Doe you think Israel is one of the best countries
yes
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no
Side Score: 41
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"With its $3 billion annual aid package, Israel today receives more aid on better terms than any other nation in the world. "...Israelis are living beyond their means, and [...] they depend on U.S. aid to be able to do so. If this fiscal irresponsibility continues and the flow of aid ever stops, Israel’s lack of economic self-sufficiency could jeopardize its stability." This hardly qualifies Israel as 'completely independent'. Not that I believe Jews are inherently unsafe outside of Israel, but since about 1928 there has been a 'safe' haven at the Jewish autonomous region at Birobidzhan in Russia. And finally, all countries have there own brands of 'freedom' and 'justice'. Side: No
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Saying Israel is one of the best countries in the world is a LOT different then saying it is better then its surrounding countries. Is it a utopia compared to some of its neighbors? Hell yes. However when compared to the global powerhouses im not sure Israel makes the top 10. It has has a adequate economy and a well trained military, so it does well enough for its own good. Side: No
It's a nice place to visit (which I just did for two weeks, so I would know)... wouldn't want to live there. The bottom line is that if they don't work out a political settlement with the Palestinians to establish a two state situation then the long term prospects for the country are extremely bleak. The Palestinians are fast approaching majority status in the region. Israel will be increasingly hard pressed to maintain legitimacy as a democracy if they continue to consider a large subset of the local population to be a part of Israel but not a part of the voting population based on their ethnicity. They can't just run the West Bank and Gaza as some kind of permanent refugee camp/ghetto which is kinds sorta but not really under it's own governance forever and ever. It's not going to work. If they give all those Palestinians the vote in Israel... in the very near future Israel stops being a Jewish state. So they either go two state, or they become increasingly illegitimized as a functional democracy in the eyes of the global community, or they give up on the idea of Israel being a Jewish state at all. It's just that simple. The only one of those I see as being viable is the two state solution, but every time someone tries to push them in that direction their right wing politicians have coronary events and start accusing the entire planet of anti-semitism or something. And in the meantime they just keep letting the settler lobby walk all over them and make eventual negotiation of any two state solution more and more impossible. (And no, I'm not suggesting only the Israeli's are to blame for the situation. Anyone who's gone through an office safety orientation that includes directions to the nearest hardened bunkers in case of rocket attack is unlikely to think there's only one belligerent party involved here... but the Israeli's are in the position of power, and that puts them in the drivers seat with the responsibility for making things happen if they want them to happen.) Side: No
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gcomeau.....as long as you are eighteen in Israel and are a citizen......YOU CAN VOTE. They do not deny Muslims a vote...Palestinians a vote. I know this......because my husbands family is Jewish and some live there. For Muslims...to vote and be part of a country that is hated by the majority of their own people..........is denying and not honoring Allah. In fact where else in the Middle East can Arab women vote? I can't stand it when people make wrong statements like you did that show Israel in a bad light. S.F.'s newest consul enjoys being Bedouin, proud to be Israeli / Ishmael Khaldi, who began life as a nomad, is first Muslim envoy to rise through ranks. Let me ask you this.....can Jews vote in Palestinian elections? Where in the ME can Jews vote......own land.....worship like a Jew? Israel is a tiny tiny presence in the ME........which is huge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 1,571,198,000 .........billions around the world. What is the Jewish population? "The worldwide Jewish population is 13.3 million Jews. Jewish population growth worldwide is close to zero percent. From 2000 to 2001 it rose 0.3%, compared to worldwide population growth of 1.4%.' http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ So there are 13 millions Jews around the world.......how many left in Israel? "Metropolitan Tel Aviv, with 2.5 million Jews, is the world's largest Jewish city. It is followed by New York, with 1.9 million, Haifa 655,000, Los Angeles 621,000, Jerusalem 570,000, and southeast Florida 514,000." So you have this tiny country....whose inhabitants...number NOTHING against the Muslim population. Incredible that there are so many anti-semetic people...who jump on the bandwagon...of those who want them dead. What you people do not get here.....is that they DO NOT WANT TO SHARE THE LAND. lmao..........hahah............. They don't want the Jews there. There will never be a solution to this. Side: yes
gcomeau.....as long as you are eighteen in Israel and are a citizen......YOU CAN VOTE. They do not deny Muslims a vote...Palestinians a vote. I know this......because my husbands family is Jewish and some live there. For Muslims...to vote and be part of a country that is hated by the majority of their own people..........is denying and not honoring Allah. In fact where else in the Middle East can Arab women vote? I can't stand it when people make wrong statements like you did that show Israel in a bad light. Yeah... Residents of the West Bank? They're NOT CONSIDERED CITIZENS OF ISRAEL. So they don't get to vote in Israeli elections. So 80% of the Palestinians in the region are denied votes in those elections. And yet Israel will not allow those same Palestinians to form an independent state of their own and freak out at the mere mention of any UN resolutions pushing for that option. They can vote on the "governance" of the west bank, but until statehood is allowed that's basically a joke so your question about whether Jews can vote in those elections is pointless. Try learning something about the region yourself before criticizing others for making "wrong statements" that aren't wrong. Oh, and thanks for proving my earlier point about how when anyone even mentions a two state solution, which is the only way Israel is going to survive as a legitimate Jewish state: Incredible that there are so many anti-semetic people...who jump on the bandwagon...of those who want them dead. ...they're immediately called anti-semetic. Gosh, never saw that one coming. Side: No
