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This is what creates frustration and anger when debating Liberals.
when we dont fit into your cookie cutter fox news prepackaged liberal box? When we stop you mid script to explain how youre misrepresenting our views and telling us what we believe when we dont actually hold those beliefs?
How annoying it must be to have to talk to actual humans who dont just let you project your stupid caricature on them.
Most of you deny supporting these radical Liberal positions of the Democrat Party, YET YOU STILL VOTE FOR THEM!
How do you know who i voted for? I literally voted for a several republicans at my state and local level.
You have no idea who the fuck i am or what i believe so stop pretending you do. You cry about how youre a conservative victim and the big bully liberals are after you, but did you ever stop to consider that you and i could be ALLIES on certain issues? Did you ever think that maybe i actually agree with you on some things? Maybe if you stopped running your mouth for six seconds we could establish some things we agree on and you could actually make an ally instead of an enemy for once.
You say you do not agree with Trans talking with our children in public schools, yet you vote for these Liberal Democrats who can not make a speech without pandering to their LGBT base.
I think gay people should be able to be married and have the same rights as everyone else. I think people who are gay or trans should not be denied things like housing or adoption on the basis of their identity.
That being said i dont like gay or trans media or entertainment. I find drag tasteless abhorrent and i dont think it has any place around children.
I support politicians who support the things i stated above. There is no "put drag queens in libraries" bill at the federal level. Thats more of a town or state issue and so i voted for republican selectmen and such.
See how that works?
Have you ever spoke out to these Democrats you vote for and tell them you do not want LGBT groups going into our public schools, talking with our impressionable children?
Yes actually i have. In anonymous correspondence.
Do you ever speak to the vast majority of Democrat Congressmen who vow to keep No Restriction abortions legal?
No because i really do not care about that issue one way or another.
Speak out! Tell them you will no longer vote for them until they stop supporting the deaths of viabe babies for any reason!
No. That's your pet issue not mine.
Do these viable lives mean so little to you that you say nothing to the ones you vote to?
Yes actually. Im not religious in any way whatsoever. 90% of abortions take place within the first 3 weeks of pregnancy. The vast astronomical overwhelming majority of abortions are done on clumps of cells that dont have a single working organ let alone a brain and a consciousness. None of the fetuses who are aborted will ever exist to have known they were aborted and frankly the woman's bodily autonomy rights would override its own will anyways. For the 1000th time i will repeat these arguments ive already made to you that you never address.
The majority of the other 10% of abortions are done in emergency situations to save the life of the mother.
Youre main issue is obsessing over the 1-3% of abortions that happen every year that are late and not for any medically necessary reason. And i really just do not care about the issue whatsoever
It's people like you who ignore this new age Democrat Party's extremism, and continue this Political correct nonsense being shoved down the throats of every American.
You ignore the republican party launching every large scale war since WW2, 2 of which were for false pretenses and all of which were complete failures that put over 14 trillion on the national debt. What about THAT extremism?
You cry about "oh wahhhh a liberal told me to say happy holidays instead of merry christmas" (which nobody actually does by the way) and you ignore 200,000 dead civilians minimum in iraq. You ignore massive oil and weapon deals with saudi arabia as we grow closer and closer to the nation with the religion that YOU hate the most.
You honestly think the main threat to this country's stability is college kids throwing milkshakes for some gay rights cause when we have massive attrocities, waste, and corruption right in front of your face.
Honestly take the damn blinders off and see the big picture.
Yes, there are issues we would agree on, and I would respect you for those issues IF you refused to vote for the ones pushing these issues.
So its not enough that i work with you in the areas that we do agree, i also have to pledge to not vote or support anything you dont agree with.
How about no?
Just be honest and admit what you would say to me if I voted for an admitted KKK member. You would call me a racist for electing a man who would further his racist positions. You would be correct, but when it comes to what you support with your vote, you deny it.
