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If God were to exist, would it be moral to worship him?
According to the Bible, God has done some pretty evil things that caused immense suffering, quite often out of spite. He also tends to favour not those that are actually good but rather those that are loyal to him.
I understand a lot of us would worship him out of fear of being sent to hell but would it be a moral act? Maybe to choose hell would be the principaled decision rather than support an evil being.
Of course, however, I feel God wants us to believe, have faith, in it (God) more-so than to worship it (God).
The worship aspects come into the fruit of faith, in that, technically, to worship means to have faith in it, therefore, God wants us to worship (believe) in it.
Everything else; the pain, suffering, rape, murder, abortion, that God allows is not up to us, it's up to it. And so, simply because God allows horrible things to happen in this world, does not mean God intended, nor, enjoys seeing these horrible things happen.
Yes. He came to earth, suffered, died on the cross for our sins, and rose from the dead. I do not understand everything, but I understand that. If God is so evil, why go to all of that trouble?
As usual you are replying to something that was never told in the first place. I just said that you belief is an obvious nonsense, I haven't said, do not belief to that.
No I did not. I have said that your belief is bullshit, not that you shouldn't follow it... I don't really care what you believe in. I just find it weird.
Saying that someone's belief is bullshit is implying that they should not have that belief. If I support your right to freedom of belief, you owe me the same respect.
Thank you. I respect you as well. I am not asking you to respect my belief because the right to freely criticize ideas is a fundamental human right. :)
Right because for thousands of years people have been believing in children having magical powers flying around on broomsticks playing football meets lacrosse in the air, right? WRONG.
Now, I'm not implying that simply because people believe in something it must be true, not at all.
However, I am implying that mankind is a curious species as has been since the moment our first species walked this earth. And so, since curiosity is within our very DNA, it is natural that millions and billions of people have had faith in God, even our earliest ancestors probably believed in X, Y, Z God(s), even before the Mayans. Look at the Sumerians, they believe in something. Though they weren't the "first" civilization to conquer and roam about, they still believed in something.
Point being, our species has had faith in X, Y, Z God(s) since the beginning of our time and this qualifies for evidence that something is there to believe in the first place. So yes, try going against and refuting billions of people whom have believed and had have faith in God, you can try and will not succeed in doing much of anything other than bitching about people believing.
So Nox, have fun with that and will not accomplish anything. Do you understand?
There are about 12000 different gods with different background stories and different mythology, each one denies the existence of all the others. In other words obvious bullshit.
Each one believes in their God, which you consider them denying.
Sure, most deny other Gods, I'll give you that.
However, have you considered that these 12,000 Gods are actually one in the same? Or at least of the same? And that because of different backgrounds and stories and mythologies and various languages and cultures, there is the illusion of separation. In other words, obvious reality.
I believe whomever believes in X, Y, Z God (granted these Gods are of "goodness" and have "moral", so to speak) believe, in general, the same deity, the same God, the same reality; the bigger picture.
So people were killing each other for milenia for different gods were actually killing each other for the same one, which obviously does not give a shit about them ... awesome explanation thank you :D
Why did God invent the idea of sin in the first place?
Why couldn't he just forgive our sins, rather than coming to earth and getting himself killed?
Also just looking at God in the Old testament shows how evil the Judeo-Christian God is; he kills people left, right and centre. In 2 kings 2:23-24 he gets two bears to maul 42 boys, for the crime of mocking Elisha, is that the sign of a good God?
God also killed people whom it (God) deemed evil and done so in an nondiscriminatory way.
Perhaps the killing of the children had an underlining reason and in Gods eyes and mind it was beneficial to save the righteous in the long run, who really knows?
This response is really just a cop out, it can be applied to anything which goes against any God.
Why did God call kill 42 kids with a bear?
God works in mysterious ways.
Why did God allow 6 million jews die in the holocaust?
God works in mysterious ways.
Yet when one person gets shot in the head and survives, God is great. God works in mysterious ways is just a silly response which is used to dismiss anything which goes against the persons specific God.
God also killed people whom it (God) deemed evil and done so in an nondiscriminatory way.
And yet he didn't kill Hitler or Mao, but decided 42 boys who called a prophet baldy is worth killing...
Perhaps the killing of the children had an underlining reason and in Gods eyes and mind it was beneficial to save the righteous in the long run, who really knows?
Beneficial to save the righteous in the long run? All these boys did was call Elisha baldy...
You're trying to dispute the word mysterious? As if that is not of the best ways to describe God, in general? You perhaps call God "unfair", or "evil", when obviously it is neither. I call God mysterious and you claim It's a cop out. Do you see the difference?
