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Looks like some of my crazy speculations about Osama Bin Laden may be correct
Recently following the killing of "suspected" senior member of Al Queda Osama Bin Laden i suggested that the operaton was a planned assination, i was subsequently denigrated and belittled for suggesting this, and other things. I openly admitted that i was speculating about the motives of the assination but nobody would except the reality that it was an assination, as i had no proof i had to admit as much. Also, being debated was the Al Queda members role (notice how im not saying leader) in the 9/11 attacks, there is no doubt the man was heavily involved but what proof is there that he was the mastermind, another piont of contention was Bin Ladens role within the organisation, i claimed it was most likely a severly reduced role given that he was probably the most wanted man in the world.
I was told time and time again that i was a lunatic, fanatic, and that i was crazyily speculating based on inadequate information, and to be honest that isnt entirely untrue, the problem is that the people telling me these things (e.g. Bohemian, Enigmatic Man) were doing the very same thing, they just don't think they were, they beleive that the information provided by washington, and its associated intelligence groups, coupled with the proclamation's of Osama himslef should be treated as 100% unquestionable fact. I think the following article goes along way to refuting much of what was asserted by them:
http://www.presstv.com/usdetail/181172.html
Please come along and give me your own views on this article, whether you agree with any of it, disagree with all of it, or just dont know. My opinoin is that the article is as close to fact as can be obtained but im open to being challenged on that.
"There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 79 commandos facing no opposition - except, they report, from his wife, also unarmed, who they shot in self-defense when she “lunged” at them (according to the White House)."
There was a dead or alive bounty on his head and a trial would have ended in the same way, and for all we know had we asked Pakistan to hand him over either Pakistan would have refused or Bin laden's men might have found some way to smuggle him. Now does that mean the killing of an unarmed person is right? No, and if you ask me I think the Seals went vigilante.
"he authors quote former West German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, who “told German TV that the U.S. raid was 'quite clearly a violation of international law' and that bin Laden should have been detained and put on trial,” "
Actually oddly enough it didn't violate international law, a country suspected(with clear, unrefutable evidence) of being knowingly in possesion of a known terrorists and not detaining him/her losses its right to prevent outer intervention. That law can be twisted and is up for different perceptions of what it means, but when used in these contexts the case can be made and defended that it was a legal raid. If we can prove Pakistan knew(of which i have no doubt) that Bin Laden was there, we had every right to go get him. Again, i don't think that justified killing him but I also hold we had little other choices.
I will tentatively agree with most of this even though i am a little uneasy at how you are prtraying the incident, i dont think this was legal under international law, and to be honest you would have got him one way or the toehr trying toi defend the actions of the marines by saying Pakistan would have refused or that Al ueda would have smuggled him out is quite weak. Please give me your views on this interview if you get the chance to watch it, it features Terrik Ramandan a professor of comtemporary and oriental studies at Oxford University:
Don't think i'm defending the incident, I don't believe we should have killed him but I am as negative as people come and can't help but suspect the worst would have happened with any other outcome. I didn't say what i said to defend the marines, i just said it to portray my negativity on my governments ability to deal with such matters. And for some reason, the public library computer i am using won't let me watch the interview, it lists the site as a hate site for some odd reason.
Thats because its the official site of Norman Finkelstein a Jewish Professor who greatly opposes Isreals actions. In debate on democracy now he made Havard Professor Alan Dershowitz (a mouth piece for Isrealis propaganda) look very foolish heres the debate if your interested:
Anyway after the debate Desshowitz knew he had been humiliated and used his power connections to get Finkelstein first to get Finkelstein denied tenure and then to get him fired. He is now viewed as an extremist in america, and id say thats largely the reason you were unable to access the site from a public library, im just suprised they have gone to such lengths to silence the man.
The debate was facinating and I thank you for introducing me to this Norman Finkelstein, I will look for his book. I will complain to the library about blocking his site.
Well, I'm not going to that article because I'm really not that interested... I will say this... You are a lunatic, that I know from first hand experience but I agree with you on several of these points. gasp!
First, I think it very well might have been an assassination... I don't really know and I don't think any of us will ever know for sure but I really don't care... I'm glad he's dead.
As for him being the mastermind behind 9/11... I don't ever remember our government saying he was... in fact as far as I know, they have always said that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind. I don't know if that's true or not but that has always been my understanding of what the government has put out.
