 “Love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind”- a verse that is repeated in all the Gospel texts.
Doesn't it also say begotten of God meaning not God.
Yes it does say that and no, it means born of God. God has given and produced Himself in flesh, hence why it specifies 'only begotten Son'.
Isn't Jesus saying He is the son, and not God?
Yes, but the two are one and the same. Jesus being the Son is one form of God which is the human aspect – that does not make Him separate. In becoming human and bearing all of the restrictions that brings (physically and spiritually), Jesus is not on a par with God the Father in that sense.
SlapShot acknowledged that Jesus said He was the son of God.
No he didn’t. He does not even consider Him to be divine, to reference his own debate.
Doesn't John 20:31 specify Jesus is the son of God?
See my answer above; however I will say an analogy can also fit this concept. Water can manifest as ice and steam, and although they are all different forms, they have the same property which is water.
Isn't Jesus talking about the Christ being referenced in the OT and not Him being God?
Well incidentally the Christ is referenced in the OT in the form of prophecy: Isaiah 7, Zechariah 9:9 and Psalm 22:16-18 specifically detail what to expect of His coming. As for the NT verses here, Jesus is talking about the importance of the OT and how He comes to fulfil it since it is the Law of God. This is why there are various quotes in the OT that are repeated in the NT, demonstrating that they still bear relevance.
SlapShot is making the claim that the son of God is not God.
He does not even consider Him to be divine,
He doesn't think Jesus is divine because He never claimed to be God.
Water can manifest as ice and steam, and although they are all different forms, they have the same property which is water.
Where did Jesus confirm the Trinity? This analogy doesn't seem to fit because the reason why ice and steam are different forms is because they are both made from H2O, but God has the fundamental property that He never shuts up about being God. Jesus doesn't have that property.
Well incidentally the Christ is referenced in the OT in the form of prophecy: Isaiah 7, Zechariah 9:9 and Psalm 22:16-18 specifically detail what to expect of His coming. As for the NT verses here, Jesus is talking about the importance of the OT and how He comes to fulfil it since it is the Law of God. This is why there are various quotes in the OT that are repeated in the NT, demonstrating that they still bear relevance.
But if He is only confirming that He is the Messiah, how is that evidence that He claimed to be God?
Where did Jesus confirm the Trinity? This analogy doesn't seem to fit because the reason why ice and steam are different forms is because they are both made from H2O, but God has the fundamental property that He never shuts up about being God. Jesus doesn't have that property.
Precisely. Ice is one form of H20, steam is another form of the same. Jesus is one form of God. The Holy Spirit is another form of God. They both come from the LORD. So it does fit. In both scenarios the forms are inseparable from the primary base. Jesus also details the arrival of a Helper “the Spirit of Truth” who the Father will send in John 14:15.
But if He is only confirming that He is the Messiah, how is that evidence that He claimed to be God?
Jesus’ identity as God can also be seen in the names/titles He has. The name Jesus itself means “God is Salvation”. He also has the name “Immanuel” (again mentioned in Isaiah 7:14) meaning “God is with us”. In Isaiah 9:6 it states “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given…..and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace”.
I don't see where the "H2O part" of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is.
Jesus also details the arrival of a Helper “the Spirit of Truth” who the Father will send in John 14:15.
Ok, but is that spirit the Holy Spirit? I am not seeing what that helper has to do with the discussion.
The name Jesus itself means “God is Salvation”. He also has the name “Immanuel” (again mentioned in Isaiah 7:14) meaning “God is with us”.
If my name meant "Stay Puft Marshmallow man is not dangerous" does that mean I am the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man? I don't understand how a name that describes God as something makes that person God.
In Isaiah 9:6 it states “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given…..and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace”.
We came from the Lord in the sense of being His Creation but we are not His incarnate. This is where the term ‘begotten’ is key (meaning ‘the only one of its class or kind) and why Jesus is the only One, much like a biological child. Being born of God, He is without sin, but we are not. We cannot issue eternal life because we are not eternal but Jesus can. So there is a difference.
I don't see where the "H2O part" of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is.
That is God the Father. He is the H2O because without Him neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit would exist. The analogy describes the basic connection between the three.
Jesus also details the arrival of a Helper “the Spirit of Truth” who the Father will send in John 14:15.
OK, but is that spirit the Holy Spirit? I am not seeing what that helper has to do with the discussion.
Yes the Helper is the Holy Spirit – Jesus calls Him this in verse 26. He is sent as the third form of God who comes to dwell with us as Jesus leaves to reside with the Father. However, it is up to us to accept Him if we want to know who He is.
If my name meant "Stay Puft Marshmallow man is not dangerous" does that mean I am the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man? I don't understand how a name that describes God as something makes that person God.
Ha interesting meaning :) Of course. If you decide your name then it is whatever you want it to be. The meaning of the name is important because it illustrates how you wish to be described. Why else do many parents like to search for the meaning of names when it comes to naming their children? A tremendous lot lies in a name so it is important. In this case, Immanuel is appropriate because God is with them – in the form of Christ.
When did Jesus call himself those things?
The titles are in reference to the sovereignty of His spiritual status. The foremost focus that the Bible records is on what Christ’s status as a human being, so although He may not refer to Himself by those titles, He refers to their meaning. Take even an earthly monarch like the Queen Elizabeth of England, for instance. She has numerous titles but she does not necessarily refer to herself by those titles when she goes about her duties. She would be even less inclined to if she were engaged in very modest living as Jesus was. What was important was that He live up to those titles, and He did. We see verses were He embodies them via His interactions with others, esp. His disciples.
That is God the Father. He is the H2O because without Him neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit would exist. The analogy describes the basic connection between the three.
Yes. And, your analogy is false. In the analogy there is a common link between water, ice, and steam. That common link is fundamental to the property that makes all those things the same: being made of H2O. God's fundamental property is that He never shuts up about being God. The Holy Spirit and Jesus do not contain this property. Therefore, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same as God.
……..Right. Interesting conclusion. I’m wondering why you think that the behaviour of one (i.e. God the Father) determines the identities of the others? If we tally this conclusion of yours with the analogy given, that is akin to saying that because ice sustains things cool below average temperature or that steam has the capacity to form condensation on windows that ergo neither of them contain H2O like water does. Is this what you mean?
I don't think it is a behavior. I think it is His fundamental property. He can't do anything without mentioning it.
Not so; His fundamental property would be in all the qualities that define His character - love, righteousness, holiness, truth etc., not about how often He mentions His own name.
Murder is God's behavior. It makes sense that there could be other forms of God that don't murder.
God didn't show love, righteousness, holiness, or truth in the OT. The only thing He did consistently was say He was God and murder.
The term is applicable to all murderers, especially the one who has murdered the most people ever. If the biggest serial killer of all time doesn't get considered a murderer than no one should.
God didn't show love, righteousness, holiness, or truth in the OT. The only thing He did consistently was say He was God and murder.
That is not the case. A core element of God is His holiness, which in turn exhibits , itself through His righteousness. By setting Laws of rectitude, God intended for His children to mirror these qualities by abiding by His Laws which He regularly refers to in the OT and Christ continues this in the NT. This is in the execution of justice. He demonstrates this by giving humanity chance after chance to repent of their offences before He issues judgement (Sodom and Gomorrah a prime example), culminating in the sending of Christ. Nor does He fail to tell the truth about anything because He is truth– there are no instances in His Word where He deceives anyone (that is a sin again this would be against His purity of nature). This behaviour is incongruous with that of someone devoid of all the qualities mentioned, esp. love.
The term is applicable to all murderers, especially the one who has murdered the most people ever. If the biggest serial killer of all time doesn't get considered a murderer than no one should.
