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Child Circumcision
Some people propose that even if we don't want to get our male kids circumcised for religious reasons, it is a good idea to get them circumcised for health reasons, because a person with circumcised penis is far less likely to get many genital related diseases and STDs. They argue that it should be done at an earlier age so that children don't remember the pain they suffered. The opponents say that circumcising a young child amounts to genital molestation and child abuse, because child is too young to show is consent on whether he wants to be circumcised.
1. The vast majority of girls think it looks better. That's really the most important thing for any man who isn't gay - I think gay men think it looks better too.
2. There are health issues involved, which is why people originally began circumcisions. It gets disgusting and cheesy and smelly beneath that sickening flesh pad no matter how much you wash it, especially if you live somewhere hot.
3. No baby who has ever been circumcised has ever remembered being circumcised and thus had some mental problem. Babies don't remember crap, they're fine.
You know what I've realized about most women? They don't care about our dicks nearly as much as we do. I'm uncircumcised and the vast majority of the women I've been with, including my current girlfriend, don't really care. In fact, many have thoroughly enjoyed playing with my foreskin, and have expressed a strong sexual preference - in terms of comfort - during coitus (what an awesome word). And if a woman told you that you'd look better with a more square jaw, would you go out and get surgery to satisfy her? What about the next woman who prefers uncircumcised penises? Would you get your foreskin reconstructed? I don't know about you, but I don't live my life for any woman's approval. I'm not a simp.
There are health issues involved, which is why people originally began circumcisions.
Probably not why it originally began. I don't really envision early man making the necessary conclusions about bacteria and its connection to sickness before bacteria was even discovered. Van Howe and Svoboda have written an interesting rebuttal/review of a Clark et al. article explaining why "neonatal circumcision is unnecessary" (search: neonatal circumcision).
It gets disgusting and cheesy and smelly beneath that sickening flesh pad no matter how much you wash it, especially if you live somewhere hot.
So do vagina interestingly... clearly, we should start circumcising women everywhere we go! Anyway, it's called soap. Us uncircumcised men use it to.
No baby who has ever been circumcised has ever remembered being circumcised and thus had some mental problem.
That's not entirely true. Some men do have psychological trauma associated with neonatal circumcision. John Rhinehart has written an interesting publication on the somatic/emotional/psychological consequences of neonatal circumcision in adult men. Trauma is very present in many circumcised men.
I don't want my foreskin cut off and replaced by scar-tissue, or have my penis glans inflated with congealed blood. It's not particularly appealing.
I've actually encountered this site, and this specific page in other debates. I have read it in the past. But thank you for the link, I've bookmarked it for future reference.
And to think that gathering cheese right next to a whole in your body where you also pee from could not possibly cause infection is just silly.
I don't recall ever "thinking" this. But again, it's called soap. Smegma build-up stems from poor hygiene or inability to get the penis cleaned in a suitable amount of time. It's a perfectly normal occurrence in intact humans: both men and women.
And you mean to tell me these men remember being a day to week old baby?
"I" don't mean to tell you anything about men who suffer from genital mutilation trauma beyond the fact that the trauma exists.
Whatever, if you have a son don't snip them.
Unless it's medically necessary, I won't.
If I have a son I'm going to.
Wait until he is old enough to make his own decisions. Having foreskin is, contrary to what you've been educated to believe, actually quite awesome.
However, I do object to those who say it should be illegal.
While I know a few people who do argue that male genital mutilation should be illegal, I don't think most people do. But I would definitely argue that medically-unnecessary, male neonatal genital mutilation should be considered a form of child abuse and illegal in the same way that female genital mutilation is.
... I think you're right mostly. I was raised in a shell forgive me. See my reply to Asvekde above. Tagged like this one and starting "Ugh!" if you care. Upvote for persistance... and I stand by my comment about you in my reply to him ><
We're talking about children here, who are too young to object to the procedure. Whatever your feelings on circumcision are, you are old enough to make the decision for yourself. The infant (or young child) is not. You are denying them a right of choice over their own bodies with a minimal benefit for doing so.
Of further note is that the reasons you list in support of male circumcision are similar to those reasons used to support female circumcision. In those old communities which still practice what we now call Female Genital Mutilation, it is considered unattractive for women to be uncircumcised, they will have difficulty finding husbands because the men think it is disgusting, or are forbidden to marry unless circumcised.
No, I'm denying them the humiliation of being called "anteater" in the showers throughout high school sports. And see link in my reply to Mohollinder.
