CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
Of course. I'm curious as to why someone would think they don't. Perhaps there are individuals that might be supporting environmentalism for less than noble reason (although I cannot think of what these reasons might be) however, I would say that most environmentalists, by definition, care about the planet.
"I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet.You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced." George Carlin
I love George Carlin as a comedian. I think he is hilarious and often insightful about modern culture. If you begin taking comedians too seriously though, you're libel to get laughed at.
Carlin's "argument" is that the planet itself cannot be harmed by humans. I would agree if we are going with the literal definition of planet. The piece of rock orbiting around the sun will be just fine regardless of what we do. This is true. If this is what you meant when you said that they don't care primarily about the planet then I would have to agree.
My assumption though, was that you were talking not about the condition of the rock on which we reside, but the environment (in other words the living things on the earth). Now Carlin talked about how humans aren't really responsible for the extinctions of other species, and though the points he made were funny and entertaining, they were far from accurate. Surprisingly enough, comedians don't get peer reviewed...imagine that?
So yes, if we look at the cosmological picture, nothing really matters. Humans will eventually die out and the entire universe will eventually decay until there is nothing but darkness. But here on earth, we do care, even if in the grandest sense nothing matters.
As far as the selfish part, I'm surprised you would make this argument. The entire idea of capitalism, and why it works is because people are looking out for their self-interest. You and I both know that this actually is a very good thing, because it allows for effective and efficient use of resources. The reason people are proponents of capitalism isn't because they are greedy (like far left socialists would have you believe) but because everyone benefits from it. The added bonus is that personal liberty is also maximized under a capitalist system.
Environmentalism is similar in that it looks to maintain our own self interests: making sure we don't have a shitty dystopian future where we have to wear oxygen tanks to breathe (exaggeration of course), but it also involves the moral obligation that many environmentalists believe we have toward the other species on this earth (we dramatically changed their environments and many are now dying off). In other words, just like how capitalism has an objective function (it works) and a subjective function (freedom), so too does environmentalism have objective (protects our environment) and subjective (maintaining the biodiversity of our planet).
Now the main reason I disagree with your premise that most environmentalists are selfish is that it doesn't really make sense when you look at time scales. Let's say everyone decided to just say: "fuck it, who gives a shit. Let's just ignore the environment and live our lives without worrying about any damage we may do to the planet (euphemism for living organisms, not actual ball of rock)." While we may see some negative effects in our lifetime, the majority of these negative issues would be felt by future generations. I always kinda liked this quote:
"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."
Now I understand that some people don't like being told what to do, so I try not to preach, but I do attempt to help the environment in my own actions and support politicians who try and enact "green" policies. But maybe that's just because I'm selfish ;)
Oh come on, I bet you care a little bit. If you were walking somewhere and you saw some trash on the street relatively close to a trash can, you wouldn't even consider putting it inside?
No, I really don't. I am a economics guy at heart.
If you were walking somewhere and you saw some trash on the street relatively close to a trash can, you wouldn't even consider putting it inside?
Considering, I really don't care, and I am not going to pick up trash for some lazy or inconvenienced slob. Does that mean I carelessly don't throw my away? No, I throw it away and if it misses, then I will pick it up.
They only care about living in their own little clean habitat where they don't want to be personally inconvenience by dirty polluters.
So you're arguing that living in pollution is a good thing.
They just feel guilty about the perceived destruction of the Earth, so they have to pawn it off onto those who don't feel guilty.
So you're arguing that we shouldn't feel bad about harming our environment.
I guess this is how libertarians deal with the failure of capitalism. The Earth is getting polluted rampantly and corporations actively campaigned against cleaner technologies, which flies in the face of the whole libertarian "let the market magically solve everything" idea. So rather than admit failure, it must be our fault for wanting a clean place to live.
Complaining about chemical byproducts in your blood? You pussies! Dirty air giving you asthma? Move away! Marine life dying from an oil spill every few years? Who cares? Buy more oil! The planet's fine! Burn toxic waste! Dump it in our rivers! Why should we be guilty for using our land that we own as we see fit??
So you're arguing that we shouldn't feel bad about harming our environment.
I certainty don't.
I guess this is how libertarians deal with the failure of capitalism.
Then, I am going to guess that since you have a computer, access to a interest, and use this site, you are doing pretty well. You have capitalism to thank for that.
The Earth is getting polluted rampantly and corporations actively campaigned against cleaner technologies, which flies in the face of the whole libertarian "let the market magically solve everything" idea. So rather than admit failure, it must be our fault for wanting a clean place to live.
