An Honest Question for Christians....
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This is a very good question. There is something called "General Revelation" as a explanation for those who had known about God or believed a God existed but during a time when either a) the Bible never existed to hear from or b) they had never been exposed to it. Yes, nature is one, but I would think having a family is a big one. If you ever become a parent and see your newborn child for the first time, hold it, care for it...you come to realize new things you never thought of before. Love has a newer and deeper meaning because for the first time you know what it truly feels like to love something more than yourself, that you would literally die for it. I think in those experience, people come to ponder about God and that there is more to life than just random biological processes that are running. Love is intentional and something so intentional seems far fetched to believe it's just from a random source. But you didn't answer my question, sir. You only mentioned the joys and love and good feelings anybody can get--even an atheist like me. I asked Christians or those who believe in god how they can FEEL Him? How they know he exists and is in their world and actually cares and even knows about them. What is your god experience? How does it differ from something just in your head? 1
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Actually, feelings is very deceptive. It's not about "feeling". If you "feel" God that most likely means you are just fooling yourself because anyone can be made to feel anything and make it real because you "feel" it. Experiencing God is not a feeling. It's based on faith. Truth is not based on feelings either. Feelings are very deceptive and wishy-washy. I've seen many christians who came back from a conference or camp with an emotional high but 99% it always wanes and they go back to their old routine. It's never about feelings. You can't base the truth of God's existence on "feelings". It's about faith. It's about believing. You simply choose to believe or you don't believe. In the Bible, it never says that you will be rewarded for your feelings. Nobody ever says I know because I feel it. It's all about faith. Some have it, some don't. I appreciate you adopting a more civil and less condescending tone here. It is far more respectful so I hope you keep it. I think logicaljoe has provided some fine points which are similar to what I would say. If I were unfamiliar with the concept of a personal and loving God, the best thing I think I could be able to do would be to begin externally and work my way inwards; that is, taking my interactions and experiences with the world, (esp. people) and assessing the responses they provoke within me (mentally, physically and moreover emotionally). A prime example of this would be the emotions evoked when one sees their child born. If I were to take the world as a clinical existence merely comprising of various biological and chemical processes and then concluding that this is all there is, then it erases the meaning of whatever experiences I have and sensibilities that accompany them. For instance, if someone very close to me passes away and I feel grief, a traditionally atheistic perspective would be that death is a natural process which the body must succumb to as we are finite beings, ergo it is expected that it shall return to its original form as will we all. The most it will account for are the tears I may shed, a physical manifestation of the great sadness I feel, but it will not account for anything else. It is an objective but cold explanation concerned with the fact alone, not the meaning behind it. After analysing things in this way it would be difficult for me to believe that the mere construct of my body is all that characterises my existence. It also would not answer other burning questions I may have: such as why I exist in the first place and the meaning of the life I have (typical philosophical questions). But nevertheless, what really cements a steadfast belief in God is relationship one has with Him, full of love and assurance and conviction - like a Father with His child. Only then would I say that the sense of complete fulfilment is felt to the extent that it is impossible to ever renounce that belief. So yes, your latter points are very correct, because that cannot be obtained via reading alone. And the closer you are, the more distinct His thoughts become from your own. My post is fairly long so I shall leave it there for now but feel free to enquire further. A prime example of this would be the emotions evoked when one sees their child born. If I were to take the world as a clinical existence merely comprising of various biological and chemical processes and then concluding that this is all there is, then it erases the meaning of whatever experiences I have and sensibilities that accompany them. But that is just you and how you personally would look at the world, and look at life itself, if you thought there was no god. It does not tell us how you "feel" or "experience" god. How you KNOW he is at work in your life and he loves you. Or even knows you exist. And I do NOT think life is meaningless. I too experience joy and love and wonder and child-like awe and reverence for Nature and life, and am grateful for our short time here. These experiences are also felt by many if not most atheists. We simply find we do not need a belief in an absentee god to experience love and joy and empathy for our fellows. We can shed tears too. We don't need a god for this. So I was just wondering why you guys do? And how you can tell that he is working in your life. Thus far I have not received any answers to this question from Christians. I want you to look at how I answered Slappy here (he referred to himself as "Slappy", so it's not a slur), and there is one other answer I want you to look at... .....Ok, even though your question is formatted so that no answer is acceptable, I will answer your questions and from the start I can tell you that as long as you say there is no God, you MUST reject every answer. Christians: if you never were taught about God as a child, or as an adult even. If you never read the bible, or knew even that it existed, if you never went to a church service and was subjected to a sermon, or never read any theology, what do you see, or feel, or experience in the everyday world that makes you think there is a Personal and Loving God? Make you think that the creator of the Known Universe not only knows you exist, but loves you? What do you see and feel? That, say, I an atheist cannot? Like when I feel love or am at peace with the world and my station in it? When I am in awe at the wonder and beauty of the natural world? After all: your God would surely provide you with some type of "feeling" or "sense" or even "proof" of his existence. And certainly not rely only on his followers having to only get their feel for Him from reading. What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts? Your first question is a hypothetical where you are pretty much asking Christians to imagine themselves to be void of any social contact which may have ever said the word "God". I guess you are asking Christians to imagine they were adopted by wolves or chimpanzees, raised into adulthood, and then somehow assimilated into modern society where they heard about God. The fact remains that we have an innate awareness of God because we are more than animals, we are made in the image of God. Even an atheist who denies God is God knows exactly who is being denied, God is being denied. You