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Besides lack of physical evidence, why not be religious or have faith?
As we all know many topics have generally had religion and science in mind. In particular, religion is thought to be nonsense because it does not have any phsycial evidence to proove it is "real". Other than lack of phsycial evidence, what is wrong with religion or the actuality that people do believe in something? What are your beefs with religion? Why does religion not make sense to you? Remember, other than lack of phsycial evidence, what else is there to support the atheist and similar mindsets. I am very curious about this myself and hopefully you'll give the forum your perspective.
I thought it said "Besides lack of physical activity, why be religious or faithful?" so I thought that it mean "Besides being fat and having no chance of getting laid before marriage, why be religious or faithful"
Remember, other than lack of phsycial evidence, what else is there to support the atheist and similar mindsets.
I think it's already been mentioned, but there doesn't need to be any other reason to reject a religious claim (or any kind of claim, for that matter). To paraphrase Bertrand Russel: "If something is true, then you should believe it. If it isn't true, then you shouldn't believe it. If you can't tell whether or not it is true, then you should reserve judgment until you can."
What's the harm in believing something despite having no evidence? What's wrong with believing something simply because it makes you feel good?
I think most atheists would agree that, in the privacy of one's own mind, it's not much of a big deal. Believe whatever you want, however far-fetched it might be. The problems arise once these beliefs start having influence over people other than yourself. When important decisions start being made based not on empirical data and rational thought, but on fanatical religious beliefs and superstition.
It's difficult to make a good decision based on bad information. Without supporting evidence, a religious claim has a good chance of being bad information. How is this harmful? It depends on the decision being made.
The evidence is overwhelming, as I've stated before. Our ancestors have long sought the question 'am i alone in this universe', or "why are we here" ect ect. The notion has never seized to exist, it is ongoing. On that fact alone, everyone is talking about the same thing (existence of a higher being) just in different ways (different religions), this merits alone that something must be true, must be fact, they must have seen or heard something true concerning a higher being. But really thats not why I believe, because people believed. I believe because I've felt something, I've been "told" something by some thing I cannot see, the emotion if overwhelming, I believe because this universe is amazing, and science can show me some things to questions I have. But what science can't show me, my beliefs take over. I can't show you that I am happy, other than with my smile or the things i say and do, but how can any man really show their emotion, within?
Please give me at least 3 things you want to know about life, the universe and everything that science has no answer to.
I am not talking about an unsatisfactory answer, like after death. It is clear that after death, the brain dies, along with all memory and consciousness. A soul does not seem to exist, so I would not count on existing afterwards. A wish for immortality is not an honest question. It is just a selfish longing to never disappear.
Give me some questions. I want to know how far you've thought about everything.
It seems a bit sad, and I suppose some people want more, but the truth appears to be that we are spinning around a massive galaxy, orbiting an average sized star and our life is to be enjoyed only for the life we enjoy. There is no higher purpose but to simply be here.
Study it, make art, have a family, change the world, those are all options, but in the end, there is no set purpose.
You must choose it yourself. That is reality. These questions you cannot find answers to can be found with observation of the real world, and with philosophy.
Philosophy alone can give logical answers, but reality is not always so logical.
Looking at how it really is, and combining that with philosophy will lead you to a solution.
The coldest, hardest truths are also some of the most fascinating.
Science cannot show, nor tell me, why I believe in a creator. Their best answer is that I am emotionally driven with a human mind, that's not good enough. Science cannot show me what made (not what the universe is made of) the universe, they've got theories, that's it. Science cannot explain to me why the human brain and body is the most complex thing in the universe. Science cannot tell me why certain frequencies make matter (sand, metal, the human being, ect) shape and form into certain sizes and shapes, why music manipulates the mind and body. Science cannot show me, nor tell me, why and how Deja Vu exists. Science cannot show me why pi and the golden ratio exists in this non perfect world. Science cannot and will not ever answer these questions. Science cannot and will not ever have an answer to the "unknowns" (as i like to call it) of this life, including some of what I've stated above. Science will never be able to explain without a doubt that a god does not exist.