Market did solve it. You are free to purchase sun panels or wind turbines and install them on your roof or in a field or conceive your apartment community to invest.
Please go live in a wasteland then. A clean place to live is more important than your petty ideology.
Then, I am going to guess that since you have a computer, access to a interest, and use this site, you are doing pretty well. You have capitalism to thank for that.
You mean science and engineering. Oh, and thank the military for ARPANET, and university adoption. Still not relevant to the topic however.
Market did solve it. You are free to purchase sun panels or wind turbines and install them on your roof or in a field or conceive your apartment community to invest.
I'm just going to leave these links here. I think they underscore why what you just said is a joke.
It would be funny, like debating with your average nutter, if it wasn't for the fact that the kind of stubborn ignorance you have threatens our health. Freedom means nothing if we're all coughing up blood and suffering cancers.
Please go live in a wasteland then. A clean place to live is more important than your petty ideology.
I already do, yet waking up to the fresh smell of smog can lighten anybody's day.
Why do those links have any relevance?
In just in case, if you don't have solar panels, since your love for the environment is so strong, I am sure you already have some, if not go to Solar Panels Sharp has good deals right now.
It would be funny, like debating with your average nutter,
Take a look in the mirror to see who is the environmental nut.
if it wasn't for the fact that the kind of stubborn ignorance you have threatens our health.
How does my viewpoint threat your health? I am not a public official who can makes decision towards any change.
You are the one who is hellbent on saving the planet.
They are examples of the market not working, and in fact worsening things.
In just in case, if you don't have solar panels, since your love for the environment is so strong, I am sure you already have some, if not go to Solar Panels Sharp has good deals right now.
Solar Panels are wasteful for the cost of manufacturing them.
Take a look in the mirror to see who is the environmental nut.
Wanting clean air, water and land isn't nuttery.
How does my viewpoint threat your health? I am not a public official who can makes decision towards any change.
It is representative of a group of outspoken and motivated individuals who are working against technologies and regulations for a cleaner planet.
You are the one who is hellbent on saving the planet.
I could care less about saving the planet. It's going to be here for billions of years, and has survived asteroid impacts and chunks of itself flying into space. I would like to be vocal so that the human race might survive. Constant pollution and mass extinction is only going to wipe us off the earth's surface. Then nature will take its course as if we never existed. I don't want this.
Solar Panels are wasteful for the cost of manufacturing them. Wanting clean air, water and land isn't nuttery.
So,if solar panels are a waste, then what do you want for clean air, water, and land. What could you want more. Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act and Clean Drinking Water Act.
It is representative of a group of outspoken and motivated individuals who are working against technologies and regulations for a cleaner planet.
I am in no group. I only care about cheap energy.
Constant pollution and mass extinction is only going to wipe us off the earth's surface. Then nature will take its course as if we never existed. I don't want this.
What does it matter? Humans will not out survive the planet nor the solar system and those won't survive the galaxy and so forth. The universe will eventually come to an end.
So,if solar panels are a waste, then what do you want for clean air, water, and land. What could you want more. Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act and Clean Drinking Water Act.
You invest in technologies that pollute less, and continue to do so for the next generation and so on until the technologies are clean. You support legislation that raises the standards for pollution control for companies. You support laws that encourage transitioning to cleaner technology, even if the first adopters have to pay a little more.
Biotechnology is very promising for engineering organisms that can create fuels necessary for powering our nation. There are also technologies like fission, water-based solar, wind, and so on. These are cleaner than petroleum-based technologies and energies.
What does it matter? Humans will not out survive the planet nor the solar system and those won't survive the galaxy and so forth. The universe will eventually come to an end.
Then go ahead and slit your throat. A defeatist attitude just hastens our demise.
We only invest in new technologies when it is economically more efficient than fossil fuels. Right now, it is not. Alternative energy is great. I can wake up without the smell of smog, but I know that is not cost efficient, at least not yet.
You support laws that encourage transitioning to cleaner technology, even if the first adopters have to pay a little more.
What the poor? They can barely afford it now. What is your solution? Let me guess. More taxes and subsidization.
Then go ahead and slit your throat. A defeatist attitude just hastens our demise.
We only invest in new technologies when it is economically more efficient than fossil fuels. Right now, it is not. Alternative energy is great. I can wake up without the smell of smog, but I know that is not cost efficient, at least not yet.
Oh gee, that couldn't be because our capitalist big oil companies have spent billions trying to impede research into alternative fuels, now, could it?
