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what happens when you can't prove something that you know exists?
like the non physical realm, we know its there, but we can't prove it with science, only our own experience
checkmate
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Ah Nihilism... Nothing, nada, zip. So if there is nothing and nothing is nothing nothing. What are you? Are you nothing? Does the pain you feel when you stub your toe, or get a paper cut, or get burnt nothing? Is this the fucking matrix and pain is an illusion? Is there pain, or love, or is all that nothing? Remember that feeling you had just a moment ago? Is that nothing too? So everything is nothing and nothing is nothing... lol Side: no
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feelingtruth, there are those, like prodigee, that write off the non-physical truths as being crazy, drugged out illogical lunatics just believe in something for the fun of it. I agree with you feelingtruth, you nailed it. It's obviously obvious that a realm exists that which science cannot detect, I call it "the unknown", as a loosely based phrase. Most atheist like to pull the "god of the gaps" card. As if there cannot be truth without science "detecting it". Side: no
Keep it a secret, or talk abot it as a probable hypothesis depending on degree of mundaneness. For example: descriptions of all three types of deity and two types of corporeal immortals is more hypothetical, and reseach based, so best to research more and find more evidence before you tell anyone. But "there are probably three types of deity, (demon (lhp), enlightened (rhp) and kami (nat))" works fine because most people won't know what the hell you're going on about. Side: yes
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Personally, I dont think it matters if people will believe or not. There are times when you just had to be selfish and ignore the opinion of the world about your personal aspects. Unless your denounce respect and try to drag them to your belief, now thats a topic worth of a facepalm Side: no
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You said "like the non physical realm, we know its there, but we can't prove it with science, only our own experience". Now, prove it is real. There ya go, it's not real, it doesn't exist. Because you made it up! But let's take this in another way. Prove that Oslanir doesn't exist. And so what if I made it up, and so what if I didn't go any further than just the name? You make things up and believe they are real all the time, or that's the impression I'm getting from you anyway, you definitely are too credulous in certain regards. I know what you said is made up, all it takes to fathom that fact is to know sufficiently about our brains and what they are made of. If you think what you made up is real then you must absolutely regard my made up place or thing, or whatever it stands for, the same way. The realm you are talking about does not exist. If we can experience something then it can be measured scientifically. Our minds, our senses are, after all, biological instruments of measurement. Side: no
nummi just because science has not detected something yet, nor have they been able to "physically, scientifically" test something does not make something to be not true. Science is not the end all, it's just the common and most times "reliable" way to prove something exists because it can test it, see it, feel it touch it and all that. However, there are senses that humans cannot detect with their ears, their eyes, that animals can see and hear, and science can use their instruments to test, see, hear these things that without technology, would have been unnoticed by the natural human being. There are things like dark matter, dark energy that humans "know" is there however cannot test them or see them. There are multi-dimensions that we cannot see yet we "know" that there's a "possibility" that is it there. Just has humans whom believe in their god(s), they "know" that there's something there, but they cannot physically see it, touch it, "hear" it. And all they've got is their faith and feelings and intuition. It's like you're saying since the beginning of man, they've been making shit up for the fun of it and none of it is true,. not one ounce, like some imaginary thing there to make them "feel better"... You don't even give them the slightest credit that something could be there, you resort to "No, it's not there because my daddy called science says it's not there, so until my DADDY and MOMMY scientists say that is it there, there's no way." You sound like a child using science in the name of absolute truth, and there is nothing beyond what science knows. Science itself knows that there is an infinite amount of shit that it does not know and wants to understand it, and seeks it, desires it. And so, if science can claim that it does not know everything and never will, this leaves PLENTY room for god(s) to exists. So no, sorry nummi, these claims of your (and others that use it) are weak. Their only basis is "science and thats it, nothing more, nothing less." And you think you're thinking outside the box!? LOLOLOL fucking ridiculous man. Side: yes