I never understood this mindset. Children pick on each other over just about anything. Too smart? They feel intimidated and act aggressive. Too tall? They make nicknames. Too fat? Same deal. Have unusual eyes, a big nose, etc? Expect to be laughed at.
But you're suddenly worried about a male child being made fun of for having a foreskin? Besides the lack of consistency (Are you going to make him dumber if he's bright? Are you going to put him on a stretcher and give him growth hormones if he's tiny? What about plastic surgery to make his face more symmetrical?), men in high school showers would tend to you know, not check out each other in order to avoid being thought of as gay... I should think anyway, that's how it was back in my day. Are you going to give him a penis pump too, in case he's poorly endowed? Geez.
Well, since you're just arguing out of your rear end, I'll give you my opinion. I think it must feel a little strange to some men to know their penis has had something cut off. I imagine that's where some insecurity and hostility may come from (and the old argument from tradition...).
As to your link, it provides little justification for child circumcision. The best case they make, such as preventing UTIs and phimosis, is a bit like preemptively removing a child's tonsils and appendix.
No I'm not actually arguing from my ass. I am quite happy to have been circumsized, have no "scar tissue" and in fact did not even know foreskin was missing until much later when I learned what circumcision was. I genuinely believe it is healthier to have it removed. And while you cannot help that children are going to make fun of eachother, this does not mean you have to make it harder by doing more to make them stand out. I mean, I am pro-gay rights and against discrimination for instance, that does not mean it's okay to name my kid "fag" or something. It's inviting unnecessary trauma.
If I lived somewhere where the majority did not perform this procedure, than fine I wouldn't have it done. But in the US the majority have it done. More, I think it's healthier so the majority should continue to have it done.
I am quite happy to have been circumsized, have no "scar tissue" and in fact did not even know foreskin was missing until much later when I learned what circumcision was.
Good for you. This doesn't change the merit of INFANT and CHILD circumcision however. I think that smaller breasts are attractive, should I encourage breast reductions for young girls, or efforts to prevent them from growing big breasts?
I genuinely believe it is healthier to have it removed.
Women who have been circumcised believe that it is healthier, too. However, not an argument for CHILD circumcision. Would you remove a child's appendix early to prevent appendicitis?
And while you cannot help that children are going to make fun of eachother, this does not mean you have to make it harder by doing more to make them stand out.
You're not making them stand out. Besides the fact that circumcision is actually the minority in the world, and your fears of standing out were caused by the last hundred or so years of our ancestors choosing to start circumcising their youths, thus causing the disparity, we all have features that are unusual and a person's penis isn't exactly something that is paraded around in public, is it? Besides even that, why would you project your insecurities onto your son in the first place? So you hate standing out, now your son must suffer by loosing a choice that is his to make? Did you know that in Africa women get their clitorises removed by their grandparents, even if the parents object, and this is all for conformity's sake, to make the young girl not have to fear being different?
I mean, I am pro-gay rights and against discrimination for instance, that does not mean it's okay to name my kid "fag" or something. It's inviting unnecessary trauma.
Different issue entirely. A foreskin is not traumatic, you're speaking from complete ignorance here.
If I lived somewhere where the majority did not perform this procedure, than fine I wouldn't have it done. But in the US the majority have it done. More, I think it's healthier so the majority should continue to have it done.
So if you, hypothetically, moved to Saudi Arabia, or Africa, and had a daughter, you'd get her clitoris removed?
I've done some research, because while Moholinder would argue to spite me I believe, I think you are quite bright. (Moholinder is too, but I think he argues for arguement's sake sometimes)
In the US around 60% of the population is circumcised. This is a far greater percentage than in most places.
Obviously for me specifically, I went to high school (thus showers after practice) where all but 1 was circumcised.
He was made fun of, and that allowed me to develop a negative opinion based on nothing.
To be fair, I was not making stuff up, I literally had a girl say to me "thank god you're circumcised"
but that could just as easily have been "thank god you're not"
It is nothing to base an opinion on.
My only remaining concern is the health issue as a child.
I can say now that I would be against most definitely "child" circumcision, but I am not sure about infant circumcision.
I am not sure I trust children to wash that area properly.
I see now the health risks are not nearly as great as I was lead to believe, but I also know that I literally never washed my penis between probably when my mom stopped doing it for me as a baby, and when I was old enough to care... maybe that's weird. Whatever. Do you truly believe the health risks are minimal?
Obviously for me specifically, I went to high school (thus showers after practice) where all but 1 was circumcised.
He was made fun of, and that allowed me to develop a negative opinion based on nothing.