The term is not applicable to God because He is God. Only He has, or rather is the authority to give life and only He is the authority to take it away. It is the penalty in the face of immorality. Therefore, He does not and cannot act unlawfully because He is the Law; whilst murder is “the premeditated unlawful killing of a human being by another.” As we human beings do not have the monopoly on life, we do not possess the right to decide who ought to live and who ought to die.
A core element of God is His holiness, which in turn exhibits , itself through His righteousness.
That doesn't exist in the OT.
He demonstrates this by giving humanity chance after chance to repent of their offences before He issues judgement (Sodom and Gomorrah a prime example), culminating in the sending of Christ.
That isn't holiness.
Nor does He fail to tell the truth about anything because He is truth– there are no instances in His Word where He deceives anyone (that is a sin again this would be against His purity of nature).
He tells Abraham to kill Isaac knowing that He would never have Abraham kill Isaac. That is failing to tell the truth.
This behaviour is incongruous with that of someone devoid of all the qualities mentioned, esp. love.
That's why it is pretty obvious He doesn't exist.
The term is not applicable to God because He is God.
If you murder people it doesn't matter who you are.
Only He has, or rather is the authority to give life and only He is the authority to take it away.
Having the authority to take it away doesn't exempt you from being called a murderer.
Therefore, He does not and cannot act unlawfully because He is the Law;
He either didn't tell us His law or He is a murderer. Either way there is a problem.
whilst murder is “the premeditated unlawful killing of a human being by another.” As we human beings do not have the monopoly on life, we do not possess the right to decide who ought to live and who ought to die.
What do you want to call God violating His own laws and killing someone?
It is if you read the OT/That doesn't exist in the OT.
Why do you say that? God issues righteousness in the laws He lays down for Man, that they may choose to either obey or disobey. Acting against the Laws brings consequences, as is the case in our societies even. If God is righteous, then He wants that to be manifested in His people.
That isn't holiness.
What is not holiness is violating God’s commandments that bring desecration of His land, the very commandments created to preserve said holiness rather than blight it. The many chances He provides for repentance showcase His mercy, but issuing punishment is demonstrative of justice (again as we human beings do). You cannot have everything being permissible.
He tells Abraham to kill Isaac knowing that He would never have Abraham kill Isaac. That is failing to tell the truth.
No. Failing to tell the truth would be God stating, or rather prophesying to Abraham that he will kill his own son and then preventing him from doing so; but He didn’t. He simply gave an instruction. An instruction is altogether different from a revelation – the former concerns obedience, the latter concerns the truth.
If you murder people it doesn't matter who you are/ Having the authority to take it away doesn't exempt you from being called a murderer.
As I said earlier, He is the authority to give and take away life. Once you possess that authority, you are in charge of how your principles apply and no one else has the right to dictate otherwise. A school will have the rule that students must not attend in their own clothing, but must wear a school uniform. Failure to observe this dress code is violation of the rule; yet school staff (incl. the headteacher/principal who issues the school uniform) attend in their own clothing. Are they violating the school rules? No, because they are inapplicable to them. Same with God.
He either didn't tell us His law or He is a murderer. Either way there is a problem.
……He does tell us His Law; people merely choose to flout it. If He has given us prior warning He cannot logically be held accountable for the consequences.
What do you want to call God violating His own laws and killing someone?
The violation arises solely from human beings themselves, not from God. His laws remain unchanged, and He does not act against them at any time, as I was saying earlier. There are certain things that only the Lord may mandate, and death is one of them.
True, we do not read those exact words by Jesus Himself...
Exactly! Thanks for admitting what I have claimed:
That Jesus NEVER said he was god.
This is my only point here. He never claimed it, and there is no proof for it. Rather, it is far more likely he was just another radical cult leader and political insurrectionist of 1st Century Roman Controlled Palestine. Of which there were several at that time.
‘More likely’. So you cannot confirm this. I am interested as to how you, in your evident confidence, can corroborate this view of yours and how Jesus is ‘just like all the others’.
For instance, in John 1:14 it states “the Word was with God and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”, meaning Jesus as God in the flesh. Even when these titles are used for Jesus by others in His presence, notice they are never corrected or disputed by Him at any time.
But saying that "the word was with god....." does NOT mean Jesus is god! It does NOT say Jesus was with god! You are jumping to conclusions here.
As far as Jesus never correcting anybody who called him god, that is because nobdoy ever did! Show me a quote where somebody asked JC if he was god and JC said "Yes I am."
My fact remains unchallenged by you........................
Jesus never uttered the words "I am God."
Thanks for agreeing with me on that. So....go ahead and speculate all you want and twist words around as you like. But the bible itself corroborates my claim.
But saying that "the word was with god....." does NOT mean Jesus is god! It does NOT say Jesus was with god! You are jumping to conclusions here.
"The Word was with God and Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” – ‘Word’ ‘flesh’ and ‘dwelt’ being the key words; how is that jumping to conclusions?
As far as Jesus never correcting anybody who called him god, that is because nobdoy ever did!
Not giving full attention to my post(s) again.
Show me a quote where somebody asked JC if he was god and JC said "Yes I am."
John 8 sees the Pharisees in questioning Jesus said “You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham!”Jesus gave this response “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM!” This declaration was followed by the Jews descending upon Jesus to attack Him with stones.
Thanks for agreeing with me on that. So....go ahead and speculate all you want and twist words around as you like. But the bible itself corroborates my claim.
You said fact earlier. Though I am pleased you have opted for the more appropriate term for your argument which is ‘claim’. So to rephrase your sentence: you have attempted to corroborate your claim via the selection of verses inapplicable to the question at hand whilst ignoring the ones that actually do.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, these three are one. You're using Muslim or Jehovah's Witnesses propaganda which is ignorant of the Bible and ignorant of the passages where Jesus said the same thing as if He were to flatly say "I am God". The main charge used by the Jewish religious leaders to crucify Him was that He made Himself to be God, blasphemy. They knew Jesus was claiming to be God, you're only showing your ignorance when post this Muslim or Jehovah's Witness garbage...and wherever you got it from, it's the same disinformation propaganda used by Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims.
And your "Alpha and Omega" quote is from the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, further proving how you prefer ignorance over Biblical doctrine in what you are saying.
How can Jesus be the Word which was God and was with God? Simple, Simon, God the Father, God the Son (the Word) and God the Holy Spirit. This doctrine is throughout the Bible from cover to cover. Why in the world people accept this propaganda you are posting and they decide they know it all is baffling, a sign of intellectual laziness encouraged in public schools.
I addressed them all...read below. You are playing dumb like the Muslims or Jehovah's Witnesses who use this same material while they ignore the obvious truth in the Bible that Jesus is God and He clearly stated that He is God even though he is not recorded as saying "I am God".
Read my posts. I answered you completely. I have gone through this with Muslims who carry this garbage a lot farther than you and they will take the answers I gave which are clearly taught throughout the Bible and they will pick them apart by trying to say the original writings of the Bible are lost and they ignore all common sense regarding what Jesus said about Himself being God which is what the Jews used as the main charge excusing themselves to murder Him.
You're out of your field here, Slappy, your way behind on this stuff, just copy and pasting garbage from Muslims or Jehovah's witnesses which may or may not credit the sources...but it's straight out of Muslim and Jehovah's Witness garbage trying to deny the deity of Christ which is clearly taught throughout the Bible.
Throwing out a big red herring and saying "chase this" does not work with me. You answer my points if you want to debate, my points covered your whole insinuation.
Brace yourself here, friend, I get quite preachy in this one.........I don't want you to be lost in Hell.
You know better than this garbage you are posting. When Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM.", He claimed to be God who met with Moses in the burning bush. When Moses asked God what His name is, God said "I AM THAT I AM". Jesus made this claim directly to the Jewish religious leaders who knew exactly what He meant by it, that He was claiming to be the LORD, the same and only God who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.