God allows many things to happen, this is obvious right?
Why do you consider it (God) evil, when what God allows to happen is not done by itself.
You're using the bible to interpret "God murders" people, when in reality God has never murdered anybody; God has "killed" in a non-discriminatory way; meaning God kills those that it deems evil, and for the betterment of mankind.
So yes, God does work in mysterious ways.
I do not claim what I say to be truth, this is just my perception and opinion, of this particular situation, in general.
You're trying to make God out to be this deity that is evil because "it kills", X, Y, Z....within the bible.
I'm trying to make God out to be this deity that does what it does for a good reason, and not for any evil reason. What would be the point in God being evil if life is existent? If God was truly evil, mankind would have to deal with far greater (worse) happenings than we're already dealing with! Do you not understand!?
You're trying to dispute the word mysterious? As if that is not of the best ways to describe God, in general? You perhaps call God "unfair", or "evil", when obviously it is neither. I call God mysterious and you claim It's a cop out. Do you see the difference?
Saying God works in mysterious ways is a cop out. You seem to believe in a Good God, but how do you make this judgement may I ask?
The God is mysterious card gets pulled out whenever God does something which if anyone on this planet did would be considered unjustifiable and evil. If someone on the other hand survives getting shot in the head, God is great. It sets up an unfalsifiable position because anything good is accepted whist anything bad is dismissed.
God allows many things to happen, this is obvious right?
Why do you consider it (God) evil, when what God allows to happen is not done by itself.
I could answer this if I understood what you meant bywhat God allows to happen is not done by itself.
You're using the bible to interpret "God murders" people, when in reality God has never murdered anybody; God has "killed" in a non-discriminatory way; meaning God kills those that it deems evil, and for the betterment of mankind.
If he killed non discriminatory he would have killed Hitler and Mao. Reading the bible shows he apparently killed people for less.
You're trying to make God out to be this deity that is evil because "it kills", X, Y, Z....within the bible.
I'm trying to make God out to be this deity that does what it does for a good reason, and not for any evil reason.
I am also saying the reasons for killing these people as given in the bible would not be that of a good Gods.
What would be the point in God being evil if life is existent? If God was truly evil, mankind would have to deal with far greater (worse) happenings than we're already dealing with! Do you not understand!?
An evil God could have equally sufficient reasons to create life as a Good God.
If God was truly God mankind would have to deal with far less evil happenings than we deal with now. The argument can be flipped, do work against a good God as well as your argument can be used against a evil God.
Open your fucking mind!
There is a difference between having a closed mind and there being no evidence or good arguments presented for the position. If there was good arguments or evidence presented for the position I would accept it, the fact is there hasn't been. Your argument was originally God works in mysterious ways. This is not a convincing argument at all, it is just a way to sweep any arguments against your position under the carpet.
Can you give me an example of what it would take for you to believe God is evil ( you don't have to think it is true) in which I couldn't respond God works in mysterious ways?
If you can't than you have to agree that you set up an unfalsifiable position which is just a cop out.
If you don't want to respond to my points don't click dispute it is simple. You continuously swear and abuse people on here it is quite funny Tbh because it shows how weak you must find your own positions.
This is a debate site, if you can't handle people responding to your fallacious points why bother coming here?
Also you have called me a child, yet you are the one swearing and acting like a child. If you cannot respond to someone without effectively throwing a temper, wouldn't it be more grown up to leave the debate?
Abuse? Or so you're a victim now? When did this happen? Self-proclaimed victim, how convenient.
I'm not sure about where you are from but constantly swearing at someone constitutes verbal abuse over here.
I swear at those that deserve a good swearing. And you definitely deserve swearing at due to your offensive posts you make.
Is there any possible way I can disagree with what you say without being offensive? Every time you respond it is with swearing. No one else responds to what I put in the same way you feel the need to. Most people actually try and address the points I or anyone else for that matter puts across.
My position is stronger than ever. I do not feel weak at all in that department, trust me.
I'm only saying your position is weak because you never defend it. If someone responds to your argument, you never respond to their points.
I can handle whatever any person throws at me on this site.
It seems you can only do that if it involves telling people to fuck off, there is a couple of other people on here I have seen you not responding to their points and then tell them to fuck off.
Pfff, this site is a joke most of the time. I enjoy the real, intelligent conversations.
It could be better if people tried to actually debate, rather than resorting to verbal abuse and ignoring points made.
You do what you must and I will do what I must. If you can't handle a few cuss words, then you leave. It's that simple.
I can handle swearing, I am fine with it. I just think it is a bit pointless when it is effectively your whole response.