Saying just because science has not yet detected something does not make something untrue is the same as saying animals can speak English just as well as we can, science simply hasn't detected it yet. Never mind the physical impossibility of it. Sure, if science hasn't picked something up yet doesn't necessarily mean it's not real, that it doesn't exist. But it doesn't change the reality that fantasy is fantasy. Differentiating fantasy and reality is very easy, for me anyway, for you obviously not. What you experience has either an external cause (from the environment around you) or an internal cause, the internal cause can only be your own mind creating whatever you sense. That's all there is. Our senses, all of them, are biological instruments of measurement. If it can exist biologically it can exist technologically. And so... should speak for itself. Dark matter, dark energy comes from logic. It is logical to conclude that there is something like that. It makes sense. Sure, since, as you say, it cannot be measured it cannot be taken as an absolute certainty, but the fact that it makes sense, that it is logical, it cannot be regarded as less than science fiction, and science fiction is far more than fantasy. Science fiction can be regarded as a real possibility, while fantasy can never be real. Multi-dimensions? What do you mean by that exactly? Humans who believe in gods are indoctrinated or brainwashed, or stupid or insane, or a combination of those. They were raised with religion, and that's the only reason they take it as reality, or they are very credulous and dumb. There is our mind, and our surroundings, and we cannot get any senses from anything or anywhere else. We either perceive something from our surroundings or our mind creates a sense of something with no external cause. The beginning of man. The beginning of our abstract mind, of imagination, of creative thinking. First creation of mind... there had never been anything like it before, they didn't know what it was. It felt real, because they didn't know. They took it as real, they simply couldn't take it any other way. Times went on and more and more was made up, improving, changing, refuting the previous. Then imagination and actual reality began opposing each other as people became more and more aware that things aren't always as they made them up, as they thought they saw them, so they began looking and thinking more carefully. But still, how could they be certain? They couldn't test it, they couldn't know, so what they made up was still fantasy, just a little more believable. But now we can know for certain, we have logic, we have science, we have technology. We can know for certain what is real and what is not, what can be real and what absolutely can not. I don't give them any slightest credit because they do not make sense at all. Also because I can make up so many versions of the same. Because they claim it to be absolutely real, that we can sense them, but with no evidence. We can only sense that which exists within the scope our senses. Do you really think if our senses cannot perceive even half of our own universe they can somehow sense something that exists outside of it? Do you realize how stupid that is? I sound like a child? Really? Just read the above for refutation. Science itself knows nothing. Science is simply humanity's knowledge of the entire existence, as much as we have found out, fantasy not included. Science doesn't claim a thing. My claims are not weak, how could they be? They come from logic. With logic you can determine possibilities and impossibilities. What you claim - fantasy - is impossibility. I've explained god's existence in other debates, to put it short, a god would not be as stupid as you depict it. To put it in another way, a god would not be stupider than I am - something I've seen a god depicted as many times, even most times, if not all times. Not outside the box, it's that I don't have a box. But you do. Enjoy. Side: no
Saying just because science has not yet detected something does not make something untrue is the same as saying animals can speak English just as well as we can, science simply hasn't detected it yet. Never mind the physical impossibility of it. So you're saying that since the beginning of man MANY people have stated that animals can speak english? And so you're also stating and agreeing that it's impossible that animals speak english? You're not making sense. Sure, if science hasn't picked something up yet doesn't necessarily mean it's not real, that it doesn't exist. But it doesn't change the reality that fantasy is fantasy. Differentiating fantasy and reality is very easy, for me anyway, for you obviously not. When does/what evidence states that people believing in god(s) is fantasy? Have people been writing on walls and building pyramids and complex shit because they believe a fucking tooth fairy is coming to grab their teeth!? LOLOL. Where is there thousands of humans claiming this? And also, you state fantasy and reality as if those whom believe do not know the difference. What they believe is reality a part from fantasy. It's real to them and you state it's not real at all. You're going up against thousands of years of development statin what they believe(d) in is false because they cannot differentiate between the two. What you experience has either an external cause (from the environment around you) or an internal cause, the internal cause can only be your own mind creating whatever you sense. That's all there is. Yeah, what's your point? That's always all there is too it....this does not discount the possibility of a god(s). Dark matter, dark energy comes from logic. It is logical to conclude that there is something like that. It makes sense. Sure, since, as you say, it cannot be measured it cannot be taken as an absolute certainty, but the fact that it makes sense, that it is logical, it cannot be regarded as less than