I do not claim that religion will explain these to me either, I simply make a point that my faith in a creator is reason bases, is logical, is rational, is natural. Faith and religion do not go hand in hand, in my opinion. My faith in a creator has little to do with religion and more to do that my mind, soul, and body does not stop at what's right in front of me; my mind, soul, and body generally desires to know what's beyond the horizon, what's not spoon fed to me. Faith, hope, these aspects can answer some of the questions that I've stated above. Science falls short in many aspects of my life.
For every discovery that science makes, there are a billion other things that science has yet to discover. The congo, the ocean, the land. How many species have yet to be discovered? A thousand? A billion? A trillion? And ultimately, science attempts to claim that it will one day discover every single undiscovered corner of this world and universe, and quite frankly I believe that to be impossible. IMO, natures goal is not for the human mind to comprehend, nor discover its secret. IMO, natures goal is to keep us (humans) at bay to merely keep us in awe of its beauty, not necessarily to fully understand its beauty.
The evidence is overwhelming, as I've stated before.
Overwhelming to you.
Our ancestors have long sought the question 'am i alone in this universe', or "why are we here" ect ect.
As do we.
The notion has never seized to exist, it is ongoing. On that fact alone, everyone is talking about the same thing (existence of a higher being) just in different ways (different religions), this merits alone that something must be true,
Argumentum Ad Populum.
they must have seen or heard something true concerning a higher being.
Or maybe an infantile species that was learning about it's world through cause and effect made a leap of faith to explain that which seemed overwhelmingly complex.
I believe because I've felt something, I've been "told" something by some thing I cannot see, the emotion if overwhelming
This is called euphoria, it can be experienced through music and intimacy as well, welcome to your brain's reward system.
I believe because this universe is amazing,
Leap of faith and baseless.
But what science can't show me, my beliefs take over.
God of gaps.
I can't show you that I am happy, other than with my smile or the things i say and do, but how can any man really show their emotion, within?
If we can observe something in our world, it exists. If I see a pig, flying around in space, then I can confidently say that flying space pigs exist. If we can observe it, it is natural too. So if I see my flying space pig, it is natural.
What if I can't see my flying space pig? Well it isn't natural. And we can't prove he exists.
Now substitute "flying space pig" for "deity/God/demon".
If the sun was like in that show "teletubbies" and had a face on it that directed commands every once in awhile, then YES, I would accept the sun, the giver of life on Earth as god.
But the sun is not like that. It is just a massive nuclear furnace.
If gods were something that could be seen, not just in ancient times, when people were primitive and thought evil spirits caused disease, being evil in a past life justified poverty and suffering in the current one and other untrue phenomenon, but actually be seen NOW, I would believe.
If I could climb to Mt Sinai and have God give everyone who made the climb a copy of the Ten Commandments, I would believe.
If humans were born with a Bible or holy book next to them, if it just materialized, I would believe.
If there was ANY evidence that a god was real, not just vague evidence, but direct proof that the supernatural was something everyone could observe if they wanted to, and then go on to show others and convince even skeptics, then I would believe.
But that's not how life is. It appears to be devoid of magic and demons and ghosts. A few crazy people believe in that stuff, but no, if you are going to take the search seriously, you won't find anything like that in reality.
Otherwise you could win a million dollars from Randi.
Exactly. And this is why I laugh whenever I see some bumbling pseudo-scientist try and prove the supernatural.
If you can empirically prove it, it's not supernatural. When Kent Hovind says he's seen Jesus in his Cheetos, he's disproving one of the basic foundations of religion.
The only way to prove the supernatural to an atheist would be via a logical, rational argument. Unfortunately, they appear to be running quite low at the moment...
The supernatural isn't even a concept to me at this point.