I mean yeah but thats a pretty extreme example. Like, i dont agree with republicans on most issues but we agree on immigration. So youre free to vote for whoever you want and on the issue of immigration we can agree in a bipartisan way. Nobody has to abandon their party or beliefs just to work together on a specific issue.
Until you are honest with what you support, there can be no intelligent debate.
There is no such thing as a perfect political candidate. There only ends up being 2 people at the end of a primary for the presidential race and you have to pick one. So you yourself have undoubtedly voted for someone that you had disagreements with. Its impossible to have a political candidate that believes exactly what you do on every issue. Even trump you have to admit has at least one position you disagree with.
I care most about healthcare policy, environmental policy, and worker/union rights and wages in a 21st century economy. So if i agree with a candidate on all of those issues but i disagree on their abortion stance im still gonna vote for them. Because they have more pros than cons for me.
Thats how it works. So yeah ive voted for people that i dont entirely agree with. It has no bearing on what i actually feel about an issue just like who you voted for has no bearing on how you actually feel about an issue.
The candidates we vote for dont speak for us, the represent us. Theres a difference there.
Those of us who live in a world of humanity will NEVER be off the issue of abortion.
I didnt say you had to stop caring about it. I was simply pointing out that this is a debate site to discuss things with other people and literally nobody wants to discuss that topic for the 23009565th time. So every time you post something about abortion youre wasting your time typing it out to an empty room. Literally an empty room. because you ban everyone.
Which makes me curious. How come I'm not worth debating and responding to inside your debates but you love debating and responding to me outside of them? Its so weird.
That would be like saying those who opposed slavery years ago should have gotten over it.
No its not because i didnt tell you to get over it or stop caring about it. I just said nobody here cares to discuss it with you so its pointless to keep bringing it up
Nobody ever brings up the topic to you. We always start out discussing other topics and then you just drag the conversation to abortion and we repeat the same argument weve had 60000 times. You say the same talking points. I use the same arguments. Nothing changes. Its a waste of time.
You are free to be pro life and fight for it in your personal life and do whatever you want. Im simply telling you nobody here really cares to discuss it.
The Democrat Party was telling Republicans to get over it, it's a boring issue.
Pretty sure its alot more complicated than that. but again not pertinent to what i actually said
Should we have accepted Jews being killed by Nazi's? Maybe a year later we should have stopped talking about it, because it's a boring issue.
Again, not even remotely pertinent to what i said.
You are showing your true colors. The colors I speak out to, and the reason those on the Left demonize me. I shine a light on your inhumanity.
Here you go working yourself up again over something i didnt say. This entire post is you strawmanning me and then exaggerating that strawman until youre red in the face. Just calm down and read what i am telling you. Im being explicitly clear.
I truly laugh every time I listen to fake news and people like you spew the utter nonsense of how Trump and Conservatives are racist.
I never said trump is racist and i never said all conservatives are racist. I never made that statement and i never would.
What i did is ask you why does every white supremacist vote republican? What do they have to gain by doing so?
Is that not a legitimate question?
Your only logic is that racist's vote for Republicans in larger numbers.
So you agree thats the case. Is that not something thats worth pondering?
That is the same logic you were just ridiculing me for. You are lumping Conservatives and Trump in with racists because racist's vote for them.
No i am not. What i would say is that because all the racists are voting for republicans then its stupid to assert that democrats are the party of racism.
That was the point i was making. But for entirely separate reasons yes i do believe trump is mostly unintentionally bigoted. I attribute most of the things he does or says that could be construed as racist more to his stupidity than to actual racist sentiments.
I give facts to what I say about the Democrat Party. You give leftwing rhetoric about Republicans.
Bullshit. I directly cited how your cariacature of obama "flip flopping" on gay marriage was entirely misleading. You just give blanket statements that ALL democrats support open borders and ALL democrats support non restricted abortion which again is so easily proven wrong. I gave you clear maps of democratic states with abortion restrictions. I have yet to have any citation for any information youve ever given. Not one time have you cited a source.
Funny how under Trump, we have record low unemployment for Black people, while under Obama we had record numers of Black people on food stamps!
