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Really, you feel an intense fear and great anxiety when thinking about that? Being terrified isn't thinking of something as scary. Being terrified means you feel as if you are at gun point (intensely afraid with great anxiety).
Honestly not much of anything scares me that much.
But for this debate I could be that terrified of something, even if it is only in my head. Even if I don't really believe it exists.
That's my only point.
Possibilities, not realities.
Everyone is only capable of being afraid of possibilities. Once possibilities are realized the moment is over, and you aren't afraid in that sense any longer. If one is still afraid, they are still only fearing further possibilities.
Heights, spiders, clowns, it doesn't matter.
Pain(and the various types of pain, sadness etc) and the unknown are the only two things anyone is ever afraid of when all human psychology is stripped away.
Once the worst is realized, it's not fear but something else.
As that is the case, all fear is only in our head, even the kind where you feel like someone is holding a gun to your head.
Since that is the case, since it only lives by its nature, in our head,
then anything that can be imagined must by its nature be capable of invoking terror.
Whether it is real, and even whether one believes it is real has 0 bearing on whether or not that thing can cause terror.
Way more than I felt like explaining in this debate, but good question.
The first good argument that an atheist can be terrified by demonic possession. An atheist can not logically be terrified by demonic possession, but can be illogically due to a phobia. Being terrified doesn't have to have a rational causation. I'm irrationally and deathly afraid of heights; even walking down stairs without banisters makes me a 5 (on a scale of 1-10) on being afraid of falling down to my peril. There is no reason for me to be terrified of heights (I usually have no contact with them) and nothing bad has ever happened to me due to heights. In recap, atheists can be illogically terrified by demonic possession; my hat is off to you my dear sir.
(If anyone is actually wondering, I was really on the no side until I started explaining Psychology to someone which made me realize phobias gives the win to the yes side. As for continuing to argue for the no side, the yes side seems to have a lot of bad arguments.)
Being terrified does not necessarily have anything to do with your spiritual beliefs. A person might be terrified for any number of reasons such as fear for their life or limb. Some people are terrified by not knowing what might happen in a dangerous situation. Some people are terrified by the prospect of great pain such as burning to death or torture. Having a lack of belief or understanding in something does not excuse you from its effect.
While it is true that you don't need to know what causes something in order to be afraid of it, that is irrelevant here. Atheists don't believe that demonic possession happens. In other words, their is no demonic possession to them so saying that they can fear the cause of it, doesn't make sense.
Your example has this same faulty logic; people don't start dropping dead in the streets therefore it doesn't matter what would cause it. Being afraid of something has to have a probability of it happening. (Though it is probable to happen in certain circumstances, that doesn't mean there has to be a fear of it happening in every situation available) Why would an atheist be afraid of something if he or she doesn't believe it will happen? Are you afraid of gravity ceasing to exist and then floating off into space? I don't think so.
It's a hypothetical situation. And you can tell me with certainty that if people did start dropping dead that you wouldn't be the least bit scared? What kind of world do you live in? I'm not trying to be complicated or specific. I'm trying to be brunt.
The effects of demonic possession, if seen, would probably terrify anybody. Psychotic people are, as most people know, terrifying. Sure, we wouldn't know the cause, no. But the effects can terrify us, so obviously demonic possession can terrify atheists. As well as anyone.
I'm not saying they do fear the cause, no. But they can fear the effects fully. Saying otherwise is idiocy.
When I said, "(Though it is probable to happen in certain circumstances, that doesn't mean there has to be a fear of it happening in every situation available)," I meant that there is always the possibility of people dropping dead in the streets, albeit a slim one, but that doesn't mean one has to be afraid. For example, there is a small probability of a chemical attack, but that doesn't mean I have to be afraid of people dropping dead from chemical warfare in the streets. If it did happen, I would be scared, but it isn't happening and the probability of it occurring is small.
We do know the causes of "psychotic" people; have you ever heard of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders? Many studies have been done, are being done, and will be done on the reasons people become "psychotic". Demonic possession has NEVER EVER been cited as a valid reason by those in the field of Psychology that a "psychotic" person is "psychotic". So being afraid of a "psychotic" person does not mean one is afraid of demonic possession; one being afraid of a "psychotic" person is in fact afraid of severe mental problems. If saying anything is idiocy, it would be saying that we live in a world of magic, dragons, and witches where demons possess the mentally ill and Santa really does bring gifts to the good children.
And I wasn't implying that we don't know why people are psychotic, but anyone who didn't think a demonically possessed person was possessed would probably think they were psychotic.
They are hypothetical situations, but you are using them to support your point. To knock down that point, I am also taking down your examples.