have to make a willful choice to say "there is no God", and you know who you are rejecting when you make that choice because it is the very essence of your being made in God's image which you are denying. God created you to know Him (an understatement of His purpose for you). Deny His existence all you want, you can never make Him go away. Saying "there is no God" until you are blue in the face won't get rid of Him. You are trying to deny the essence of your being by denying that you are made in the image of God. Each individual makes that choice no matter what they hear or do not hear from others around them. God gives you the freedom to make the wrong choice, He will not force you to love Him, He will not force you to be thankful to Him, He will not force you to trust Him. He gives you the freedom to reject Him because He loves you. If you return to Him, you will be His. If you will not return to Him, you never were His even though He loved you as if you were His. Some of us have realized that He loves us and we have returned to Him. You have not realized that He loves you, you have decided He does not love you, you have rejected Him and His love. That is your choice. You have excluded all possibility of believing He loves you be saying "there is no God". That is your choice and there is no answer that can change your mind if you will not believe God is God. Your next question, with many rhetorical points summed up as "you have no proof, you can't prove God is God" You ask what a Christian can see or feel that you as an atheist cannot feel? That's very simple, friend. We can see and feel the things you exclude by saying there is no God. We see His glory revealed in Creation, and we feel THANKFULNESS to Him for creating us. YOU CANNOT FEEL THANKFULNESS TO GOD BECAUSE YOU ARE THANKLESS TOWARD HIM IN DENYING HE IS GOD. Oh sure, you can feel thankful for nature, you can feel wonder and joy in seeing the beauty of nature.....but the thing you cannot feel is thankful for being actively loved without any limitations of time or space. Yes you can enjoy being loved by people, but their love will be limited by time in their death so their love comes with pain. There is no pain or sorrow in the love God gives. He took our pain and sorrow on Himself and paid the price in death for the cause of pain and sorrow which is sin. All of the feelings you claim to have equal to the feelings Christians have will forever fall short as you deny knowing God's love. That is your choice my friend. You don't know what you are missing, you are fooling yourself to believe you know the highest form of love or joy. You cannot know those things when you reject God's love as you are doing. You'll spend your whole life making excuses and trying to blame God for your own choice of rejecting Him, and you can never admit to missing out on anything, you'll forever have to say you are as good as God and as good as Christians.......correct in saying you are as good as Christians because we have all sinned against God and all have gone bad and are corrupt by sin but completely willfully blind to the fact that you are NOT as good as God, willfully blind to the fact that your joy, your wonder, your love is nothing compared to His because yours is rife with the corruption of sin. By your own choice, you cannot see the glory of God and you cannot feel His love, you cannot feel thankful toward Him. Christians can. We have proof. You can't have it because you deny it. You lose. Sorry. For your last question, "What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts?" Simple, friend. It's FAITH. You can't have it because you deny God is God. Faith comes from God, it is ingrained in the essence of your being, but you reject it willfully by your own choice, and saying you can make no other choice but to deny God is a lie. You say "NO GOD" so you can't have faith. Sorry, you lose that way by your own choice. The other answer I want you to look at is from Insti8tor, and my reply to him.... instig8or(2969) 1 point When I feel happy, it is nice. I can't touch it or kill it so it is like God. If happiness is real so is god. Thanks. Saintnow(3214) Clarified 1 point That comes from being made in the image of God.....there will always be things that make you say, "this is like God". Even Slap Shot is doing the same thing when he talks about his wonders and joys, claiming his are like God while denying God gives those things to him by making Slap Shot in His own image. That's quite a profound statement you made there, "I can't touch or kill the feeling of happiness, so if happiness is real, God is real". Nice. That's kinda the feeling I had for many years as I explored reality and religion from every angle I could get into, including atheism and evolution both of which I considered and rejected on logical and philosophical basis. For me, since happiness was always changing and never constant, I looked for what is constant, the immutable concept of right and wrong. I believed something had to be right and always right and wrong must always be wrong, but I was not sure what was really right........but it was a concept I could not touch or kill, but I had to believe what is really right is really there waiting for me to know it for sure if I can just figure it out. It was like God, if there is something that is really right, then God is real and if there is nothing that is really right then there is nothing that makes sense and I simply never could believe life and reality are nonsense, meaningless, purposeless. I could not touch or kill the concept of objective truth, it was like God. If it is real, God is real.......and I found out that it is real, and God is real, and His love is real, and revealed fully in human form of God the Man Jesus Christ who loved me while I was at odds with Him in my sins, and died for my sins and paid my price to pull me out of my sins, out of death, keeping me out of Hell in His resurrection. Very profound thing you said there. Thanks. I will use that line more in the future, modifying the words of course so I won't be plagiarizing from you. I guess it would be dependent on my outlook in life and personal experiences. I think many still have their friends family hopes dreams goals and things they enjoy. So I guess I'd I were miserable I'd assume if there were a God He must be miserable, if I were happy I'd assume Him to be pleasant despite what is around me in news, or struggles. Struggles are a part of life, I don't think I'd blame God. I hold to the idea that we are who we are because of the roads we travel, the happier you are with who you are, not what you have, but who you are, then you can embrace your traveled roads as the friend who sharpened you, made you wiser, pulled you through tough experiences, pulled others up, had compassion because who would you be if there were nothing to overcome, fight for, stand for, and be passionate about. Experiences are sometimes the worst, but they can make you a better you. But you didn't answer my question, sir. You only mentioned the joys and love and good feelings anybody can get--even an atheist like me. I asked Christians or those who believe in god how they can FEEL Him? How they know he exists and is in their world and actually cares and even knows about them. What is your god experience? How does it differ from something just in your head? Didn't you ask to answer based on experience alone? I told you how I feel Him before? When I talk about riding rushing living water like white water rafting, I'm being poetic but it's not far off from how I actually "feel Him" Things drop out of my mouth and give myself wisdom. So