science fiction, and science fiction is far more than fantasy. Science fiction can be regarded as a real possibility, while fantasy can never be real. Once again, you claim facts of believers to be non factual because you claim it's not real. Because....why? Oh the standard, "we cannot verify therefore it's not true.." < - - remember the "daddy and mommy" reference... :) Multi-dimensions? What do you mean by that exactly. There is possibility of multi dimensions, so why can there not be logically a possibility of god(s), considering the facts of testimonials, and actuality? In fact, there is more truth in god than multi dimensions. Humans who believe in gods are indoctrinated or brainwashed, or stupid or insane, or a combination of those. They were raised with religion, and that's the only reason they take it as reality, or they are very credulous and dumb. And so those whom were not raise by "religion" were raised by what? What is your answer to that? My answer is that those whom were not raised by religion were raised by atheism or agnosticism, and everything happens after or before. Either way, a random tribe from X, Y, Z still will believe, or not believe, in X, Y, Z. Why pin point religious people to be brainwashed? In your sense, brainwashing goes a far way, including the shit you believe. You're not fucking special. There is our mind, and our surroundings, and we cannot get any senses from anything or anywhere else. We either perceive something from our surroundings or our mind creates a sense of something with no external cause. Perception has many forms and shapes. Just because you cannot perceive something, doesn't mean those that can perceive and do are perceiving fantasy. There is cause in many shapes and sizes. Who are you to say elsewhere or otherwise? The beginning of man. The beginning of our abstract mind, of imagination, of creative thinking. First creation of mind... there had never been anything like it before, they didn't know what it was. It felt real, because they didn't know. They took it as real, they simply couldn't take it any other way. Times went on and more and more was made up, improving, changing, refuting the previous. Then imagination and actual reality began opposing each other as people became more and more aware that things aren't always as they made them up, as they thought they saw them, so they began looking and thinking more carefully. But still, how could they be certain? They couldn't test it, they couldn't know, so what they made up was still fantasy, just a little more believable. But now we can know for certain, we have logic, we have science, we have technology. We can know for certain what is real and what is not, what can be real and what absolutely can not. Science is merely a tool to understanding the universe. Religion is merely a tool to understanding the universe. Logic works in many forms, what's your point? I don't give them any slightest credit because they do not make sense at all. Also because I can make up so many versions of the same. Because they claim it to be absolutely real, that we can sense them, but with no evidence. We can only sense that which exists within the scope our senses. Do you really think if our senses cannot perceive even half of our own universe they can somehow sense something that exists outside of it? Do you realize how stupid that is? Have you ever considered that the many forms and beliefs in X, Y, Z god(s) are cultural, language, and societal differentials due to such said things including language. And that because of this, they're viewing the same thing through filters and lenses, claiming the same god(s)? So to answer your second to last question, YES. Science itself knows nothing. Science is simply humanity's knowledge of the entire existence, as much as we have found out, fantasy not included. Science doesn't claim a thing Once again, just because science doesn't validate something does NOT mean it isn't true or possible. Science claims many things. Gravity, sociology, psychology, astronomy. They say "here's what we've got, and it could change. but here's what we've got so we'll teach this in schools." And you claim it doesn't claim a thing? BULLSHIT. My claims are not weak, how could they be? They come from logic. With logic you can determine possibilities and impossibilities. What you claim - fantasy - is impossibility. I've explained god's existence in other debates, to put it short, a god would not be as stupid as you depict it. To put it in another way, a god would not be stupider than I am - something I've seen a god depicted as many times, even most times, if not all times. Logic is everywhere and can be claimed by many and is common amongst those whom claim it. There are many possibilities and many limitations. A person believing in X, Y, Z god(s) is not limiting. Fantasy is when a person says "I can fly. And if you haven't seen me fly, then you've haven't believed. However, when and how many, people have claimed "to fly" since the beginning of mankind. There is NO writing, literature, testimonials of a dude saying "I am fly" and thousands saying "yeah I saw it fly." Your point in invalid. Not outside the box, it's that I don't have a box. But you do. Enjoy. Hah! There is always a box. We're all a part of the same universe. There are limitations. Fucking deal with it. Enjoy. Side: yes