It's like, there is nothing supernatural. It's just a dead word used by primitive people who can't find real explanations for things that happen, right? I mean, this world has nothing supernatural. It's pointless to debate it, because there IS no debate. There is no logic to it.
Quantum mechanics is the closest thing to the supernatural- yet, it is not supernatural at all.
It is perfectly natural and helps the universe function. It's just something that exists. Same with gravity.
I read that Isaac Newton was almost jailed for dabbling in the occult.
The issue was magical forces that could effect other objects from a distance. Kinda like gravity. Exactly like gravity.
Anyone who thinks the supernatural is real is a loon. It's not real and CAN'T be real by definition.
And the damage it does to society is enough to keep me grumbling as well.
Just to clarify.. You claim that science is synonymous with ultimate truth? I disagree, science is not absolute truth, it is education guesses that tend to make sense and have some facts, yet not all science related in absolute truth, it is impossible for science to gain that which it desires, and that is the ultimate truth of everything in life. Science will, and has, fallen short with even its agenda.
Only a complete dumb ass speaks of "absolute truth."
Wow, and upon reading the rest of your post, it seems that's the tangent you stay on.
Absolute truth, ultimate reality, pure consciousness and those other vague words that point to something that is NEVER able to be shown with logic or evidence all points to whatever you are saying.
Reality is awesome, and that is a decent truth. If you want to make up supernatural bullshit, then go ahead, but I'll stick to reality.
So now you're insinuating I'm a dumbass because I'm reciprocating back what you were telling me in the first place? C'mon now person, you're no greater than anyone else. And that's a FACT.
Because the world has enough beauty, and pain, without a supernatural being getting involved. You should be happy with what you have, and able to understand that dreams are dreams, nothing more. Instead of looking to the sky for answers, look to yourself, and be aware that there is nothing more important in the world than yourself, and what you do, so do it well.
So other than lack of physical evidence, there is nothing else that an atheist could say to oppose religion? That is all? That is pretty boring if you ask me, and monotonous. I'd rather believe in the tooth fairy, unicorns, and bigfoot and have an imagination than to not believe in a higher being just because I am not spoon fed it.
Y'know, there are many things I'd like to do with my life. I'd like to relocate to Scandinavia, I'd love to be a pokemaster, perhaps I'd like to do something musical. But, I digress.
The one thing I would love to do would be to introduce Quantum mechanics to creationists. There's a myth surrounding naturalism that it's boring, and dull, and unimaginative. But just look at the crazy shit we have going on in the quantum world.
You have particles being in two places at once, particles literally going straight through walls, everything in the universe being entangled with each other, infinitesimally small strings vibrating like crazy, causing mass fluctuations of energy, creating everything we see around us.
On levels of imagination, trust me, the world of the quantum requires waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy more imagination than some copy-paste God. And the best part is? Quantum mechanics is fact.
Einstein once said "if quantum mechanics is true, then the world is crazy".
Copy-paste? Lol thats always the general answer, that I believe now because it was implanted into my mind, my DNA. I find that false. I believe because I choose to, not because my past told me I must believe.
Congratulations on completely ignoring the point of my post. You said that faith requires more imagination than believing in the natural. I'd like to think I did a decent job of disproving that.
The copy-paste comment had nothing to do with what you believe, it was to show that nearly all gods are ripped off from some ancient pagan predecessor.
What else do you want? Are you looking for some silly answer that no one has ever thought of before?
It hurts people, limits knowledge, oppressed entire groups of people and is just a very bad thing.
If you don't realize this, then you are probably one of them, and think you are completely correct, because you have a god backing whatever you say.
If you won't accept that there is no evidence, then accept that it hurts people.
If you cannot accept that, then there is little left I can think of. Atheism is simply not believing that gods exist.
There is no other doctrine. I just prefer science because it can get us to the moon, give us lights and microwaves and radio and internet and computers. Religion gets us war and strife and division between people.