When you can respond in a mature and intelligent way, I will stop with the swearing. Do you see how this works?
If you look through all my responses all I have tried to do is address what you have written. If my responses are so bad than you should have no problem debunking them. If you think I have misinterpreted your arguments, why can't you say that?
That is how people can have a constructive debate and learn.
He really didnt do much with sin. No idea of it either. For example lets say you are god and your make 50 humans. One commits suicide. Did you create suicide? No. You just made the human who decided to create suicide. That is how sin works. He didnt do much with sin. He had to make a perfect being starting with his angels and the initial sinner Lucifer who is now Satan. Also the Christian God is just in all he does. If you are going to call him evil you must apply all of his personality traits as well. Which means that in him is no darkness at all. By that the acts he does are just and if he is alpha and omega he may have prevented mass murder or something radical. Who knows? He didn't invent sin he created humans in a perfect free will manner.
He really didnt do much with sin. No idea of it either.
I don't understand what you mean by the second part. If it is that God didn't know sin would enter the world than he isn't omniscient. Which is a key characteristic of the God most people believe in.
For example lets say you are god and your make 50 humans. One commits suicide. Did you create suicide? No.
I accept this maybe I should have said why did he create creatures with a tendency to sin. Which if he is omniscient and puts sinners in hell, works as an argument against him being all good.
He had to make a perfect being starting with his angels and the initial sinner Lucifer who is now Satan.
If a being is perfect how can they sin?
Also the Christian God is just in all he does. If you are going to call him evil you must apply all of his personality traits as well. Which means that in him is no darkness at all.
Just looking at the bible contradicts a so called 'good' God.
By that the acts he does are just and if he is alpha and omega he may have prevented mass murder or something radical. Who knows?
Yet he couldn't stop Hitler or Mao? Why create the people in the first place?
Also why doesn't God stop rapists, Murderers now?
Why did he stop the halocaust?
Why didn't he stop world war 2, in which over 50 million people died?
More people died in world war 2 than lived in the time Elisha allegedly lived. So wouldn't stopping world war 2 be worth Gods attention more?
He didn't invent sin he created humans in a perfect free will manner.
I'm not certain but it seems as if you are implying that sin is a consequence of free will. I have already agreed that I was wrong to say that he invented sin. However if I understood what you said correctly than God doesn't have free will, which again would go against the God many people believe in.
According to the Bible, God has done some pretty evil things that caused immense suffering, quite often out of spite. He also tends to favour not those that are actually good but rather those that are loyal to him.
God has made it clear that those who do evil He will destroy. Everyone is evil. The only thing that stops Him from destroying Christians is that Jesus took the punishment for us, instead of us. God has not done evil; God does not favor against those who do good because no one does good.
God does not favor against those who do good because no one does good.
There are clearly ways of doing ´good´. Such as obeying the commandents so good and evil is clearly recognised amongst humans and they can acheve either. In the end though it doesn´t matter.
God has not done evil
If you say that everything that God does is, by definition, good then of course God does no evil. However, looking at what he has done from an objective moral view point he has done evil. Flooding the whole world because he was displeased with it was evil. Killing all the egyptian first borns was evil. There are many more examples too.
There are clearly ways of doing ´good´. Such as obeying the commandents so good and evil is clearly recognised amongst humans and they can acheve either. In the end though it doesn´t matter.
Even when we obey the commandments and not do evil, we are still doing them not to the perfection of God, which is sin.
If you say that everything that God does is, by definition, good then of course God does no evil. However, looking at what he has done from an objective moral view point he has done evil. Flooding the whole world because he was displeased with it was evil. Killing all the egyptian first borns was evil. There are many more examples too.
Flooding the world because everyone on it was evil: that is pretty moral if God is the ultimate judge and punisher. Filling all the egyptian first born children: that is pretty moral if God is the ultimate judge and punisher. It seems to me that you have a problem with justice and punishment, from an objective standpoint, which is illogical.
Even when we obey the commandments and not do evil, we are still doing them not to the perfection of God, which is sin.
what a fucking retarded system your god has created. Thats like judging a kindergardener because he cannot color as well as you can.
Flooding the world because everyone on it was evil: that is pretty moral if God is the ultimate judge and punisher. Filling all the egyptian first born children: that is pretty moral if God is the ultimate judge and punisher. It seems to me that you have a problem with justice and punishment, from an objective standpoint, which is illogical.