So you're saying that since the beginning of man MANY people have stated that animals can speak english? And so you're also stating and agreeing that it's impossible that animals speak english? ---------->You're not making sense.<------------ Now you know how I feel while reading your arguments. When does/what evidence states that people believing in god(s) is fantasy? Science and logic. Have people been writing on walls and building pyramids and complex shit because they believe a fucking tooth fairy is coming to grab their teeth!? LOLOL. Where is there thousands of humans claiming this? Well, yes. How many churches and temples and monuments and paintings, and etc. etc. etc. are there ? Quite a fucking much. And all for what? For a made up thing! Not thousands but billions. And LOLOL indeed. And also, you state fantasy and reality as if those whom believe do not know the difference. Oh come on, they take a book that has a talking snake in it as reality. As if it really happened. There's also the flood that is just impossible, where's the water? Fantasy all of it, fiction! If they differentiated fantasy and reality they would, well, differentiate them. But they evidently do not, you included. What they believe is reality a part from fantasy. It's real to them and you state it's not real at all. Because it's not real at all. For something to be real it must exist outside the mind of the person. You're going up against thousands of years of development statin what they believe(d) in is false because they cannot differentiate between the two. Exactly. Back then they didn't have enough knowledge about existence, not to mention the necessary logic, to determine what is actually real and what is not. But now we do. Yeah, what's your point? That's always all there is too it....this does not discount the possibility of a god(s). It was about some people "sensing" a god in their head - their own mind playing tricks on them. Once again, you claim facts of believers to be non factual because you claim it's not real. Because....why? Oh the standard, "we cannot verify therefore it's not true.." They are not facts because they go against logic and so go against reality. < - - remember the "daddy and mommy" reference... :) I disregarded that completely, as it was way too childish. There is possibility of multi dimensions, so why can there not be logically a possibility of god(s), considering the facts of testimonials, and actuality? In fact, there is more truth in god than multi dimensions. I still don't get what you mean by multi-dimensions... Anyway, there is our universe and what it is made of. What it is made of interacts with each other, there is this one realm/plane/dimension where all of it lies, including us. There are no dimensions. For example time and space are not dimensions, they don't exist as anything else but the effect of matter. Matter doing its thing creates time and space the way we perceive them. Time and space do not exist independently, they cannot, it is impossible. Is this what you meant by dimensions - some properties that exist independently? If so then you are dead wrong again. And so those whom were not raise by "religion" were raised by what? What is your answer to that? They were simply raised without them. Like me, for example. My upbringing included no religious crap at all. And as a result I was free to develop my mind on my own. Sure, there were simple things like this is bad and this will hurt and be polite and, you know, the normal things, but that was all. My answer is that those whom were not raised by religion were raised by atheism or agnosticism, and everything happens after or before. You are wrong, again. I was raised without any kind of indoctrination, or bias. I wasn't taught that there is no god, or that there is one, I came up with all of it on my own. So did all my brothers - none of us are religious. Sure, it is possible to raise a person to be an atheist, just as very many are raised as religious, or in any other way. But that's not how it went with me. Why pin point religious people to be brainwashed? In your sense, brainwashing goes a far way, including the shit you believe. You're not fucking special. Because, primarily, only those who are brainwashed or indoctrinated are religious. I don't believe anything or anyone. Special? Of course not, I'm simply another human. But smarter than most others. Perception has many forms and shapes. Just because you cannot perceive something, doesn't mean those that can perceive and do are perceiving fantasy. There is cause in many shapes and sizes. Who are you to say elsewhere or otherwise? Humans are built the same way, all of us, there are only some minor differences, the mind being the biggest. Anything someone else "perceives" is actually made up by his/her mind. Who are you to say otherwise? Science is merely a tool to understanding the universe. True. Religion is merely a tool to understanding the universe. Not true. Religion gives no understanding, perhaps it did a very long time ago but not anymore. If we now have tools of precision why still cling to something so irrational? Indoctrination. Logic works in many forms, what's your point? The only logical part about religion is that it can be made up. But when you begin looking at what was made up then that and those will contradict logic. Side: no