I think you know the correct points of this discussion, and you just like playing Devil's advocate.
When Jesus' disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father, He replied, "have I been so long with you and you have not known me? If you have seen ME, you have seen the Father. He also said "I and my Father are one"
Jesus is the express image of the invisible God. God in Human form, He is the face of God you will see as your Judge if you finalize your dying rejecting Him as your Savior. Then you will see it was yourself who you were trying to turn into a straw man and your denial of God will be the denial of your life outside of Hell.......if you keep going the way you are going and you don't have to go that way......what are you trying to do to yourself?
If you really think Jesus did not claim to be God, you are either willfully ignorant or a lot dumber than I thought. Apparently your reading comprehension level is much lower than I thought, you seem to have a mental block. Maybe you can get over that mental block, maybe not. I've provided many time over what proves Jesus claimed to be God. Read it......maybe it will help if you ask God to remove your mental block.
I think you're just playing games anyways. You just make it up as you go along......but seriously, if you really believe the garbage you are posting here, if you really believe Jesus did not claim to be God, ........well friend, that's just hard for me to believe because you have to be just plain dumb to read the gospels and not see that Jesus claimed to be God.
Noooo...I am using pure indisputable fact: Jesus never said the words "I am God."
Rather, there are dozens of quotes on both the OT and even the Gospels that strongly suggest he was NOT god. He speaks of "god" or "the Father" so often that if he WERE god, he would have been speaking in a bizarre third-person style. It is far more likely if you use common sense, that he was referring to god like that because he was NOT god.
So he referred to him in the same way you or any believer would: by NOT CLAIMING TO BE HIM..but rather, simply a son of his. As in "god the Father."
You guys crack me up: you insist biblical literalness and demand "not a jot nor a tittle" is changed, yet you yourselves attempt to skew meaning and put words into Jesus' mouth to make his message suit your own ideas. Is this not hypocrisy?
If you really think Jesus did not claim to be God, you are either willfully ignorant or a lot dumber than I thought. Apparently your reading comprehension level is much lower than I thought, you seem to have a mental block. Maybe you can get over that mental block, maybe not. I've provided many time over what proves Jesus claimed to be God. Read it......maybe it will help if you ask God to remove your mental block.
I think you're just playing games anyways. You just make it up as you go along......but seriously, if you really believe the garbage you are posting here, if you really believe Jesus did not claim to be God, ........well friend, that's just hard for me to believe because you'd have to be just plain dumb to read the gospels and not see that Jesus claimed to be God.
He speaks of "god" or "the Father" so often that if he WERE god, he would have been speaking in a bizarre third-person style.
….I’m sorry?
It is far more likely if you use common sense, that he was referring to god like that because he was NOT god. So he referred to him in the same way you or any believer would: by NOT CLAIMING TO BE HIM..but rather, simply a son of his. As in "god the Father."
A ordinary believer would never describe themselves as being “One with the Father”. Being an ordinary believer would also not elicit such rage from the religious officials of the time, but the ‘audacious’ claim of divinity would. An ordinary believer (or any individual in fact) would also not permit their followers, if they had any, to refer to them by any title that they themselves do not authorise; Jesus’ followers consistently refer to Him and ‘my Lord and God’ and He confirms these, even after His resurrection.
You guys crack me up
A very dull sense of humour, I see, if simple discussion should provoke such a response.
you insist biblical literalness and demand "not a jot nor a tittle" is changed, yet you yourselves attempt to skew meaning and put words into Jesus' mouth to make his message suit your own ideas. Is this not hypocrisy?
Taking His quotes directly from the Bible is hardly “putting words into His mouth”, especially when they have not been altered by either of us in any way. So no, your claim of hypocrisy is not a valid one here.
Brace yourself here, friend, I get quite preachy in this one.........I don't want you to be lost in Hell.
You know better than this garbage you are posting. When Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM.", He claimed to be God who met with Moses in the burning bush. When Moses asked God what His name is, God said "I AM THAT I AM". Jesus made this claim directly to the Jewish religious leaders who knew exactly what He meant by it, that He was claiming to be the LORD, the same and only God who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.
I think you know the correct points of this discussion, and you just like playing Devil's advocate.
When Jesus' disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father, He replied, "have I been so long with you and you have not known me? If you have seen ME, you have seen the Father. He also said "I and my Father are one"
Jesus is the express image of the invisible God. God in Human form, He is the face of God you will see as your Judge if you finalize your dying rejecting Him as your Savior. Then you will see it was yourself who you were trying to turn into a straw man and your denial of God will be the denial of your life outside of Hell.......if you keep going the way you are going and you don't have to go that way......what are you trying to do to yourself?
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. John 13:13
Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
...Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:5,6
...after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9
God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16
...our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1st Timothy 6:14,15
God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person... Hebrews 1:1-3
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever... Hebrews 1:8
...the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
Simon Peter... through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2nd Peter 1:1
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:16
These verses address everything you are promoting which is Islamic propaganda also used by Jehovah's Witnesses and many other religions including atheism. You are the one who is not answering points if you do not address all of the passages I have presented here.
Check these references for yourself. In Matthew 22:42-45, Jesus claims to be the "Lord" of Psalm 110:1. He allows Thomas to address Him as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28.
He is the "everlasting Father" and "The mighty God" of Isaiah 9:6.
According to His own words in John 10:11-14, He is the "shepherd" of Psalm 23:1, Psalm 80:1, and Ezekiel 34:12.
God is the "saviour" in Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 45:15, 45:21, Hosea 13:4, Luke 1:47, and I Timothy 4:10, yet this same title is given to Jesus Christ in Luke 2:11, Philippians 3:20, II Timothy 1:10, and II Peter 2:20.
God is the "Rock" of Deuteronomy 32:4, 32:15, 32:18, 32:30-31, I Samuel 2:2, and Psalm 18:31, yet this title is given to the Lord Jesus Christ in I Corinthians 10:1-4, I Peter 2:7-8, and Romans 9:33.
God is "light" in Psalm 27:1 and Micah 7:8, and then Jesus is "light" in John 1:4-9 and in John 8:12.
In Isaiah 44:6 God says, "...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." In Revelation 1:17 Jesus Christ says, "...Fear not; I am the first and the last."
The Scriptures are clear: Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus says in Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" If Jesus Christ isn't Deity, then why did He include Himself in the Holy Trinity?
Jesus says in John 14:9, "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" Is the Father someone other than Jesus Christ? No, not according to Jesus Christ.
In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." Isn't that clear enough?
Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus was in the "form of God", and that he thought it not robbery to be "equal with God"!
The Jesus Christ of the New Testament claimed to be "one" with God and "equal" with God.
If we're wrong in teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, then He must have been wrong in allowing people to worship him. Jesus Himself said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Mat. 4:10) Why would He say this at the beginning of His ministry and then spend His ministry allowing people to worship HIM?
In Acts 10:25-26, and in Revelation 19:10, worship of anyone other than God Himself is forbidden, yet Jesus willingly received worship throughout His public ministry (John 20:28; Mat. 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 28:9; John 9:38). If He isn't Deity, then why didn't He correct those who worshipped Him?
"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer. 31:34) According to these words, it is GOD Who has the power and right to forgive sins. However, the New Testament says that Jesus Christ has this power.
Please notice Mark 2:5-11: "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house."
Jesus Christ is God, because only God can forgive sins. It's true that He took on the form of a man for thirty-three years on this earth, but He was still God. He was God manifest in the flesh (1st Timothy 3:16).
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The Jewish religious leaders knew exactly what Jesus was referring to when He said this, they knew exactly what He meant, they knew He was claiming to be the very God who appeared to Moses in Exodus 3 who said His name is I AM.