when He says don't worry about the answer, I understand that by experience. I'm not even in a church right now, I kind of fell away for a while. And I can run circles around a Bible scholar if the Spirit within me answers. And He doesn't always. Sometimes He is silent. But I know when He talks, and I know when He pushes me or brings me where He wants me to be. And I know that He does that because I've experienced it. I have a gift of discernment, and sometimes I can see through the strangest things, and see the spiritual forces under it. Again not always, but when I do, I know what I see. You can ask my kids who don't want to believe at times, and they will tell you crazy wisdom and understanding pops out in the right time, and I love when it happens. It is filling and feeds me in my spirit, as it feeds someone else. Here is the funny part, God moved mountains to bring me back recently, and I'm still working my way back. I have been extremely humbled by my diversions, not publicly, but embarrassed privately. And He used no man to speak to me and bring me back, and I wasn't trying to hear Him either. But I prayed 30 years ago when I accepted Him, during a very dramatic experiential conversion, and I asked that I be a sheep in His hand and no one not even me can pluck me out. I was fervent for years, life happened and eventially I fell asleep. So over the last 2 years He orchestrated a series of events that shook everything out of place beyond a reasonable coincidence, and I was in a place that He could speak after He removed the stones I buried myself under. And still I resisted, because if there is one thing I won't do, is profess Him, and be against Him. I won't pretend when it comes to my walk with God. I never did. I also never did or would deny Him if I was in against Him. Because I know Him and I knew Him, and He doesn't deserve that, and my rebellion isn't His. So then how did He finally wake me up, through debating political and standing on what was right. And then I realized what time of day it was, and I still hadn't turned back. But I knew what time of day it was. So I still stood on what I knew to be right, and I'd still say what I knew about the One I know! And because I don't pretend, I'd be like I know this and I know Him, but I won't pretend I made amends. And so the Spirit never left me, even though I left Him. And in my stubbornness even now He shows me things I don't deserve to know. And the only thing I can say is God would rather me hot or cold but Luke warm, that's the worst thing to be. So when I say truth it's not an attitude of pride, it's actually an attitude of humility. Because I know Him, and I know just how small I really am, and honestly I wouldn't have it any other way. So I'm grateful for falling away, for falling asleep, I'm grateful for all the bad things that ever happened before I came to Him in the first place, and for all the bad things that I incurred by stepping away from Him. Because I'd rather spend a life humbled and disciplined of the Lord than to miss the opportunity to know Him. Now if your asking what does He sound like, it's complicated because it's not audible for my ears, it isn't even a wow idea in my head like a brain storm, it's understanding and thoughts of understanding. It's that silent moment of aha now I see moment that you get when you just understand someone without a word. It comes with thoughts of understanding like if you looked at you girlfriend and your whole week passed before your eyes and you understand why she is frustrated or struggling or even joyful, and it's feeling it to by understanding. Not by analysis. Often I have scriptures that connect to something and I want to take notes! Sometimes the speed of those thoughts of understanding are hard to catch, so I catch a few, but my Spirit catches them all. Sometimes when I take notes or God gives me pieces to write notes or share, I'm glad I wrote them because I am an egg head without the Spirit. It's like He brings things to remembrance like Niagara Falls, and the next minute I'm like duh Let me look at what I wrote because I can't make it happen! The Bible says the Spirit is like wind you don't know where it comes from nor where it goes, and that is my experience. Living Waters rushing like the sound of rushing water Sometimes I hear His voice in my understanding and it sounds like thunder and other times it feels like quiet knowing. Does that answer your questions? I've seen a lot of emptiness in atheist. I wouldn't say you couldn't be happy and love and have morals, but I'd say the likelihood that you would establish deep roots would be the difficulty. And then to be around others who don't establish deep roots can be pretty empty. There is an influence that has been borrowed by the atheist and the agnostic, and even the "believing unbelievers." We are seeing the socialism so to speak of that deposit progressing today, and if your good at understanding people, it doesn't take to much people watching to realize that the deposit is running low, and there is no way to refill it from atheist camaraderie. Because you may have some left still in your bank, others have alot less stored for them. And your kids will have what you have left over till the well runs dry. I'm right there on accusations of hypocrisy, and I'm one to hold myself accountable by what I know is true. But even those, atleast a large portion have more stored up, so even in hypocrisy the influence is stronger, than 1 step or 2 steps removed in a family of atheist surrounded by atheists. What moves you, and what can you trust will move others? It's not perfect but atleast it's better than letting nothing take its place. I've seen a lot of emptiness in atheist. I wouldn't say you couldn't be happy and love and have morals, but I'd say the likelihood that you would establish deep roots would be the difficulty. And then to be around others who don't establish deep roots can be pretty empty. There is a sweetness that makes life palatable and its influence deposits genuine goodness, and that is a disposition that has been borrowed by the atheist and the agnostic, and even the "believing unbelievers." Borrowed from your parents, a caring neighbor, an aunt, a teacher, many people that brought light because they have known light or at least knew of light through the light of others. But what happens when the light goes out? We are seeing the socialism of atheism now, so to speak. We see of that deposit progressing today, and if your good at understanding people, it doesn't take to much people watching to realize that the deposit is running low, and there is no way to refill it from atheist camaraderie. Because you may have some left still in your bank, others have alot less stored for them. And your kids will have what you have left over till the well runs dry. I'm right there on accusations of hypocrisy, and I'm one to hold myself accountable by what I know is true. But even those, atleast a large portion have more stored up, so even in hypocrisy the influence is stronger, than 1 step or 2 steps removed in a family of atheist surrounded by atheists. What moves you, and what can you trust will move others? It's not perfect but atleast it's better than letting nothing take its place. I guess my question is if you write your epitaph, and epitaph of atheists you know, it may reveal a different story? What is in front of you, and where did you come from, and what did it all mean? Then write you grandmother's or someone you know who lived with that something more, it would be interesting to see That comes from being made in the image of God.....there will always be things that