As for OBL being the leader of Al Qaeda... I believe he was pre-9/11 but most likely wasn't for long after that. He was still the symbolic leader but that's all... I don't think Al Qaeda really has a single leader any more as the group is not that organized any more... The Yemeni branch of Al Qaeda, if that's what one wants to call it, is most likely the most dangerous now.
The death of bin Laden changes absolutely nothing... we are no safer nor any more vulnerable... it is simply symbolic and I'm glad he is dead.
Now, Gary, being Gary, will disagree with almost all of this even though it appears that I'm agreeing with him because that's what he does.
"First, I think it very well might have been an assassination.I don't really know and I don't think any of us will ever know for sure but I really don't care."
It was an assassination man, read the article, or look at the latest reports relating to what really went on if you dont want to read my article cause you're afraid what it may tell you. I will admit though at least your open minded enough to admit that many have as they dont want to have to question the actions of their government.
"I'm glad he's dead"
To be honest i kinda feel sorry for the guy, 50 navy seals invaded his home while he was with his wife and child they broke in and shot him (illegally) in the back of the head when he was completely unamred and not even dressed properly afterthey were resisted by only one man, i also want to say if the same happened to George W Bush i would feel the same way before you call me an extremist.
"As for him being the mastermind behind 9/11... I don't ever remember our government saying he was... in fact as far as I know, they have always said that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind. "
Ohh come off it Hellno you know fulll well thats what your media was espousing after 9/11 im not saying they didnt implicate others who were also involved but the primary justification for invading Afghanistan was to hunt the man responsible for 9/11 (or who they percieved as being responsible) Osama Bin Laden. Are you really going to make me dig up old american news reports that insinuate he was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks cause you know as well as i do that most americans would not think this had they not been told to think it.
"As for OBL being the leader of Al Qaeda... I believe he was pre-9/11 but most likely wasn't for long after that. He was still the symbolic leader but that's all... I don't think Al Qaeda really has a single leader any more as the group is not that organized any more.."
To be honest i have to agree completely with every word of this, itgs exactly the opinion i hold on the matter.
"The death of bin Laden changes absolutely nothing... we are no safer nor any more vulnerable... it is simply symbolic and"
Again i agree completely i just wish more americans shared your view.
"Now, Gary, being Gary, will disagree with almost all of this even though it appears that I'm agreeing with him because that's what he does."
Guilty as charged, but ive pciked all the holes i can in this, to be honest theres far more here i agree with than disagree with.
read the article, or look at the latest reports relating to what really went on if you dont want to read my article cause you're afraid what it may tell you.
I'm not afraid of shit Gary... I don't care if it was an assassination... It would surprise me that Barry O'bama would have the balls to give the order but I'm fine with that if he did.
To be honest i kinda feel sorry for the guy
You would. *rolls eyes
i also want to say if the same happened to George W Bush i would feel the same way before you call me an extremist.
I don't even know what that is supposed to mean??? I wasn't a fan of W Bush???
Ohh come off it Hellno you know fulll well thats what your media was espousing after 9/11
Uhhh... The media may have in the months after 9/11 because they didn't know otherwise at the time... Google "mastermind of 9/11" Gary! KSM's name pops up everywhere and I know for a fact that FOX News has been calling him the mastermind for years now.
To be honest i have to agree completely with every word of this, itgs exactly the opinion i hold on the matter.
"I'm not afraid of shit Gary... I don't care if it was an assassination.."
Well it was washington has all but admittefd as, i also want to say i was labelled a fanatic for thinking it wasn't but ill leave that one side.
"It would surprise me that Barry O'bama would have the balls to give the order but I'm fine with that if he did."
Why? You clearly underestimate the ruthlessness of your administration, you do release they have taken more or less the lead role in Lbya depite that the 60 day period for war being declared by congress has passed thereby making the current excusion constitutionally illegal.
"I don't even know what that is supposed to mean??? I wasn't a fan of W Bush???"
Just in case you say i sympathise with who you percieve to be the real terrorists. Looking at objectively GWB did alot more damage than OSB could ever dream of doing, and no matter what you think there actions are morally equivalent.
"Uhhh... The media may have in the months after 9/11 because they didn't know otherwise at the time... Google "mastermind of 9/11" Gary! KSM's name pops up everywhere and I know for a fact that FOX News has been calling him the mastermind for years now."