Where's your proof that some people classified as psychotic are demonically possessed? If you can show me that, then I'll agree with you. Otherwise, this hypothetical situation doesn't matter because it doesn't happen.
N-no the notion that people that are psychotic are actually demonically possessed is ridiculous. This whole debate seems entirely hypothetical to me, as demonic possession has never been proven, so why are you mocking me for bringing in hypothetical situations when the debate is clearly about hypothetical situations?
The point I'm trying to make here is if someone were to be demonically possessed and showed the vulgar signs of it like demonic possession is described, a witness could definitely be terrified by that demonic possession.
But then again, demonic possession is hypothetical.
Now if this debate were about fear of the concept of demonic possession, things might be different.
The example wasn't even meant to include anything about demonic possession or satan or anything like that. It was just an example of something that could arouse fear. If it happened.
But if they do not believe in spirits or the demonic, they would have no reason to fear. If they are an atheist, they have most likely made a conscious decision that such ideas as demons are ludicrous - why would they fear something such as that?
I can easily understand why they would fear, for instance, a book or film about a world-wide disaster or plague - though are things which can happen. Same with slashers - Eddie Gein was famous for cutting up his victims and wearing them. Those things, to the atheist's mind, are real. Why would they fear something which they consider imaginary?
I consider myself an atheist and I was as thrilled and scared wathcing the Exorcist as any one.
Even though I dont believe in the actual existance of Demons I still think the the Demonic arctype (found in most religions, myths and forgotten lores) has real value for our psyche. It is a very valid symbol and probably one of the cornerstones of the way our mind works and organizes itself. Our sensory system works first and formost in discerning outside influences, and for a species like ourselves, that has mastered symbolism, we are bound to use symbols to qualify these outside influences.
Even tough I criticize organized religions and its followers , I have nothing against religious literature, taken as such - It can give good clues as to how our mind has evolved since the start of civilisation.
Besides: I really think crazy people in their histeria are scary - so it is enough for me to see somone who believe he is possesed, to be scared of him myself
Even more scary is when such a large part of the world belives in fairy tales and is willing to go to war over them.
And even more scary is when the country that considers itself a pinnicle of democracy is willing to vote (twice) for an idiot that went to war because god told him so, among other things.
The question is not, 'Are you afraid of people who are possessed?', nor is it 'Do demonic-horror films cause fear to the atheist?'. Rather, whilst those elements are to be incorporated into debates, the actual title obviates your debate.
This debate is not about, for one thing, the symbolism behind the demonic. This debate is not about religion. This debate is not about whether or not there is any validity in the claim that demons exist. This debate is not about the hysteria surrounding the occult. This debate is not about politics.
It is simply this, "Can an atheist be terrified by demonic possession?".
I am supporting your post because I thought that, even though it didn't directly answer my question of debate, it did raise intriguing points.
So I am allowed to debate with either "yes" or "no" ?
Ill go with Yes.
Usually what people find scary are things that are strange or otherworldly, or somehow seem to have unfathomable powers - hence all the connections with myths and religion.
because, in their mind, it does exist. It is the existance of these entities outside our minds that atheists dont find convincing.
Atheists are as aware as anyone that terrifying people exist, serial murderers, rapists, psychopats, and that some of them act in a way that fits in so many ways well with old descriptions of demonic possession - and often these psychopats are themselves consumed by the old myths, and sometimes act them out. And to me it doesnt matter if when a person does an evil deed, weather he was really under a demonic possesion, or just consumed by these cultural artifacts - Both are equally scary. (and as a sidepoint I think it is totally unfair that video games get so much blame for influencing mass or serial killers, when religious, and sometimes philosophical literature are by far more often the obsessions of these people)
Well, anyone can be terrified of anything. It seems the main arguments in this debate revolve around the definition of the word atheism, which is roughly defined as the lack of belief in dieties. This in no way covers the supernatural or abnormal (atheists believing in aliens or ghosts), so anyone claiming beliefs hinder the possibility of demonic processes is mistaken. It's also a mistake to assume that "demonic" requires a religious connotation. Demons have always exited in religious, mythical, etc.. systems as external entities that are not to be trifled with (it's been only newer religions that adopted dark entities solely as their own [christianity]). Demonic possession could be easily argued as paranormal (ghostly unfinished business, extraterrestrial intervention, magik/energy work, hypnosis) phenomena as far removed from religion as I am. Furthermore, breaking our world down past the crystallised matter, we arrive at energy strings as the building blocks of our world. It would take no stretch of the imagination to see the possibility of negative energy being drawn to weak sources of positive energy, it needn't take the form of hollywood teeth and red eyed creatures hiding under your bed.
p.s. I don't necessarily subscribe to any of the beliefs I've outlined (aliens etc..)
