CreateDebate


Debate Info

Debate Score:42
Arguments:27
Total Votes:44
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 Are extreme religious people the true followers of faith? (27)

Debate Creator

catticus90(360) pic



Are extreme religious people the true followers of faith?

http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm

 

I notcied recently that many Christians use the Bible to quote the laws of God but many fail to mention the sheer contradictions of the Old Testament. The old testment agrees the death penatly for working on Sabbath day is acceptable. As well as the consupmtion of ones own children and that raped women should request the marriage if their rapist to be morally accepted. Why is it that so many christians 'bitch' about the religious extremists giving them a 'bad name' when they are *truely* follwing the word of the Bible? Why is it that Christians ignore so much detail of the Old testament to the extreme that they even deny it. Is that acceptence?

Add New Argument
3 points

The usual Christian argument is that Old Testament laws don't apply anymore because Jesus came by and taught people forgiveness and mercy.

I take issue with that argument though. I'll quote from a post I wrote a while back:

--------------------------------

Firstly, Jesus was very specific in saying that he is not advocating that humanity depart from Old Testament law and follow a new law. He said at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

Jesus said also:

The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:16-17)

Yes, Jesus (and John the Baptist) brought forth new information, but they are by no means abolishing the laws of the Old Testament.

[...]

Thirdly, if one is to say that the moral teachings of the Old Testament are no longer relevant, because they are based on ancient laws and not on more modern, "correct" concepts of morality, why is the Old Testament still part of the Bible? Why is it still regarded the immutable word of God? Why hasn't it been relegated to a dusty corner, as nothing more than an amusing insight into the iniquities of the ancient world? Are Christians supposed to study the OT just to see how cruel God used to be before the coming of Jesus?

I submit that the God of pre-Christianity and early Christianity was every bit as cruel as the OT says he was. He is not a deity of eternal perfection, but one whose morality was strictly bound to the time when he was first worshipped - a time when people accepted slavery, female inferiority, etc. Jesus was better in his advocacy of love and forgiveness, but he too held many of the moral views of his age, which we now find immoral. The attempts of modern Christians to rewrite their religion and make it sound morally acceptable to 21st century folks either makes Christianity an internally inconsistent religion, or changes it so much that they can barely be called Christians.

--------------------------------

Another point not in the snippet above is that it's not only the Old Testament that has such harsh laws. The New Testament affirms the institution of slavery, among other nasty things.

1 point

Great verses, Peekaboo.

I completely agree with you. God in the New Testament must be the same horrible monster, because his creations are still at threat of experiencing infinite punishment for a finite amount of sin. Also, even though Jesus didn't kill everyone who disagreed with his word, he still inherited the original rules from the Old Testament. He was supposedly sacrificed on the cross with the sins of mankind, meaning the sins described to us in the Old Testament. People like to rationalize irrational things.

Side: True Followers
2 points

Christian dogmatic hypocrisy at it's finest.

But think about it this way... Do you really want all the Christians to follow all of that horseshit in their book that tells them to stone adulterers, kill witches, and treat women like property?

Side: True Followers
2 points

Those who follow The Bible (all of it) are true Christians. Many of the Christians today realize that The Bible is full of irrational, hateful, and quite awful things. They try to rationalize an already irrational religion by viewing Jesus's actions through a silly pipe dream. The fact is, to believe in Jesus The Bible tells we must also believe in his teachings and beliefs. While Jesus did not directly condemn homosexuality and all of the other primitive condemnations in the old testament, he inherited the punishment for original sin. Homosexuality and all of the other condemnations some Christians of today ignore were part of the inherited original sin that Jesus was sacrificed for. Also, God is still a monster because he wants to try to sentence his creations to an infinite punishment for finite sin, and some of those sins we have been able to deem as scientifically good for us.

I have also experienced frustration with Catholicism. They realize the majority of The Bible is hateful trash, yet they still cling to Christianity. Many of them posit an imperfect, logical god to believe in. But by doing that they lose all foundation that standard Christianity has, and they are still just trying to rationalize something ancient and irrational.

Side: True Followers
2 points

Or is it fair to judge an entire group based on the actions of a select few who are identified with a stereotype?