Im not disputing this, im sure any researcher could have found out the same, the thing your failing to grasp is that america had their scapegoat and his name was Osama Bin Laden, he was made out to be the new Hitler, he was responsible for 9/11 and somehow responsible for every other terror attack, this is how it was fed to the american population.
Well it was washington has all but admittefd as, i also want to say i was labelled a fanatic for thinking it wasn't but ill leave that one side.
Okay... I don't care if it was an assassination and I didn't label you as a fanatic for saying that.
Why? You clearly underestimate the ruthlessness of your administration
Nope, I don't! Barry is wimp and he's proven that over and over again.
Looking at objectively GWB did alot more damage than OSB could ever dream of doing,
I didn't like W... Afghanistan was justified, Iraq was not... what was done was done and if the world doesn't like it, too fucking bad.
and no matter what you think there actions are morally equivalent.
And no matter what you think, you are wrong.
Im not disputing this, im sure any researcher could have found out the same, the thing your failing to grasp is that america had their scapegoat and his name was Osama Bin Laden, he was made out to be the new Hitler, he was responsible for 9/11 and somehow responsible for every other terror attack, this is how it was fed to the american population.
This is what pisses me off about you... you pretend to somehow know what all Americans think and what media they listen too when in fact you couldn't possible know as you are not living here... I have heard for years now that KSM was the mastermind... all the media outlets say that... of course if you ask the average person on the street who the mastermind is, they'll say OBL, but that's because many Americans are dumb as hell and don't even bother with news in general... it's sad but many others do get the facts. You need to stop lumping every American into one category.
"Okay... I don't care if it was an assassination and I didn't label you as a fanatic for saying that"
I know you didn't but others did.
"Nope, I don't! Barry is wimp and he's proven that over and over again."
Really cause hes ordering drone attacks on a daily basis, many of which are killing civilians, in fact the puppet government you installed in afghanistan is even trying to get you to stop and leave their country.
"I didn't like W... Afghanistan was justified, Iraq was not... what was done was done and if the world doesn't like it, too fucking bad. "
Afghanistan was not justified, but what i really like about this is the typical american attitude that you just demostrated perfectly for me i.e. "if the world doesn't like it, too fucking bad. " Thats pretty much what you say all the time when you decide terrorise the word. Too fuckin bad. You claim to be for peace democracy and all these bullshit idelas that you've never ever been able to live up to, you do what you want when you want, and if the word doesnt like it too fuckin bad, andn you wonder why there are people who are willing to blow themselves up just to inflict damage upon you. America is the greatest of all the hypocrites, its unlike any other empire in that it doesnt claim to be anm e,pire oir an imperial force, you think your country is fighting terrorism your country is the worlds greatest terrorist state, and that exactly what the history books are going to read when your empire falls.
"And no matter what you think, you are wrong"
Saying this doesnt actually make it so
"This is what pisses me off about you... you pretend to somehow know what all Americans think"
Look at the evidence man, answer me this, do you think that a false link between AL Queda and Saddam would have been established if the government thought that it wouldn't garner support from the wider american poopulation, i dont call to know what all americans think but i do know that the majority of them think that Osama BIn Laden mastermined the 9/11 as that was the pretence for invading afghanistan and if you ever did any real research on the effects that war has and on the afghans you'd realise that war was completely unjust, and i dont even need to mention Iraq.Heres a documentary from the courageous journalist and defender of freedom of the ropess John Pilger, the documentary is very outdated (2003) but i stil works:
"of course if you ask the average person on the street who the mastermind is, they'll say OBL, but that's because many Americans are dumb as hell and don't even bother with news in general... it's sad but many others do get the facts. You need to stop lumping every American into one category."
Im sorry but i was generalising, of course thats not my opinion about every american.
-You do have a point about the drone attacks and I'm glad he's doing it.
-Nothing you can say will ever convince me that Afghanistan wasn't justified.
-I think we need to have more of a "fuck whatever anyone else thinks" attitude than we do. China and Russia don't give a shit and we shouldn't either.
-I never agreed with Iraq... I think it was the biggest mistake we made in a long time. I NEVER thought Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda and I do believe some stuff was made up to get the American people on W's side. I think W wanted Saddam to topple because Saddam tried to kill his daddy. We had Saddam contained and Iran and Iraq canceled each other out which was good for us and the region. Toppling Saddam has empowered Iran. I did support the war once it began because our troops were being killed and I must support our troops. The Iraq invasion was stupid to say the least.