They inherited very different economies. Presidencies do not exist inside a bubble. They do not all start with the same issues to deal with.
Who truly cares for Black poeple other than getting their Government dependent votes.
When obama took office it was over 8% unemployment. When he left office in the end of 2016 it was 5%. He lowered unemployment by 3% over his term.
Youre just exaggerating and 90% of this post was a strawman
If i come back in another year will you finally be off abortion? Its such a goddamn boring issue to discuss over and over again.
And buddy cmon. Of course the republican party doesnt openly stand for "racism". But you have to ask yourself how come literally every single white supremacist votes republican?
Ive heard you claim the democratic party are the ACTUAL racists because they want to keep black people on the government plantation or whatever that dumb argument is.
So if thats the case and the real racists are all on the left then how come the actual openly racist organizations are on the right?
How come whenever its the left the racism is all super secret and behind closed doors, but on the right its the dudes who openly wear klan robes.
So like there are racists on both sides but the left leaning ones are just more sneaky and nefarious while the right wing ones are more bold?
Help me out here i just cant wrap my mind around this phenomena
I literally did not say a thing about the conservative stance on transgenderism. Go ahead and quote where i misrepresented the conservative stance.
Youre so pent up with partisan rage that you saw just the word "trans" and projected what you imagine your own caricature of a liberal would say onto me.
By the way this happens to be an area where i personally am more right leaning. Kids should obviously be taught generally to respect all people but drag queens in libraries is just retarded. There is way to much exposure to sexually explicit concepts in some of these very socially liberal areas.
I also dont want evangelists going into schools as well. I dont want anyone teaching my kid anything other than the school curriculum frankly. I can parent my own kid when it comes to tolerance.
See this is what im talking about. Theres numerous issues where we might actually agree. But youre so quick to project every horrible belief about left wingers onto me and you just assume im the exact liberal fox news told you about.
What you and many on the Left do is to insult and ridicule Conservatives for speaking the truth of what the Left truly stands for, LONG before they will ever admit it.
When you deserve it yes. But you crying about this is hypocritical considering thats literally all you do, alone, in your isolated bubble debates. Half of everything you say is insults and ridicule. You engage in it so stop crying about it. We will insult you, you insult us, thats fine. We can all insult eachother dude. But you just pretend like only the left does it and its absurd. Just join the poo flinging insult party with the rest of us instead of pretending like youre above it.
You and others attacked me for telling the truth of what your deceptive Party actually stood for behind closed doors.
Correction: we calmly and clearly articulated why your points are demonstrably wrong. And then you behaved like a child and continued to just huck baseless accusations at "the left" which is some amorphous blob you made up to include anyone that isnt your exact brand of republican.
It's obvious how phony those on the Left are. They constantly deceive people by saying they are for or against something, when they know it is a lie.
Bernie sanders is for medicare for all. As i literally just stated above you hurl another baseless accusation at "the left". Like, who is the left? Can you please define that concept please? Where does the left start and stop exactly.
Obama said he was against Gay marriage just before he got elected. He knew that being Pro Gay marriage might cost him the election, so he pretended to be against it. PHONY!
As i explained in numerous paragraphs in my response one elected official does not represent the left. What obama said and did is irrelevant. We did not elect him spokesperson for anyone who is left of center. Yeah obama made a cheap political calculation, and? You are the party that believes gay people should have no marriage rights and you personally believe they should be put in camps and reeducated. So for you to take the highground over the left on gay marriage is adorable. Sure he made a hacky political calculation, hes a politician, they do that. But he ultimately ended up legislating in a pro lgbt way so youre not really making a strong point.
He instantly changed his toon after getting elected. That's not Progress, that's a deceptive Politician.
Youre entirely twisting what i meant. I specifically explained that its unfair to blame the party or the "left" as you call them for what obama did. As i explained above yes he made a cheap political calculation. I am agreeing with you. I never said that was progress.
Progress would be moving from the democratic party of 1950 which was anti gay marriage to 2019 where lgbt rights are a significant part of its social platform. Progress is longterm.