Science and logic. A. Science has not found evidence against the belief in god. Name your sources. B. Logic is everywhere and is found in believing a god as well, you just can't accept that people believe. Well, yes. How many churches and temples and monuments and paintings, and etc. etc. etc. are there ? Quite a fucking much. And all for what? For a made up thing! Not thousands but billions. And LOLOL indeed. You're mad you're not allowing yourself to believe and these god(s) won't show itself to you, cry a river. LOLLOLO Oh come on, they take a book that has a talking snake in it as reality. As if it really happened. There's also the flood that is just impossible, where's the water? Fantasy all of it, fiction! If they differentiated fantasy and reality they would, well, differentiate them. But they evidently do not, you included. Oh using the bible eh? Okay, where is your evidence that the bible then is fiction? There is none. Exactly. Back then they didn't have enough knowledge about existence, not to mention the necessary logic, to determine what is actually real and what is not. But now we do. HAH! You don't think people were smart, had logic and understanding of the world around them? Really? Have you even studied history and cultures from the past? The devices, batteries, pyramids, clocks, the wheel all made BEFORE our beloved technology was there. Your claims are irrelevant. They were simply raised without them. Like me, for example. My upbringing included no religious crap at all. And as a result I was free to develop my mind on my own. Sure, there were simple things like this is bad and this will hurt and be polite and, you know, the normal things, but that was all. Now you're clumping together all those whom were raised in a "religious home" to be bound to a particular system that does not allow for free thinking and for having a minds of its own. What a fucking joke, man. Because, primarily, only those who are brainwashed or indoctrinated are religious. I don't believe anything or anyone. Special? Of course not, I'm simply another human. But smarter than most others. Once again, you are wrong to claim all religious people are brainwashed. Smarter than most, huh? Obviously not smart enough to open your mind to the possibility to deities existing. No nummi, not smart enough. Humans are built the same way, all of us, there are only some minor differences, the mind being the biggest. Anything someone else "perceives" is actually made up by his/her mind. Who are you to say otherwise? Made up? So when I perceive and feel pain, I'm making it up? It actually doesn't hurt me? LOLOL moving on... The only logical part about religion is that it can be made up. But when you begin looking at what was made up then that and those will contradict logic. The logical aspect of religion is that there are almost infinite possibilities, and believing in things that are not right in front of our face is an absolute right given to mankind. Side: yes
Science has not found evidence against the belief in god. Name your sources. Not against the belief... obviously many do believe. Against god and very many things religions and scriptures claim. Against god currently the only evidence is logic. Logic is everywhere and is found in believing a god as well, you just can't accept that people believe. This debate was never about what people believe, it was and is about what is real and what is not. You're mad you're not allowing yourself to believe and these god(s) won't show itself to you, cry a river. LOLLOLO This makes no sense at all. It's also childish. Explain in detail in what way I am mad. Please, do it. You are the one mad here. Oh using the bible eh? Okay, where is your evidence that the bible then is fiction? There is none. There is a lot. It is in fact so obvious that no evidence is required to be presented, all one would need is to know a basic summary of the thing, actually, even that much isn't needed. It is just as much fiction as is Harry Potter, or any fictional work. You're simply in denial, aside other things... HAH! You don't think people were smart, had logic and understanding of the world around them? Really? Are you saying they had science back then? Are you saying they knew how stars form, they knew anything how life evolves, changes. You think they knew about all that? All they had was perception and imagination. So, they saw one or more things and once they began looking for answers as to why and what, they came up with what now is nonsense. In this age you are still clinging to their level of world's understanding, that makes you a moron. Have you even studied history and cultures from the past? There's no point studying them, the basics will suffice and those I've definitely got. The devices, batteries, pyramids, clocks, the wheel all made BEFORE our beloved technology was there. Your claims are irrelevant. I was never talking about some simple buildings and constructions. You constantly misinterpret things so simple-mindedly. You are incapable of grasping what I mean and then you misinterpret them, not just that but completely change the subject. What is wrong with you? While debating with someone on a defined topic do not fucking change the subject! How hard is that to do??? Idiot! Now you're clumping together all those whom were raised in a "religious home" to be bound to a particular system that does not allow for free thinking and for having a minds of its own. What a fucking joke, man. Not a joke at all. Raising with religion is indoctrinating the child, it is biasing the person potentially for life. In what way is that a good thing? Once again, you are wrong to claim all religious people are brainwashed. That's why I said primarily! Learn to read and understand what others say! Smarter than most, huh? Obviously not smart enough to open your mind to the possibility to deities existing. No nummi, not smart enough. I have explained why deities couldn't exist. It's you who's not smart enough to understand it. List all possibilities