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I am a Christian I am an Atheist
Debate Score:15
Arguments:19
Total Votes:19
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 I am a Christian (7)
 
 I am an Atheist (7)

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Is Christianity to Blame for the Crusades and Is Atheism to Blame for Nietzscheanism?

For those unfamiliar with Nietzscheanism, Nietzsche disregarded morality because there was no God and therefore no basis. Nietzsche thereby influenced people like Hitler. Hitler's "catholicism" was strictly political. That's the line of thinking most Christians take anyways.

I am a Christian

Side Score: 8
VS.

I am an Atheist

Side Score: 7
2 points

At the time of the crusades the Byzantine Empire was in danger of being lost. After four centuries christian enclaves in Palestine, Syria, and Egypt, North Africa, Spain, and Asia Minor had been overrun.

The Emperor of Constantinople began the crusades by calling upon western forces to help defend christianity against further invasion.

Side: I am a Christian
14giraffes(87) Disputed
1 point

There is a whole lot more to the crusades than "Christianity" defending itself from invasion. "Christians" killed innocent Jews and did unspeakable things. My understanding of the situation is that these people were nominally "Christian" and not truly "Christian". Atheists like to respond that this is a not true scotsman fallacy, but the definition of "Christian" has always been "Christ-like", therefore not true scotsman fallacy doesn't apply when the definition is original and unchanged.

Side: I am a Christian
Jace(5211) Disputed
1 point

There is no singular, original, and unchanged understanding of what is "Christ-like" and so no singular conception of "Christian" either. Your argument is a No True Scotsman Fallacy, but I hardly expect you to yield to reason at this point.

Side: I am an Atheist

Christianity is a disgusting religion. The bible is an awful book, both the Old and New Testament are despicable. Although I do not believe the Christians were to blame, it was absolutely the Muslims fault. It was them who invaded the "holy land", usurping it's Christian Byzantine rulers and denied access of it to pilgrims. The Muslims brought the crusades upon themselves however during the crusades the Christians also persecuted innocent Jews.

Side: I am an Atheist
14giraffes(87) Clarified
1 point

"Buddhism" reinforced the Japanese military in WW2 in the training of killing, leading to the deaths of many Chinese, etc,... Is that Buddhism's fault? I don't think it is, but I see a parallel with the crusades where you have so called "Christians" committing similar acts with reinforcement of so called Christianity. "Christian" has always meant "Christ-like" and there is plenty of biblical evidence that Jesus was a pacifist. Same is true with Buddha of course.

Sources:

Zen at War, by Brian Daizen Victoria

Zen and the Samurai, by D.T. Suzuki

Side: I am a Christian
1 point

Forgive me but I am pretty sure that Buddhists were persecuted in Imperial Japan. Furthermore what the Japanese did in ww2 would have happened with or without Buddhism. The Crusades would not have occurred if it weren't for Islam and Christianity.

Buddhism can not be used to support violence because it is the antithesis of Buddhism. There is not a word of Buddhist scripture that encourages it, there is plenty of violent stuff in the Bible and Quran.

I simply do not believe that Buddhism can be blamed at all for any violent act because non-violence is a pillar of Buddhism. The Buddha condemned ever committing any violent act, under even any circumstance.

Side: I am an Atheist
1 point

OP: You have absolutely no idea what you are on about.

1. Nietzsche was not a nihilist; in fact, he opposed the nihilistic perspective he identified in his philosophy. He defined early nihilism and identified it as a threat to the existing social and moral order organized around the Judeo-Christian god.

2. Nihilism does not derive from the rejection of god. Rather, the negation of god is a consequence of the philosophy of nihilism which itself emerges from the basic premise of categorical negation. Likely, you have learned your incorrect view of the philosophy from an oft misrepresented quote from The Gay Science in which the character observes that "God is dead"; this is a foretelling of the consequence of what nihilism will bring, not the other way around. (^)

3. Neither Nietzsche nor nihilism supported the Nazi ideology. It is common knowledge that Nietzsche's anti-Semitic sister edited and censored his writings to utilize them for the Nazi party, and that Nietzsche actively repudiated in writing both that misrepresentation and the ideology of the Nazi party. (^) It is abundantly clear that neither nihilism nor Nietzsche's own views were part of the Nazi ideology, certainly no more so than the Bible and Christianity were.