Objective means independent of your morally reprehensible state of mental retardation you call a religion. According to any human with a shred of morality those actions are evil. Thats all we need to know and all we should care about. Who gives a shit what your god thinks? Certainly nobody but you.
what a fucking retarded system your god has created. Thats like judging a kindergardener because he cannot color as well as you can.
Its not that He has set that standard; its that the standard to be in the presence of God requires perfection. If we are not perfect, then we are incapable of standing before Him. Therefore, anything that is below that perfection sends one to hell unless the perfectness has been transposed onto the imperfect being.
Objective means independent of your morally reprehensible state of mental retardation you call a religion. According to any human with a shred of morality those actions are evil. Thats all we need to know and all we should care about. Who gives a shit what your god thinks? Certainly nobody but you.
Objective morality cannot be found outside of religion. Therefore, to claim that those are actions are evil is to claim that there is a ultimate moral prescriber and, thus, a God. Your statement is logically contradictory. Now, for any who want to challenge me, I would like to clear up some things: from an atheistic worldview, there can only be moral relativism; ethical objectivism is necessary in an state.
Its not that He has set that standard; its that the standard to be in the presence of God requires perfection. If we are not perfect, then we are incapable of standing before Him. Therefore, anything that is below that perfection sends one to hell unless the perfectness has been transposed onto the imperfect being.
But apparently God WANTS us to "stand before him" so why doesnt he make that a little easier? Its practically unattainable for anyone ever.
And if everything we do is not good enough or "imperfect" as you say, then isnt our conversion to christianity and adherance to your god imperfect as well? Even if someone does exactly what you say will be good enough, technically since everything we do isnt good enough then we still wont make it. Even our acceptance of jesus isnt good enough. It makes no sense. Your god made a retarded system of complicated problems that he couldve fixed by just not acting like a child and forgiving something HE caused and HE knew would happen from day one. Your god is a imbicilic child and most absolutly certainly nonexistent.
Objective morality cannot be found outside of religion. Therefore, to claim that those are actions are evil is to claim that there is a ultimate moral prescriber and, thus, a God. Your statement is logically contradictory. Now, for any who want to challenge me, I would like to clear up some things: from an atheistic worldview, there can only be moral relativism; ethical objectivism is necessary in an state.
Not true. There are actually objective moral things that are ingrained in ALL of humanity. Things like do not kill, and common compassion. These things were subjective at one time but are now objective as they exist indepently from ones own mind. Theyre practically ingrained in everyone. Even some animals.
MOST morality is subjective however.
Youre wrong when you say that if there is ever something objective then it is automatically attributed to god. Theres no reason to believe that. It becomes objective when it becomes worldwide consensus.
And if everything we do is not good enough or "imperfect" as you say, then isnt our conversion to christianity and adherance to your god imperfect as well?
Yep.
Even our acceptance of jesus isnt good enough.
You are looking at it from an arminian perspective, which is not Biblical. God chooses us to believe. Faith is degraded also but that faith, no matter how small, has been picked for His elect to have. God chooses us; we do not choose Him. Moreover, our acceptance of Jesus in an arminian account becomes works based itself and should not be accepted as Biblical doctrine.
Not true. There are actually objective moral things that are ingrained in ALL of humanity. Things like do not kill, and common compassion. These things were subjective at one time but are now objective as they exist indepently from ones own mind. Theyre practically ingrained in everyone. Even some animals.
Sociopaths don't care if they kill people. Morality does not exist in objective if there is no God. I believe you have even said that in the past. Who decides what is moral without a God? The majority? Then it becomes mob rule. Mob rule, as Socrates pointed out, is usually wrong because most people don't know what they are talking about.
MOST morality is subjective however.
It all is if God is not real.
Youre wrong when you say that if there is ever something objective then it is automatically attributed to god. Theres no reason to believe that. It becomes objective when it becomes worldwide consensus.
Nothing has become a worldwide consensus in morality.
He wouldnt be worthy of licking the shit off my shoes let alone my worship. Simply based off the god of the bible, he's an immoral fuckbag who endorses evil and causes tragedy for kicks. He gets off from the smell of burning flesh, that should be a red flag.
Id rather go to hell than bow down before this malevolent, phantasmic representative of all things horrible and morally reprehensible from a 21st century perspective.
So if he makes himself known thats evil? I dont see how that makes any sense. If he came to deliver people from suffering and pain then how would he be evil?
And if god created the world, then he created pain and suffering, so there wouldn't be anything to save people from if there wasn't a god... Now THAT doesn't make any sense.
Create pain and suffering for people, then go save people from it... Mood swings, huh?
No , because that way the bible would be some random journal wrote in the different versions , and also if he really exists then he will be remembered as criminal, that's why he isn't .