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Isreal is fast becoming lunatic state that thinks it has free reign to do as it pleases, it is also racist state as it grants Jews greater rights than arab(muslim and christian) Isrealis, and these policies and the right wing government in power there means this extremism is rapidly seeping its way into the culture. Side: No
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ABsolutely wrong. The lunatic states are the ones who are Muslim. The Arab states want them ALL DEAD. This is not about land and rights...its about Jewish survival. Wouldnt you think that any of the ARab states would take the Palestinians in? ARe you kidding me....no one wants them...because they use them as tools to show the world their plight. It would not matter one bit what the Jews did, or gave them.......it never would be enough. Tell me Gary.......which Muslim states allow foreigners, in this case Jews to own land? Participate in government? Have freedom of speech? Respect their worship? NOT ONE WOULD ALLOW ANYONE TO DO THIS...let alone Jews. They are hated people, not only by Muslims but Muslim sympathizers......if the show fits I guess. Maybe you are unaware but the Koran teaches that Islam supercedes both Judism and Christianity and therefore Islam can't tolerate another religion sharing political rule. So let me get this straight....the Jews should allow Muslims to be involved in politics...but its ok that in Islamic countries...they exclude everyone else from participation? "Within five years we will have 6-7 million Arabs living on the West Bank and Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbekians, and Ukrainians as Jews we can import all kinds of Arabs. We plan to ILIMINATE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ESTABLISH A PALESTINIAN STATE. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. Jews will not want to live among Arabs… They will give up their dwellings and leave for the United States. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem." And who said this? Arafat after he won the peace prize. Unbelievable. Considering that the land in which they occupy is less in size than New Jersey, that their population is only around 6,352,117, that they have a total population: 95.4% literacy rate and the fact that they have about a 100% winning track record on the wars and conflicts they have fought……..I’d say they were doing ok. They have survived against the huge numbers of the hostile nations that surround them.and prospered while doing so. I give them a lot of credit. No other nation should tell them what to do, especially the United States. The Israeli declaration of independence calls for equality between Jews and Arabs in Israel which includes arabs being voted into the Israeli parliament. As i said gary how many Jews serve in the government of the surrounding arab countries? If Israel really was in a war of extermination against the arabs, then why do arabs serve in the Israeli parliament? Side: yes
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"ABsolutely wrong." I respect your right to disagree but even you must know how hollow that statement is. "The lunatic states are the ones who are Muslim." Again your religious hatred seeps into your argument. "The Arab states want them ALL DEAD." Your one hate filled person. "This is not about land and rights" Actually thats pretty much exactly what its about, without being too simplistic, as there are other factors. "Wouldnt you think that any of the ARab states would take the Palestinians in?" Given that most of their governments are dictatorial and authoritarian, and that they were made that way by western power (mainlu US) as dictatorial regimes are corrupt and thus pliabkle whereas democratic regimes demand economic independence (which the US doesn't like as it tampers with them raping the coutnries resources) and equal rights for its citizens (which costs money that the US want funnled to them with the ruling elites of those countries profitting massively from the suffering of its citizens. Now that doesn't mean that these coutnries have refused palestians (the ones that wanted to leave that is), Jordan currently accomodates over 2 million palestians refugees that were forcibly removed from homes that they inhabited in Isreal for centuries, and Lebannon have over 1/2 a million, thats not to mention that mass exodous of palestians that travelled to south america (mainly chile), really you couldn't be more wrong on this piont, firstly the reason some arab countries refuse them is because they are ruled by corrupt totalitariann regimes propped up by the US, secondly many arab do accept them and examples i cited are noly the tip of the iceberg, and thirdly most palestians don't want to become refugees in a foriegn country they want to stay and fight for their homeland that was stolen from them. "because they use them as tools to show the world their plight." Wow. "It would not matter one bit what the Jews did, or gave them" Actually it really would, especially in the eyes of the international community, the world court, the UN etc. etc. In fact it would matter a great deal. "Tell me Gary.......which Muslim states allow foreigners, in this case Jews to own land? Participate in government?" Your taking about despotic regimes that re clearly quite fucked up, the thing you need to ask yourself is how they got that way, who exactly was preventing democracy in those coutnries, again if you are serious resaerch you will learn that the US has been systematically preventing democracy in those countries for decades, instyalling pyuppet governments against the will of the majority in order to serve their ownn interests. " Have freedom of speech? Respect their worship?" This may have been true of Isreal before (to a certain extent) but it most certainly is not now. They call themselves the only democracy in the ME, that is