"-You do have a point about the drone attacks and I'm glad he's doing it. "
You're glad hes sending in drones to kill people illegally which are resulting in massive civilian casualities (seriously look it many people are being killed men woman and children) in roder to kill a few people you like to call terrorists but from their side they are only resisting the occupation of their country. Thats pretty extreme, and the fact that you've espuosed such a view only proves to me that your great nation is the greatest terrorist state on earth, and it will be remembered as such. People dont just forget all the death and destruction you've wrought upon the world, despite your incredibly complex and sophisticated propaganda machine.
"-Nothing you can say will ever convince me that Afghanistan wasn't justified."
So tens of thousands of people killed, a country lying in ruins
"-I think we need to have more of a "fuck whatever anyone else thinks" attitude than we do. China and Russia don't give a shit and we shouldn't either."
Ill give you China they're just as bad as you are but they do not yet have the kind of power to do the kind of things that you (at to others countries) or wield the same kind of imperialism that you do. Something tells me China will be a lot less hypocritical about it (not that really matters) but you can be sure China wont be spending billions every year to convince their population that they are really spreading peace and democracy. Russia on the other hand are not as bad, in fact they are leasding the opposition to the current imperial adventure in Libya.
"-I never agreed with Iraq... I think it was the biggest mistake we made in a long time."
Ya i agree it is the biggest mistake you made in a long time, for the Iraq people, please read:
"I NEVER thought Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda and I do believe some stuff was made up to get the American people on W's side."
Some of the stuff!!!! It was all lies, and what more it has all been proven to be lies, the links with AL Queda, the WMDs, Iraqs military, anything said in the lead up to that war was a lie the fact that you are even still at this stage saying that only some were lies shows your inability to effectively question your governments true motives.
"I think W wanted Saddam to topple because Saddam tried to kill his daddy."
I completely disagree (assuming you are serious), they wanted the oil, they wanted the control, a chance to get their fingers furhter into the middle east, look at what has gone on since then, this was all about power. It was about that from day one.
"We had Saddam contained and Iran and Iraq canceled each other out which was good for us and the region."
This really is only slightly true, they didnt cancel each other out but i admit from what ive read they did stifle one another.
"Toppling Saddam has empowered Iran."
Yes this is largely true.
"I did support the war once it began because our troops were being killed and I must support our troops. The Iraq invasion was stupid to say the least."
And did you feel sorry for the death and destruction you brought to a bewildered people, i mean you have your fingers firmly in Iraq since the early 90s, first there was Gulf 1 then you imposed an brutal blockade which the red cross calculated was responsible for the deaths of over 500,000 children i.e.
your latest war there has cost over 1 million lives, why di you not talk about this when you talk about the war, you only talk Goepolitics, as if you have some right to be doing these things to other countries, imagine another country had done that to america. If you really knew what has happened to Iraq you would be so non chalant in the way you talk about these conflicts, you would hang your head in shame for supporting them.You've sent that country back to the stone age, you have commited gross crimes against humanity in that country, it is literally comparable to Rwanda, and thats not sensationalising, but all you say is i wasn't in favour of the war. Ya neither was Obama but not becuase of the loss of life and pain and sufferring Obama was opposed fpor similar reasons to yourself, he didnt beleive the american economy could afford it or that it was strategically a good move, this is what makes me sick to stomach.
I'm only addressing the first part because this is getting boring...
I'm a Libertarian... I don't want us involved anywhere in the world... the only thing I really want my government to be is protect it citizens... And if that means bombing the hell out of people plotting attacks on the United States then so be it... they'll do it to us if we let them. I know you don't like this opinion and I really don't care.
"I'm only addressing the first part because this is getting boring..."
Fair enough but i really would like of you checked out some of sources, they're really quitye good, and im sure you haven't been exposed to them before, but whatever.
"I'm a Libertarian... I don't want us involved anywhere in the world"
I agree but you are because you chose to exert your dominance on other countries in order to exploit,and kill the people and steal their resources, this may sound extreme, and you may think im a nut job for saying but im far from the only person who thinks this way, and the evidence in favour of this position is staggering.
"the only thing I really want my government to be is protect it citizens"
I understand this completly, most americans only want the same, thats why i dont blame you, you are being decieved, you will not achieve the kind of security by doing what you are currently doing, think about since the 9/11 attacks, the so called war on terror, the two invasions, you practically occupy pakistan and notrth africa, do you think you have made the world safer place or a more dangerous place, do you think the threat of terrorism (as you percieve it) is greater now or then?