These same lying Democrats have told us time and time again how their goals are not to take our guns. The same way that Obama lied about Gay marriage, they lie about their true goals of taking our guns.
Obama didnt have anything to do with gay marriage being implemented you know that right? And youre acting like his support of gay marriage comes out of nowhere suddenly after hes elected. It really didnt. He didnt openly support same sex marriage until 2012 AFTER Joe Biden announced his support for it. Prior to that he made several changes like repealing dont ask dont tell and reaffirming support and rights for civil unions.
Youre acting like Obama was totally anti gay and then the day he got elected he said "mwahahaha i was secretly pro gay all along!". He was quite clearly pro lgbt rights and civil unions and it took over 4 years and many other people around him coming out in support for him to change his mind. He wasnt one of the first democrats to support it he was actually quite late to that.
Your entire framing of obama and the gay marriage stance is a joke frankly.
When the time is right, they will come out of the closet as with every other phony stance. They are coming out of the closet once more while people like you insult us for telling the truth!
I insult you for the laughably and EASILY demonstrably wrong things you say. Like, it takes half a second of thinking critically or searching on google to prove most of what you say entirely false. That is why you get insulted. You hold laughably wrong beliefs about the world around you. Your beliefs are driven by partisan outrage and paranoia which drives you to abandon occams razer and see conspiracies where there are none.
Some of the Democrat Presidential candidates are already telling us they want to take our semi automatic hunting rifles.
And there are others on the same exact debate stage that openly disagree with that position. The left is not a monolith.
You say it is simply changing times. I say HOGWASH! They know exactly what they stand for but refuse to be honest with the people.
Well you're wrong so idk what to tell you. If youre going to say that politicians lie and withhold information then yes of course many of them do. That isnt a thing that's exclusive to the left.
But if you're going to say its hypocritical that 30 years ago the democrats were against gay marriage and today theyre not then thats just dumb. Thats the distinction im making
It is not called Progress when politicians lie to the people. It's called corruption!
Also question, do you think its corruption to take large contributions from special interests like military equipment manufacturers, oil companies, and pharmaceutical corporations? Serious question.
You have got to be kidding me when you sit there still denying how the vast vast majority of Democrats support No Restriction abortions every time they elect those who tell us they will keep it legal. GIVE ME A BREAK!
"no restriction abortion" was from one bill in one state and i dont know if you were paying attention but it got widely slammed by a good segment of the left. Why would you expect to understand what liberals and democrats talk about when you only visit right wing websites?
IT IS NOT JUST A FEW DEMOCRAT pOLITICIANS WHO SUPPORT THIS INHUMANITY!
yes it is. The vast majority of blue states have abortion restrictions well before viability and have zero bills up for debate to change that. You are entirely making up this mass-unified support for no-restriction abortion. There is no consensus among the party officials and there is absolutely zero consensus of any kind among the democratic voter base. I have yet to speak to one person on the left to any degree who supports such a concept. I know its anecdotal but ffs youre deluded on this point.
Almost the entire Democrat Congress supports killing viable babies for any reason!
Yeah not even remotely close
When you elect them, you might as well be killing those viable babies yourself.
So if all i care about is trade and i vote for a democrat but they happen to do some abortion stuff i didnt support thats my fault? That's dumb. By that logic your support of bush was you killing iraqi civilians yourself.
Try being honest whith what you support just once in your denying life.
Its a malformed question. The USA is a capitalist free market economy. Norway is a capitalist free market economy. But these two economies are far from equal. They differ in size, they differ in what they import and export, theyre shaped in that way by the culture and people and resources of the land. They differ in laws and regulations on labor, wages, unions, monopolization, debt, trading, hiring, etc to a tremendous degree.
So is "capitalism" a meritocracy? It really doesnt make sense to frame it at that level. You really gotta compare systems to each other under the economic philosophy and structure of capitalism. You could also say capitalism compared to other general descriptions of other economic systems is a meritocracy. For example authoritarian communism such that it assigns occupations is less of a meritocracy than any general conception of capitalism.