you can come up with that explain a forming of a deity or deities. Also include why they are deities. And above all else, why they should be regarded as deities and not just intelligent and powerful beings, why not regard them as living creatures just like ourselves? This you will fail at miserably even if you try, you cannot think on that kind of level, whatever level it is. And, oh yes, I am smarter than most humans. Made up? So when I perceive and feel pain, I'm making it up? It actually doesn't hurt me? LOLOL moving on... Again trying to change the subject... I wonder, do you do that from the inability to refute? Or are you simply incapable of following the debate? The logical aspect of religion is that there are almost infinite possibilities, and believing in things that are not right in front of our face is an absolute right given to mankind. "Rights given to mankind"? Dead wrong. No rights are and were given to us. Impossible since there's no god or gods We simply evolved as we did, and made things up since the moment we could. Unfortunately some still make things up and actually believe it and even more believe the previously made up crap. Sure, there are many possibilities, just are there are many impossibilities. There are so many possibilities that if even one of them gets refuted there is still an infinite amount left. Side: no
Have you ever considered that the many forms and beliefs in X, Y, Z god(s) are cultural, language, and societal differentials due to such said things including language. And that because of this, they're viewing the same thing through filters and lenses, claiming the same god(s)? Now you're simply trying to justify and excuse religion and god, as I basically just defeated you. How I know I defeated you? You began talking about cultures and languages, which have no connection to what I said. You simply changed the subject to something else while keeping one thing in common - religion and god. Pathetic. I was talking about senses, about what we can and can not perceive, not about language, not about culture, or anything similar. Translations with absolute precision are very much possible, it is possible to say exactly the same in another language, it may take far more words but is very much doable. Not to mention in present times we have science, everyone can understand it the same. No filters, no lenses, no anything like that. What is not real is not real, is just made up. There are no gods, I'm getting tired of repeating this... So to answer your second to last question, YES. My question "Do you really think if our senses cannot perceive even half of our own universe they can somehow sense something that exists outside of it?" I myself answered it with another question "Do you realize how stupid that is?", which also means, is equal to, NO. Why should I answer it myself? Because the answer is obvious. Once again, just because science doesn't validate something does NOT mean it isn't true or possible. Logic does. Science claims many things. Gravity, sociology, psychology, astronomy. They say "here's what we've got, and it could change. but here's what we've got so we'll teach this in schools." And you claim it doesn't claim a thing? BULLSHIT. Science is simply our collective knowledge about our existence. That's all it is. Anyway, why take this into the debate? It's completely irrelevant. A person believing in X, Y, Z god(s) is not limiting. Fantasy is when a person says "I can fly. And if you haven't seen me fly, then you've haven't believed. It sure is limiting, believing something is taking it as absolutely certain, while having no evidence, while in fact there's so much that says otherwise. It is limiting. Fantasy is also when someone says there's a daddy in the skies but no one hasn't seen him yet. Seeing something is not believing, once you've seen it you know it is real. Knowing is not believing, knowing something involves evidence, believing does not. However, when and how many, people have claimed "to fly" since the beginning of mankind. There is NO writing, literature, testimonials of a dude saying "I am fly" and thousands saying "yeah I saw it fly." Your point in invalid. My point isn't invalid. You have to first refute it, and you haven't done such a thing. You simply cannot accept your own defeat in this debate. Typical of someone religious. After all, there's so much that disproves your religion and despite that fact you still cling to it. Hah! There is always a box. We're all a part of the same universe. There are limitations. Fucking deal with it. There's not a box in my case. I'm open to possibilities. Impossibilities speak for themselves. You are wrong. Deal with it. Enjoy. Side: no
Now you're simply trying to justify and excuse religion and god, as I basically just defeated you. How I know I defeated you? You began talking about cultures and languages, which have no connection to what I said. You simply changed the subject to something else while keeping one thing in common - religion and god. Pathetic. I was talking about senses, about what we can and can not perceive, not about language, not about culture, or anything similar. Translations with absolute precision are very much possible, it is possible to say exactly the same in another language, it may take far more words but is very much doable. Not to mention in present times we have science, everyone can understand it the same. No filters, no lenses, no anything like that. What is not real is not real, is just made up. There are no gods, I'm getting tired of repeating this... Lol. I did