Let's identify a group with the label "leaders." Now there's a culpable sect. Leadership has been the cause of all wars and genocides.

Any problem you could blame on religion, it seems like could just as easily be attributed to leaders.

Ask yourself, should we blame our problems more on the commanders, or those obedient to them? What I find is that pointing the blame outward and away from ourselves is a universal tendency shared regardless of the essentially meaningless "religious" or "secular" classifications.

It's all a weak attempt to avoid personal responsibility.

Side: True Followers
catticus90(360) Disputed
2 points

No blame has been set upon any religion in this debate. It was merely a question regarding a minority of religious people. Since this debate isn't regarding whether religious extremists are responsible for anything, except for following their religious faith more than others, I don't see it as accusing them for problems. Any reference to what are generally deemed as immoral actions was made to the Old Testament which, if believed, is the leaders (God) word anyway.

Side: True Followers
2 points

These days, most Christians do not interpret the Bible literally and that is how it should be. The Reverand at my Church even says this.

Side: the Old Testament was abolished by Jesus
catticus90(360) Disputed
1 point

I know they don't interpret the Bible literally much anymore and disregard certain parts. But then I have to ask if Christians have chosen to disregard parts of the Bible then why are the non-religious judged for also not following some teachings from the Bible? Why is it any different that Christians eliminate the Bibles teachings of slavery promotion yet I would be 'wrong' to like someone who was homosexual?

Side: the Old Testament was abolished by Jesus

There is a easy answer to everything. Don't believe in a religion. Quality of live= increase by approximately 783 percent

Side: the Old Testament was abolished by Jesus

Why do atheist continually dwell on something they claim doesn't even exist? Sure looks like God is important to them or they wouldn't keep trying to bring him down all the time. The true extremist is found not in their words, but in their actions.

Side: Atheist Are
Peekaboo(704) Disputed
2 points

This is Catticus's first debate on a religious issue. That's hardly "continually dwelling" on religion.

Side: Atheist Are
catticus90(360) Disputed
2 points

I'm not even an Atheist I'm Agnostic for a start. Secondly this is my first ever debate on religion, if you would care to check my other debates.

Side: Atheist Are
Noxstant(176) Disputed
2 points

Agnostics are ontologically Atheists. Most completely misunderstand what Agnosticism is. Agnosticism is the position that humanity will never unlock the secrets to whether or not there is a god or not. It's not a middle ground for anything, and you are devoid of an ontological belief about the true origin of the Universe. Thus, by the narrow scope of Atheism, you are an Atheist.

Side: Atheist Are
ricedaragh(2497) Disputed
1 point

Hypocrite. I've seen more anti-Atheist debates from you than I've seen anti-religious debates from any particular Atheist, of course an Atheist will want to debate religion, especially when religions are causing so much trouble, and yes the subject of God is important to an Atheist, debating such subjects can give people the discussion they need, one they may not be able to get in their everyday lives.

Also i'm sure that rational logical discourse is not considered in the repertoire of an extremist.

Side: Atheist Are
1 point

The Old Testament was done away with at the Advent of Christ.

The Old Testament should no longer be in print: Jesus Himself said it was abolished, so why debate it? It is done away with.

Only the New Testament is in effect now.

Side: the Old Testament was abolished by Jesus
Peekaboo(704) Disputed
2 points

But Jesus didn't abolish the OT. To the contrary, he said:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

And also:

The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:16-17)

Side: the Old Testament was abolished by Jesus
1 point

Sorry parts of the opening statement were a little confusing, I was rather intoxicated when I created the debate. Re-read this morning like 'huh?'.

Side: the Old Testament was abolished by Jesus
1 point

I believe you have already told us the answer to 'Are Extreme Religious People True Followers of Faith?'.

All that is needed to deduce the answer is to pull apart the question. The question has 'extreme religious people' inside it. So obviously these people are very religious and support God. If people are extremely religious and do what the Bible says then how can they not be the true followers of faith?

This is a closed question and I would be surprised if someone disputed this argument.

Side: True Followers
1 point

The true followers of faith need not always be the right ones to look up to. Certain extremists are just living up to the name. Nothing is ever correct. Not even the Holy books. There is no need to be blind and lame followers. That is just stupid.

Side: True Followers