Ex 3:13-14: And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. _
The Jewish religious leaders lived on the Mosaic Law, they practiced a religion of self-justification in trying to keep and follow the Mosaic Law, they knew the beginning of God's work with Moses was thru the burning bush, and Jesus put the ax to the root of their tree when in John 8 He said, referring to Himself, "before Abraham was, I am." Jesus clearly was claiming to be God who gave the Law to Moses and even more than that He claimed to be God who was before Abraham...Jesus claimed to be God and aimed that claim directly at the two main roots of Judaism, their Father Abraham and Moses who God used to give them His Law. The Jewish religious leaders became instantly enraged and tried to kill Jesus because He clearly said He is God, the only God, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. They knew exactly what He meant, and if you don't know what He meant it's only because you are choosing to ignore it.....I really don't think you are so dumb that you can't follow the story line.
The reason the Jewish religious leaders used as a legal excuse by Jewish Law to execute Jesus was that He claimed to be God, blasphemy they said. Jesus made that claim many times in many ways and the Jewish religious leaders repeatedly accused Him of claiming to be God. You might want to read the gospels again, it seems like you have forgotten most of what they say. If your going to claim to know what you are talking about, you need to be able to follow the narrative of the gospels which so far you seem to have little clue about.
If we're wrong in teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, then He must have been wrong in allowing people to worship him. Jesus Himself said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Mat. 4:10) Why would He say this at the beginning of His ministry and then spend His ministry allowing people to worship HIM?
In Acts 10:25-26, and in Revelation 19:10, worship of anyone other than God Himself is forbidden, yet Jesus willingly received worship throughout His public ministry (John 20:28; Mat. 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 28:9; John 9:38). If He isn't Deity, then why didn't He correct those who worshipped Him?
Slappy, friend, I don't mean to imply you are not well read or familiar with Christian concepts when I say you are out of your field when you are trying to trash the Bible and the deity of Jesus Christ. You were raised in Catholicism, saw the lies and hypocricy of that pagan religion which uses Biblical names and historical references, and then something happened that really set you off against God and you stopped looking for the truth when you decided Catholicism completely disqualifies the notion of objective truth. You have set up a wall in your mind to exclude God from your thinking so you can only look at things in a way which allows you to not believe there could be something true on the other side of that wall. You have completely denied God is God, completely denied Jesus is God, completely denied the Bible is His word and you reject any contrary information which cannot be contained behind that wall you set up trying to hide yourself away from God. You are not qualified to teach what the Bible says when you reject most of what it says and you reject all key fundamentals of the faith of the Bible. You're not a Bible teacher, Slappy. You're an atheist. You have disqualified yourself from teaching the Bible, it's not your field.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God, and the triune nature of God is shown throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The fact that you do not understand the trinity of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, these three are One, does not mean it is not clearly taught throughout the Bible. Ignoring the facts is just plain intellectually lazy and/or intellectually dishonest like the Muslims. You are taking the same approach to the Bible as the Muslims do, using the same material they use, you might as well go join ISIS.
SlapShot is posting the same arguments Muslims will use, it's an argument of ignorance pretending like it is researched. The same lines are also used by Jehovah's Witnesses. Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Atheists all use bullying tactics pushing this kind of purposely intellectually lazy disinformation trying to deny the deity of Christ.
At least Jehovah's Witnesses generally will debate with good manners and no profanity...but they use bullying tactics like public schools, pushing a prescribed set of literature to study while strongly opposing studying contrary data. Atheists and Muslims are much more prone to verbally or physically abusive tactics. They try to intimidate Christians as they try to make them go away. A time will come when the attacks will be widespread, physical, as they are in many places around the world where Christians are being tortured and killed for their faith.
It is called debate. You cant start crying and shouting about muslims everytime someone disagrees with your interpretation of scripture. Defend your view!
You are way behind here, big mouth. You need to get informed before you open your mouth to show your ignorance. Yep, you can say I'm insulting you when I tell the truth about your behavior. You're just being a big mouth. God gave you two ears to listen with, two eyes to read with, yet you open your mouth wide and fast showing you prefer to use it over your ears and eyes. I listened and I read extensively on this subject long before this discussion. All you have done is to apparently run your mouth. You really are not qualified for this discussion, so I'm being nice enough to take the time to offer you some education. I've done the work for you, you can learn if you want to but you'll have to keep your mouth shut for a while as I did for years as I listened and read on the topic of this discussion. You're the cry baby here. Be a man (or woman, I'm still not sure what you are due to how you swith to an alternate gender account at the drop of a hat...are you sure if you are a man or a woman? It's abomination for a man to dress himself as a woman like you do when you switch to your female account, and vice-versa) and get some education.
King James Bible Verses Stating Jesus is God
Statement Verse
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. John 13:13
Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
...Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:5,6
...after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9
God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16
...our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1st Timothy 6:14,15
God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person... Hebrews 1:1-3
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever... Hebrews 1:8
...the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
Simon Peter... through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2nd Peter 1:1
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:16
These verses address everything you are promoting which is Islamic propaganda also used by Jehovah's Witnesses and many other religions including atheism. You are the one who is not answering points if you do not address all of the passages I have presented here.
The problem being is that we are all sons and daughters of God. So Christ didnt draw a clear distinction for himself. He could have just be saying he is the perfect Christian. The passages that clearly say that Christ was God were written in the John's gospel, which was written at around 90AD and almost certainly not be John himself.
This view is compounded by the fact that the idea of the doctrine of the holy trinity was created by powerful people in the Council of Nicae to propagate the idea that Christ, God and the Holy Spirit were all on the same. Before this time, 325AD, the idea that Christ WAS God was not the prevailing view. You completely understand this if you read passages where Jesus questions God (could he do that if he were one entity) and when the devil tries to tempt Christ (tempting God himself would be pretty futile...). We are ALL children of God and Christ is no different.
The problem being is that we are all sons and daughters of God. So Christ didnt draw a clear distinction for himself. He could have just be saying he is the perfect Christian. The passages that clearly say that Christ was God were written in the John's gospel, which was written at around 90AD and almost certainly not be John himself.
John didn’t die until 100AD. What makes you so certain that he could not have written it?
This view is compounded by the fact that the idea of the doctrine of the holy trinity was created by powerful people in the Council of Nicae to propagate the idea that Christ, God and the Holy Spirit were all on the same. Before this time, 325AD, the idea that Christ WAS God was not the prevailing view. You completely understand this if you read passages where Jesus questions God (could he do that if he were one entity) and when the devil tries to tempt Christ (tempting God himself would be pretty futile...). We are ALL children of God and Christ is no different.
Indeed we are all children of God in the sense of being His offspring because He created us. This includes those mentioned in the Bible, but there is only one who is the begotten child of God and that is Jesus. We become his sons and daughters in the personal sense when we accept Christ into our lives. He is our connection and that is what makes Him unique. However, God did not lose His identity when He came to Earth; He simply took on human form and was thus susceptible to the same impulses i.e. temptation. So in knowing this, the devil tried his hand but it proved futile.
The timeline you give in line with events is inaccurate. The Bible was already in being before the Council of Nicea gathered so Christ as one of a distinct body (Trinity) was not “conjured up” by anyone. Christ was already acknowledged as significant from the rest, both by Himself and by others.
John didn’t die until 100AD. What makes you so certain that he could not have written it?
It is extremely unlikely that he lived around 100 years. I am not a Christian scholar but the current thinking seems to be that that particularly gospel had more than one edition and multiple authors.
You sure can say again that you are not a Christian scholar.