And beyond that I dont know how you'd measure such a metric in a percentage. Unless it was something like, what percentage of american citizens experience a pay raise or promotion in their lifetime. Or something like that. Then maybe youd have a number.
Speaking more to the general topic the US economy is a weak meritocracy. Its a meritocracy with unequal opportunity. A race where every person technically has the same racetrack but everyone starts at different starting lines. I think that's pretty obvious. Yes I do believe any person no matter how low they start can work hard enough to sustain a living. Every person no matter how destitute does have the resources via the state and their own physical and mental ability to carve out a BASIC lower class paycheck to paycheck life (barring any severe physical or mental trauma of course).
Its clear that there are classes. And opportunity and level of meritocracy are different depending on your class. The poor are fighting over different resources and opportunities than the middle class are and the rich are.
A middle class person can easily recognize the difference in merit and opportunity between themselves and a poor person. However two middle class people cannot easily recognize such a difference in eachother. The barriers preventing them from becoming rich are seen as equal.
The lower you start the more exponentially harder you must work to climb the system. If you start poor it will take you likely your whole life of work to get to the middle class. If youre middle class it will take you your entire working career to maybe reach the top 10-5% if youre lucky. But for the rich you start at the end of the race. You are born at the finishline. You have to do 0 hours of work to attain wealth. Unless youre unhappy with your wealth and want even more wealth. But the way in which youre going to go about attaining that wealth is vastly different than the middle class person.
The middle class person is going to go to college or a trade school. Study hard, get a job or apprenticeship, work hard, take loads of overtime, suck up to the boss, get a promotion, work even harder, skip out on having kids or skip out on seeing them much, save money and be frugal with spending, outwit and outcompete dozens of other applicants and coworkers, and then emerge as the manager or high level employee somewhere making a nice 6 figure salary.
The rich person having already been born rich goes to the best schools for free and graduates with 0 debt. So he doesnt get set back 20 years paying off loans like the middle class person did. In fact he doesnt even have 0 debt because he paid it off with his parents money, he has 0 debt because the University of Columbia didnt even charge him for admission. Because his parents are well-known alumni.
So he gets a free ride to the best school and graduates with Cs and a couple Bs. His mediocre grades and high level connections get him a high level position on the board of one of his dad's company or his dad's friend's company. He makes a 6 figure salary day one. On his 25th birthday he cashes in the multimillion dollar bonds that his family and friends have set aside for him since he was born and he buys a house 3 times bigger than the middle class person's house. By age 40 he's been given 14 pay raises (even on the year where he made an illegal business decision that lost thousands of customers money and important services) and retires. He takes his multimillion dollar fortune and puts it in a hedge fund portfolio managed by his own private manager. He does almost no work whatsoever as his money makes money for him. He lives off the interest alone for the rest of his life and passes the money on to his children who will repeat the cycle.
Sure this is an exaggeration. but the thing is, its only a small one. This is pretty much how it works. The money is trickling up and staying up. And its clear that the rules are different depending on who you are.
Public opinion changes over time. Youre just describing social change. Hey guess what has happened every single year since the dawn of humanity? Social change.
Republicans used to make the argument that public funds are going toward abortions. Leftists would then counter that by saying the Hyde amendment prevents that. Which is true and is still true.
TODAY things have CHANGED. Society has progressed and now a majority of people, at least on the left, have no problem with public funds going toward abortion services. That is the new position that the left has moved to. You are free to disagree with that. You are free to argue against that and run on pro-life policies and try to win elections. Thats fine.
Why do you think things dont change over time? Thats kind-of what liberalism IS. It changes, it progresses, it reexamines its beliefs and evolves with the times. Yes liberals used to believe that tobacco was healthy for you. Because EVERYONE at that time believed tobacco was healthy for you. That doesnt mean liberals have "flip flopped" on the health effects of tobacco.