make you say, "this is like God". Even Slap Shot is doing the same thing when he talks about his wonders and joys, claiming his are like God while denying God gives those things to him by making Slap Shot in His own image. That's quite a profound statement you made there, "I can't touch or kill the feeling of happiness, so if happiness is real, God is real". Nice. That's kinda the feeling I had for many years as I explored reality and religion from every angle I could get into, including atheism and evolution both of which I considered and rejected on logical and philosophical basis. For me, since happiness was always changing and never constant, I looked for what is constant, the immutable concept of right and wrong. I believed something had to be right and always right and wrong must always be wrong, but I was not sure what was really right........but it was a concept I could not touch or kill, but I had to believe what is really right is really there waiting for me to know it for sure if I can just figure it out. It was like God, if there is something that is really right, then God is real and if there is nothing that is really right then there is nothing that makes sense and I simply never could believe life and reality are nonsense, meaningless, purposeless. I could not touch or kill the concept of objective truth, it was like God. If it is real, God is real.......and I found out that it is real, and God is real, and His love is real, and revealed fully in human form of God the Man Jesus Christ who loved me while I was at odds with Him in my sins, and died for my sins and paid my price to pull me out of my sins, out of death, keeping me out of Hell in His resurrection. Very profound thing you said there. Thanks. I will use that line more in the future, modifying the words of course so I won't be plagiarizing from you. God reaches out to you personally. You have set up a wall, a mental block, by saying no to Him. You made that choice, you set up that wall, and this whole discussion proposal of yours is graffiti on that wall......... Put that in your thesis on evolutionary psychology............ You failed to answer my question. And so far none of you has. Which does not bode well for the existence of your god if even his believers cannot provide a simple explanation of how they know he is working in their lives? How do you "feel" him. What kind of feeling or sense of him do you have that I don't like when I experience joy and love and awe for beauty and nature. What is your god doing for you? Why can't you answer? I am taking your hostility to be a sign I answered you a simple polite and sincere question that you cannot answer, as your only feel for god is through your indoctrination. You're not making a good case at all for the joys of believing in god or why anybody should bother. Nor how he enriches your life. I thought you guys might do a bit better than this. You format your "question" in a way that no answer is acceptable. Your "question" is hostile to Christians. You are hostile against God, you have said it yourself many times i different words like "I'm a rabid atheist". And then you feel insulted? Please. Your philosophy is self-destructive and you hope in escape you cannot be sure of, and that's why you are hostile........trying to blame God and trying to blame Christians for your own choice of keeping yourself separated from God....like you expect God or Christians to knock down that wall you have built. It's not possible, God gives you the freedom to set up the mental block wall in your mind, to reject Him and to believe you escape justice in death. Hold onto your wall, and write your graffiti thesis on it. Is that hostile of me, insulting? What do you expect with the way you are acting so hostile against God and against Christians. You start with the assumption that evolution is true and there is no God. You conclude with your assumption. How circular can reasoning be? Because your logic is circular, linear logic is excluded. Life does not come from non-life, consciousness does not come from lifeless matter. Believing anything different is nonsensical, so you have to use circular reasoning and declare your beliefs to be conclusive so you rule out logic..........and why? Why do you think this way? It's because you want to deny God's judgement over your words, thoughts, and actions, you want to excuse your own sins. It's not possible to get yourself out of being you. You will answer to God no matter how you twist your reasoning against Him.......and your reasoning is twisted, nonsensical, a waste of time. ' God reaches out to you personally, but you exclude Him with circular reasoning..................... Put that in your evolutionary psychology thesis. Agaain!!! Another Christian who cannot answer a simple question. I am disappointed in your guys. All you did was make the claim that you believe in god and he is real and then you got hostile and insulted me. All I asked was what type of feeling you have of him? What sort of sense? How do you know he is real and loves you and why would you know this if you had never read the bible or been taught it as a child? Surely an all powerful and loving god would provide his followers with a sense of him that us atheists cannot know? So what is it? You guys are so far simply fortifying my belief that the vast majority of you only believe in god because you were taught to. And you WANT there to be a god. Yet....you cannot truthfully claim he does any tangible works in your life. How sad. SS You format your "question" in a way that no answer is acceptable. Your "question" is hostile to Christians. You are hostile against God, you have said it yourself many times i different words like "I'm a rabid atheist". And then you feel insulted? Please. Your philosophy is self-destructive and you hope in escape you cannot be sure of, and that's why you are hostile........trying to blame God and trying to blame Christians for your own choice of keeping yourself separated from God....like you expect God or Christians to knock down that wall you have built. It's not possible, God gives you the freedom to set up the mental block wall in your mind, to reject Him and to believe you escape justice in death. Hold onto your wall, and write your graffiti thesis on it. I'm trying to get you to see the truth and as long as you say there is no God you will always feel defensive......and the best defense is a strong offense....enter the highly offensive Richard Dawkins who says nothing new but is idolized for saying it a lot. Ok, even though your question is formatted so that no answer is acceptable, I will answer your questions and from the start I can tell you that as long as you say there is no God, you MUST reject every answer. Christians: if you never were taught about God as a child, or as an adult even. If you never read the bible, or knew even that it existed, if you never went to a church service and was subjected to a sermon, or never read any theology, what do you see, or feel, or experience in the everyday world that makes you think there is a Personal and Loving God? Make you think that the creator of the Known Universe not only knows you exist, but loves you? What do you see and feel? That, say, I an atheist cannot? Like when I feel love or am at peace with the world and my station in it? When I am in awe at the wonder and beauty of the natural world? After all: your God would surely provide you with some type of "feeling" or "sense" or even "proof" of his existence. And certainly not rely only on his followers having to only get their feel for Him from reading. What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts? Your