complete lie, they are stones throw from become as extreme as some of their extremem ME neighbours. "They are hated people, not only by Muslims but Muslim sympathizers" The people who hate the Jews merely for being Jewish are in a minority, this is fact, most people hate the state of ISreal for its actions, this is another fact, like of lump it. "Maybe you are unaware but the Koran teaches that Islam supercedes both Judism and Christianity and therefore Islam can't tolerate another religion sharing political rule" You the product of the increasing xenophobic and religiously prejudiced undercurrent sweeping iots way throught he western world (nowhere more pronounced than in the US). "So let me get this straight....the Jews should allow Muslims to be involved in politics...but its ok that in Islamic countries...they exclude everyone else from participation?" You don't even know what you are taking about and you clearly don't understand democracy. "And who said this? Arafat after he won the peace prize. Unbelievable." Ya Henry Kissinger won one as well despite that fact that he is a mass murderer, and Obama picked one up just for becoming president and has subsequently helped launched an illegal intervention in Libya, whats your fucking piont? "I’d say they were doing ok" Ya somehow i think the aid the US sends them every year plays a part in that, you know how they won the 1967 war, the US gave them the largest consignment of military aid in history, and basically said you can have whatever you need to be victorious, so when they faced off against Egypt and Syria they were armed with the most sophisticated military technology available at the time, and as much of it as they required, the US gives Isreal more aid every year than all other coutnries combined, they give them a truly disgusting amount of military aid, every year, they arm them with military technology that they don't even share with their western allies (even Britain), so really ask yourself that question again in the light of these revelations, do you think they would be doing ok without this? also keep in mind that the US granted them the technology to develop of 300 nuclear warheads, as in the WMDs that Saddam was supposed to have, and i have no doubt that SIreal is capable of using them, even if they had no moral justification, and to be honest the only justfication would be if they were being completely destroyed, but that doesnt make western media as they know ISreal isnt going ot use those weapons against a western country, it will be an arab country or else Iran, that why its not important. "They have survived against the huge numbers of the hostile nations that surround them.and prospered while doing so." Yes and thats entirely due to the aid given to them by the US and nothing else " I give them a lot of credit. No other nation should tell them what to do" Of course you do you're a religious extremist. "As i said gary how many Jews serve in the government of the surrounding arab countries" Ho0w many those arab regimes you hate so much were not created by the US? "The Israeli declaration of independence calls for equality between Jews and Arabs in Israel which includes arabs being voted into the Israeli parliament" Isreal has already begun undoing most of this. If you think Isreal is so fair and equal in their rights please read this: http://www.rense.com/general93/inst.htm "If Israel really was in a war of extermination against the arabs" I never said they were in war of extermination aginst arabs, where the fuck did you get that from, you can't just make something up and then claim your opponent in a debate said it you know, show me a statement where i even insinuated something as ridiculous as this. Side: No
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"As well, any country trapped in a war that's been going on for centuries can't be the best." I don't buy onto this notion that Isreal are involved in some religious war thats been going for centuries, there has been constant (sometimes periodic) territorially disputes since 1948 due to the fact that the indigenous population was displaced when the state of Isreal was established, to claim that the fighting between these peoples has been going on for centuries i beleive is a complete falsehood, its used by people who want to justfiy the fact that a lasting peace has never been attained in the region despite the fact that this has never been an impossible goal. It is also a myth that is perpetuated by religious extremists, and im sure Fox News have taught all their viewers this lie;) It seems that our previous posts are beginning to make more and more sense, first you say you have no strong feelings towards the Isreal/Palestine conflict, and i beleive you, i really don't think you do but the views you hold on topic could easily be characterised as being shaped (or at the least influenced) by pro-isreali propaganda, which im sure there is no shortage of on Fox's programming. Side: yes
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if you googled what the ARab leaders say about the conflicts they will all tell you its about this religious feud going on. It is about Sarah....ABraham, Hagar and their children. And the question........who did God give the land through.........Hagars son, Ishmael or Isaac. This is very much a religious war to all Muslims and Jews. Side: No
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"Its been trapped in war for so long because countries without freedom tried to destroy them" Its been trapped in a war for so long because it refuses to give the Palestinian people there freedom and basic human rights. "Because there jealous." yes thats it go back to sleep now. "So if other people are jealous of them. they have to be great then." Wow. Side: No
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Haha no! Only jews would think Israel is the 'best country'. They are a terrorist state, there is no excuse for bombing and killing innocent cilvillians...which they do. The jews have been exiled from every country they have tried to settle in through out history. There is good reason for this. Look at the wars they start! there is nothing good with their ideologies. though i have a jew friend as people they can be great like any people from any country....but Israel as a country....no thanks. Side: No
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