Also, consider what you have done, you are effectively responsible for the deaths of 1 million Iraqis, is that not a greater crime? You've completely destroyed their conuntry, you explioted their most precious resource.
"And if that means bombing the hell out of people plotting attacks on the United States then so be it"
I strongly beleive that this policy will only make your position more unsafe, you and so many others feel this is absolutely necessary in order to secure your safety but have you ever considered that in doing this you are only fanning the flames of hatred, you are only creating more jihadists, your actions (and continued actions) have replenished the ranks of Al Queda and all other radical anti-american organisations, and due they have a right to be angry, do they have a right to defend their countries from those they perceive as being occupiers, and those they operceive as exploiting their people and their resorces, its hard to say they're wrong as much as i want to.
"I know you don't like this opinion and I really don't care."
I dont expect you to care, i understand this opinion, i just wish you could try to understand mine.
Gary, you are incapable of changing the topic and incapable of changing your mind. You are a fanatic. I really do tire of hearing the same drivel over and over again ad nauseam. Talk about something else for once.
"Gary, you are incapable of changing the topic and incapable of changing your mind"
I do beleive it is you who intially decided to refute my claims so saying that i acn't change the topic is a little hypocrital given that from the very beginning ive been forced to defend my position from your scathing attacks.
"You are a fanatic"
Im not the one in another person country carrying a gun my friend. Im not the one who is likely to kill another human being for a false i ideal, you saying that to me is worth nothing.You can justify it all you want, tell yourself its all for your countries security and the somehow for the greater good but you are being decieved, to quote Joni Mitchell you're " caught in to devils bargain". I will openly admit my views are very very extreme and can be quite one sided at times but they are very malleable, they have been molded this way from reserching the kind of information that is purposely kept out of mainstream western media, andi have no doubt as i further educate myself they will change further, i base my beliefs on what i view to be morally right, and thats not going to change. I understand your position better than you think but thats all im going to say on the matter.
"I really do tire of hearing the same drivel over and over again ad nauseam."
Really then why did you feel the need to dipute my argument.
BTW did you read the article it does contain in it reasonably substantive evidence that supports much of what you and Enigmatic may claimed made me a fanatic for supporting, i like to see you refute Noam Chomsky.
I don't call you a fanatic for WHAT you support, I call you a fanatic for HOW you support it. Argumentum ad nauseam.
I call you a fanatic because you only seem to be able to talk about one subject, and talk about it you do. You even manage to bring up that one topic in discussions which have nothing to do with it. Quite frankly it's a irritating. If I listen to you ramble any longer, my ears are going to bleed.
Joe, I am with you! Assassination or not, Osama got it, got it good and should have taken a different approach to this whole thing if he didn't want that target on the back of his head. He may not have been the matermind, but he sure as hell enjoyed the fact that th towers went down and that many people were killed. That is sick and wrong!
I am glad that part is over, but I know the fight will continue.
I find this to be a very misguided and one sided view, first of all Osama (or any who fills his role) will succceed in killing as many people as america have in Iraq, and second of all american is supposed to stand for certain things but this is claer indication that it only stands for those principles when it suits. I refer you to the article and the interview bleow for further info. on these claims.
This one is about Osama death and mistruths we've been fed:
This is an artilce from a brave fearless defender of truth and a renowned journalist John Pilger on the real cost of the invasion of Iraq for the Iraqi people(please read i think you find it quite shocking but keep in mind its all true):
This is very similar to what happened to Julian Assange, he doesn't actually own/run Wikileaks at all, he just works with them. He then started to become the "Face of Wikileaks" and before you know it last we hear of him is that he's being arrested for rape in another country.
"to murder (a person, esp a public or political figure), usually by a surprise attack"
You could contest the word "murder", but such a potential argument seems fluffy and weak, for then no government could possibly "assassinate". Its a verb denoting a type of killing, whether or not its sanctioned by a government entity or not doesn't change the type of killing, only describes its acceptance. Dictionary.com would better describe the word by using the word "kill", than by using the word "murder".
You're completely missing the piont, the piont is that it was a planned assassination from the get go, they never intented on capturing him, he could have been alone in the compund naked and on his knees begging for his lief and they would have still blown his head off.