first question is a hypothetical where you are pretty much asking Christians to imagine themselves to be void of any social contact which may have ever said the word "God". I guess you are asking Christians to imagine they were adopted by wolves or chimpanzees, raised into adulthood, and then somehow assimilated into modern society where they heard about God. The fact remains that we have an innate awareness of God because we are more than animals, we are made in the image of God. Even an atheist who denies God is God knows exactly who is being denied, God is being denied. You have to make a willful choice to say "there is no God", and you know who you are rejecting when you make that choice because it is the very essence of your being made in God's image which you are denying. God created you to know Him (an understatement of His purpose for you). Deny His existence all you want, you can never make Him go away. Saying "there is no God" until you are blue in the face won't get rid of Him. You are trying to deny the essence of your being by denying that you are made in the image of God. Each individual makes that choice no matter what they hear or do not hear from others around them. God gives you the freedom to make the wrong choice, He will not force you to love Him, He will not force you to be thankful to Him, He will not force you to trust Him. He gives you the freedom to reject Him because He loves you. If you return to Him, you will be His. If you will not return to Him, you never were His even though He loved you as if you were His. Some of us have realized that He loves us and we have returned to Him. You have not realized that He loves you, you have decided He does not love you, you have rejected Him and His love. That is your choice. You have excluded all possibility of believing He loves you be saying "there is no God". That is your choice and there is no answer that can change your mind if you will not believe God is God. Your next question, with many rhetorical points summed up as "you have no proof, you can't prove God is God" You ask what a Christian can see or feel that you as an atheist cannot feel? That's very simple, friend. We can see and feel the things you exclude by saying there is no God. We see His glory revealed in Creation, and we feel THANKFULNESS to Him for creating us. YOU CANNOT FEEL THANKFULNESS TO GOD BECAUSE YOU ARE THANKLESS TOWARD HIM IN DENYING HE IS GOD. Oh sure, you can feel thankful for nature, you can feel wonder and joy in seeing the beauty of nature.....but the thing you cannot feel is thankful for being actively loved without any limitations of time or space. Yes you can enjoy being loved by people, but their love will be limited by time in their death so their love comes with pain. There is no pain or sorrow in the love God gives. He took our pain and sorrow on Himself and paid the price in death for the cause of pain and sorrow which is sin. All of the feelings you claim to have equal to the feelings Christians have will forever fall short as you deny knowing God's love. That is your choice my friend. You don't know what you are missing, you are fooling yourself to believe you know the highest form of love or joy. You cannot know those things when you reject God's love as you are doing. You'll spend your whole life making excuses and trying to blame God for your own choice of rejecting Him, and you can never admit to missing out on anything, you'll forever have to say you are as good as God and as good as Christians.......correct in saying you are as good as Christians because we have all sinned against God and all have gone bad and are corrupt by sin but completely willfully blind to the fact that you are NOT as good as God, willfully blind to the fact that your joy, your wonder, your love is nothing compared to His because yours is rife with the corruption of sin. By your own choice, you cannot see the glory of God and you cannot feel His love, you cannot feel thankful toward Him. Christians can. We have proof. You can't have it because you deny it. You lose. Sorry. For your last question, "What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts?" Simple, friend. It's FAITH. You can't have it because you deny God is God. Faith comes from God, it is ingrained in the essence of your being, but you reject it willfully by your own choice, and saying you can make no other choice but to deny God is a lie. You say "NO GOD" so you can't have faith. Sorry, you lose that way by your own choice. Ok, even though your question is formatted so that no answer is acceptable, I will answer your questions and from the start I can tell you that as long as you say there is no God, you MUST reject every answer. Christians: if you never were taught about God as a child, or as an adult even. If you never read the bible, or knew even that it existed, if you never went to a church service and was subjected to a sermon, or never read any theology, what do you see, or feel, or experience in the everyday world that makes you think there is a Personal and Loving God? Make you think that the creator of the Known Universe not only knows you exist, but loves you? What do you see and feel? That, say, I an atheist cannot? Like when I feel love or am at peace with the world and my station in it? When I am in awe at the wonder and beauty of the natural world? After all: your God would surely provide you with some type of "feeling" or "sense" or even "proof" of his existence. And certainly not rely only on his followers having to only get their feel for Him from reading. What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts? Your first question is a hypothetical where you are pretty much asking Christians to imagine themselves to be void of any social contact which may have ever said the word "God". I guess you are asking Christians to imagine they were adopted by wolves or chimpanzees, raised into adulthood, and then somehow assimilated into modern society where they heard about God. The fact remains that we have an innate awareness of God because we are more than animals, we are made in the image of God. Even an atheist who denies God is God knows exactly who is being denied, God is being denied. You have to make a willful choice to say "there is no God", and you know who you are rejecting when you make that choice because it is the very essence of your being made in God's image which you are denying. God created you to know Him (an understatement of His purpose for you). Deny His existence all you want, you can never make Him go away. Saying "there is no God" until you are blue in the face won't get rid of Him. You are trying to deny the essence of your being by denying that you are made in the image of God. Each individual makes that choice no matter what they hear or do not hear from others around them. God gives you the freedom to make the wrong choice, He will not force you to love Him, He will not force you to be thankful to Him, He will not force you to trust Him. He gives you the freedom to reject Him because He loves you. If you return to Him, you will be His. If you will not return to Him, you never were His even though He loved you as if you were His. Some of us have realized that He loves us and we have returned to Him. You have not realized that He loves you, you have decided He does not love you, you have rejected Him and His love. That is your choice. You have excluded all possibility of believing He loves you be saying "there is no God". That is your choice and there is no answer that can change your mind if you will not believe God is God. Your next question, with many rhetorical points