John was boiled in oil which was supposed to be execution under Roman Law but somehow He lived. Because he had been legally executed, he could not be given another death penalty and was exiled to the isle of Patmos where God commanded Him to write what was shown to him in the Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Current thinking of people who deny that Jesus is God and the Bible is His word really does not matter....blind leaders of the blind are not to be respected in what they think regarding things they don't know
Current thinking of people who deny that Jesus is God and the Bible is His word really does not matter....blind leaders of the blind are not to be respected in what they think regarding things they don't know
I am talking about Christians who, by definition, believe that Christ is God. What evidence do you have to suggest it was written by him? The title?
There are a lot of people who say they are Christians but according to the Bible they are not. I could sit here all day and present one evidence after another, and all day tomorrow, and you would reject them. If you want to know, you can get the answer yourself.
You don't know what you are talking about. The trinity is found throughout the Old Testement, and Jesus clearly claimed to be the same and only God who spoke directly to Moses from the burning bush.
I'm not sure of your source for dating the gospel according to John around 90 ad, but Christians were under heavy persecution and it was a death penalty through torturous means if they were caught promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was not easy for them at the start to get the books of the New Testament in copy to pass among themselves.
And as for your "devil tries to tempt Christ" insinuation, Jesus answered the devil with "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God", once again referring to Himself as God.
Wherever your source for this garbage is, it's presented as if it's unanswerable and then whoever is trying to stand on it rejects the obvious answers which completely refute this false teaching. It is presented as conclusive and then you'll want to assume the argument is settled (for yourself, thinking you have made yourself equal to Jesus Christ and therefore exempt from Hell). By jumping to a conclusion and standing fast in it, you cease learning (actually never did learn to start with as you begin with lies and conclude with lies and stop asking for the truth). It's intellectual dishonesty, intellectual laziness.
Jesus clearly claimed to be the same and only God who spoke directly to Moses from the burning bush.
Really?
Could you be so kind as to show us the exact quote where he said this? And I don't want any of that nebulous stuff, like "I am the light" or nobody gets to the father except thru me. Those sort of things can be interpreted in several ways.
So I want a quote that has Jesus saying, "I am the very same god who spoke to Moses as the burning bush."
I will be waiting. And I am certainly not "out of me element here" Mr. Saint. At the end of the day I reckon I am as well-versed in the Bible as you or anybody here. You would be quite amazed how many times I have read it, and how much I have also studied Theology. I have also read all of your great writers like Thomas Aquinas; Saint Augustine; Thomas Merton; John Polkinghorne; Meister Eckhart (my favorite!) and the newer guys too such as D'nesh D'Souza and John Shelby Spong.
I am sick to death of letting you have it both ways. This will end now. I already proved you wrong about the bible (and Jesus" using metaphors. He clearly did, and I had you admit as much, after you initially denied it.
You also try to nitpick on science and Evolution theory that you really do not understand, and you dismiss a lot of the time-and-again proven science as being simply guesses. You do not allow ANY room for speculation in science theory. If we can only explain, say, 90% of something, you say "AHA! You cannot explain it fully because god did it!"
So...in turn, I want you to give us that exact quote from Jesus....
I posted many times in this discussion already answering your insinuations. You don't want the answer, you don't want the truth because you know if you believe the gospel you will have to turn your back on your sin, renounce things you take pleasure in, and your life will change. You're not man enough to be a Christian. You are man enough to be a sinner, a soldier, maybe a hero, a hockey star, an atheist, an evolutionary psychologist, a biologist, maybe a king....but not to be a Christian.
And you are either outside of the bounds of your knowledge or you are playing dumb. It seems to me that you would have enough Bible knowledge to understand the triune nature of God is taught in the Bible from cover to cover, and the Deity of Christ is central to the Bible and clearly shown in the Bible.
You can interpret many things in different ways, and when you must ignore things which contradict your interpretation, it's you who is in the wrong. What you are trying to do with the Bible is what atheists try to do with evolution and the big bang.....you start with an assumption and declare all data must fit that assumption and then everything you see must comply with your beginning assumption or be ignored.....and you are ignoring the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Christ which is found from cover to cover throughout the Bible.
AND....you are aiding and abetting Islam which uses the very same arguments and tactics you are using. Your in bed with the devil in this, and innocent blood shed by Muslims is on your hands when you are promoting their doctrines. Add that to the blood on your hands from babies who are murdered in their mother's wombs which you condone....I can see why you want to believe there is no God and you escape punishment in death.
Thomas Aquinas and Augustine are not approved by real Christians like myself, they promote Catholic heresies.
The other guys you name I haven't even heard of, I'm sure they are teaching heresies as it's the kind of stuff you love...self justifying ideas which fit right in with atheism.
You are out of your field here because your reasoning is twisted, your view of God is skewed, you deny He is God and that alone disqualifies you from knowing what you are talking about in the things of God. All you can do is double talk in this field, and that's all you do. You try to justify yourself with double talk as you deny God's right to pass judgement on your words, thoughts and actions. God is not in a hurry to give you what you ask for when you demand proof that He can execute you and leave you in Hell. Why are you in a hurry to get rid of God? Does He bother you?
Slappy, the only thing you are proving is that you are not going to Heaven. You say it yourself, and it's the only thing you can prove and accept as being proved. It's the only thing I agree with you on, the only thing you concede to as you insist you expect to be gone from reality in death. What in the world makes you think futility is good?
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The Jewish religious leaders knew exactly what Jesus was referring to when He said this, they knew exactly what He meant, they knew He was claiming to be the very God who appeared to Moses in Exodus 3 who said His name is I AM.
Ex 3:13-14: And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. _
The Jewish religious leaders lived on the Mosaic Law, they practiced a religion of self-justification in trying to keep and follow the Mosaic Law, they knew the beginning of God's work with Moses was thru the burning bush, and Jesus put the ax to the root of their tree when in John 8 He said, referring to Himself, "before Abraham was, I am." Jesus clearly was claiming to be God who gave the Law to Moses and even more than that He claimed to be God who was before Abraham...Jesus claimed to be God and aimed that claim directly at the two main roots of Judaism, their Father Abraham and Moses who God used to give them His Law. The Jewish religious leaders became instantly enraged and tried to kill Jesus because He clearly said He is God, the only God, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. They knew exactly what He meant, and if you don't know what He meant it's only because you are choosing to ignore it.....I really don't think you are so dumb that you can't follow the story line.
The Jewish religious leaders used as a legal excuse by Jewish Law to execute Jesus was that He claimed to be God, blasphemy they said. (pardon my grammar in that last sentence, I think the meaning is clear enough, I hate grammatical editing) Jesus made that claim many times in many ways and the Jewish religious leaders repeatedly accused Him of claiming to be God. You might want to read the gospels again, it seems like you have forgotten most of what they say. If your going to claim to know what you are talking about, you need to be able to follow the narrative of the gospels which so far you seem to have little clue about.
oh boy, here we go again with "you do not understand evolution". What's so hard to understand about it? You believe a single cell animal over kabillions of years morphed into people. Is that hard to understand?
I do not nitpick on science. I expose the fallacies of fake science used to support belief in the big bang and evolution.
I use scientific evidence and deductive logic to show big bang belief and belief in evolution is an erroneous philosophical preference and is not science, is silly, and should not be paid for in any way by taxpayer's money. It's a waste of money and time....it's all just fluff, like taking a junk piece of art and writing a book about it, using all kinds of picturesque language and big colorful descriptive words to get people talking about it and the more they talk about it, the more the price goes up and it's nothing but a piece of junk art. That's all evolution is, junk art with no real value except to create jobs for people who believe in it and pay them to dig up piles of bones.
You're asking a stupid question as you know Jesus never was quoted as saying "I am the Same God who spoke to Moses" but it is exactly what He implied and He said it very plainly.
John 8:54-59
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The Jewish religious leaders knew exactly what Jesus was referring to when He said this, they knew exactly what He meant, they knew He was claiming to be the very God who appeared to Moses in Exodus 3 who said His name is I AM.