not change the subject at all. You're not understanding the point. BECAUSE there are many cultures and languages, and BECAUSE there are many gods within those societies, is a fact that perhaps everyone is talking about the same DEITY yet BECAUSE there are different cultures and languages, it makes it seem like there are a billion gods worshipped; different languages call the same god(s) differently BECAUSE there are variety of people in this world. Can you wrap your head around that? I admit no defeat, this is not a game or war. My question "Do you really think if our senses cannot perceive even half of our own universe they can somehow sense something that exists outside of it?" I myself answered it with another question "Do you realize how stupid that is?", which also means, is equal to, NO. Why should I answer it myself? Because the answer is obvious. The only thing thats obvious is that you asked your own question and answered it, nothing more nothing less. The content means nothing. Just because you can't perceive something outside of your world does not mean there is isn't something there to be sought after and understood. Logic does. Logic comes in many shapes and sizes and forms and does NOT state there aren't god(s). Science is simply our collective knowledge about our existence. That's all it is. Anyway, why take this into the debate? It's completely irrelevant. You claimed science doesn't claim a thing. Thats bullshit. Science claims many things. It sure is limiting, believing something is taking it as absolutely certain, while having no evidence, while in fact there's so much that says otherwise. It is limiting. Fantasy is also when someone says there's a daddy in the skies but no one hasn't seen him yet. Seeing something is not believing, once you've seen it you know it is real. Knowing is not believing, knowing something involves evidence, believing does not. Believing is something is having faith in what's not there. You obviously have a problem with this. You have a problem with people believing without a doubt that something is there. Until you personally can show the world that what these people believe in is not there, these claims of your are irrelevant. My point isn't invalid. You have to first refute it, and you haven't done such a thing. You simply cannot accept your own defeat in this debate. Typical of someone religious. After all, there's so much that disproves your religion and despite that fact you still cling to it. A. You don't even know which religion or beliefs I follow. REFUTE. B. I do not need to claim defeat, especially to an atheist like yourself. Lest anyone for that matter. I have not been defeated, therefore no sense in claiming it. Where have you defeated me? No where. There's not a box in my case. I'm open to possibilities. Impossibilities speak for themselves. You are wrong. Deal with it. Enjoy I'm open to possibilities as well, however we are human and humans are limited. I am not wrong. Say that over and over and over and it will start to lose value. Side: yes
Lol. I did not change the subject at all. You're not understanding the point. You did change the subject! I was talking about the senses we have, not about language or cultures! Logic comes in many shapes and sizes and forms and does NOT state there aren't god(s). Yes it does. A "god" would not be as stupid as to have itself regarded as a "god". A being that smart and powerful would not even show itself to someone as inferior as us, would not allow any hint about it get to us. Which in turn means that everything we "know" about one, or many in our case, is all really made up by us. After all, how do small-minded people regard those who are in positions of power, or who present favorable qualities, or who are famous? They are regarded as "superior", as someone to worship, and, to the individual regarding those persons that way, this is negative. A "god" you so very much like talking about would be above that, would understand the negative effect of its presence, and so would remove itself and allow us to mature first. And then, if was still lonely and wanted company, would reveal itself to us when we were mentally ready, ready to view such a creature as equal. Can you understand what I just said? There is no god, never has been, never will be. You claimed science doesn't claim a thing. Thats bullshit. Science claims many things. Science claims nothing. Science is simply our collective knowledge that we change if necessary. Only those that regard some things with absolute certainty claim this and that, even with evidence to the contrary, like religions and scriptures. Science is nothing like. Believing is something is having faith in what's not there. In what way is that a good thing? In what way is it good to be absolutely certain in something that doesn't even exist? This, what you said, is the definition of being delusional! In what way is it good to be blind? Sure, people are naturally "blind", as we have to find things out for ourselves, and we do. But then there are these morons who simply believe and never bother questioning or criticizing or trying to answer questions. Belief and faith gets us nowhere but back to stone age. You obviously have a problem with this. You have a problem with people believing without a doubt that something is there. That's being delusional and insane - believing, even with the presence of evidence to the contrary. The only problem I have with believing, with willful blindness and so willful ignorance and stupidity, is that so many people can be described using the