summed up as "you have no proof, you can't prove God is God" You ask what a Christian can see or feel that you as an atheist cannot feel? That's very simple, friend. We can see and feel the things you exclude by saying there is no God. We see His glory revealed in Creation, and we feel THANKFULNESS to Him for creating us. YOU CANNOT FEEL THANKFULNESS TO GOD BECAUSE YOU ARE THANKLESS TOWARD HIM IN DENYING HE IS GOD. Oh sure, you can feel thankful for nature, you can feel wonder and joy in seeing the beauty of nature.....but the thing you cannot feel is thankful for being actively loved without any limitations of time or space. Yes you can enjoy being loved by people, but their love will be limited by time in their death so their love comes with pain. There is no pain or sorrow in the love God gives. He took our pain and sorrow on Himself and paid the price in death for the cause of pain and sorrow which is sin. All of the feelings you claim to have equal to the feelings Christians have will forever fall short as you deny knowing God's love. That is your choice my friend. You don't know what you are missing, you are fooling yourself to believe you know the highest form of love or joy. You cannot know those things when you reject God's love as you are doing. You'll spend your whole life making excuses and trying to blame God for your own choice of rejecting Him, and you can never admit to missing out on anything, you'll forever have to say you are as good as God and as good as Christians.......correct in saying you are as good as Christians because we have all sinned against God and all have gone bad and are corrupt by sin but completely willfully blind to the fact that you are NOT as good as God, willfully blind to the fact that your joy, your wonder, your love is nothing compared to His because yours is rife with the corruption of sin. By your own choice, you cannot see the glory of God and you cannot feel His love, you cannot feel thankful toward Him. Christians can. We have proof. You can't have it because you deny it. You lose. Sorry. For your last question, "What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts?" Simple, friend. It's FAITH. You can't have it because you deny God is God. Faith comes from God, it is ingrained in the essence of your being, but you reject it willfully by your own choice, and saying you can make no other choice but to deny God is a lie. You say "NO GOD" so you can't have faith. Sorry, you lose that way by your own choice. You start with the assumption that evolution is true and there is no God. Wrong. Again. Read my OP. Show me where I said there is no god. I simply asked you very politely to convey to us examples of your god experience. This is not the first survey I have done on this for my Dissertation, sir. I have been very careful to frame my question in a civil and objective manner. And you are the only one who denies this. Why? Can it be that it unnerves you when questions are asked that cause you to question the validity of your beliefs? very careful to frame your question in a civil and objective manner? The following quote from your theme here is neither civil or objective. "What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts?" There is no answer that can be given which you will accept as a proof or logical evidence of God. You make this clear in the way you word the question, no matter what anybody says you will say "that's just your own thought, there is no way to be certain it's real". You exclude yourself from knowing God, you exclude yourself from knowing His love, and your whole approach is an insult to Christians. It's a shame you can actually make a career out of doing this, like Dawkins did......but you see no shame in what you are doing. It's a shame people actually buy it. You haven't unnerved me in the least, nor caused me to question the validity of the things I know to be true. You will be punching Christians in the head long before you can admit that knowing Jesus Christ is the truth is unshakable. I say I know God loves me, you say I'm either deluded or lying, it's just an insult, it's not civil at all, you are not being objective. You are making God subjective to your own denial. You exclude yourself from the answer to your own questions by starting from the position of "I cannot know God, I cannot feel His love, I cannot sense His presence." . 1
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What I ALWAYS do is look at the facts. I have to look no further than my own extended family. My family has grown from one Christian couple who raised their children with a faith in God, to well over 150 exteneded family members counting brothers, sisters, wives, husbands, nieces, nephews, grand children, etc, etc. Of all these family members, guess how many have lived together before marriage? NONE! Guess how many pregnancies before marriage? Maybe three and guess what? They were already in love, got married and are living wonderful lives with their children. Guess how many got divorced? Two! This is out of approximately 50 marriages. This is not a theory, this is a fact I see playing out in many Christian families, not just my own. Yes I realize that approx. 83% of Americans identify as being Christian. I also realize that far fewer take their faith seriously, nor could care less what the Bible teaches as to how we should live our lives. So spare me your data on Christian divorces etc. Those numbers do not differentiate between Christians who actually take their faith seriously, and those who could not care less. So you tell me how those numbers compare to a world that is fixated on separating our Christian heritage from our public lives. There is no comparison to families who actually take their christian faith seriously rather than just calling themselves Christian or atheist. So you see, I know that faith in God produces more fulfilling lives with far less problems. I know that rejection of God produces far more unwed pregnancies, far more divorce, far more more hardships in life. Without a moral foundtion to shape one's choices in life, our kids are force fed what Hollywood dishes out, or what ever direction this selfish culture moves in regardless the harm shown. Our culture today basically teaches that one night hookups are fine, and don't worry that the idiot will never be a father to your child should you get pregnant. Just sign up for welfare and the tax payers will take care of you. Case workers make lousy fathers as we are seeing with the many problems with our youth today. So you see, I see results from the Christian faith, and I would be seeing those same results if I had never heard of Christ during my upbringing. It would probably be too late to change whatever worldly direction I had been programmed to follow by the Left wing media. You see, either God, or parents, or our media will shape our children's minds. The choice you make will dictate the quality of your life. I also realize that Slapshot is the biggest bigot on this site, constantly ridiculing Christians while usually saying little against Islam. Agaain!!! Another Christian who cannot answer a simple question. I am disappointed in your guys. All you did was make the claim that you believe in god and he is real and then you got hostile and insulted me. All I asked was what type of feeling you have of him? What sort of sense? How do you know he is real and loves you and why would you know this if you had never read the bible or been taught it as a child? Surely an all powerful and loving god would provide his followers with a sense of him that us atheists cannot know? So what is it? You guys are so far simply fortifying my belief that the vast majority of you only believe in god because you were taught to. And you WANT there to be a god. Yet....you cannot truthfully claim he does any tangible works in your life. How sad. SS 1