Children and adolescents are cruel, I agree.
To be fair, I was not making stuff up, I literally had a girl say to me "thank god you're circumcised"
but that could just as easily have been "thank god you're not"
It is nothing to base an opinion on.
This is very true. In the states I've heard of praise from many women about uncircumcised guys, but conversely some giving negative opinions too. I've heard the same differences of opinion from gay and bisexual men too.
In my experience, good hygiene is what matters most. If someone is clean, there won't be any issues there (I'm bisexual so I guess I can testify to this point).
I am not sure I trust children to wash that area properly.
It's basically like any other hygienic practise, in that you have to teach your child where to wash, and reinforce it. Of course, those who grow up to be slobs are going to face criticism anyway.
I see now the health risks are not nearly as great as I was lead to believe, but I also know that I literally never washed my penis between probably when my mom stopped doing it for me as a baby, and when I was old enough to care... maybe that's weird. Whatever. Do you truly believe the health risks are minimal?
There are health risks, I can't lie and say it's completely safe. There's always the possibility of UTIs, phimosis, and the like but with most health issues requiring surgery, we are not preventative. That is to say, we wait for a problem to show symptoms before treating it instead of performing preventative surgery. In the case of circumcision, it seems to be the case that men in Europe, South America and much of Asia get along fine without it being standard practise (I'm not saying there are no problems, just that the men aren't racing to the ER or surgery centre en mass because it's uncommon to rare to have problems).
I can say now that I would be against most definitely "child" circumcision, but I am not sure about infant circumcision.
There is a minor point I wish to point out, circumcision like any procedure can have complications. It's very rare but death can occur from bleeding (children who have poor platelet formation) or amputation of the penis. However this is very rare and I don't know if it occurs in the west, given our high quality medicine.
Edit: I should add that there are points that would make me endorse circumcision. If for example circumcision completely prevented HIV then that would be a very good point for adolescent and adult circumcision. If it completely stopped UTIs, then that might be a good argument. With phimosis circumcision can cure this, though there are now more expensive surgeries that can fix it without cutting off the foreskin. It's the same with a short frenulum.
The fact is, most women are repulsed by an uncircumcised penis. If that were the only incentive, I'd still do it, but when you combine that with the fact that circumcision reduces the transfer of HIV from women to men by as much as 60%, any reason anybody can come up with for not doing it goes out the window.
The fact is, most women are repulsed by an uncircumcised penis.
Most women, where? Women aren't complaining in South America, Europe, (most of) Asia, and Australia.
If that were the only incentive, I'd still do it, but when you combine that with the fact that circumcision reduces the transfer of HIV from women to men by as much as 60%, any reason anybody can come up with for not doing it goes out the window.
It doesn't make you immune to HIV. It has a statistically significant effect on the population level when and only when safe sex practices are utilised. It seems like a desperate justification to me, after the fact. I say this because in those regions of the world where circumcision is rare, they aren't scrambling to circumcise their men, because of this device invented many years ago called a "condom" which all but completely stops the risk of HIV if you follow the directions.
Would you advocate removing the appendix and tonsils at birth too, to prevent future disorders associated with them?
Neither of your points is applicable to CHILD circumcision.
Reducing the chance of acquiring HIV by 60% is a desperate justification?
Again, that alone is enough reason to have it done.
When it comes to aesthetics, I suppose you've got to decide if you want to encourage your child to put himself at a greater risk of acquiring HIV by not having it done when he's an infant (honestly, how many men get it done later in life?) if you live in a country where it's uncommon, but if you're fortunate enough to live in North America, you can make the right choice both for medical reasons and aesthetics.
Also any time this comes up, you might as well just make the question, "Are you circumcised?" Nobody who is argues against it. There's no reason to.
Reducing the chance of acquiring HIV by 60% is a desperate justification?
Again, that alone is enough reason to have it done.
Look, you're a smart guy, I've seen your debate posts. So I don't understand why I need to repeat this simple point over and over again: circumcision doesn't make you immune to HIV, but condoms when properly utilised do.
When it comes to aesthetics, I suppose you've got to decide if you want to encourage your child to put himself at a greater risk of acquiring HIV by not having it done when he's an infant (honestly, how many men get it done later in life?) if you live in a country where it's uncommon, but if you're fortunate enough to live in North America, you can make the right choice both for medical reasons and aesthetics.
Do children (read:infants) have sex? No. So it isn't necessary as a preventative measure at that age. Do adolescents have sex? Yes. Are they mature enough to decide for themselves at this point? Yes.