I'm not looking for a specific answer, I simply thought there might be another intellectual answer than the standard "no physical evidence? no god." I understand that there is pain and suffering, anguish and hate, and all the other bad things in life. However, to blame religion is absurd. If you're going to blame anything then blame mankind or human error. There is also love, compassionate, genuine-ness in life and so then according to your theory, god should exist because those things also exist.
God should also exist because those things also exist? How?
That's silly. Love is proof of love. If you've seen the bound of a mother and child, then you have seen love.
If you have seen a man doing something nice for another less fortunate for no reason whatsoever, then you have seen compassion and genuine feelings. But the feeling of god? The devoutness of a nun or priest?
Of which religion? The Ancient Egyptian high priests were quite devout, for they built massive pyramids.
The Mayans also had their gods they respected. As so Muslims who attack and kill people because some people made a movie about their prophet, and Christians also have a god. Because these gods contradict each other and because there is so much war and horror to the religion, even if it WAS true, it would be right for the wrong reasons.
There is no reason to believe that the supernatural exists, except in people's minds.
In reality, it isn't real.
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And what? I am blaming religion for problems that religion cause. I did not mention starvation of people in poor countries or disease or anything outside of religion's influence that is bad.
Are you joking? Did you make a fucking strawman or something and then burn it to death?
You have got to get your head on straight. You sound absolutely insane.
Wow, you claim love is proof of love, then let hate be proof of hate! Do not let the downfall of mankind be on the shoulders of those who believe, that is absurd.
Religion DID cause those things I listed above, ESPECIALLY the Muhammad movie issues. This is not a matter of love or hate, this is pure superstition out of control causing death and damage.
Whether or not it is real is not decided by people though, I admit.
However, there is still no reason to believe. People tell me to believe, but a god has never spoken to me.
I see the Earth and universe as beautiful, far more beautiful than any creation from any being. It is a mystery to be explored and admired.
I never said you were wrong, or that I am right. Besides, this website is giving me trouble, it's not letting me bring down the "Show Replies" area to backtrack with the discussion. I can't even see the comments that I wrote.
Oh and for the record, I never stated whether I believe in god, or gods. If you must know yes I believe there is a higher being out there that created this complex and beautiful universe; mother nature herself speaks to me, and if you don't believe me I really don't care for I cannot physically show you, that is impossible. Believe one thing, your arguments against religion are very dull and very vague and very standard, just like many other atheists.
Ok. That's a good thing. I don't want to make up insane examples that would illustrate my point better.
Einstein said, “Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.” This is wise, I think.
There are many reasons I could list, such as the god of the gaps problem, where as science uncovers mysteries once dominated by superstition and religion, religion is pulled back until it's more of a deist religion, and god has no purpose but to provide comfort or something.
It is just the acquiring of knowledge and information about things, along with new ideas that leads me to think that there is no gods, and that they are only made up by humans who wanted to know who and why they are.
Look I will defend those who have faith, of whatever religion, till the day I die, and beyond. I didn't ask this question to get any answers that I desire, I really am curious and interested in opinions as your, as well as others. Further, I too desire knowledge in and of itself day in and day out. As a believer, in a god, I find myself in a defensive stance against those who do not believe for those who don't believe tend to attack, for lack of better words, those that do. I once heard an atheist tell a believe that it was up to the believer to prove to the atheist that god does exist because they claim god to exist, and not the other way around. I find that to be complete nonsense. It is up to mankind to believe or to not believe and not push and force any beliefs down anyones throat. I do not see any of us doing that on this forum, thank god (no pun intended). My dream is to have both science and religion work together to truly find out what is going on. And according to me, it's better to have many intellectuals figuring out a problem with different viewpoints, than one side or the other figuring it out alone; we're all in this together after all so why not? Maybe the future of mankind is to not not have religion, but to merge together? Who knows? I will continue to dream on so that one day it will become a reality and two dividing forces.