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It is you who lacks the intelligence to grasp the answer I gave. Let me give you the answer really really clearly so even a bigot might understand. I told you that my beliefs are based on the facts and fruits and results of Christian families versus those who could not care less what the Bible says. This is how I know that the lifestyles derived from the Christian faith produces real tangible results just as the Bible says it will for those who call Christ their lord. It's not only that the philosophy of God's word is so true, but it is also an inner peace that comes with faith. That inner peace and faith works wonders when dealing with life decisions time and time again. If we base our life choices on human nature that dictates if it feels good do it, then we will all end up with far more problems in life. But when we have faith in God, it is no longer human nature driving our decisions, but rather a Godly nature shaping our decisons. It reduces the stress others live with each day. Christians understand that there will always be a light at the end of the tunnel. We do not live in fear of climate change, or getting pregnant, or of drunk driving, or of what happens when taking hard drugs, etc. etc. because we know that in the end, if we follow God's word, these things have no hold on our lives. Are Christians perfect and never tempted by the worldly things. Of course Christians are not perfect and they do fail at times, and when they do, they see the results and learn from those immoral choices. But I believe Christians make immoral choices far fewer times than non Christians. You ask how do we know he is real and loves us, even if we were never taught the Christian faith in our childhood? My answer is this. We all possess a brain and are suppose to use it. When we see our friends dying from drug overdoses, or dying in drunk driving accidents, or dropping out of school from getting pregnant with some loser who refuses to support his child, etc. intelligent people use their brains and take notice. When we see Christians refusing to go to those drug or alcohol parties, or abstaining from teen sex, it is easy to see the results of living moral lives based on God's word. We know God loves us by giving us simple common sense moral guidelines to live our lives. If we choose to ignore his words of wisdom, then we learn very quickly the truth of his words of warnings. It's like loving parent warning their children of the dangers in life. Those warnings are done out of love. Most all of the teens in my extended families understood the results of living the, if it feels good do it lifestyle, because they saw what happens to other teens who lived the so called good life. They refrained from those self love lifestyles and are reapng the rewards of wonderful lives with loving spouses and children being raised by both parents. We can see with our eyes the results of living the Christian lifestyle versus the world's lifestlyes. If we are honest and choose to not live by the creed if it feels good do it, our lives will be far less stressful and dysfunctional. The problem is that man can not live a moral lifestyle without faith in God. God helps the Christian live moral lifestlyles (though not perfect). We are witnessing what becomes of mankind when he separates God from our lives..... no restriction abortions, swollen welfare roles filled with unwed mothers, millions of fatherless children, etc. etc. It is everyone's choice which path they follow, and they have no excuses when ignoring al the evidence before them. Look at your own words........"Surely an all powerful and loving god would provide his followers with a sense of him that us atheists cannot know? So what is it?? You answered your own question. A person who believes God is there can have a sense of knowing His love. As an atheist, you cannot know God's love. Then you'll say to me that I don't know. Friend, I know. Your assertion of not knowing only means that you don't know. I know what I know, and I know you do not know because you say you do not know. You cannot have a sense of God's love when you say there is no God. Now you are left with trying to convince yourself and the world that somebody who says they know God's love is delusional. Go for it. You cannot know God's love as an atheist. I know God loves me. What are you going to do? Say "God does not love you because there is no God" until you are blue in the face? You'll never make God go away, and the only person you can be sure will never sense His love is yourself as long as you say there is no God. Sad for you my friend. You cannot know God's love as an atheist. You lose. Sorry, just telling you the truth. You're on the losing side when you argue against God. Losing it all, friend, losing your soul. Ok, even though your question is formatted so that no answer is acceptable, I will answer your questions and from the start I can tell you that as long as you say there is no God, you MUST reject every answer. Christians: if you never were taught about God as a child, or as an adult even. If you never read the bible, or knew even that it existed, if you never went to a church service and was subjected to a sermon, or never read any theology, what do you see, or feel, or experience in the everyday world that makes you think there is a Personal and Loving God? Make you think that the creator of the Known Universe not only knows you exist, but loves you? What do you see and feel? That, say, I an atheist cannot? Like when I feel love or am at peace with the world and my station in it? When I am in awe at the wonder and beauty of the natural world? After all: your God would surely provide you with some type of "feeling" or "sense" or even "proof" of his existence. And certainly not rely only on his followers having to only get their feel for Him from reading. What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts? Your first question is a hypothetical where you are pretty much asking Christians to imagine themselves to be void of any social contact which may have ever said the word "God". I guess you are asking Christians to imagine they were adopted by wolves or chimpanzees, raised into adulthood, and then somehow assimilated into modern society where they heard about God. The fact remains that we have an innate awareness of God because we are more than animals, we are made in the image of God. Even an atheist who denies God is God knows exactly who is being denied, God is being denied. You have to make a willful choice to say "there is no God", and you know who you are rejecting when you make that choice because it is the very essence of your being made in God's image which you are denying. God created you to know Him (an understatement of His purpose for you). Deny His existence all you want, you can never make Him go away. Saying "there is no God" until you are blue in the face won't get rid of Him. You are trying to deny the essence of your being by denying that you are made in the image of God. Each individual makes that choice no matter what they hear or do not hear from others around them. God gives you the freedom to make the wrong choice, He will not force you to love Him, He will not force you to be thankful to Him, He will not force you to trust Him. He gives you the freedom to reject Him because He loves you. If you return to Him, you will be His. If you will not