Also, you're forgetting about SEXUAL EDUCATION, that teaches about STDs and condom use.
Also any time this comes up, you might as well just make the question, "Are you circumcised?" Nobody who is argues against it. There's no reason to.
You've clearly never researched foreskin restoration.
Look, you're a smart guy, I've seen your debate posts. So I don't understand why I need to repeat this simple point over and over again: circumcision doesn't make you immune to HIV, but condoms when properly utilised do.
You are also a smart person, so I'm sure you read "60% reduction" and not "immune"
You also seem to think I'm arguing that circumcision should replace condom use, or education. Of course I am not. I'm taking the same position as the WHO, shouldn't we all?
You've clearly never researched foreskin restoration.
And I'd be willing to bet I'm in the majority there, but yes, my use of the word "nobody" was a generalization. I have in fact, seen an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit that featured at least one person who was unhappy with his having been circumcised and was using weights in an attempt to revert.
And finally, I get that you're arguing against child circumcision and not circumcision in general and it's a fair point.
My point is that few men are willing to have it done later in life, even if they understand that they should. Honestly, if I hadn't had it done as an infant, I don't know that I'd have the courage to do it now and I'm glad my parents never put me in that position.
My hope is that through education, circumcision will become the norm globally.
You also seem to think I'm arguing that circumcision should replace condom use, or education. Of course I am not. I'm taking the same position as the WHO, shouldn't we all?
Proper condom use renders circumcision moot. The "immunities" or "reductions" do not stack.
And I'd be willing to bet I'm in the majority there, but yes, my use of the word "nobody" was a generalization. I have in fact, seen an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit that featured at least one person who was unhappy with his having been circumcised and was using weights in an attempt to revert.
Circumcision takes a LOT of effort to undo, has benefits that are superseded by latex and poly condom usage, and there is a sizable industry and community around undoing the procedure.
My point is that few men are willing to have it done later in life, even if they understand that they should. Honestly, if I hadn't had it done as an infant, I don't know that I'd have the courage to do it now and I'm glad my parents never put me in that position.
Why should they? There are condoms, after all, and they are apparently satisfied with the way they are, and if they are unsatisfied can choose to do it.
Did you know that in female genital mutilation, the women who have had the procedure fervently endorse it, and claim health and sanitary benefits too?
My hope is that through education, circumcision will become the norm globally.
I think you're just defending your present state. There's no rational benefit to the procedure in the developed and most of the developing world, because condoms are cheap and commonly available, and circumcision isn't easily reversed.
Reducing the chance of acquiring HIV is a desperate justification. The 60% reduction you cite is relative risk for female-to-male HIV transmission in Africa. F-to-M is the least common form of transmission among heterosexual men in North America. The epidemic here involves M-to-M and IV drug use. Circumcision helps with neither, so its potential benefit is negligible here. An individual heterosexual male's absolute lifetime risk of HIV infection is something on the order of 0.02% in North America. Simply put, circumcision is effectively meaningless on this topic. Children do not need it.
As for your last assertion, I was circumcised as an infant. I despise it. My parents were wrong to force it on me. It's medically unnecessary and morally offensive. No one has a legitimate right to surgically alter another healthy, non-consenting individual, full stop. No excuses, such as the aesthetic preferences of shallow women, changes that basic human right.
any reason anybody can come up with for not doing it goes out the window.
Simply untrue, we have foreskins for a reason,among other things they protect the sensitive area beneath them. Besides, I am uncircumcised and have never had any form of infection below whatsoever.
I think the main reason a lot of parents do this to their children is for a sanitary reason. Isn't that reason enough for any parent to do anything? So that their child can be healthy and happy?
In my opinion, circumcising penis is one of the most important things human have to do. cuz, it is necessary for children to protect themselves from diseases. I don't understand why parents tend not to do it. Is that their respect for children who might be infected by such a serious disease like HIV?? Recently, UN and WHO recommend to do circumcision which blocks not only AIDS, but also, it helps eliminate harmful material around penis.
Here is the thing we need to make a dicision which is more important between HEALTH and EXTERNAL APPEARANCE OF PENIS.
ps. my penis was circumcised when I was 8 years old. then I was in hospital because of my appendix. a few days after operation of appendix, all of sudden I didn't know what's happening as I was lying on the bed moving to operation room with no mentioning of that. And doctor said "you can feel a bit painful, but endure ok?" I thought it was for appendix. They started to operate by injecting into my penis with anesthesia 2times which was pretty killing me. After then, I suffered from my penis for 2~3weeks. I couldn't pee well.