Ex 3:13-14: And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. _
The Jewish religious leaders lived on the Mosaic Law, they practiced a religion of self-justification in trying to keep and follow the Mosaic Law, they knew the beginning of God's work with Moses was thru the burning bush, and Jesus put the ax to the root of their tree when in John 8 He said, referring to Himself, "before Abraham was, I am." Jesus clearly was claiming to be God who gave the Law to Moses and even more than that He claimed to be God who was before Abraham...Jesus claimed to be God and aimed that claim directly at the two main roots of Judaism, their Father Abraham and Moses who God used to give them His Law. The Jewish religious leaders became instantly enraged and tried to kill Jesus because He clearly said He is God, the only God, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. They knew exactly what He meant, and if you don't know what He meant it's only because you are choosing to ignore it.....I really don't think you are so dumb that you can't follow the story line.
The Jewish religious leaders used as a legal excuse by Jewish Law to execute Jesus was that He claimed to be God, blasphemy they said. (pardon my grammar in that last sentence, I think the meaning is clear enough, I hate grammatical editing) Jesus made that claim many times in many ways and the Jewish religious leaders repeatedly accused Him of claiming to be God. You might want to read the gospels again, it seems like you have forgotten most of what they say. If your going to claim to know what you are talking about, you need to be able to follow the narrative of the gospels which so far you seem to have little clue about.
You are not a son or a daughter of God even if you switch to your opposite gender account. You have to be born again to be a child of God, born of His Spirit to be like Him in His resurrection. You were born of sinful parents, your are in the family of sin, disowned by God who wants you to be adopted into His family through the price of blood He paid for you when He died on the cross to buy you back from your sin.
The only view your are compounding is imagining that you have the right to exist as a sinner outside of Hell, and compounding your view in the matter is only taking yourself down, shooting yourself in the foot
Jesus says in Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" If Jesus Christ isn't Deity, then why did He include Himself in the Holy Trinity?
Jesus says in John 14:9, "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" Is the Father someone other than Jesus Christ? No, not according to Jesus Christ.
In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." Isn't that clear enough?
Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus was in the "form of God", and that he thought it not robbery to be "equal with God"!
The Jesus Christ of the New Testament claimed to be "one" with God and "equal" with God.
It means what it says. Can't you read it for yourself? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are eyewitness accounts of the words and actions of Jesus Christ. How many eyewitnesses saw God talking to Mohammed to give him the Koran? How do you know it came from God when only Moohommed says it came from God, it says Muhammed is God's prophet, Muhammed says it came from God. Why believe Moohammed? He was only a man claiming things nobody witnessed.
Jesus Claimed Equality with God
Jesus says in Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" If Jesus Christ isn't Deity, then why did He include Himself in the Holy Trinity?
Jesus says in John 14:9, "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" Is the Father someone other than Jesus Christ? No, not according to Jesus Christ.
In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." Isn't that clear enough?
Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus was in the "form of God", and that he thought it not robbery to be "equal with God"!
The Jesus Christ of the New Testament claimed to be "one" with God and "equal" with God.
The "Jesus" of Muslimdom is not the Jesus of the Bible.
"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer. 31:34) According to these words, it is GOD Who has the power and right to forgive sins. However, the New Testament says that Jesus Christ has this power.
Please notice Mark 2:5-11: "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house."
Jesus Christ is God, because only God can forgive sins. It's true that He took on the form of a man for thirty-three years on this earth, but He was still God. He was God manifest in the flesh (1st Timothy 3:16).
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. John 13:13
Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
...Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:5,6
...after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9
God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16
...our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1st Timothy 6:14,15
God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person... Hebrews 1:1-3
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever... Hebrews 1:8
...the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
Simon Peter... through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2nd Peter 1:1
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:16
These verses address everything you are promoting which is Islamic propaganda also used by Jehovah's Witnesses and many other religions including atheism.
in bible adam is son of god jacob is son of god so if u follow god you are his son but not as u imagine so in a way we are all sons of god not phisiqualy of cours
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The Jewish religious leaders knew exactly what Jesus was referring to when He said this, they knew exactly what He meant, they knew He was claiming to be the very God who appeared to Moses in Exodus 3 who said His name is I AM.
Ex 3:13-14: And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. _
The Jewish religious leaders lived on the Mosaic Law, they practiced a religion of self-justification in trying to keep and follow the Mosaic Law, they knew the beginning of God's work with Moses was thru the burning bush, and Jesus put the ax to the root of their tree when in John 8 He said, referring to Himself, "before Abraham was, I am." Jesus clearly was claiming to be God who gave the Law to Moses and even more than that He claimed to be God who was before Abraham...Jesus claimed to be God and aimed that claim directly at the two main roots of Judaism, their Father Abraham and Moses who God used to give them His Law. The Jewish religious leaders became instantly enraged and tried to kill Jesus because He clearly said He is God, the only God, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. They knew exactly what He meant, and if you don't know what He meant it's only because you are choosing to ignore it.....I really don't think you are so dumb that you can't follow the story line.
The reason the Jewish religious leaders used as a legal excuse by Jewish Law to execute Jesus was that He claimed to be God, blasphemy they said. Jesus made that claim many times in many ways and the Jewish religious leaders repeatedly accused Him of claiming to be God. You might want to read the gospels again, it seems like you have forgotten most of what they say. If your going to claim to know what you are talking about, you need to be able to follow the narrative of the gospels which so far you seem to have little clue about.
I'm no fan of Jimmy Swaggart but I will agree with Him in most of his points in the video below where he debates a Muslim. If you watch the video, the Muslim bases all of his arguments on attacking the veracity of the Bible by first attacking the King James Bible trying to disqualify it from being the word of God. If the King James Bible is not the word of God in English, then nothing which calls itself a Bible written in English is the word of God and this line of reasoning is also carried backwards in time to disqualify all of the ancient writings as erroneous since the originals have disappeared.
The unchanging word of God is the most important key upholding the faith of God in Jesus Christ and sadly most Christians today deny this key and allow for multiple versions of God's word which contradict each other giving fuel to the enemy which is Satan who works to keep the light of truth from shining through to the minds he has darkened.
Why do you only focus on Muslims? Is that the only religion you can think of to prove your point? It appears that you're holding onto that idea like a lifeline.
ask yourself this queston..."if Hell is real, why am I not burning in it now?". So far, of dozens of responses, only one has come close to the correct answer.
I have told you the correct answer lots of times. Wtf? If God is real, and hell is real, and we deserve to burn in hell for the sins of Adam, then we are not burning in it because Christ died for us. That is the answer.
That is not the correct answer. And your stupid cussing can get your teeth knocked out in some places.
The correct answer is you are not burning in Hell now because God is merciful. The fact that Christ died for all will not keep all out of Hell, few will repent and believe on Him to be saved, few will receive Him as their Savior.
If you were my monkey, I would have your teeth removed because by your words you like to slash with profanities, as a monkey you would be using your teeth and it would be better for you to lose your teeth than to be put down.
Okay..rude big mouthed miserable childish retarded obnoxious stupid fatty moron doggy idiotic bratty nasty faced dope headed foul mouthed punk fool hater witch fag monkey - let me answer you.
The correct answer is you are not burning in Hell now because God is merciful.
You are changing your story. You keep saying we are all going to burn in hell when we die. The reason I am not there now is because God is merciful? He lets me live for 80 years and then makes me burn forever. Great. Yeah real mercy. You retard.
Anyone who denies the deity of Jesus Christ is NOT saved and does not know the true God of the Bible. There is no other God besides the God of Israel. Please note that I'm not talking about the Zionist/Marxist criminals who've hijacked the nation of Israel and the United States. I'm talking about the God of true Israel. Only born-again Jews and Gentiles are God's chosen people.