Nuclear is very affordable, wind is affordable, ethanol could be better.
What the poor? They can barely afford it now. What is your solution? Let me guess. More taxes and subsidization.
Better budget allocation, really. We spend tens of billions of dollars on war, we could use that money to subsidise alternative, cleaner technologies for companies.
that couldn't be because our capitalist big oil companies have spent billions trying to impede research into alternative fuels, now, could it?
That maybe so, but remember in 2008 when gases prices were sky high, and everyone complained about the gas prices, and people started to look for alternative cars with different energy sources.
Well, the market forced people to look, and it worked until the demand of oil went down, and the supply climbed and prices dropped again to the average $2.00 range, and it remains there because of the bad economic conditions.
I would support a shot term government subsidization of new car companies to research that only produce vehicles with alternative energy sources for the current small demand because it would force the big three car companies to research more than previously, and later they would have to compete with the new alternative car companies with the Japanese companies.
Although the hybrid is good, I am guessing that you want more, so the big three don't research for real alternatives for energy in cars because there is no to little demand for these cars. For example, Ford, Chrysler, nor GM make a compatible car to the Toyota Prius. The only one is the Honda Insight.
The Ford, Chrysler and GM had a good grip on the auto industry in America and the world for some 60-70 years until the the emergence of Japanese auto industry.
Ford, Chrysler and GM still are the only major American car producers whereas there are 7 major car producers: Honda, Toyota, Daihatsu, Nissan Mazda, Mitsubishi and Subaru. The competition in Japan is immense. Since Japan car producers came to America, they just have simply outperformed the American automakers. Why? Can you guess. Competition.
The market is more staunch than one industry, and until more and more people demand the new alternative technology through alternative vehicles, the oil industry will linger, and government coercion of alternative energy will not work.
How can you force people into commerce? Oh, wait, government is starting already.
Better budget allocation, really. We spend tens of billions of dollars on war, we could use that money to subsidise alternative, cleaner technologies for companies.
Sure, the war is senseless, but what good will that do, most of the money being spent on the war is borrowed.
The market is more staunch than one industry, and until more and more people demand the new alternative technology through alternative vehicles, the oil industry will linger, and government coercion of alternative energy will not work.
You know, when the energy crisis of the 70s happened, the Brazilian government took initiative and moved towards ethanol. Now, all cars in Brazil use Ethanol as fuel, with legacy converters in certain cases. The country is free from foreign oil's control, and actually sells its off shore oil to other nations.
However our nation is so deep in the pockets of foreign oil that we just can't seem to get out of that dependency. Honestly, how is it that a third-world, developing nation full of utter poverty and just recently free of military dictatorship was able to beat a world superpower in developing alternative energy and converting all its vehicles towards the fuel's usage?
It boggles the mind.
You know that by supporting foreign oil, some of our money is funding terrorism, and Islamisation of the west? Is this a backwards relationship or what?
Sure, the war is senseless, but what good will that do, most of the money being spent on the war is borrowed.
You, know that United States uses 20 million barrels of oil a day while Brazil only uses 1/10 of that at 2 million. Therefore, it is much easier for Brazil to convert over than for the United States. Oil
Plus, the United States is still the world's largest ethanol fuel producer in the world.
You, know that United States uses 20 million barrels of oil a day while Brazil only uses 1/10 of that at 2 million. Therefore, it is much easier for Brazil to convert over than for the United States. Oil
Do I really have to point out the error in reasoning here, for you?
Read your argument over. It's pretty obvious.
Plus, the United States is still the world's largest ethanol fuel producer in the world.
Again. Look over your statement and think about what it means.
That was my point. We have a bigger population and economy.
The amount of barrels consumed is proportionate to the number of vehicles using them. There isn't a surplus of oil that prohibits finding alternatives.
So this point of the US needing more oil isn't very important.
Secondly, we have the largest ethanol production but it's insufficient by far for our vehicles and equipment. Brasil was able to obtain complete coverage of needs despite having less ethanol.
Agreed. The idea that there are tariffs on how much pollution a company can produce before being fined a certain amount is ridiculous. What's worse, is that companies who are good at decreasing the amount of pollution their company emits can take their tradable permits and sell them to another company who isn't so good at decreasing the quantity of pollutants in both the air and the water.
honestly, we're not getting very far on the whole sustainability thing.
There are some who really do care, but there are others who are just trying to make a political statement, trying to shove the blame onto somebody else.