Then go ahead and defend it? The problem is it isn't real.
And yes, you do have to prove that it's right. In the past, you proved it with swords and an iron fist, and now, in the age of internet, I'd like some real proof.
If I said flying green space monkeys are real, and you HAVE to believe me and accept it and respect that I think that, and that if you didn't believe, those green monkeys would find you and tear your head off very slowly someday, you would not believe that.
BUT what if I showed you a flying green space monkey? Then you would have to accept it.
You're a damn fool if you don't realize that. Religion has fucked up enough society and I'm quite tired of it.
You are not a defender, you are an offender, telling me to respect beliefs that have no logic or reason or even grain of truth to them.
How can you say I am lying when I am telling you my honest truth? I don't appreciate being lied to either, but I don't tell you that you are lying to me because you don't believe. C'mon now, that's ridiculous. I am a defender of my own faith, to the very least. I dont speak for others, but I do defend the fact that people to and will continue to believe, so long as mankind is existent.
Yes, it is fine to believe what one desires, but when it is leaking into the school systems, telling children that Christian creationism is correct, and not other beliefs, NONE of which are based on any real life evidence, when gay marriage is outlawed, where atheists are looked down on as scum, simply for having the courage to doubt and where war is happening all over the world, where insane Christians shoot up Muslim children, where Muslims murder people over movies, where Christians force women to have babies they can't take care of, dooming them to an unwanted and unhappy life devoid of love, then I find religion repulsive to the extreme.
I do not speak badly of Buddhism, for although I do not agree with their philosophy, I have never met a Buddhist that has tried to convert me or tell me what is right or wrong in life. Most sects of Buddhism is not supernatural, so I do not see flaws with it.
Where the supernatural is concerned, I would like to see proof, or I will see you as nothing more than a liar.
Holy crap you piss me off, so here's another attack on your bullshit.
First, religion has oppressed EVERYONE for THOUSANDS of years. You think that it's something noble?
You think just because you are young, and see it all as equal, that religion is equal to science?
Science is VERY new to humanity, and since the scientific method has been invented, life itself for nearly all people on Earth has become so much better than it was. Do you really want to return to those days where slavery, witch burning and other insane actions like that were ok? Not just ok, but justified and allowable by the religion explicit? You might not be a Christian, as those rules apply to, but your belief system is NOT mine, and because you cannot prove your crap, then you should not be allowed to enforce it onto me.
That's why science is taught in school. You can actually prove it wrong.
Religion gets idiots like you who say "No matter what you say, I will defend the faith". That's called being ignorant. Worse than that even.
It's the sort of thinking that leads to the dark ages.
To an epoch of darkness and decay, where thinking is stifled, and those who look up from their ancient texts are considered heretics and burned to death.
Those days have happened before many times. It appears to be happening in the Middle East.
Do you want it global? Just the entire world to become a superstitious nightmare?
You are insane. You believe things without reason, and despite how harmless it may be as just an individual person believing it, you are here trying to convert people to your way of thinking.
You have no proof, only an emotionally based attempt to get people to trust you.
It's deceitful and disgusting.
You are the one attacking, and you have been for thousands of years.
Finally we have the technology, brought to us by science and discovery of the natural world, the technology to help all people around the world, but then I hear Christians say "Why help other people? Starving children probably go to heaven. It's God's plan." and you know what?
That's bullshit, and people like you propagate it. Religion has caused and IS causing millions of people to suffer, from gay couples who cannot marry to children who are starving, to riots and murder in the Middle East caused by a simple movie to witch burning that is happening TODAY in Africa.
Religion is poison and you are the poisoner.
If you can't back up your religion with facts, logic and evidence, then you can only back it up with lies, insanity and anecdotes that sound clever, but can NEVER be proven as true.
That makes you simply incorrect, and you can believe what you want, but it is not true and it is wrong and if you spread it outside your own house, you are hurting people and spreading untrue information.