Only God Can FORGIVE Sin, and Jesus Forgave Sin
Jesus forgave sin as only God can do. Wicked Catholic priests and evil Lutheran ministers sinfully claim the power to forgive people's sins. You'll burn in Hell if you trust men to forgive your sins. You'd better seek forgiveness from the God-man, Christ Jesus, Who has the nail-scared hands and feet. Only in Jesus' name can anyone's sins be forgiven, for it was Christ Who died for OUR SINS. Even the wicked Pharisees who sought to kill Jesus weren't so wicked as to think that they could forgive men's sins...
Mark 2:7, “Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies?
who can forgive sins but God only?”
As the Bible says, only God can forgive sins, and Jesus is God!!! In Matthew 9:2-3 we read that Jesus mercifully forgave a man's sins and healed him of a horrible disability...
Matthew 9:2-3, “And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.”
Notice that the unbelieving Scribes accused the Lord of blasphemy for claiming the power to forgive men's sins. Ah, but Jesus was God in the flesh and did indeed have all the power of Heaven to forgive sin as only God can. Jesus did NOT give up His deity when He came to the earth; but rather, He humbled Himself as a suffering and obedient servant (Hebrews 5:8; Philippians 2:8).
Only Jesus forgave sin in the Bible (Matthew 9:2). Only God Almighty can forgive sin.
Christians must be prepared to answer the typical objections made against the Gospel. Most of the objections are based on simple logical fallacies. The following is a list of some of the most common fallacies used by Muslims.
Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.
1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.
Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.
Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.
. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.
Circle
If you end where you began, you got nowhere.
Many people think that Allah is the god of the Bible. This book shows why he is NOT!
Examples:
#1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
#2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
#3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.
Christians must be prepared to answer the typical objections made against the Gospel. Most of the objections are based on simple logical fallacies. The following is a list of some of the most common fallacies used by Muslims.
Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.
1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.
Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.
Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.
2. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.
Circle
If you end where you began, you got nowhere.
Many people think that Allah is the god of the Bible. This book shows why he is NOT!
Examples:
#1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
#2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
#3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.
3. False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
Examples:
#1 Many Muslims erroneously assume that Muslims and Christians share the same concepts of God, revelation, inspiration, textual preservation, the Bible, prophethood, biblical history, conversion, etc...
#2 Because a false analogy is drawn between Islam and Christianity, some Muslims think that any argument which refutes the Qur'an will likewise refute the Bible; any argument which refutes Muhammad will also refute Jesus Christ, etc...
#3 For example, many Muslims claim that Muhammad and all prophets were sinless. They even deny that Abraham was an idol worshipper. Thus when a Christian points out all the wicked things that Muhammad did (mass murder, child abuse, lying, etc.), the Muslims will say, "If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."
What he is really saying is, "If you reject my prophet, then you must reject your prophets as well. If Muhammad was a false prophet, then your prophets are false as well."
Author shows that the Qur'an is a disorganized mass of contradictions.
The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a "false analogy."
Whenever a Muslim responds to a Christian attack on the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah by flipping the argument around and applying it to the Bible, Jesus or the Trinity as if Islam and Christianity either stand or fall together, he is guilty of the fallacy of false analogy. Islam can be false and Christianity be true at the same time.
4. The Fallacy of Irrelevance: When you introduce issues which have no logical bearing on the subject under discussion, you are using irrelevant arguments.
Examples:
#1 Some Muslims argue, "The Qur'an is the Word of God because the text of the Qur'an has been preserved perfectly." This argument is erroneous for two reasons:
a. Factually, the text of the Qur'an has not been preserved perfectly. The text has additions, deletions, conflicting manuscripts, and variant readings like any other ancient writing.
b. Logically, it is irrelevant whether the text of the Qur'an has been preserved because preservation does not logically imply inspiration. A book can be perfectly copied without implying its inspiration.
#2 When Muslims attack the character and motives of anyone who criticizes Islam, they are using irrelevant arguments. The character of someone is no indication of whether he is telling you the truth. Good people can lie and evil people can tell the truth. Thus whenever a Muslim uses slurs such as "mean," "dishonest," "racist," "liar," "deceptive," etc., he is not only committing a logical fallacy but also revealing that he cannot intellectually defend his beliefs.
#3 When confronted with the pagan origins of the Qur'an, some Muslims defend the Qur'an by answering, "So what! Didn't you Christians get Christmas from the pagans?"
This argument is erroneous for several reasons.
a. It is a false analogy to parallel the pagan origins of the rites commanded in the Qur'an with the present day holidays nowhere commanded in the Bible. What some modern day Christians do on Dec. 25th has no logical bearing on what the Qur'an commands Muslims to do (eg. the Pilgrimage, the Fast, etc.).
b. It is irrelevant that some Christians choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. Since the Bible nowhere commands it, it is a matter of personal freedom. But Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe and practice many things which came from the paganism of that day.
c. The Muslim by using this argument is actually admitting that the Qur'an was not "sent down" but fabricated from pagan sources. This means he has become an unbeliever (Surah 25:4-6).
#4 Some Muslims argue that the Qur'an is the Word of God because it contains some historically or scientifically accurate statements. This argument is irrelevant. Just because a book is correct on some historical or scientific point does not mean it is inspired. You cannot take the attributes of a part and apply it to the whole. A book can be a mixture of true and false statements. Thus it is a logical fallacy to argue that the entire Qur'an is true if it makes one true statement.
When a Muslim argues that history or science "proves" the Qur'an, this actually means that he is acknowledging that history and science can likewise refute the Qur'an. If the Qur'an contains just one historical error or one scientific error, then the Qur'an is not the Word of God. Verification and falsification go hand in hand.
#5 The present meaning of a word is irrelevant to what it meant in ancient times. The word "Allah" is a good example. When confronted by the historical evidence that the word was used by pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times to refer to a high god who was married to the sun-goddess and had three daughters, some Muslims will quote dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. to prove (sic) that "Allah means God." They are thus using modern definitions to define what the word meant over a thousand years ago! What "Allah" means now has no bearing on what it meant before Muhammad.
5. The Fallacy of Equivocation: If we assume that everyone has the same definition of such words as God, Jesus, revelation, inspiration, prophet, miracle, etc., we are committing a very simple logical fallacy.
#1 When a Muslim says, "Christians and Muslims worship the same God," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. While Christians worship the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Muslims worship a Unitarian deity. Obviously, they are worshipping different Gods.
#2 When a Muslim says, "We believe in Jesus too," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. The "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not the Jesus of the Bible. Islam preaches "another Jesus" (II Cor. 11:4). The Jesus of the Bible is God the Son who died on the cross for our sins. But the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not God the Son and he did not die on the cross for our sins. Thus it is erroneous for Muslims to tell Christians that they believe in Jesus, too.
#3 When a Muslim assumes that Christians have the same concept of revelation as Muslims, he is guilty of the fallacy of equivocation. According to Islam, the Qur'an was written in heaven by Allah and has no earthly sources. When we prove that it comes from earthly sources, this threatens the inspiration of the Qur'an.
On the other hand, the Bible does not claim that it dropped out of heaven one day. It openly quotes from earthly sources. It uses pre-existing sources without any difficulty whatsoever, Thus while the Qur'an is threatened by historical sources, the Bible is actually confirmed by them.
#4 When a Muslims tells you that the word "Allah" has only one meaning: "the one, true, universal God," he is assuming a fallacy. The word "allah" has many different meanings.
a. It can be used as a generic term like the English word "God." Thus it can be applied to any god or goddess regardless if a true or false god is in view. (ex. The "Allahs" of Hinduism.)
b. The Nation of Islam uses it to refer to Wallace Dodd Ford, Elijah Muhammad, and Louis Farrakhan as "Allah" and teaches that all black people are "Allahs."
c. It has been used by some Christians in Arabic speaking countries as a generic name for the Holy Trinity.
d. It was used in pre-Islamic times by pagan Arabs to refer to the moon-god who was the father of al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat.
e. It is used by Muslims to refer to their god.