The same with trans people. Yes liberals used to be anti trans people. Because EVERYONE in society was anti trans. The stance on trans rights didnt use to be a point of disagreement for the left and right. NOW it is. Because people change, the world changes, society changes.
People die out and new generations rise to power. The liberals of 1930 set the benchmark for what liberalism "IS". But they are dead and gone now. So the liberals of TODAY now get to decide what liberalism is. The same has occurred in the republican party too. Beliefs and issues and stances change over time.
Youre trying to hypocrisy-burn an entire side of the political spectrum and it doesnt work that way. If a single person says today "i will never drink alcohol ever again" and then tomorrow they have a beer they are a hypocrite. They have contradicted their declared stance.
But a political school of thought and a political party doesnt change in that way.
For example, Barack Obama became president and became the leader of the democratic party. He pushed an individual mandate healthcare system. So the individual mandate became the official healthcare stance of the democratic party.
Today we have people running for president who want medicare for all instead. Medicare for all is now the official healthcare stance of the democratic party.
Does that mean the democratic party is hypocritical? NO! Obama and the current democratic candidates are NOT THE SAME PERSON. They are different people with competing ideas about what is right and wrong. People disagree WITHIN the parties and pull them to the left or right on a smaller scale and you just refuse to acknowledge that.
If Rand Paul rose to power in the republican party and legalized marijuana does that mean the republican party and mitch mcconnel are hypocrites? No. Because it wasnt their idea. They didnt flip flop on their own ideas, the party had its official position changed by an external force.
"Do you remember when liberals told us they do not support the unrestricted late term abortions of viable babies?"
I remember the present day where that is still the case. There is massive contention within the democratic party and the left as a whole on this issue. Just because a couple democratic representatives came up with policies for late term abortion doesnt mean that the entire party and the entire side of the political spectrum is on board with it.
I can do this same thing to you. "I remember when republicans said they wanted to protect due process and gun rights. Now they wanna pass red flag laws".
That is the same thing you just did to me.
Im sure that YOU and many republicans ive spoken to do not support trumps idea for red flag laws and other gun control. Trump does not speak for every republican on this issue right? Thats the same for abortion on the left. Dont attribute the beliefs of certain elected officials to over 160 million people.
Not even close. Trump has countless clear and demonstrable failings. A tireless record of being abject shit. Obama made some questionable policy decisions but the right NEVER made any legitimate criticisms. They made up bullshit about how he was weak militarily while he ramped up the drone campaign 90%. They say he crashed the economy some how even thought he doubled the market and cut the deficit in half. They shit on obamacare even though individual mandates are THEIR idea for healthcare reform and various republican think tanks and politicians pushed for it and drafted papers on it. They made up conspiracies about how he was born in kenya and fabricated old newspapers and his short AND longform birth certificates. They said he wanted to take away guns when virtually no gun legislation of any kind was passed over his 8 years. The made up lies about the iran deal saying it was gonna help iran get a nuke when it did the exact opposite. They also lied about obama giving iran 150 billion dollars as if it was from our US treasury when it WASNT our money it was irans money that we froze.
And then you had just limp dicked pop news garbage like him wearing a tan suit, or saying happy holidays or some trash that nobody serious gives a fuck about.
I give obama a C+ for his presidency policy wise. He was solid but nowhere near perfect and has many things worthy of criticism. The wallstreet bailout was horrible, he continued status quo foreign policy including getting us involved in Syria, he passed nothing in the wake of sandy hook, he caved on a public option with regards to obamacare.
But you wont find ANY of these legitimate criticisms in right wing circles. They choose fabricated bullshit over any kind of legitimate criticism. Meanwhile trump tweets or does some shit every other hour that they wouldve crucified obama over and they literally couldnt care less. There are over a dozen indicted or convicted persons from his closest circle and theyre still repeating the "nothing burger" mantra.
The modern right wing is a collective of hyper partisan, fearful, paranoid, uninformed, overly confident, zealously anti intellectual fucktards.
Anyone who isnt that is at least able to admit Trump has made SOME mistakes.