When I look back to that time. I really thank my mother. If they had got my penis circumcised now, I would avoid that, cuz it's painful.
Some people might consider their size of penis...which is by no means important.
In fact, there could be a culture difference. Im asian. In my country, over 50% of the people got operation of circumcision.
In my opinion, circumcising penis is one of the most important things human have to do. cuz, it is necessary for children to protect themselves from diseases. I don't understand why parents tend not to do it. Is that their respect for children who might be infected by such a serious disease like HIV?? Recently, UN and WHO recommend to do circumcision which blocks not only AIDS, but also, it helps eliminate harmful material around penis.
Circumcision doesn't block disease. Even after being circumcised you must wear a condom...
Well it shouldn't be illegal, it is beneficial towards the child. As far as hygienics go it is a step in the right direction, having a foreskin makes obtaining an infection easier. So why would we wait until our child can actually feel and remember the pain, when we can get the child circumcised ( for health reasons ONLY ) before the child has a memory that will retain information no farther than blinking?
It is more hygienic, without a doubt, and is a decision I believe should be made for every child. Should they be given a say in it? No, because by the time they reach a maturity level to decide appropriately, they are already too old to be cut.
This has always been a fairly hilarious argument, simply because most people adamantly support whichever penis type they have. Anti-circumcision is a position that is made out of a blissful ignorance, "oh no, don't hurt the child" when in fact the amount of cleaning and health issues that arise from NOT doing so are far, far worse than the 30 minutes of pain circumcision causes.
It is more hygienic, without a doubt, and is a decision I believe should be made for every child. Should they be given a say in it? No, because by the time they reach a maturity level to decide appropriately, they are already too old to be cut.
Adult and child circumcisions are commonplace.
This has always been a fairly hilarious argument, simply because most people adamantly support whichever penis type they have. Anti-circumcision is a position that is made out of a blissful ignorance, "oh no, don't hurt the child" when in fact the amount of cleaning and health issues that arise from NOT doing so are far, far worse than the 30 minutes of pain circumcision causes.
Tell that to circumcised men who are deeply upset with their parents' decision and are trying to undo it.
It is still cleaner and more healthy to have it done...
And also, circumcised men who are deeply upset with their parent's decision and are trying to undo it are just trying to bring attention to their penis. It's essentially a fetish. Look it up.
It is still cleaner and more healthy to have it done...
Based on what? Assertions? It's already been explained before, you just use soap, like with typical bathing hygiene. As for health, not really. Foreskin doesn't cause problems in the large majority, the most frequent problem is phimosis and that's about 10%. Even then, circumcision isn't the only route to treat it.
And also, circumcised men who are deeply upset with their parent's decision and are trying to undo it are just trying to bring attention to their penis. It's essentially a fetish. Look it up.
Uh, wrong, try talking to these people. They are upset because they prefer the look of a foreskin, they may feel reduced sensitivity in sex because their glans penis is exposed 24/7 and desensitised as a result. In some cases they can't even enjoy sex.
All because someone imposed this decision on them without their consent.
Edit: I base this off of people who I've talked to, and read about. You really seem uninformed on the subject and are just defending your preference when the discussion is about CHILD (as in before consent) circumcision.
Every person's each and every part is his property, so without any one's consent you can not tinker with their property. A child's genitals cannot be altered without his consent, and he cannot consent (or otherwise) unless he is a major. So, circumcising a child amounts to genital mutilation and child abuse. Because if a child grows up to know his genitals have been circumcised, and if he does not like this, he cannot do anything to reverse it.
I don't think it's right to make a decision about some body else's body, especially at such a young age. I would never get my son circumcised and I would never get my young daughters ears pierced.
For the record I would never think a mans penis looks better circumcised!!
So circumcision lowers the risk of STDs? Wow, I have a way to lower my chance to almost 0%. Get you and your partner tested beforehand! Seems a lot easier than the alternative.
Yes, that is right, but the main point in favour of circumcision, circumcision is related to health. Is appearance and feeling more important than the possibility that you might have diseases? Are u gonna regret after being affected by serious diseases?
respect children's opinion? less feeling? no way...
For me who had circumcision, I can feel good when I have sex.
In fact, I want to know the main point to object circumcision in terms of health.
I guess nothing more important than health problem.
You have sex because it feels good. Not because it's healthy.
Why would you want to downgrade sex? For a 60% decline in HIV? Even though a johnny renders that obsolete because it decline's HIV transferrence by 99%? Or are you telling me you'd rather have sex without a condom? Meaning health isn't your biggest issue?