return to Him, you never were His even though He loved you as if you were His. Some of us have realized that He loves us and we have returned to Him. You have not realized that He loves you, you have decided He does not love you, you have rejected Him and His love. That is your choice. You have excluded all possibility of believing He loves you be saying "there is no God". That is your choice and there is no answer that can change your mind if you will not believe God is God. Your next question, with many rhetorical points summed up as "you have no proof, you can't prove God is God" You ask what a Christian can see or feel that you as an atheist cannot feel? That's very simple, friend. We can see and feel the things you exclude by saying there is no God. We see His glory revealed in Creation, and we feel THANKFULNESS to Him for creating us. YOU CANNOT FEEL THANKFULNESS TO GOD BECAUSE YOU ARE THANKLESS TOWARD HIM IN DENYING HE IS GOD. Oh sure, you can feel thankful for nature, you can feel wonder and joy in seeing the beauty of nature.....but the thing you cannot feel is thankful for being actively loved without any limitations of time or space. Yes you can enjoy being loved by people, but their love will be limited by time in their death so their love comes with pain. There is no pain or sorrow in the love God gives. He took our pain and sorrow on Himself and paid the price in death for the cause of pain and sorrow which is sin. All of the feelings you claim to have equal to the feelings Christians have will forever fall short as you deny knowing God's love. That is your choice my friend. You don't know what you are missing, you are fooling yourself to believe you know the highest form of love or joy. You cannot know those things when you reject God's love as you are doing. You'll spend your whole life making excuses and trying to blame God for your own choice of rejecting Him, and you can never admit to missing out on anything, you'll forever have to say you are as good as God and as good as Christians.......correct in saying you are as good as Christians because we have all sinned against God and all have gone bad and are corrupt by sin but completely willfully blind to the fact that you are NOT as good as God, willfully blind to the fact that your joy, your wonder, your love is nothing compared to His because yours is rife with the corruption of sin. By your own choice, you cannot see the glory of God and you cannot feel His love, you cannot feel thankful toward Him. Christians can. We have proof. You can't have it because you deny it. You lose. Sorry. For your last question, "What do you experience in our world that TELLS you your God exists and loves you? And how is this feeling, this experience, if you indeed even have it, certain to be real and a product of your god, and not simply your own thoughts?" Simple, friend. It's FAITH. You can't have it because you deny God is God. Faith comes from God, it is ingrained in the essence of your being, but you reject it willfully by your own choice, and saying you can make no other choice but to deny God is a lie. You say "NO GOD" so you can't have faith. Sorry, you lose that way by your own choice. More: You should "feel God" His Spirit bears witness, and you can't know the Son unless you receive through a revelation to the eyes of your understanding. You can never "learn God" God can't be learned nor taught. God can only be revealed. No argument can prove Him, only experiencing God by revelation and receiving the Holy Spirit. We can argue to open your mind to seek, but we can't give you understanding. That's a language spoken in the Spirit. By the Spirit to your Spirit. And the Revelation to your spirit is the proof. If you ask, He will give. So count the cost, if your willing to buy Truth with everything you have and everything you are, then let Him know and He will answer and give you what you can't get from any vendor or any man, or any other way but through Him. We are gold refined by fire. Refined and sharpened in the Hand of God. His hand to yours. No middle man but Jesus, He is the door. Jesus is the Right Hand of God that can save. We deserve nothing from His Hand, But He will forgive your unbelief and your words against Him, just like He did for Paul in the Bible. Then you can write about your own experience of God. I may question what I receive as a word of revelation sometimes and wait, for additional understanding, but I never questioned the confirmation of revelation I recieved of Him, thats not easily dismissed, or forgotton. God helps our faith, by confirming Himself through the eyes of our understanding. And understanding isn't a view or an opinion, it's understanding. Understanding is how things are known, not just what things are known. You can debate a Doctrine that's a view, and an opinion. This precept is scriptural,, so my experience is confirmed as eflects what is written in the Word. Jesus said to His disciples "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father has revealed it to you. So I experienced Him, not dead religion, nor religion of a men, nor of fortitude of mind or will, nor by memorization." You guess that there is no God, but that's not convinced, it's a mental acceptance of data. Its a passive acceptance of facts but not based on being convinced. I know, and I'm not guessing. I didn't recieve my faith by the beliefs and teachings of men, I recieved understanding by experiencing the Spirit of God, and with revelation in my understanding, I couldn't dismiss understanding even in times silence. it's a memory of senses, in understanding, and in experience. Once you know Him He is not easily dismissed. And that doesn't come through your eyes. Its not surprising that God the Creator made what we see and hear and even what we memorize less momorable than details we can remember trough, taste, smell, and understanding over what can be touched and seen. What you see and feel are the least memorable of all the senses. I didn't receive revelation of God through man. I didn't conclude my beliefs by decieving myself, or worrking myself up like a boxer before a fight. I didn't receive a false hope like some do in a mental decission. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He can appear to you, and you can believe for moments and you may think if He did then I'd believe. But, what last stronger in your memory, something you can see, or something you understand? Do you remember the smell of your grandmother's kitchen, or do you remember the color of the kitchen walls? Out of sight, out of mind. God dwells in our understanding not our vision. So He is always before our eyes! You can dismiss easily something you saw, but you can't easily dismissed what you see in understanding. Seek Him and get understanding then you will know Him, and yo can be convinced through understanding Thank you to all of you who provided my debate with your sincere and thoughtful replies. I appreciate your time. Though I would be remiss if I closed here by admitting that I founnd none of your testimonies even mildly compelling evidence for the existence of your god. So I will now spend the next couple weeks further digesting some of these posts, along with those I gleaned from three other online open debates I conducted as some source material for the sub-topic of "belief in the supernatural" for my Dissertation on Evolutionary Psychology. If I indeed deem to use any of your posts or excerpts from them in my Dissertation--which will not be in its final draft for another three or four months or so--I will be sure to PM you with a request for your permission to do so. Thanks again! |