Islam and Christianity do not worship the same God. The Christian worships the Holy Trinity while the Muslim worships a unitarian deity.
6. The Fallacy of Force: The Qur'an commands Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims and apostates (Surah 5:33; 9:5, 29).
Some Muslims use a false analogy to answer this argument. They respond by saying, "Well, what about the Crusades? You Christians use violence just like Muslims."
It is logically erroneous to set up a parallel between Muslims killing people in obedience to the Qur'an and Christians killing people in disobedience to the Bible. While the Qur'an commands Jihad, the New Testament forbids it.
7. The Fallacy Of Confusing Questions of Fact with Questions of Relevance: Whether something is factually true is totally different from the issue of whether you feel it is relevant. The two issues must be kept separate.
Examples:
#1 When a Christian argues that some of the beliefs and rituals of the Qur'an came from pre-Islamic Arab paganism, the Muslim will deny it at first. But as more and more evidence is given, the Muslim will often do a flip-flop and begin arguing, "So what! Didn't you Christians get Christmas from the pagans?" The Muslim has now committed three fallacies:
a. The "So what!" argument is dealing with the issue of relevance, not fact. You must stop the Muslim at that point and ask him, "Since you are now dealing with the issue of whether the pagan origins of the Qur'an are relevant, does this mean that you are now agreeing to the fact of the pagan origins of Islam?"
b. The Muslim has also committed the fallacy of equivocation, The Bible is not threatened by historical sources. It freely refers to them and even quotes them (Acts 17: 28). But the Qur'an denies that it has any earthly historical sources (Surah 25:4-6).
c. He also committed the fallacy of false analogy. The Bible and the Qur'an are two totally different books. The inspiration of the Bible does not depend upon the fate of the Qur'an because what Muslims claim for the Qur'an is not what Christians claim for the Bible.
7. The Fallacy Of Confusing Questions of Fact with Questions of Relevance: Whether something is factually true is totally different from the issue of whether you feel it is relevant. The two issues must be kept separate.
Examples:
#1 When a Christian argues that some of the beliefs and rituals of the Qur'an came from pre-Islamic Arab paganism, the Muslim will deny it at first. But as more and more evidence is given, the Muslim will often do a flip-flop and begin arguing, "So what! Didn't you Christians get Christmas from the pagans?" The Muslim has now committed three fallacies:
a. The "So what!" argument is dealing with the issue of relevance, not fact. You must stop the Muslim at that point and ask him, "Since you are now dealing with the issue of whether the pagan origins of the Qur'an are relevant, does this mean that you are now agreeing to the fact of the pagan origins of Islam?"
b. The Muslim has also committed the fallacy of equivocation, The Bible is not threatened by historical sources. It freely refers to them and even quotes them (Acts 17: 28). But the Qur'an denies that it has any earthly historical sources (Surah 25:4-6).
c. He also committed the fallacy of false analogy. The Bible and the Qur'an are two totally different books. The inspiration of the Bible does not depend upon the fate of the Qur'an because what Muslims claim for the Qur'an is not what Christians claim for the Bible.
8. Phonic Fallacies: The phonetic sound of a word should not be used to twist its meaning. For example,
a. Some Muslims try to prove that the word "Allah" is in the Greek New Testament because of the Greek word alla. But while the word is pronounced "alla," it only means "but" in Greek. It has nothing to do with the Arabic "Allah."
b. Some Muslims have claimed that the word "Allah" is in the Bible because the Biblical word "Allelujah." They then mispronounce the word as "Allah-lujah" But "Allelujah" is not a compound Arabic word with "Allah" being the first part of the word. It is a Hebrew word with the name of God being "JAH" (or Yahweh) and the verb "alle" meaning "praise to." It means "praise to Yahweh." The Arabic word "Allah" is not in the word.
c. The same error is found in the Muslim argument that the word "Baca" (Psa. 84:6) really means "Mecca." The valley of Baca is in northern Israel.
d. Some Muslims have tried to go from "Amen" to "Ahmed" to "Mohammed!" Such nonsense is beyond belief.
9. "Red Herring" Arguments: When a Muslim is asked to defend the Qur'an, if he turns around and attacks the reliability of the Bible, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Crusades, etc., he is introducing irrelevant issues that have no logical bearing on the truthfulness of Islam. He is trying to divert attention from Islam to other issues.
Furthermore, he is assuming that if he can refute the Bible, then the Qur'an wins by default. If he can refute the Trinity, then Allah wins by default. But this is logically erroneous. You cannot prove your position by refuting someone else's position. The Bible and the Qur'an could both be wrong. Muslims must prove their own book.
10. Straw Man Arguments: When you put a false argument into the mouth of your opponent and then proceed to knock it down, you have only created a "straw man" argument, Muslims sometimes either misunderstand or deliberately misquote the arguments Christians give them.
Example:
Some Muslims have built a "straw man" argument that claims that we teach, "The Qur'an teaches that Allah is the Moon-god and that Muslims knowingly believe in and worship the Moon-god and his daughters." They then knock down this "straw man" argument and claim victory. Of course, we never said such nonsense. What we have said is that while the Qur'an claims that Allah is God and Muslims think they are worshipping the one true God, in reality they are worshipping a false god preached by a false prophet according to a false book.
Conclusion
The average Muslim has been deceived by Muslim apologists who use such logical fallacies without regard to reason, fact or honesty. But there are many Muslims who want to be rational in their religion and thus have an open mind to rational discourse. Once they see that their arguments are based on logical fallacies, they will be open to the wonderful news that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins on the cross.
about this moon god thing hhhh when the prophet mohamed peace be apon him conquered meccca peacefully he destroyed all the stone gods .
and you said he choose the moon god because his tribe worshiped it
i say why then his tribe was the first one who don't believe him his own uncle is the first man who His uncle is the first man who did not believe in his message
8. Phonic Fallacies: The phonetic sound of a word should not be used to twist its meaning. For example,
a. Some Muslims try to prove that the word "Allah" is in the Greek New Testament because of the Greek word alla. But while the word is pronounced "alla," it only means "but" in Greek. It has nothing to do with the Arabic "Allah."
b. Some Muslims have claimed that the word "Allah" is in the Bible because the Biblical word "Allelujah." They then mispronounce the word as "Allah-lujah" But "Allelujah" is not a compound Arabic word with "Allah" being the first part of the word. It is a Hebrew word with the name of God being "JAH" (or Yahweh) and the verb "alle" meaning "praise to." It means "praise to Yahweh." The Arabic word "Allah" is not in the word.
c. The same error is found in the Muslim argument that the word "Baca" (Psa. 84:6) really means "Mecca." The valley of Baca is in northern Israel.
d. Some Muslims have tried to go from "Amen" to "Ahmed" to "Mohammed!" Such nonsense is beyond belief.
If we're wrong in teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, then He must have been wrong in allowing people to worship him. Jesus Himself said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Mat. 4:10) Why would He say this at the beginning of His ministry and then spend His ministry allowing people to worship HIM?
In Acts 10:25-26, and in Revelation 19:10, worship of anyone other than God Himself is forbidden, yet Jesus willingly received worship throughout His public ministry (John 20:28; Mat. 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 28:9; John 9:38). If He isn't Deity, then why didn't He correct those who worshipped Him?
no the Bible is not gods' word, it's God's word. You can't trust the word of a god, like the moon god of ancient tribal arabia when Mohammed got kicked out of Mecca and learned of the moon god, a pagan idol.