Yes, but only in scary movies. In real life one doesn't fear what one knows can't exist. Unless the "possessed" person is acting violently, then the fear would be directed towards that.
Ooh, the flailing limbs of a mentally ill individual on the hard ground while everyone stares with some guy restraining her, smacking a cold hard book on the individual's head. Who wouldn't be scared?
No, they are Atheist, since they don't believe in God or a Deity, but they aren't 100% certain. No different from a Christan that believes in God, but has doubt in his existence, would still be a Christan.
The fundamental aspect of atheism is a disbelief in God. Agnosticism is a belief that God may exist, but that they are uncertain. Anybody who doubts either way would be an agnostic.
When someone isn't one hundred percent sure of the existence of God, he or she is Agnostic. A Christian who has doubts would be considered philosophically to be Agnostic, but in practice may still be a Christian because he or she might still be obeying and practice the Christian religion. However, Atheists have no dogma, only the view that there is no God; the same goes for Agnostics in regard to having no dogma. So even if a person says they are Atheist, but believes there could be a God, that doesn't mean the person is really an Atheist. Just like me calling my car a "rocket ship" doesn't make it a "rocket ship". It is still a car.
No, because if there is no belief in demonic possession, then there is no reason to have a fear of it. Are people afraid of the cessation of gravity? No, because there is no belief in that happening.
Monsters are a great example. Little children are afraid of monsters because they believe in them while adults are not because they don't believe in monsters.
To say that an atheist is terrified by demonic possession would in fact suggest that the person is really not an atheist after all since he or she would have to believe in demons which is a belief in some type of powerful beings in the afterlife. Of course, atheists don't believe in powerful, supernatural beings. If a catholic said that they don't believe God exists, is that person still a catholic?
No, that person is not a Catholic if they do not believe in the very foundation of Catholicism. Atheism is a disbelief in God, does that necessarily mean that they have a disbelief in ghosts?
An atheist cannot be terrified by the idea of demonic possession as they do not- by definition - believe in demons. Where-as a atheist can by all means be terrified whilst being demoniacally possessed or seeing a demonic possession as fear of the unknown is perfectly legit.
As an athiest I believe we could be terrified by demonic possession but only if such a thing existed, which it doesn't. So since it doesn't exist whats there to be scared off?
Not if one doesn't believe in demonic possession. Demonic possession has always been a secret of the church in its validity.
How many people have been apparently possessed by a demonic entity? Even if, that is a small percentage. Even those are not atheist, what is the percentage? Still very low.
Well, films have a strong poignancy to our preconceived notion of what is real. They bring stories to life into a matter where we can experience first hand what may happen to us if we were to experience a demonic possession. This was evident in the Exorcist because it sent shivers down people's spines into thinking absolute truth.
There is one main flaw in your thesis: They believe in the existence of heights, and of the aftermath of such a fall. They do not, however, believe in the existence of the supernatural or the aftermath of demonic possession.
How about Chucky? For some reason a tiny doll trying to kill people is a little freaky.
I know little dolls that try to kill people don't exist. In fact, any grown person could kick Chucky's ass even if he was real, just hold him up by the hair so he can't reach.
Still, kind of a scary thought if you imagine a little doll trying to kill you.
I haven't seen Chucky, but I'm pretty sure that I read that it has a foundation in Voodoo. Voodoo is sorcery, which is linked to the devil, which is linked to demonic possession. Thus, we are back at my original topic: Can an atheist be terrified by demonic possession.
Well terminator, I'm not sure what you are reaching for here. But you really are not on to anything. You can be afraid of stuff you don't believe in, you can not be afraid of stuff you do believe in. Anyone can be afraid of anything.
Christians are afraid of dying even though they don't think they really die and only pretend die then go to heaven. So I don't know what the point here is.
I guess I could start a debate that said "Can a theist be terrified of dying?"
Then argue if one is afraid they must not really believe,
then argue if they say they aren't afraid that they really are and should kill themselves to prove it.
But that would be silly.
Because for one I don't want anyone dying, but mostly because I know it's human instinct to be afraid of death. And I know it's human nature to be able to imagine things that don't exist, and to be afraid of those things.
How about clowns?
There's not a clown in my apartment to my knowledge, but they still scare me.
Does that example work?
there's no link to the devil there I don't think. Of course though clowns do exist.
So you want something that does not exist, that one can be afraid of anyway?
Okay, I'm afraid of 12 headed fire breathing spiders.
Happy?
They don't exist, they have no relation to the devil or voodoo, yet the thought terrifies me.
The point is that I have made a heated debate with many participants, something that rarely happens around here.
You are afraid of clowns? How about 'IT'?
I'm sure that, if you search deep enough, you can find relationships between anything and religion. I've known people who'll change the topic from left-handedness to religion.