word. Until you personally can show the world that what these people believe in is not there, these claims of your are irrelevant. Personally? Moron. Logic will, should, suffice. I'm not the one persistently adhering to delusions, you and very many others are. So many have explained to you, provided you evidence showing you are wrong, and you still believe! You are either stupid, delusional, insane, brainwashed, indoctrinated, or any other descriptive word like that, or many at once. Ignorance is not among them, as there is so much information available. If at all then your claims are irrelevant. You don't even know which religion or beliefs I follow. REFUTE. Doesn't matter which. They're all of fantasy. So, not refute at all. I do not need to claim defeat, especially to an atheist like yourself. Lest anyone for that matter. I have not been defeated, therefore no sense in claiming it. Where have you defeated me? No where. You should, perhaps then you could move on to correcting yourself. I'm not an atheist, I don't call nor regard myself as one. Nice bias by the way... You have been defeated, and I did it yet again. Like your perseverance, despite logical opposition, with your religion, you also don't admit defeat. Consistent mentality, but unhealthy. I'm open to possibilities as well, however we are human and humans are limited. True. Not the part about you though... I am not wrong Yes you are. Say that over and over and over and it will start to lose value. No, it will not. As you wouldn't listen either way. Side: no
nummi, all I read is you saying "don't change the subject" when the context I use in particular circumstances, this being one of them, goes from this way or that way, you say "don't change the subject". I never changed the subject, I added to it with relevant information for the subject at hand, you do not see this. You claim "I was talking about this.." and so when I respond you say "Don't change the subject because I was talking about this..." That's retarded, nummi. I doubt you see the issue here, okay moving on.. You think every religious person is a brainwashed lunatic searching and believing in something that isn't there, fine, nothing new here. However, your logic and reasoning why there is no god(s) is simply "there is no ("scientific") evidence" for a god(s) to exist, so therefore there is no god(s). And the evidence that you speak of that's "lacking" is basically the lack of physical evidence. Am I correct? And so, simply because a person believes in a god and claims X, Y, Z evidence, you claim "It's not enough, there is nothing to support your claims." And then a believer will state X, Y, Z evidence and you'll say "Those are not evidence for your claims." Then the believer will say "Just because you do not "see" (insert human senses here) the evidence of the existence of a god, nor can give evidence against the existence of god(s), does not mean the evidence that which I've got, and millions of others, does NOT mean there is no god(s). And so as you call it fantasy, I could call you dumbfounded, flabbergasted, and living in a world where "faith" means nothing to you. Yet, when I person believes in X, Y, Z god(s), you get offended somehow, as if humans haven't been doing this since the beginning of mankind, as if humans are not curious, and if the creative mind of a human has nothing to do with our inner psyche and inner self. Has science not gotten to where it's at due to curiosity? Are you not aware that the same, SAME curiosity is what brings humans to believe in any god(s)! And so, I say fuck you for desiring to KEEP curiosity to yourself. You fucking selfish, hurt prick. I digress. And finally, you claim those whom believe do not have a sense of creativity, of logic, or rational, of being "open-minded", when really, people like you are the ones being closed-minded. You claim "they (including me), I (me)" aren't listening. When I am listening, crystal fucking clear (you think you're the only one whom thinks like you, PFFFF), you are the one not paying attention to detail. Though, you claim something that requires detail. And so perhaps I know the way you think more than the way you think you know how I think. Get that shit, nummi? Side: yes
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You're making a completely false equivalency in between human emotion and the non-physical realm. Emotions are a product of the physical. There are chemicals and synapses which are more or less active in various parts of the brain. This is neither "unknown" nor is it beyond the realm of the physical. I might as well say that clouds are invisible and dogs only exist in my imagination. Side: no
Read what iamdavidh said. What you said does not reflect reality. There is no nonphysical realm. You've been refuted in this many times before. Why keep believing it so persistently with evidence and logic proving it unreal? Your mind has no connection to anything beyond our universe, beyond your immediate surroundings through all the senses. As I said to another one. Do you really think if our senses cannot perceive even half of our own universe they can somehow perceive something that's outside of it? You do realize how stupid that sounds? Side: no
If you cannot prove its existence then you either must admit that it may not exist, or admit you may be insane. It is a fact, if you cannot prove it, then whether it exists cannot be known. There is no way around this fact. If your mind does not allow you to question it, your mind is broken. Side: no
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