4. Atheism and nihilism are quite simply not interchangeable. Neither follows from nor guarantees the other.

I suggest that in the future you actually read the relevant subject material before misrepresenting both history and rudimentary philosophy.

Side: I am an Atheist
1 point

He didn't actually say Nihilism. Your post becomes hard to separate at that point.

Side: I am an Atheist
Jace(5211) Clarified
1 point

I recognize that, but any confusion is owing to the original erroneous conflation of Nietzsche and nihilism and atheism into the non-existent "Nietzscheanism" by OP. Perhaps I could have been more explicit when cleaning up the semantic mess OP created, but here it is belatedly:

My first point responded to the apparent conflation of person and philosophy.

My second point addressed the misrepresented nihilistic ideas which OP had also conflated with Nietzsche. Basically, where OP wrote "Nietzsche" what was actually meant was nihilism due to the act of conflation. If one prefers, simply resubstitute the erroneous and fictitious "Nietzscheanism" in where I wrote nihilism (even though that would be a less accurate reference).

My third point addresses both the philosophy of nihilism and the person of Nietzsche because both have been inaccurately associated with Hitler and the Nazis, and due to the aforementioned conflation of the two it was difficult to understand which was actually intended.

My fourth point was that neither Nietzsche nor nihilism (nor "Nietzscheanism", if one insists) is interchangeable with atheism. This was addressing a further false conflation.

Side: I am a Christian
14giraffes(87) Clarified
1 point

Read carefully cause all I did was ask a question and give the basic Christian-apologetics position, that is not necessarily my position. My position is that Nietzsche is a morality denier given the fact he rejected traditional morals, which is something Bertrand Russell agrees with in History of Western Philosophy. As for Nietzsche's direct links with atheism and his influence I am open to hear difference of opinion, though I highly doubt that Hitler was a Christian other than politically. I've read from scholarly sources that Nietzsche's sister gave Hitler The Will to Power, which was admired by Hitler but buttered down to make it look more racist. I know Nietzsche accused Wagner of being a Jew, but that's the extent of my knowledge of any racism in Nietzsche.

Side: I am a Christian
flewk(1193) Clarified
2 points

Well, Goebbels claims that Hitler hated Christianity and believes it goes against humanity's nobility (whatever that is). He was planning on getting rid of Christianity after he won the war.

So you are right. Hitler was a political Christian as most public figures tend to be.

Side: I am a Christian
Jace(5211) Disputed
1 point

I cannot help but be struck by the irony of being accused of poor reading comprehension by someone so thoroughly misrepresenting the works of a philosopher whom they apparently have not even read first hand. Effectively all you have done is reiterate your original claims, which does nothing to repudiate my observations as to why they are inaccurate.

My position is that Nietzsche is a morality denier given the fact he rejected traditional morals, which is something Bertrand Russell agrees with in History of Western Philosophy.

I refer you to (1). Even if Russell actually expressed the erroneous view that Nietzsche was himself a nihilist, that does not make the statement any less erroneous. You must forgive me, but I will take the writings of Nietzsche himself over your interpretations of the interpretations of his work made by someone else.

As for Nietzsche's direct links with atheism and his influence I am open to hear difference of opinion, though I highly doubt that Hitler was a Christian other than politically.

I refer you to (2) and (4). I was refuting your claim that nihilism/Nietzsche/atheism was more influential than Christianity upon Hitler. My point was actually that his "nihilism" was about as nihilistic as his "Christianity" was Christian, which is to say not very.

I've read from scholarly sources that Nietzsche's sister gave Hitler The Will to Power, which was admired by Hitler but buttered down to make it look more racist.

A point I expounded upon in (3). It is important to note that the "buttering down", as you put it, was not done by Nietzsche but by his sister.

I know Nietzsche accused Wagner of being a Jew, but that's the extent of my knowledge of any racism in Nietzsche.

Also incorrect. Nietzsche was critical of Wagner for his conversion to Christianity which we conceived of as an expression of weakness. (ref. Nietzsche contra Wagner).

Side: I am a Christian